Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

No, but I attended a lecture she gave centered around her book.  Her entire premise is more demeaning towards black people but what I got from her book talk is that racism is inexorably stuck in all white people.  This thesis in itself certainly can make white people feel ashamed of their race.  She also gave a bizarre example of white people smiling with glee when a black person is incarcerated and that it's no different than watching lynchings during slavery.

I give you a lot of credit for at least attending a lecture by Dr. DiAngelo before having an opinion about it. That's more than most people I hear criticize her work and others work.

I think there's a difference between "can make White people feel ashamed of their race" as you said in this post and "White people should be ashamed of themselves" as you wrote in your first post. Yes, the reaction a lot of White people have to reading Dr. DiAngelo's work is feeling shame, that doesn't mean that the book is telling them to be ashamed. In fact, I think that feeling of shame would be an example of the titular "White Fragility" that Dr. DiAngelo is writing about. Her work doesn't call for White people to be ashamed but rather to acknowledge the benefits we receive from systemic racism and to work to try and dismantle it...though her book is less about how we do that and more about why so many White people don't.

Also, I'd like to point out here (not to you Muggsy but just in general), that Drs. DiAngelo and Kendi are just two scholars within the Critical Race Theory umbrella. They are the current flavors of the month but they didn't invent CRT and their work doesn't define it. It has been around since the 80s and not all of Dr. DiAngelo's and Dr. Kendi's ideas actually match with traditional CRT.

[Pakuni]

Ironically, Muggy's posts about White Fragility make a pretty good case for the existence of white Fragility. Everything's framed around the feelings of white people and how certain uncomfortable conversations or ideas are to be avoided because they might make white people feel bad.
I'd be interested to see a Venn diagram comparing the critics of CRT with the defenders of people like Charles Murray.

[MuggsyB]

Ironically, Muggy's posts about White Fragility make a pretty good case for the existence of white Fragility. Everything's framed around the feelings of white people and how certain uncomfortable conversations or ideas are to be avoided because they might make white people feel bad.
I'd be interested to see a Venn diagram comparing the critics of CRT with the defenders of people like Charles Murray.

Are "White People:" monolithic?  Are black people?  Are Asians?  Hispanics?  Native Americans?  Because little miss phd tells us all white people all racists and all black people are walking on egg shells because of white racism, ergo we're fragile??    She's very good at one thing:  gaslighting america and race hustling. 

[MuggsyB]

I give you a lot of credit for at least attending a lecture by Dr. DiAngelo before having an opinion about it. That's more than most people I hear criticize her work and others work.

I think there's a difference between "can make White people feel ashamed of their race" as you said in this post and "White people should be ashamed of themselves" as you wrote in your first post. Yes, the reaction a lot of White people have to reading Dr. DiAngelo's work is feeling shame, that doesn't mean that the book is telling them to be ashamed. In fact, I think that feeling of shame would be an example of the titular "White Fragility" that Dr. DiAngelo is writing about. Her work doesn't call for White people to be ashamed but rather to acknowledge the benefits we receive from systemic racism and to work to try and dismantle it...though her book is less about how we do that and more about why so many White people don't.

Also, I'd like to point out here (not to you Muggsy but just in general), that Drs. DiAngelo and Kendi are just two scholars within the Critical Race Theory umbrella. They are the current flavors of the month but they didn't invent CRT and their work doesn't define it. It has been around since the 80s and not all of Dr. DiAngelo's and Dr. Kendi's ideas actually match with traditional CRT.

Does she not insist that all white people are racist, including herself, because of our "system"?  And that we all need to acknowledge this in order to rid ourselves of this racism?  Again, white people and other races of people are not monolithic.  This is beyond insulting. 

[Hards Alumni]

Does she not insist that all white people are racist, including herself, because of our "system"?  And that we all need to acknowledge this in order to rid ourselves of this racism?  Again, white people and other races of people are not monolithic.  This is beyond insulting.

I hate to break it to you, but literally everyone on the planet, regardless of their melanin content in their skin, is racist to some degree.  What is being asked is an acknowledgement of the past and how it has formed the extremely flawed society we live in.  Teaching the version of 'history' that a lot of us grew up on glosses over horrific events, and often times creates outright lies as an excuse for the way Black people have been treated in this country since its inception.

I think anyone that is outraged by CRT is against the teaching of a more accurate history.

