MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 4everwarriors on June 02, 2021, 12:24:23 PM
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after dis seeson. Nu landin' spot for Woj, aina?
edit: Helping ESL posters.
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Possible landing spot for any number of top coaches. Who's got next?
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Scheyer being the leader is crazy to me. Wojo has a better resume.
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Legendary Duke basketball coach Mike Krzyzewski to retire after 2021-22 season, per report
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SUPERBAR
First time, aina?
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Ignore my thread - 4ever beat me by milliseconds.
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Just in time for Brad to leave coaching for back office role with the Celtics... hmm
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Just in time for Brad to leave coaching for back office role with the Celtics... hmm
Not happening.
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Scheyer being the leader is crazy to me. Wojo has a better resume.
yeah...that shocks the he11 out of me...
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First Roy, now Coach K. I think the older guys don't want to live in a world where they have to re-recruit their guys every year. Can't be too tough on a lot of guys.
Or, he's just tired and has had enough.
At any rate, his legacy is secure. It will be very interesting where they pull their next coach from. You have to have a huge ego to want the job immediately after Coach K.
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Saw Theo eating a weight and decided he had enough.
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Coach K will only retire after he gets to coach Theo John.
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Once you've coached Theo, there is nowhere to go but down.
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yeah...that shocks the he11 out of me...
No idea why that would shock anyone. It was clear that he was going to pick his successor. And I don't think a lot of high level coaches are going to want to follow in his footsteps anyway. You want to be Scheyer's successor.
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Jon unnatural carnal knowledgeing Scheyer?
Dude can’t even spell Cat if you spotted him the C and the A.
This is gonna be great.
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Possible landing spot for any number of top coaches. Who's got next?
Scheyer being named the coach-in-waiting.
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Obviously I don't know Scheyer and he maybe great but this feels like Duke hitting the pause button before hiring a real coach. Plus Coach K is happy with his guy taking over.
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Once you've coached Theo, there is nowhere to go but down.
Bingo
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If Wojo was competent even in the least bit, this would have been his final year at MU anyway. Good riddance.
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If K is going to do the farewell tour thing, you kind of have to name a coach in waiting. So maybe Coach K handpicked him or maybe it was right place, right time.
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Wojo would tread water in that role, Scheyer will sink.
Should be fun!
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I just don't think you understand how hard it would be on a coach from outside "the family" going into a situation like Duke's immediately post Coach K. Any sort of slip up, and it would be very difficult for him.
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I just don't think you understand how hard it would be on a coach from outside "the family" going into a situation like Duke's immediately post Coach K. Any sort of slip up, and it would be very difficult for him.
That’s fair. But I also don’t know if Scheyer would make a top list of coaches in the family. Granted, K might see something in him and being on staff takes away a distraction.
I would think Capel would have been a better hire.
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Wojo would tread water in that role, Scheyer will sink.
Should be fun!
I'm not entirely sure. If you put Wojo in a situation where all those 5 stars he narrowly missed on suddenly come running it might've been enough talent to overcome his horrific coaching.
Either way It doesn't matter just my opinion.
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Dan Wolken
@DanWolken
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3m
I would say that Jon Scheyer, assuming he is the guy, has the worst job in college sports up until whoever replaces Nick Saban
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I'm not entirely sure. If you put Wojo in a situation where all those 5 stars he narrowly missed on suddenly come running it might've been enough talent to overcome his horrific coaching.
Either way It doesn't matter just my opinion.
Wojo would definitely keep the talent pool stocked at Duke. But to be fair, Scheyer and Capel probably can too.
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Dan Wolken
@DanWolken
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3m
I would say that Jon Scheyer, assuming he is the guy, has the worst job in college sports up until whoever replaces Nick Saban
Even if he fails miserably, he'll make enough money to never have to work again if he wants to after his one contract. I'd take that over grinding it out in some Chicago State type job in a heartbeat.
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<sigh>
Clearly hyperbole to show that its not the attractive job people think it would be.
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Scheyer being named the coach-in-waiting.
Thought this was Wojos gig. Guess his abysmal job at MU nixed that. How dare they name Scherer the replacement. What a dis on Wojo-Dukiet
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Scheyer makes a lot of sense, just as Gard did at UW. You replace a long-time successful coach with someone from the inside having little-to-no expectations and no previous coaching failures for fans to complain about. Capel doesn't have that, nor does Wojo (obviously).
If Scheyer works out, great, they're geniuses. If he doesn't, they'll know within a year or two and will move on with a big splash hire from the outside that's one step further from K's shadow.
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Scheyer makes a lot of sense, just as Gard did at UW. You replace a long-time successful coach with someone from the inside having little-to-no expectations and no previous coaching failures for fans to complain about. Capel doesn't have that, nor does Wojo (obviously).
If Scheyer works out, great, they're geniuses. If he doesn't, they'll know within a year or two and will move on with a big splash hire from the outside that's one step further from K's shadow.
Well done, Skip. Outstanding comment.
I love how so many people "know" that Scheyer will be bad. Maybe he will be Wojo (or worse than Wojo, as if it's possible to be worse than The Worst Coach In Basketball History) ... or maybe he'll be Roy Williams, who went from longtime assistant to being a great head coach in his own right. Or, more likely, he'll be somewhere in between those extremes.
Either way, as you said, Scheyer makes a lot of sense. The thing that surprises me most is that some folks are surprised by this.
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Any recruits we can poach?
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Call me cynical, but I think Coach K picked a bad replacement on purpose.
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Call me cynical, but I think Coach K picked a bad replacement on purpose.
+1
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Why would he pick a bad replacement on purpose? His legacy would be strengthened if he picks someone who succeeds.
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Scheyer makes a lot of sense, just as Gard did at UW. You replace a long-time successful coach with someone from the inside having little-to-no expectations and no previous coaching failures for fans to complain about. Capel doesn't have that, nor does Wojo (obviously).
If Scheyer works out, great, they're geniuses. If he doesn't, they'll know within a year or two and will move on with a big splash hire from the outside that's one step further from K's shadow.
