Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?

[21Jumpstreet]

So how do you respond to black academics who think DiAngelo and Kendi are  race hustlers that further divide our society and are condescending and belittling to black people Are they ignorant?  Is John McWorter stupid?  Does he know less about these issues than DiAngelo?  He called her book a pile of excrement how would you respond to him?

Probably how John McWhorter has responded, that this discussion is more complicated than it is sometimes treated, that the words used in the debates are often defined differently between people, that we should work towards understanding. (I assume you are referring to the linguist, John McWhorter).

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

So your rebuttal is calling people ignorant that don't agree with you.  That's a failed strategy FBM and beneath your character.

Not really. Mocking you is easy and fun because an actually intelligent discussion on your end isn’t possible. 

[21Jumpstreet]

I ask questions because you have no answer as to how the Kemdi/DiAngelo thesis or CRT  helps Anerican society with regard to racism or race relations.   It causes division as well as people who conform blindly without asking any questions.

It only causes division if we let it cause division. We can also treat it as another idea/thought/opinion/fact and work to find a place where there is more agreement then work from there.

[MuggsyB]

Probably how John McWhorter has responded, that this discussion is more complicated than it is sometimes treated, that the words used in the debates are often defined differently between people, that we should work towards understanding. (I assume you are referring to the linguist, John McWhorter).

Yes.  His expertise is Slavic languages .  He is extremely critical of DiAngelo's book at pretty much every level.  He doesn't find it complex from the interviews I watched.

[Pakuni]

So how do you respond to black academics who think DiAngelo and Kendi are  race hustlers that further divide our society and are condescending and belittling to black people Are they ignorant?  Is John McWorter stupid?

I'm not sure, but you should definitely refer to them as "little mister professor."

[MuggsyB]

I'm not sure, but you should definitely refer to them as "little mister professor."

I'm sorry that triggered you Pakuni and automatically makes me misogynistic and racist.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I'm sorry that triggered you Pakuni and automatically makes me misogynistic and racist.

Yep. Still can’t see it. Exactly my point.

[Pakuni]

I'm sorry that triggered you Pakuni and automatically makes me misogynistic and racist.

Very triggered man says it's actually everyone else who's triggered.

[21Jumpstreet]

Yes.  His expertise is Slavic languages .  He is extremely critical of DiAngelo's book at pretty much every level.  He doesn't find it complex from the interviews I watched.

I did read an opinion piece he wrote about the book, and I found it well-spoken (yes, I specifically used that term in direct reference to his commentary about how the book refers to phrases white people cannot say). I have heard his opinion before about the book infantilizing Black people and also how it treats Black people as less capable, and that it is a book solely aimed at making white people feel better about themselves.

For me, it definitely made me question how I’ve thought and acted over the years, more specifically why I haven’t stood up and fought for economic justice. It did not make me feel guilty, I would do anything for my kids, but it did make me question why, if I have the means and some control, why I wouldn’t actively create opportunities for those less well off. Not just Black people to be sure, but I have personally spent the most time reading and learning about Black experiences. It made me more able to be vulnerable and just talk things out, because I have accepted that I am part of a system that I think keeps some people down more than others. It made me more open, which I thought was a benefit. I’ll never know what it’s like to be a Black man in America, but I know what it’s like to be a dad, a son, a husband. To me that’s enough to listen even when I’m called out for not giving a Black man enough credit or for being praised for trying to explain to my sons that not everyone lives the same life we do. 

I’ve read a handful of pieces by McWhorter, and I always find them worthwhile. I don’t know much about him other than what I have read often gives “more to the argument” so to speak. It seems to me he knows there is systemic racism and that the arguments being had are complicated and often missing some valuable pieces. And, that it’s less about self-examination and more about self-action.

[Hards Alumni]

Why do you live here if you are "ashamed of the system"?  GIve me some examples of better :systems" that don't make you ashamed.   Are there any other factors in your mind besides the "system" that contribute to why individuals or groups succeeed or fail?

Perfect societies are plausible in theory, but not based in reality.  If they were total equality would work and no one would do anything evil or prejudicial.  We all know history is replete with countless examples of philosophically perfect society that have failed miserably.  Of course we want to do better as a country/society, the problem is our flawed system can be replaced with a system far worse as we know too well. It's not particularly rational to think any race of people can be transformed and look at the world through a Utopian lens.