No one is asking for you to be personally ashamed on behalf of all White people.  What we need to be ashamed of is the system that we have created to hold Black people back, and that not acknowledging it or working to change it is racist.  Because why wouldn't you want a more perfect society? 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Does she not insist that all white people are racist, including herself, because of our "system"?  And that we all need to acknowledge this in order to rid ourselves of this racism?  Again, white people and other races of people are not monolithic.  This is beyond insulting.

She insists all White people are racist at times. Which is true. She also insists that all White people benefit from systemic racism. Which is also true. Though when I say "all" I believe Dr. DiAngelo limits her book to the context of the USA.

I think the dissonance may be coming from differing definitions of racist. Dr. DiAngelo doesn't use racist the noun, as in someone who in their heart of hearts hates people of other races. She uses racist the adjective as in any thought, action, or inaction that supports systemic racism. This adjective covers everything from cross burning to not saying something when a friend makes an off color joke about race. So using this definition, all White people are racist at times and I would argue all people period are racist at times. It doesn't mean that all White people hate people of other races

[MuggsyB]

She insists all White people are racist at times. Which is true. She also insists that all White people benefit from systemic racism. Which is also true. Though when I say "all" I believe Dr. DiAngelo limits her book to the context of the USA.

I think the dissonance may be coming from differing definitions of racist. Dr. DiAngelo doesn't use racist the noun, as in someone who in their heart of hearts hates people of other races. She uses racist the adjective as in any thought, action, or inaction that supports systemic racism. This adjective covers everything from cross burning to not saying something when a friend makes an off color joke about race. So using this definition, all White people are racist at times and I would argue all people period are racist at times. It doesn't mean that all White people hate people of other races

Does she explain how when it comes to income the highest earners in the USA are Asian males?  Does she offer any empirical evidence that our American "system" is racist, therefore we whites have to be racists because of our societal advantages? 

I have an issue with her thesis and CRT in general because I think it divides people further, labels people into groups and connotes group thinking, and their solutions are often absurd.  We tend to conflate equality and equity, they are two different things.  There are numerous cultural reasons within all races that lead to all sorts of results when it comes to having a happy and fullfilling life.

Even if everyone agreed with the premise that because of the white construct that we live in we inherently are racist, then what?  We all do what Kendi/ Di-Angelo suggests while they make 40K a lecture?  And why exactly is she the arbiter of defining Racism or what it feels like to be black in American society?  Is it conceivable that one can disagree with her thesis and not be a racist in your opinion?  Or do we have to start in this "we're inexorably racist place" to move the needle at all towards becoming non-prejudicial? 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Does she explain how when it comes to income the highest earners in the USA are Asian males?

LOL...right out of the fragile white male playbook.

[MuggsyB]

I hate to break it to you, but literally everyone on the planet, regardless of their melanin content in their skin, is racist to some degree.  What is being asked is an acknowledgement of the past and how it has formed the extremely flawed society we live in.  Teaching the version of 'history' that a lot of us grew up on glosses over horrific events, and often times creates outright lies as an excuse for the way Black people have been treated in this country since its inception.

I think anyone that is outraged by CRT is against the teaching of a more accurate history.

No one is asking for you to be personally ashamed on behalf of all White people.  What we need to be ashamed of is the system that we have created to hold Black people back, and that not acknowledging it or working to change it is racist.  Because why wouldn't you want a more perfect society?

Why do you live here if you are "ashamed of the system"?  GIve me some examples of better :systems" that don't make you ashamed.   Are there any other factors in your mind besides the "system" that contribute to why individuals or groups succeeed or fail?

Perfect societies are plausible in theory, but not based in reality.  If they were total equality would work and no one would do anything evil or prejudicial.  We all know history is replete with countless examples of philosophically perfect society that have failed miserably.   Of course we want to do better as a country/society, the problem is our flawed system can be replaced with a system far worse as we know too well.  It's not particularly rational to think any race of people can be transformed and look at the world through a Utopian lens. 

[21Jumpstreet]

Does she explain how when it comes to income the highest earners in the USA are Asian males?  Does she offer any empirical evidence that our American "system" is racist, therefore we whites have to be racists because of our societal advantages? 

I have an issue with her thesis and CRT in general because I think it divides people further, labels people into groups and connotes group thinking, and their solutions are often absurd.  We tend to conflate equality and equity, they are two different things.  There are numerous cultural reasons within all races that lead to all sorts of results when it comes to having a happy and fullfilling life.