I agree, at this point Jon makes the most sense to me. I remember years ago when the point guard went down, Jon spent the summer learning the point. IIRC the next year they were NCAA Champs.
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Why would he pick a bad replacement on purpose? His legacy would be strengthened if he picks someone who succeeds.
See how hard it is to win at this tiny little school. I am a coaching genius, wait, I am THE Coaching genius.
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See how hard it is to win at this tiny little school. I am a coaching genius, wait, I am THE Coaching genius.
So the winningest coach in NCAA history, with 5 national championships, 12 final fours, and a slew of conference championships over the course of 40 years is scared that he would be overshadowed by his successor? That's strange.
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Call me cynical, but I think Coach K picked a bad replacement on purpose.
You are cynical.
I'd say overly so, but at least you're owning it.
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So the winningest coach in NCAA history, with 5 national championships, 12 final fours, and a slew of conference championships over the course of 40 years is scared that he would be overshadowed by his successor?
Yes, that is my cynical opinion.
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See how hard it is to win at this tiny little school. I am a coaching genius, wait, I am THE Coaching genius.
yeah, because if Scheyer does well suddenly people are going to change their opinions on K and his career. SMH.
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Well done, Skip. Outstanding comment.
I love how so many people "know" that Scheyer will be bad. Maybe he will be Wojo (or worse than Wojo, as if it's possible to be worse than The Worst Coach In Basketball History) ... or maybe he'll be Roy Williams, who went from longtime assistant to being a great head coach in his own right. Or, more likely, he'll be somewhere in between those extremes.
Either way, as you said, Scheyer makes a lot of sense. The thing that surprises me most is that some folks are surprised by this.
Scheyer has been an assistant at Duke for 6 years. Under a notorious control freak who has an exceptionally mediocre coaching tree given the program.
Roy Williams was a HS coach for 5-6 years and then a decade under Dean Smith, who had a reputation for spinning out great coaches under his tutelage.
Scheyer may turn out to be a great coach, but calling him a longtime assistant, much less a similar situation going into this job as Roy Williams, is apples to oranges IMO.
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Man how some people can actually believe that K picked a weak link because he wanted to preserve his legacy
Others point out that his resume is overwhelming. Outside of Wooden, the best in history. And maybe better than Wooden. Unless somebody wants to make the case for Wojo-Dukiet
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Hiring Sheyer is a bit of a joke
Coach Ks coaching “ tree “ is terrible
( either disasters or mediocrity) Sheyer is really the only one not to fail, cuz he has not had a chance
I say this lasts 2 to 3 years ... max.
But good riddance to K. Cannot stand the man
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Scheyer has been an assistant at Duke for 6 years. Under a notorious control freak who has an exceptionally mediocre coaching tree given the program.
Roy Williams was a HS coach for 5-6 years and then a decade under Dean Smith, who had a reputation for spinning out great coaches under his tutelage.
Scheyer may turn out to be a great coach, but calling him a longtime assistant, much less a similar situation going into this job as Roy Williams, is apples to oranges IMO.
Next season will be Scheyer's 8th on K's bench, his 7th as full assistant (which he became after spending 2013-14 as "special assistant"), and his 4th as associate head coach. That after a 4-year playing career learning under K and his assistants, the last of which where he learned how to be a PG and became the proverbial "coach on the floor" for a national championship team.
Whether 8 years qualifies as "longtime" is a matter of semantics. You are correct that he has zero head coaching experience at any level, and that's almost surely not a good thing. You also are correct that K has not been a groomer of great coaches.
Scheyer might end up being a horrible, horrible coach. Or he might be end up being very good. We'll see! The one thing we all know is that nobody knows. We do all have opinions, though.
I'd be surprised if he is a huge success, but I'd say that about anybody who takes over for the legend.
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Call me cynical, but I think Coach K picked a bad replacement on purpose.
So if the options, as reported, we're Dawkins, Amaker, Wojo, Collins, and Scheyer... All those guys but Jon would probably be done as head coaches if they flamed out at Duke after mediocre results in prior gigs. I do wonder if that played into the thought process at all.
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He's a bit of a career journeyman, and I doubt that he'd give up his NBA gig, but it sure seems convenient that the folks here that think that Coach K has a less than stellar coaching tree are omitting the coach of the team with the best record in the NBA this season... Just saying.
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He's a bit of a career journeyman, and I doubt that he'd give up his NBA gig, but it sure seems convenient that the folks here that think that Coach K has a less than stellar coaching tree are omitting the coach of the team with the best record in the NBA this season... Just saying.
because it's hard to overlook his snorting, er, flaming out at Missouri.
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He's a bit of a career journeyman, and I doubt that he'd give up his NBA gig, but it sure seems convenient that the folks here that think that Coach K has a less than stellar coaching tree are omitting the coach of the team with the best record in the NBA this season... Just saying.
Good catch.
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because it's hard to overlook his snorting, er, flaming out at Missouri.
Kinda missed the point completely but okay.
I was not advocating for Synder to be a candidate, or get the job (although Duke would 100% take him and overlook his ...transgressions... from 15 years ago considering his resume since) I even said that he wouldn't want it. But, a significant portion of people here, when looking at the K coaching tree, are pretty much blinded by the one name that patrolled our sideline. There are better options out there than Scheyer IMO, but there's no way that K wasn't going to be able to name who he wanted, and I guess Jon is that guy.
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Kinda missed the point completely but okay.
I was not advocating for Synder to be a candidate, or get the job (although Duke would 100% take him and overlook his ...transgressions... from 15 years ago considering his resume since) I even said that he wouldn't want it. But, a significant portion of people here, when looking at the K coaching tree, are pretty much blinded by the one name that patrolled our sideline. There are better options out there than Scheyer IMO, but there's no way that K wasn't going to be able to name who he wanted, and I guess Jon is that guy.
Duke wouldn’t take Snyder right now. They are hiring the guy they want.
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Duke wouldn’t take Snyder right now. They are hiring the guy they want.
Duke are hiring the guy K wants. If K wanted Snyder and Snyder wanted K's (now former job), it would have happened.