I live here because I expect change to come to the system, and I advocate for this change.  What a stupid ass argument.

As for the portion I bolded, "things might get worse" is another terrible argument.  Of course that is always a possibility, but right now in America things aren't okay.  They might be for you, but there is a lot of suffering due to systemic racism.

You should be advocating for more equality for all, and not holding on to the notion that White supremacy doesn't exist in America.  I'm not advocating for everything in America to be perfectly fair, so let's stop with the strawman arguments.  I'm advocating that we stop screwing over Black people and acknowledge that we have built a society that is massively tilted in the favor of White males.  And then we attempt to correct that inequity by changing our public policy.

You're trying to ignore a problem that clearly exists because it is uncomfortable for you to admit how easy White men in America have it, and the possibility that other groups seeing such success terrifies the hell out of you.

I have no idea why this scares so many White males.

[Hards Alumni]

I ask questions because you have no answer as to how the Kemdi/DiAngelo thesis or CRT  helps Anerican society with regard to racism or race relations.   It causes division as well as people who conform blindly without asking any questions.

How does it cause division?  Who causes this division?  Fragile White males need to accept that history is typically written by the oppressors and victors.  Guess who that has been for the last couple hundred years. 

You're advocating for dismissing actual history because it might hurt some people's feelings to find out the histories of Black people. 

And you don't see how that is racist?

[21Jumpstreet]

I'm sorry that triggered you Pakuni and automatically makes me misogynistic and racist.

I don’t think you saying “little miss phd” makes you a misogynist, for all I know you have a wife, daughter, co-workers whom you would never refer to as little miss anything. But, it is at the very least condescending and dismissive. Being a PhD is a commitment, whether you agree with her or not, and should be valued. I think it was a poor choice of words on your part, and trust me you’re not alone in that. I am squarely in your corner of having said some questionable things even unwittingly. And, that’s the point. We say things out of habit, being taught, actually believing, it’s important to understand where what we say comes from. Again, I don’t think you’re a misogynist, and I will add that not seeing the point of Pakuni’s post or taking any responsibility for your choice of words referring to the PhD can make someone wonder if it was more intentional than accidental.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Does she explain how when it comes to income the highest earners in the USA are Asian males?  Does she offer any empirical evidence that our American "system" is racist, therefore we whites have to be racists because of our societal advantages? 

I have an issue with her thesis and CRT in general because I think it divides people further, labels people into groups and connotes group thinking, and their solutions are often absurd.  We tend to conflate equality and equity, they are two different things.  There are numerous cultural reasons within all races that lead to all sorts of results when it comes to having a happy and fullfilling life.

Even if everyone agreed with the premise that because of the white construct that we live in we inherently are racist, then what?  We all do what Kendi/ Di-Angelo suggests while they make 40K a lecture?  And why exactly is she the arbiter of defining Racism or what it feels like to be black in American society?  Is it conceivable that one can disagree with her thesis and not be a racist in your opinion?  Or do we have to start in this "we're inexorably racist place" to move the needle at all towards becoming non-prejudicial?

Again, you are misusing the term racist here. Dr. DiAngelo doesn't say that all Whites are racists, the noun. She says all Whites are racist, the adjective at times. And the definition of racist that Dr. DiAngelo uses is a broad one that refers to everything between overt hate crimes and not addressing a friend who commits a small microaggression.

So let's take the word racism out of it. Call it whatever you want. Do you agree that all White people (or all people if that's more comfortable for you) sometimes say, think, or do things because of bias or discomfort around race?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Why do you live here if you are "ashamed of the system"?  GIve me some examples of better :systems" that don't make you ashamed.   Are there any other factors in your mind besides the "system" that contribute to why individuals or groups succeeed or fail?

Perfect societies are plausible in theory, but not based in reality.  If they were total equality would work and no one would do anything evil or prejudicial.  We all know history is replete with countless examples of philosophically perfect society that have failed miserably.   Of course we want to do better as a country/society, the problem is our flawed system can be replaced with a system far worse as we know too well.  It's not particularly rational to think any race of people can be transformed and look at the world through a Utopian lens.

First, I would say that just because you are ashamed of one piece of something doesn't mean you have to leave it or hate it. I am far from a perfect person, I have done many things in my past that I am ashamed of now. Most minor, a few major. I'm sure you have had a few moments in your life that you wish you could take back. That doesn't mean that I hate myself. I reflect on those past mistakes and I try to do better in the future.