Even if everyone agreed with the premise that because of the white construct that we live in we inherently are racist, then what?  We all do what Kendi/ Di-Angelo suggests while they make 40K a lecture?  And why exactly is she the arbiter of defining Racism or what it feels like to be black in American society?  Is it conceivable that one can disagree with her thesis and not be a racist in your opinion?  Or do we have to start in this "we're inexorably racist place" to move the needle at all towards becoming non-prejudicial?

You seem very invested in this topic, which I applaud you for. With that said, read the book so at the very least you are more armed to defend your opinions. You might even find a nugget or two in it that opens your perspective a little. Not change your mind but make you think about it in another way.

Also, when you say “little miss phd” you completely undercut your statements. I enjoy hearing from people who have different opinions, I do not like echo chambers. However, in order to give any credence to what you say, I think it’s important to limit the seeming misogyny. I think you’re better than that.

[MuggsyB]

You seem very invested in this topic, which I applaud you for. With that said, read the book so at the very least you are more armed to defend your opinions. You might even find a nugget or two in it that opens your perspective a little. Not change your mind but make you think about it in another way.

Also, when you say “little miss phd” you completely undercut your statements. I enjoy hearing from people who have different opinions, I do not like echo chambers. However, in order to give any credence to what you say, I think it’s important to limit the seeming misogyny. I think you’re better than that.

I don't make a distinction between men or women with PhD's lecturing everyone on how to be an anti-racist.  Some would also point out that it's super interesting that a white female knows what it feels like to be black in American society.  I also know several black people that think her book is demeaning and very condescending.  There are also known black sociologists and humanities professors that think her work is a pile of excrement such as John McWorter.  Again Blacks, Whites, Asians, Hispanics, Pacific Islanders, etc are not monolithic.  This is a big problem with her book if you accept we all aren't the same.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

You seem very invested in this topic, which I applaud you for. With that said, read the book so at the very least you are more armed to defend your opinions. You might even find a nugget or two in it that opens your perspective a little. Not change your mind but make you think about it in another way.

Also, when you say “little miss phd” you completely undercut your statements. I enjoy hearing from people who have different opinions, I do not like echo chambers. However, in order to give any credence to what you say, I think it’s important to limit the seeming misogyny. I think you’re better than that.

Really?  What makes you think “he is better than that.”  There is no evidence that’s the case. There is no evidence he is willing to leant anything.

He fills his posts with dozens of questions, which when answered, are completely ignored so he can ask even more, many of which are laughably irrelevant.

[21Jumpstreet]

I don't make a distinction between men or women with PhD's lecturing everyone on how to be an anti-racist.  Some would also point out that it's super interesting that a white female knows what it feels like to be black in American society.  I also know several black people that think her book is demeaning and very condescending.  There are also known black sociologists and humanities professors that think her work is a pile of excrement such as John McWorter.  Again Blacks, Whites, Asians, Hispanics, Pacific Islanders, etc are not monolithic.  This is a big problem with her book if you accept we all aren't the same.

I think you do, specifically with the words you choose, but that is entirely up to you to accept. I recommend the book “Leadership and Self-Deception” it changed my life.

You are absolutely correct that no one single opinion is shared by all. I have been called out before by acquaintances who are Black for thinking I “know” what it’s like and all solutions fit all Black people. I get it, it’s a tough conversation and can be a tough pill to swallow.

What can’t be ignored by naming some differing opinion or supporting that opinion with a collection of people is that the other opinion also exists. Dismissing the idea of systemic racism and white fragility because some people disagree is hypocritical. It does exist, period. To the degree that it exists is where the debate lies. No one person has the exact same thought, it is good to hear and understand from people who challenge you.

[21Jumpstreet]

Really?  What makes you think “he is better than that.”  There is no evidence that’s the case. There is no evidence he is willing to leant anything.

He fills his posts with dozens of questions, which when answered, are completely ignored so he can ask even more, many of which are laughably irrelevant.

Cause he’s human, and I have a tremendously high view of humanity. I have a tremendously high level of hope. I think people are inherently good.