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But, a significant portion of people here, when looking at the K coaching tree, are pretty much blinded by the one name that patrolled our sideline.
I disagree with this. Yes, Snyder found success. Brey did as well, but they are the minority.
Tommy Amaker had decidedly mediocre results, going to 1 NCAA tournament in 10 high major seasons before finding his level at Harvard, where he's been good but not great. Johnny Dawkins had 1 bid in 8 years at Stanford before going to 1 in 5 at UCF. He's been a bad coach. Similar to Chris Collins, who did get Northwestern a NCAA bid in year 4 but followed it with 4 straight losing seasons. Bobby Hurley's success at Buffalo is starting to look like more a product of Nate Oats on the sideline as Hurley has just 2 bids in 6 years at ASU, continually underachieving projections.
Honestly, Wojo is one of the most successful K products. All told, K assistants have a .539 winning percentage (a number Wojo has bested) and 28 NCAA wins in 147 combined seasons. What should've been 3 NCAA bids in 7 seasons is better than the average K assistant. Considering Wojo is one of the best of a bad lot, the only way anyone here is blinded is if they somehow believe Wojo was blindingly brilliant, because K's other proteges are generally even worse.
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I disagree with this. Yes, Snyder found success. Brey did as well, but they are the minority.
So it sounds like you agree with me that there are better options out there than Scheyer from the K coaching tree, but Scheyer is clearly the guy K wants, which is why he has the job.
Every coaching tree is going to have good and bad "branches". A tree as extensive as K's is, is naturally going to have more misses than hits, as programs are more likely to take a chance on his assistants, hoping that the guy they chose is "the next K".
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I disagree with this. Yes, Snyder found success. Brey did as well, but they are the minority.
Chalking up Snyder’s success to Coach K is a stretch in my opinion. He was decent at Mizzou. Had one good year in the tourney, never finished better than T-5 in conference, and was trending down hard before he flamed out. He had almost a decade in the coaching wilderness including time under Bud, Doug Collins, and the best European coach of all time (Messina) in Moscow. That’s what’s turned him into a great NBA coach, not spending time under someone who has not experience with the NBA game as a coach 20+ years ago.
If Stan gets canned at LMU and goes to AC in the G League and NBA benches before popping up and being a really successful coach of the Hornets in 2030. I won’t say it’s a product of what he learned and groomed under Wojo
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So it sounds like you agree with me that there are better options out there than Scheyer from the K coaching tree, but Scheyer is clearly the guy K wants, which is why he has the job.
Every coaching tree is going to have good and bad "branches". A tree as extensive as K's is, is naturally going to have more misses than hits, as programs are more likely to take a chance on his assistants, hoping that the guy they chose is "the next K".
We have no idea if they are better options.
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Call me cynical, but I think Coach K picked a bad replacement on purpose.
+1 the first thing that came to mind for me as well
goose? doc?
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We have no idea if they are better options.
::) ::) ::)
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Good move for K . The new world of having to re-recruit is for young guys with energy .
Roy and K both got out while the gettin was good.
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What Wags said on Quinn. He went to Pop U among other places for his Hoops PhD.
I don’t think K picked a bad successor on purpose, I just think he felt entitled to pick his successor and JS was the cleanest of his true “tree”.
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Chalking up Snyder’s success to Coach K is a stretch in my opinion. He was decent at Mizzou. Had one good year in the tourney, never finished better than T-5 in conference, and was trending down hard before he flamed out. He had almost a decade in the coaching wilderness including time under Bud, Doug Collins, and the best European coach of all time (Messina) in Moscow. That’s what’s turned him into a great NBA coach, not spending time under someone who has not experience with the NBA game as a coach 20+ years ago.
If Stan gets canned at LMU and goes to AC in the G League and NBA benches before popping up and being a really successful coach of the Hornets in 2030. I won’t say it’s a product of what he learned and groomed under Wojo
Agreed. K has a poor coaching tree. Aside from Brey, who has left K's side and gone on to sustained success? No one. After more than 4 decades in the game, you'd think someone would've at least lucked into a solid career, but there's next to nothing. The only reason Scheyer is getting this job is because he hasn't been anywhere to get exposed yet the way Wojo, Dawkins, Collins, and others have.
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Agreed. K has a poor coaching tree. Aside from Brey, who has left K's side and gone on to sustained success? No one. After more than 4 decades in the game, you'd think someone would've at least lucked into a solid career, but there's next to nothing. The only reason Scheyer is getting this job is because he hasn't been anywhere to get exposed yet the way Wojo, Dawkins, Collins, and others have.
Agree with all of this, including your conclusion ... and yet that STILL doesn’t automatically mean Scheyer will fail, as so many believe.
Maybe he’ll be the next Brey.
Or maybe he WILL be awful.
The beautiful thing is we actually will get to see!
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What Duke did with Coach Scheyer is done throughout college basketball.
When Dean Smith retired, Bill Guthridge, his long-time and trusted assistant took over. Guthridge lasted a few years until it became apparent he was not going to sustain long-term success at UNC.
When Al McGuire retired, Hank Raymonds, his long-time assistant took over. It was an unmitigated disaster highlighted by a horrible loss to Miami of Ohio, an inability to recruit and the beginning of a slow slide into mediocrity.
When Bo Ryan retired, UW-Platteville's finest, Greg Gard took over. We'll see.
Everyone of these cases were situations where a nationwide search could have found a better, more qualified candidate to become head coach. Our situation was especially galling because we were defending national champions and probably could have had anyone not named Dean Smith or Bobby Knight at the time. But schools are loyal, sometimes to a fault.
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Agree with all of this, including your conclusion ... and yet that STILL doesn’t automatically mean Scheyer will fail, as so many believe.
Maybe he’ll be the next Brey.
Or maybe he WILL be awful.
The beautiful thing is we actually will get to see!
Isn't the whole point of summer on a basketball message board to talk recruiting, TBT, and projections of hypothetical futures? Talking about why Jon Scheyer will suck is pretty much why we log on this time of year.
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The program is not best served by allowing Coach K to pick his own successor, as he will want one of his own.