No one is seriously advocating that we need to be build a perfect society. Just that we try to improve on the one we have. We should always be trying to do better, no?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I don't make a distinction between men or women with PhD's lecturing everyone on how to be an anti-racist.  Some would also point out that it's super interesting that a white female knows what it feels like to be black in American society.  I also know several black people that think her book is demeaning and very condescending.  There are also known black sociologists and humanities professors that think her work is a pile of excrement such as John McWorter.  Again Blacks, Whites, Asians, Hispanics, Pacific Islanders, etc are not monolithic.  This is a big problem with her book if you accept we all aren't the same.

Muggsy, I would ask yourself a couple of questions here.

1. If you don't make a distinction between men and women, why did you feel the need to bring up Dr. DiAngelo's sex?

2. I may be misreading, but it seems like you don't think much of people with PhDs. Why?

Also, Dr. DiAngelo never makes the claim to know what it is like to be Black in American society. My recollection is that she goes out of her way to emphasize that she does not in her book. What she does do is share the qualitative data that she has gathered from from Black people that she has worked with and interviewed.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So how do you respond to black academics who think DiAngelo and Kendi are  race hustlers that further divide our society and are condescending and belittling to black people Are they ignorant?  Is John McWorter stupid?  Does he know less about these issues than DiAngelo?  He called her book a pile of excrement how would you respond to him?

Have you read Dr. McWhorter's commentary on Dr. DiAngelo's book? You might find this interesting:

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/20/892943728/professor-criticizes-book-white-fragility-as-dehumanizing-to-black-people

Well, I understand where she's coming from. I don't think she's a hustler. I know that she's sincere.

It's interesting that you keep saying Black academics have called her a race hustler (I'm sure some have) and quote Dr. McWhorter, but he specifically said that he doesn't think Dr. DiAngelo is a race hustler. I'm also curious if you agree with a lot of Dr. McWhorter's other views on race which include being pro-police reform and housing reform.

I actually agree with a lot of Dr. McWhorter's views including some of his criticisms of Dr. DiAngelo's work.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Are you saying this was not taught before CRT?

In many schools, yes. In many more it is glossed over but not really explored.

This one caused a stir around my area a few years ago: https://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-et-jc-texas-textbook-calls-slaves-immigrants-20151005-story.html.

[21Jumpstreet]

Have you read Dr. McWhorter's commentary on Dr. DiAngelo's book? You might find this interesting:

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/20/892943728/professor-criticizes-book-white-fragility-as-dehumanizing-to-black-people

It's interesting that you keep saying Black academics have called her a race hustler (I'm sure some have) and quote Dr. McWhorter, but he specifically said that he doesn't think Dr. DiAngelo is a race hustler. I'm also curious if you agree with a lot of Dr. McWhorter's other views on race which include being pro-police reform and housing reform.

I actually agree with a lot of Dr. McWhorter's views including some of his criticisms of Dr. DiAngelo's work.

This is one of the pieces I have read by or with commentary by McWhorter, I found it worthwhile. I wondered if Muggs read this piece as it paints a more full view of what McWhorter thinks, which is exactly why I think Muggs refers to him.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm sorry that triggered you Pakuni and automatically makes me misogynistic and racist.

It doesn't make you misogynistic and racist (not sure how race would tie in with that specific comment). But that was a misogynistic comment. You may not have intended it that way but that is the way it has come off to multiple people here. I showed it to my wife who is a current PhD student and she agreed as well. Her exact words were "seems insecure about a woman being more educated than him." And I know you will say that's not true and not how you meant it. But that is the impact that your statement had. We all say and do things some times that have a different impact that what we intended, it doesn't make us bad people, just people. It's important to take ownership of the impact we have on others, even when it's not what we intended.

[jesmu84]

Are you saying this was not taught before CRT?

Your response here (another question, btw) makes me think you don't actually know what CRT is. We should - and frequently do - teach history like trail of tears and slavery to middle schoolers and older. CRT, to my knowledge, is not taught at lower levels.