He’s afraid, he’s angry, he’s defensive. That comes from somewhere, a place we don’t know but one we have likely experienced ourselves. I don’t like the language he chooses, but I like hearing his opinions. I was like him in some ways, so I can appreciate the inner struggle he probably feels. Growth is difficult. I just told my 15-year old son something I recently read, “Everything feels difficult when you’re about to level up. Don’t quit.” Perhaps Muggs is leveling up, perhaps we can give him that chance to work through it.

[MuggsyB]

Really?  What makes you think “he is better than that.”  There is no evidence that’s the case. There is no evidence he is willing to leant anything.

He fills his posts with dozens of questions, which when answered, are completely ignored so he can ask even more, many of which are laughably irrelevant.

"Learming" appears to be agreeing with her thesis or what you are parroting.  We'll agree to disagree FBM.

[MuggsyB]

Cause he’s human, and I have a tremendously high view of humanity. I have a tremendously high level of hope. I think people are inherently good.

He’s afraid, he’s angry, he’s defensive. That comes from somewhere, a place we don’t know but one we have likely experienced ourselves. I don’t like the language he chooses, but I like hearing his opinions. I was like him in some ways, so I can appreciate the inner struggle he probably feels. Growth is difficult. I just told my 15-year old son something I recently read, “Everything feels difficult when you’re about to level up. Don’t quit.” Perhaps Muggs is leveling up, perhaps we can give him that chance to work through it.

Ty for your suggestions. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

"Learming" appears to be agreeing with her thesis or what you are parroting.  We'll agree to disagree FBM.

I’m not parroting anything. Because you’ve already shown yourself to be ignorant and unwilling to learn on this topic.

God bless TAMU and 21 for having the patience, but they may as well be talking to a rock.

[MuggsyB]

I’m not parroting anything. Because you’ve already shown yourself to be ignorant and unwilling to learn on this topic.

God bless TAMU and 21 for having the patience, but they may as well be talking to a rock.

So how do you respond to black academics who think DiAngelo and Kendi are  race hustlers that further divide our society and are condescending and belittling to black people Are they ignorant?  Is John McWorter stupid?  Does he know less about these issues than DiAngelo?  He called her book a pile of excrement how would you respond to him? 

[jesmu84]

I hate to break it to you, but literally everyone on the planet, regardless of their melanin content in their skin, is racist to some degree.  What is being asked is an acknowledgement of the past and how it has formed the extremely flawed society we live in.  Teaching the version of 'history' that a lot of us grew up on glosses over horrific events, and often times creates outright lies as an excuse for the way Black people have been treated in this country since its inception.

I think anyone that is outraged by CRT is against the teaching of a more accurate history.

No one is asking for you to be personally ashamed on behalf of all White people.  What we need to be ashamed of is the system that we have created to hold Black people back, and that not acknowledging it or working to change it is racist.  Because why wouldn't you want a more perfect society?

Asian internment camps, trail of tears, slavery, the fight against civil rights, etc, etc.

If we don't talk about it/teach it, did it actually exist?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

So how do you respond to black academics who think DiAngelo and Kendi are  race hustlers that further divide our society and are condescending and belittling to black people Are they ignorant?  Is John McWorter stupid?  Does he know less about these issues than DiAngelo?  He called her book a pile of excrement how would you respond to him? 

Look!  Four more questions!  🙄🙄🙄

[MuggsyB]

Asian internment camps, trail of tears, slavery, the fight against civil rights, etc, etc.

If we don't talk about it/teach it, did it actually exist?

Are you saying this was not taught before CRT?

[MuggsyB]

Look!  Four more questions!  🙄🙄🙄

I ask questions because you have no answer as to how the Kemdi/DiAngelo thesis or CRT  helps Anerican society with regard to racism or race relations.   It causes division as well as people who conform blindly without asking any questions.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Are you saying this was not taught before CRT?

Another question.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I ask questions because you have no answer as to how the Kemdi/DiAngelo thesis or CRT  helps Anerican society with regard to racism or race relations.   It causes division as well as people who conform blindly without asking any questions.

I don’t answer your questions because whenever anyone does, you just ask more of them…and dumber ones.

You are simply unwilling to learn. A symbol of the actual problem. Congrats!

[MuggsyB]

I don’t answer your questions because whenever anyone does, you just ask more of them…and dumber ones.

You are simply unwilling to learn. A symbol of the actual problem. Congrats!

So your rebuttal is calling people ignorant that don't agree with you.  That's a failed strategy FBM and beneath your character.