IMO, they should look beyond the program ( but they probably won’t)......seldom works out where a legend is followed from within . Much bigger selection universe out there to choose from. Better odds.
Existing Duke coaching tree mediocre.
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Call me cynical, but I think Coach K picked a bad replacement on purpose.
I think its narcissism more than anything, which I have always felt he passed along to some of his players as well. He couldn't watch another coach without ties to him do well at his school.
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::) ::) ::)
We have no idea if Snyder would be a good coach returning to college. We have no idea if that was an even an option considered by Duke OR by Snyder.
Put it this way, if Snyder was interested, they STILL would have picked Scheyer.
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The program is not best served by allowing Coach K to pick his own successor, as he will want one of his own.
IMO, they should look beyond the program ( but they probably won’t)......seldom works out where a legend is followed from within . Much bigger selection universe out there to choose from. Better odds.
Existing Duke coaching tree mediocre.
Who do you think would be interested in the Duke job? We go through this whenever there is a blue blood opening. Proven, top-level coaches rarely leave for other jobs. The last one was....Roy Williams? The idea that Duke would have their pick of top level coaches just isn't accurate IMO.
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I think its narcissism more than anything, which I have always felt he passed along to some of his players as well. He couldn't watch another coach without ties to him do well at his school.
Agree. The last thing a legend with a K size ego wants is an outsider coming in and outdoing him. Pretty unlikely given K’s accomplishments but it happened to ole Roy at Kansas.
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Agree. The last thing a legend with a K size ego wants is an outsider coming in and outdoing him. Pretty unlikely given K’s accomplishments but it happened to ole Roy at Kansas.
Coach K is plenty egotistical and narcissistic. But a retiring, successful coach lobbying for his assistant is hardly new. John Wooden, Dean Smith, Al McGuire, Dick Bennett, Bo Ryan, etc. all did the same thing.
I just think the idea that he intentionally chose a bad candidate because he didn't want someone to overshadow his accomplishments is silly. Dean Smith recruited Roy Williams to UNC after Doherty failed because having a former assistant succeed after him enhanced his legacy.
Do you think Jud Heathcote was upset that Tom Izzo accomplished more than he did? Or was he proud that his protege climbed higher? How about Rollie Massamino and Jay Wright? My guess is the pride they had in their former assistant's accomplishments was enormous.
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He's a bit of a career journeyman, and I doubt that he'd give up his NBA gig, but it sure seems convenient that the folks here that think that Coach K has a less than stellar coaching tree are omitting the coach of the team with the best record in the NBA this season... Just saying.
Snyder is actually a great example, he bounced around and got his ass handed to him multiple times, learned from failure and broad experience. I think Wojo could use a little of that before trying again at a major gig (as could almost anyone).
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Snyder is actually a great example, he bounced around and got his ass handed to him multiple times, learned from failure and broad experience. I think Wojo could use a little of that before trying again at a major gig (as could almost anyone).
Wojo getting some time on NBA benches as an assistant could make him an appealing option for Duke in 4-5 years when I imagine they'll pull the plug on Scheyer.
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Wojo getting some time on NBA benches as an assistant could make him an appealing option for Duke in 4-5 years when I imagine they'll pull the plug on Scheyer.
Yes
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We have no idea if Snyder would be a good coach returning to college. We have no idea if that was an even an option considered by Duke OR by Snyder.
Put it this way, if Snyder was interested, they STILL would have picked Scheyer.
wE hAvE nO iDEa wHaT tHeY wOuLD dO.
K is the most powerful person on that campus. Even after he leaves his presence will loom over the University and more importantly the basketball program (see Gtown the last 20 years post Big John). If K wanted Snyder, the University would have at least made a run at him. Again, I doubt he would give up his NBA gig, but the point remains that K says jump and the University says how high. Scheyer is the coach because K wants it. If the University wanted it as well (personally doubt it) then that's just a happy coincidence for the University.
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Isn't the whole point of summer on a basketball message board to talk recruiting, TBT, and projections of hypothetical futures? Talking about why Jon Scheyer will suck is pretty much why we log on this time of year.
Yessir, that's true.
I once saw Scheyer score 49 at Glenbrook North. He woulda had 50+ ... but he missed a dunk. Shoulda called Ners for advice before the game.
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Coach K is plenty egotistical and narcissistic. But a retiring, successful coach lobbying for his assistant is hardly new. John Wooden, Dean Smith, Al McGuire, Dick Bennett, Bo Ryan, etc. all did the same thing.
I just think the idea that he intentionally chose a bad candidate because he didn't want someone to overshadow his accomplishments is silly. Dean Smith recruited Roy Williams to UNC after Doherty failed because having a former assistant succeed after him enhanced his legacy.
Do you think Jud Heathcote was upset that Tom Izzo accomplished more than he did? Or was he proud that his protege climbed higher? How about Rollie Massamino and Jay Wright? My guess is the pride they had in their former assistant's accomplishments was enormous.
Guess you missed the word “outsider” in my post. In the one in a million chance that Scheyer picks up where K left off and equals or surpasses his accomplishments (like Izzo or Wright) I don’t know how K would feel. My guess is mixed emotions. But if an outsider did it (like Self at Kansas) I don’t think K would like it even a little. He won’t take that chance. Hence his anointment of an assistant who on the face of it appears unqualified for the job.
I’m not suggesting that K’s amazing legacy isn’t pretty much set in stone. Just that Scheyer’s performance (either success or failure) can only enhance it. An ultra successful outsider could (only very, very slightly) diminish it. (See Bill Self). K doesn’t seem to me the kind of guy who would take that admittedly small chance. Just my opinion.
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wE hAvE nO iDEa wHaT tHeY wOuLD dO.
K is the most powerful person on that campus. Even after he leaves his presence will loom over the University and more importantly the basketball program (see Gtown the last 20 years post Big John). If K wanted Snyder, the University would have at least made a run at him. Again, I doubt he would give up his NBA gig, but the point remains that K says jump and the University says how high. Scheyer is the coach because K wants it. If the University wanted it as well (personally doubt it) then that's just a happy coincidence for the University.