[MuggsyB]

It doesn't make you misogynistic and racist (not sure how race would tie in with that specific comment). But that was a misogynistic comment. You may not have intended it that way but that is the way it has come off to multiple people here. I showed it to my wife who is a current PhD student and she agreed as well. Her exact words were "seems insecure about a woman being more educated than him." And I know you will say that's not true and not how you meant it. But that is the impact that your statement had. We all say and do things some times that have a different impact that what we intended, it doesn't make us bad people, just people. It's important to take ownership of the impact we have on others, even when it's not what we intended.

I'm not jealous of DiAngelo's phd in multicultural education.  But I apologize to your wife for my comment.

[MuggsyB]

This is one of the pieces I have read by or with commentary by McWhorter, I found it worthwhile. I wondered if Muggs read this piece as it paints a more full view of what McWhorter thinks, which is exactly why I think Muggs refers to him.

Yes.  I get that a lot of you want to racialize everything and get triggered easily.  My heart goes out to you. What you should be triggered about is the point Mcwhorter makes about how "antiracist" academics dehumanize black people.  And make race relations worse.  And don't discuss the difference between equity and equality.  And essentially cripple people on all sides of the discussion, especially black Americans.  I'm reminded by that video of  a white woman screaming at black cops that they are racists.  I'm sure it made DiAngelo proud.  McWhorter said "it's one of the worst books ever written" in a video with Glen Loury and that the value of it is to stop tables from wobbling.  Ar least I'm not that harsh?

[Galway Eagle]

Yes.  I get that a lot of you want to racialize everything and get triggered easily.  My heart goes out to you. What you should be triggered about is the point Mcwhorter makes about how "antiracist" academics dehumanize black people.  And make race relations worse.  And don't discuss the difference between equity and equality. And essentially cripple people on all sides of the discussion, especially black Americans.  I'm reminded by that video of  a white woman screaming at black cops that they are racists.  I'm sure it made DiAngelo proud.  McWhorter said "it's one of the worst books ever written" in a video with Glen Loury and that the value of it is to stop tables from wobbling.  Ar least I'm not that harsh?

You've mentioned this a few times. Are you pro equity or equality? Or are you just upset that nobody discusses it?

[MuggsyB]

You've mentioned this a few times. Are you pro equity or equality? Or are you just upset that nobody discusses it?

I'm not upset at all, I think it's important to discuss these issues freely.  I'm pro opportunity of equality. Everyone being equal and having the exact same things is not how societies function.  I want to have a 70 inch vert, be 6'7 with Iverson's quickness, and shoot like Steph Curry.  I would imagine all of us here do .  That's sadly not feasible. 

Our lack of economic equality has far more to do with class and educational opportunities as well as one's parenting advantages or disadvantages.  I don't subscribe to the view that every construct of the USA is rigged against those that aren't white in 2021.  I think that's belittling and extremely offensive, especially to non-whites.  Again, even if you accept this as a fact it doesn't change how we are going to solve these problems or help people that are struggling for whatever reason on their path to autonomy, being a solid citizen, and a life of happiness and fulfillment.  I'm sick of the polarization of this country in general.

[Galway Eagle]

I'm not upset at all, I think it's important to discuss these issues freely.  I'm pro opportunity of equality. Everyone being equal and having the exact same things is not how societies function.  I want to have a 70 inch vert, be 6'7 with Iverson's quickness, and shoot like Steph Curry.  I would imagine all of us here do .  That's sadly not feasible. 

Our lack of economic equality has far more to do with class and educational opportunities as well as one's parenting advantages or disadvantages.  I don't subscribe to the view that every construct of the USA is rigged against those that aren't white in 2021.  I think that's belittling and extremely offensive, especially to non-whites.  Again, even if you accept this as a fact it doesn't change how we are going to solve these problems or help people that are struggling for whatever reason on their path to autonomy, being a solid citizen, and a life of happiness and fulfillment.  I'm sick of the polarization of this country in general.

I wish for an equal opportunity society as well. If I could Hurl like Joe Canning and box like Canelo and bagpipe like Gordon Duncan I'd have reached my peak. But pipe dreams aside would you say that the concept of "deprecate but equal back in the Jim Crow days was not actually equal? If yes I have a lovely plot of sand for you to stick your head into. If no then when (date or generation) would you say that black individuals should have made up all the ground that they lost since they started behind white folk in building generational wealth, educational opportunity, etc? And given that if both sides worked at equal paces since then they'd still be behind, then what is the issue with acknowledging that the lack of equity keeps at least a decent few of them back?