The University defered to what Coach K wanted. Claiming that "the University" (which like any organization isn't a monolith but a bunch of individuals) would have wanted something different is both unproveable and irrelevant.
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Guess you missed the word “outsider” in my post. In the one in a million chance that Scheyer picks up where K left off and equals or surpasses his accomplishments (like Izzo or Wright) I don’t know how K would feel. My guess is mixed emotions. But if an outsider did it (like Self at Kansas) I don’t think K would like it even a little. He won’t take that chance. Hence his anointment of an assistant who on the face of it appears unqualified for the job.
I’m not suggesting that K’s amazing legacy isn’t pretty much set in stone. Just that Scheyer’s performance (either success or failure) can only enhance it. An ultra successful outsider could (only very, very slightly) diminish it. (See Bill Self). K doesn’t seem to me the kind of guy who would take that admittedly small chance. Just my opinion.
How is Scheyer "unqualified" for the job? Seven years as an assistant isn't enough? Coach K was an assistant for one year before getting the Army gig, and was their five seasons before going to Duke.
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rocket
It would not be the first time a legend picked a poor replacement, possibly to enhance their legacy. I'm still upset Denny Crum was not hired at MU.
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The University defered to what Coach K wanted. Claiming that "the University" (which like any organization isn't a monolith but a bunch of individuals) would have wanted something different is both unproveable and irrelevant.
As is the reciprocal. Of course no University is going to come out and say that they all just do exactly what he wants. We're all just guys banging away our theories behind a keyboard.
The two points that I have been trying to get across are that (1). K's coaching tree is not as bad as some here claim. Is Snyder's success solely because of the decade he spent under K? Of course not. Is he still a part of the K Coaching tree? Absolutely. and (2), when it comes to Duke, K gets what K wants. Is there ever going to be any specific evidence that says Scheyer only got the job because K said so? Probably not. Is there a bunch of evidence over the last decades that suggests that K pretty much always gets his way? Yes there is.
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Scheyer: All-American player and national champion Duke; grad assistant 1 year Duke; assistant 8 years Duke.
Crean: Never played college basketball; grad assistant 1 year MSU; assistant 4 years W Ky; assistant 1 year Pitt; assistant 4 years MSU.
For better or worse, Scheyer is about as "qualified" for the Duke job as Crean was for the Marquette job.
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How is Scheyer "unqualified" for the job? Seven years as an assistant isn't enough? Coach K was an assistant for one year before getting the Army gig, and was their five seasons before going to Duke.
I think you answered your own question.
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Were people saying the hiring of the "unqualified" Hubert Davis at UNC was part of a sinister plot by Roy Williams to preserve his legacy?
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Scheyer: All-American player and national champion Duke; grad assistant 1 year Duke; assistant 8 years Duke.
Crean: Never played college basketball; grad assistant 1 year MSU; assistant 4 years W Ky; assistant 1 year Pitt; assistant 4 years MSU.
For better or worse, Scheyer is about as "qualified" for the Duke job as Crean was for the Marquette job.
With all due respect to my beloved alma mater, the Duke job is a much better job than Marquette and it would be very reasonable for them to seek much higher "qualifications" than Marquette. Programs like Marquette often hire first-time head coaches. Programs like Duke don't.
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How is Scheyer "unqualified" for the job? Seven years as an assistant isn't enough? Coach K was an assistant for one year before getting the Army gig, and was their five seasons before going to Duke.
While I think Scheyer is qualified on paper, clearly he was in the mix for St. John's and DePaul in recent years, I just don't expect him to be successful based on the past history of individuals like him in head coaching gigs. Collins, Dawkins, Amaker, and Capel have been mediocre. That Wojo is one of the most successful branches off the K coaching tree is pretty underwhelming.
I'm not sure who they could've gotten had they opened up the search more, and I imagine part of the timing is to make sure that K got to both get his farewell tour and name his successor, but Scheyer feels like a stopgap measure to set up a big hire in 4-5 years.
Ultimately, I think the jobs that view themselves as blue bloods go one of two routes: someone truly proven and ready with a track record of success or someone "in the family." Kansas and Kentucky last went proven and ready with Self and Calipari (and Texas with Beard, I would argue) whereas UNC and Duke went in the family with Davis and Scheyer. I suppose going in the family saves the kind of embarrassment these programs sometimes end up with, such as how Indiana and UCLA looked to be settling on candidates far below their original targets (though Woodson and Cronin could both work out well). I guess this move lets Duke save face by not having to acknowledge Stevens turned them down while being better prepared for a big search if Scheyer does indeed fail. And if he wins 25+ every year, they look like geniuses.
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While I think Scheyer is qualified on paper, clearly he was in the mix for St. John's and DePaul in recent years, I just don't expect him to be successful based on the past history of individuals like him in head coaching gigs. Collins, Dawkins, Amaker, and Capel have been mediocre. That Wojo is one of the most successful branches off the K coaching tree is pretty underwhelming.
I'm not sure who they could've gotten had they opened up the search more, and I imagine part of the timing is to make sure that K got to both get his farewell tour and name his successor, but Scheyer feels like a stopgap measure to set up a big hire in 4-5 years.
Ultimately, I think the jobs that view themselves as blue bloods go one of two routes: someone truly proven and ready with a track record of success or someone "in the family." Kansas and Kentucky last went proven and ready with Self and Calipari (and Texas with Beard, I would argue) whereas UNC and Duke went in the family with Davis and Scheyer. I suppose going in the family saves the kind of embarrassment these programs sometimes end up with, such as how Indiana and UCLA looked to be settling on candidates far below their original targets (though Woodson and Cronin could both work out well). I guess this move lets Duke save face by not having to acknowledge Stevens turned them down while being better prepared for a big search if Scheyer does indeed fail. And if he wins 25+ every year, they look like geniuses.
Right. I mean, I don't think he will reach anywhere near the levels of Coach K success, and my guess is that he will not be there in five years, but that doesn't mean he was unqualified by any means.
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While I think Scheyer is qualified on paper, clearly he was in the mix for St. John's and DePaul in recent years, I just don't expect him to be successful based on the past history of individuals like him in head coaching gigs. Collins, Dawkins, Amaker, and Capel have been mediocre. That Wojo is one of the most successful branches off the K coaching tree is pretty underwhelming.
the difference is those guys had to go out on their own without the draw of Duke and all of the advantages that come with it. Duke is Duke, they are the most attractive hoops program in the nation. Kids want to go there. My friend's old teammate's kid is headed there despite his parents alma mater (where they both played) being in his back yard and some fishy stuff going on that pissed off mom. In the end "you can't say no to Duke." Scheyer is still going to have that. Those who went out on their own didn't.
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With all due respect to my beloved alma mater, the Duke job is a much better job than Marquette and it would be very reasonable for them to seek much higher "qualifications" than Marquette. Programs like Marquette often hire first-time head coaches. Programs like Duke don't.
Reasonable.
Of course, Duke's previous hire was a no-name whose last season at Army produced a 9-17 record.
And as Pakuni just pointed out, a "program like Duke" -- North Carolina -- just hired an inexperienced former player/assistant.
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Boeheim is next, right after Buddy leaves.
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Boeheim is next, right after Buddy leaves.
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Syracuse’s Jim Boeheim Not Retiring Anytime Soon, May Coach Until He’s 80 via @forbes
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With all due respect to my beloved alma mater, the Duke job is a much better job than Marquette and it would be very reasonable for them to seek much higher "qualifications" than Marquette. Programs like Marquette often hire first-time head coaches. Programs like Duke don't.
Exactly. For programs who generally have to settle for assistant coaches (like Marquette) Scheyer is borderline qualified. But would he be considered “qualified” at an Illinois, Ohio St or Indiana? No way. Are those programs on a level that much higher than Duke?
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Exactly. For programs who generally have to settle for assistant coaches (like Marquette) Scheyer is borderline qualified. But would he be considered “qualified” at an Illinois, Ohio St or Indiana? No way. Are those programs on a level that much higher than Duke?
Just because they can attract higher quality candidates, that doesn't mean the selected candidate is "unqualified." Promoting an assistant has been done at plenty of places that may have been able to attract a higher level coach.
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Just because they can attract higher quality candidates, that doesn't mean the selected candidate is "unqualified." Promoting an assistant has been done at plenty of places that may have been able to attract a higher level coach.
For the record, I'm not among the crowd saying he is unqualified. I was merely pointing out that some high profile programs have the ability to seek and attract higher qualified candidates -- even if they opt to stay within the family and hire someone with lesser qualifications.
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Marquette just hired the former head coach of Texas, a 44 year old who has already been to a Final Four. He seems fairly qualified to me?
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Exactly. For programs who generally have to settle for assistant coaches (like Marquette) Scheyer is borderline qualified. But would he be considered “qualified” at an Illinois, Ohio St or Indiana? No way. Are those programs on a level that much higher than Duke?
I think you really need to account for the fact the assistant in this case is an assistant at the school where he's being hired, and that makes a huge difference.
Would Hubert Davis be considered qualified for Kentucky or Kansas?
Would Mark Adams have been considered for any top 40 program other than Texas Tech?
Mike Davis at IU? Rick Majerus at MU?
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Right. I mean, I don't think he will reach anywhere near the levels of Coach K success, and my guess is that he will not be there in five years, but that doesn't mean he was unqualified by any means.
It's fun to banter on this one, and I understand both sides, but to play devil's advocate... You don't think he will last, but you do feel he's qualified is interesting...when we hire people we rarely say "Well he likely won't make it 5 years but he has a few years of experience working under the person he's replacing so lets give him a shot." So my head goes to a place where either they see something special in John (which they keep pointing to his recruiting as if recruiting to play for Coach K is same as recruiting to play for John), or Coach K. forced this and they went along with it. UNC and Duke are both in trouble, IMHO... I would also argue that from the little I know about John, he is unqualified to run a program with the expectations, media, fan base, etc... that Duke has...but perhaps that's some bias towards his age and variety of experiences.
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Duke doing the coaching change properly by announcing successor now. All kids being recruited from this point forward know they will be playing for new coach.
I think Scheyer will put together some good recruiting classes . The questions will be :can he game coach and what roster management skills he has . As we have seen countless times, there is no substitute for head coaching experience.
Overall I am delighted to see K go. One less very talented coach out there that will hoard all the good talent.
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It's fun to banter on this one, and I understand both sides, but to play devil's advocate... You don't think he will last, but you do feel he's qualified is interesting...when we hire people we rarely say "Well he likely won't make it 5 years but he has a few years of experience working under the person he's replacing so lets give him a shot." So my head goes to a place where either they see something special in John (which they keep pointing to his recruiting as if recruiting to play for Coach K is same as recruiting to play for John), or Coach K. forced this and they went along with it. UNC and Duke are both in trouble, IMHO... I would also argue that from the little I know about John, he is unqualified to run a program with the expectations, media, fan base, etc... that Duke has...but perhaps that's some bias towards his age and variety of experiences.
He is qualified on paper. But most coaches are fired and I think he will be as well. That doesn't mean they weren't qualified when they were fired. I mean, Wojo was qualified right?
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I wonder how Nate James feels about all this?
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He is qualified on paper. But most coaches are fired and I think he will be as well. That doesn't mean they weren't qualified when they were fired. I mean, Wojo was qualified right?
Scheyer will probably get two seasons to prove that he can keep things moving - this isn't a rebuild or complete reinvention, they're just passing the baton. Getting time to recruit "his guys" or implementing "his system" doesn't really apply here. If he isn't finishing top 4 in the ACC and getting a decent seed in the tourney by his second season, I'm willing to bet Duke moves on.
On the flip side, maybe Scheyer is the one guy who can keep things ticking in the Duke way, and his youth could be seen as a huge advantage in the current recruiting environment. Coaches like Boeheim and Roy Williams bemoaning the reality of more transfers just proves that they're out of touch with the guys they're recruiting. Scheyer will be, what, 34 when he takes over? He probably won't have the same crusty mentality.
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Scheyer will probably get two seasons to prove that he can keep things moving - this isn't a rebuild or complete reinvention, they're just passing the baton. Getting time to recruit "his guys" or implementing "his system" doesn't really apply here. If he isn't finishing top 4 in the ACC and getting a decent seed in the tourney by his second season, I'm willing to bet Duke moves on.
On the flip side, maybe Scheyer is the one guy who can keep things ticking in the Duke way, and his youth could be seen as a huge advantage in the current recruiting environment. Coaches like Boeheim and Roy Williams bemoaning the reality of more transfers just proves that they're out of touch with the guys they're recruiting. Scheyer will be, what, 34 when he takes over? He probably won't have the same crusty mentality.
Exactly.
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I wonder how Nate James feels about all this?
Probably like a guy who moved on because he knew he wasn't getting the gig.
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How happy would MU fans be if MU hired Scheyer? How impressed would the nation (media and fans) be if MU hired Scheyer?
If Scheyer turnss out to be great, I'll be pissed at Coach K for recommending Wojo over Scheyer.
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How happy would MU fans be if MU hired Scheyer? How impressed would the nation (media and fans) be if MU hired Scheyer?
If Scheyer turnss out to be great, I'll be pissed at Coach K for recommending Wojo over Scheyer.
Scheyer took Wojo's spot when he came to MU so...
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If Scheyer turnss out to be great, I'll be pissed at Coach K for recommending Wojo over Scheyer.
Scheyer wasn't coaching when Marquette hired Wojo.
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If Scheyer turnss out to be great, I'll be pissed at Coach K for recommending Wojo over Scheyer.
I'm gonna give you credit for sarcasm here ... because I'm pretty sure you know that Scheyer was a kid who was still hoping to have a playing career when Buzz left Marquette.
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I'm gonna give you credit for sarcasm here ... because I'm pretty sure you know that Scheyer was a kid who was still hoping to have a playing career when Buzz left Marquette.
It was sarcasm. Should have used teal. My bad.
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He is qualified on paper. But most coaches are fired and I think he will be as well. That doesn't mean they weren't qualified when they were fired. I mean, Wojo was qualified right?
Not like Shaka was...but just as much or more so than Buzz. Obviously, it can work...but if I'm a Duke fan I would have wanted 20 guys before Scheyer...and I'm praying that Duke believes they have a unicorn.
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Just because they can attract higher quality candidates, that doesn't mean the selected candidate is "unqualified." Promoting an assistant has been done at plenty of places that may have been able to attract a higher level coach.
True. But just as a student might be qualified to attend Marquette or UW but not Duke, so a coach who might be qualified to take over Marquette or UW but not Duke. IMO.
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This thread has revealed nothing about coach k and a lot about the people who assume different things about the way he thinks.
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Probably like a guy who moved on because he knew he wasn't getting the gig.
Could be but Nate is more qualified on paper, same title with a promotion. Three Natty rings. <shrug>
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This thread has revealed nothing about coach k and a lot about the people who assume different things about the way he thinks.
I stand corrected. Coach K is a Saint, his program is squeaky clean, and he would never do anything to undermine the school to further his own legacy.
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if wojo stayed at duke does he grt the job instead of scheyer
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if wojo stayed at duke does he grt the job instead of scheyer
Probably
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if wojo stayed at duke does he grt the job instead of scheyer
I would think so, he took him to help coach NBA players.
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if wojo stayed at duke does he grt the job instead of scheyer
Yes he does. Hindsight is 20/20 though.
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This thread has revealed nothing about coach k and a lot about the people who assume different things about the way he thinks.
People don’t like Coach K because they’re jealous at how wildly successful he is, first and foremost. Is he a whiner and windbag at times? Absolutely, but no one would care if he wasn’t one of the greatest to ever coach.
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People don’t like Coach K because they’re jealous at how wildly successful he is, first and foremost. Is he a whiner and windbag at times? Absolutely, but no one would care if he wasn’t one of the greatest to ever coach.
For the most part this is true. I think there are some legit reasons not to like the man. However, I do not like him and I cannot really delineate the reasons why.
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Yes he does. Hindsight is 20/20 though.
As funny as it sounds, long term, it was probably better for Wojo to go to Marquette instead of stay, even if he would have been the guy instead of Scheyer. Especially financially. He made more here than doing the same floundering at Duke and getting tossed after 2-3 years.
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As funny as it sounds, long term, it was probably better for Wojo to go to Marquette instead of stay, even if he would have been the guy instead of Scheyer. Especially financially. He made more here than doing the same floundering at Duke and getting tossed after 2-3 years.
Considering how K is setting up this succession plan and doing it over a year (unlike Roy) Scheyer is going to be successful out of the gate and get at least 5 years. It’s Duke.
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For the most part this is true. I think there are some legit reasons not to like the man. However, I do not like him and I cannot really delineate the reasons why.
Coach K might be the devil incarnate, but after his halftime adjustments in the 2015 Championship Game, I'd forgive him (and Grayson Allen) of just about anything.
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People don’t like Coach K because they’re jealous at how wildly successful he is, first and foremost. Is he a whiner and windbag at times? Absolutely, but no one would care if he wasn’t one of the greatest to ever coach.
My dislike started when he put Elton Brand, and others, through hell for wanting to leave early. A coach like Al would say "takr the money" and admit to not being perfect while trying to do right by his players. K projected to be perfect and pulled crap like that. Not a terrible man by any means...but not a guy I liked to cheer for.
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Coach K might be the devil incarnate, but after his halftime adjustments in the 2015 Championship Game, I'd forgive him (and Grayson Allen) of just about anything.
Yeah I didn’t care for him (and pretty much always rooted for Duke to lose) until that game which was glorious.
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Coach K might be the devil incarnate, but after his halftime adjustments in the 2015 Championship Game, I'd forgive him (and Grayson Allen) of just about anything.
So true, brewski. I was cheering for Duke as if K was my best friend!
As for the coaching change ...
There are those who don't think K is a very good game coach, including some on this board who have said stuff like, "A whole lot of coaches would win just as much, if not more, with the talent they have every year."
So maybe Scheyer actually will be an improvement as a game coach!
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My dislike started when he put Elton Brand, and others, through hell for wanting to leave early. A coach like Al would say "takr the money" and admit to not being perfect while trying to do right by his players. K projected to be perfect and pulled crap like that. Not a terrible man by any means...but not a guy I liked to cheer for.
That’s part of his story but I thought that was more Corey Maggette and William Avery than Brand. Different time and era. His thoughts on that evolved through the years as evidenced by utilizing one-and-dones, though, I’d argue that he was better served with veteran rosters.
I don’t think NIL and transfers actually would have been a problem for him or Roy. They’d have thrived in any ecosystem of college basketball
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That’s part of his story but I thought that was more Corey Maggette and William Avery than Brand. Different time and era. His thoughts on that evolved through the years as evidenced by utilizing one-and-dones, though, I’d argue that he was better served with veteran rosters.
I don’t think NIL and transfers actually would have been a problem for him or Roy. They’d have thrived in any ecosystem of college basketball
Oh yeah, he evolved because he had to in order to win...but when telling a kid whose family was broke and hurting that they were disgraceful to the duke family for leaving early was best for winning...that's what he did. Al "evolved" past that years earlier and could openly admit what he was. For someone who won so much, he never seemed comfortable in his own skin.
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if wojo stayed at duke does he grt the job instead of scheyer
I think probably. I also think that Wojo believed 100% that going to Marquette would solidify himself even more as K's successor. Most of these high level coaches have huge egos and I have no doubt that Wojo believed his inevitable successful stint as Marquette's HC would help him separate from the pack of other Dukies vying for the position. I'm sure it never occurred to him that he would fail.
We often hear stories about athletes/coaches who bet on themselves and win. This one kind of went the other way. But then again...
As funny as it sounds, long term, it was probably better for Wojo to go to Marquette instead of stay, even if he would have been the guy instead of Scheyer. Especially financially. He made more here than doing the same floundering at Duke and getting tossed after 2-3 years.
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My dislike started when he put Elton Brand, and others, through hell for wanting to leave early. A coach like Al would say "takr the money" and admit to not being perfect while trying to do right by his players. K projected to be perfect and pulled crap like that. Not a terrible man by any means...but not a guy I liked to cheer for.
It was Will Avery, mainly because he stopped going to classes and dropped out of school as soon as the season was over. Looking at Avery’s NBA career, he was right in saying he wasn’t ready.
K and Brand were on the same page and K supported the decision. https://sites.cs.ucsb.edu/~mikec/cs48/misc/quotes/trust.html
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The Dillon Brooks incident sealed the deal for me. About as phony as Buzz.
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It was Will Avery, mainly because he stopped going to classes and dropped out of school as soon as the season was over. Looking at Avery’s NBA career, he was right in saying he wasn’t ready.
K and Brand were on the same page and K supported the decision. https://sites.cs.ucsb.edu/~mikec/cs48/misc/quotes/trust.html
Thanks for posting this; you beat me to it. K totally supported Brand's decision. He did question Avery, who was nowhere near ready to be a pro (and K was proven right about that).
We all know about Al's legend telling guys to go pro ... but I'm pretty sure he would not have voiced as much support had, say, Lloyd Walton wanted to go pro after his first year.
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It was Will Avery, mainly because he stopped going to classes and dropped out of school as soon as the season was over. Looking at Avery’s NBA career, he was right in saying he wasn’t ready.
K and Brand were on the same page and K supported the decision. https://sites.cs.ucsb.edu/~mikec/cs48/misc/quotes/trust.html
You're saying Coach K didn't unfairly pressure kids to stay at Duke?
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Avery was still a lottery pick though. It’s not like a Vander situation. If you’re a lottery pick, you go, period. Especially when you just played on a Runner Up team that was losing 2 other lottery picks plus a graduating Trajan Langdon. K was fine with Brand leaving to be the consensus #1 but he was pissed about losing Maggette and Avery too.
I don’t think he’s the devil incarnate, but acting like people only don’t like Coach K cause he’s very successful is total BS. Plenty of successful coaches don’t berate student writers and other underlings for daring to question him like he does. He’s is discussion for the best of all time, without a doubt. He’s also a phony egomaniacal douche
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The Dillon Brooks incident sealed the deal for me. About as phony as Buzz.
Yup. Same here. That was a complete embarrassment as was his "apology". Good for Dillon Brooks to move beyond Coach K's nonsense and become a really good NBA player. Conjuring a story out of thin air isn't a good look.
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Thanks for posting this; you beat me to it. K totally supported Brand's decision. He did question Avery, who was nowhere near ready to be a pro (and K was proven right about that).
We all know about Al's legend telling guys to go pro ... but I'm pretty sure he would not have voiced as much support had, say, Lloyd Walton wanted to go pro after his first year.
We read that article very differently. I wonder what would have happened if Brand would have had a career altering injury in his sophomore year after passing up a guaranteed roughly $8 mil over 3 years...
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It was Will Avery, mainly because he stopped going to classes and dropped out of school as soon as the season was over. Looking at Avery’s NBA career, he was right in saying he wasn’t ready.
K and Brand were on the same page and K supported the decision. https://sites.cs.ucsb.edu/~mikec/cs48/misc/quotes/trust.html
Avery's mom hadn't been able to work for 3 years because of back issues and his grandma was very ill...yet K made him feel like crap for leaving and ripped him prior to the draft. Leave before K says its okay and you'll pay...
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Avery's mom hadn't been able to work for 3 years because of back issues and his grandma was very ill...yet K made him feel like crap for leaving and ripped him prior to the draft. Leave before K says its okay and you'll pay...
Yeah, I didn't mean to softpedal it. K was a d-bag with the Avery thing. But not having K's blessing didn't keep Avery from getting drafted high.
K had a lot of success, he did many things well, he also could be a dirtball like a lot of college coaches are.
And there certainly is jealousy of his success, as well as of many successful coaches.