Another Black man killed by cops ... this time by accident?

[Galway Eagle]

well at least BLM and Antifa groups were out protesting and rioting over this tragic and heinous action. Oh, wait...

Aren't you a lawyer? Shouldn't you be able to recognize a logical argument vs emotional? I mean we get it you lump all of BLM and Antifa together because your wife went through a horrific situation. But have some pride in the arguments that you make for goodness sake and take a step back to be able to think "is what I'm saying logical"

[MuggsyB]

Legal or illegal, blue state or red state, accidental or intentional...reducing the insanely easy access to guns would be a good place to start.

You do realize that 40 mill legal guns were bought in 2020 alone?  And something like 40% were from 1st time owners?  It seems to me that if people actually want to talk about solutions, convincing people right now not to get a firearm is pretty much a non-starter.

As I wrote many months ago, the vilification of cops and defunding the police movement would lead to increased violent crime and homicides in our major cities.  I was called a "fearmonger" or something along those lines.  We are also seeing more and more cops targeted and yet people think they shouldn't be armed at traffic stops.   We have a President who stated they should "shoot people in the leg" during potential life and death encounters.  Lol.


I'm interested in rational solutions.  Actual laws that can be calibrated to stop criminals from getting guns and murdering innocent people.  What I've mostly read here are talking points that have a 0.0% chance of solving this horrific situation. 

What exactly are leaders in our major cities doing to quell in particular gang violence?  Why are they back on the street so easily as the Mayor of Baltimore stated?  How about we focus on the criminals in lieu of "getting rid of guns" which frankly isn't possible or an actual solution.  And if you think it a solution why aren't you proposing a blanket gun ban? 

[The Sultan]

As I wrote many months ago, the vilification of cops and defunding the police movement would lead to increased violent crime and homicides in our major cities.  I was called a "fearmonger" or something along those lines.  We are also seeing more and more cops targeted and yet people think they shouldn't be armed at traffic stops.   We have a President who stated they should "shoot people in the leg". 

Well we haven't really defunded anything, and I don't know if the "vilification of cops" has anything to do with any of this.  It seems to me that gang violence has grown significantly this year, and the cops have gotten caught up in it as well.  And let's not forget that the violent crime rate has been steadily decreasing since 1990, under both Democratic and Republican administrations, and this year would still be a minor blip of an increase compared to the progress made over the last 30 years.

[MuggsyB]

Well we haven't really defunded anything, and I don't know if the "vilification of cops" has anything to do with any of this.  It seems to me that gang violence has grown significantly this year, and the cops have gotten caught up in it as well.  And let's not forget that the violent crime rate has been steadily decreasing since 1990, under both Democratic and Republican administrations, and this year would still be a minor blip of an increase compared to the progress made over the last 30 years.

Many cops are quitting or taking early retirement.  And departments have been defunded in a bunch of places.  Again, I think we all want solutions.  Unfortunately, convincing people not to purchase guns isn't one of them.

[tower912]

Many teachers are taking early retirement.   In my oft stated opinion, for many of the same reasons.   It sucks being a scapegoat.   Both groups get scapegoated by the left and the right.   They used to be the pillars of society.   Now both are having trouble filling available positions.    I predict nursing will be next.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

You do realize that 40 mill legal guns were bought in 2020 alone?  And something like 40% were from 1st time owners?  It seems to me that if people actually want to talk about solutions, convincing people right now not to get a firearm is pretty much a non-starter.
<snip>
What exactly are leaders in our major cities doing to quell in particular gang violence?  Why are they back on the street so easily as the Mayor of Baltimore stated?  How about we focus on the criminals in lieu of "getting rid of guns" which frankly isn't possible or an actual solution.  And if you think it a solution why aren't you proposing a blanket gun ban?

Doing nothing has been the policy for quite some time now, with the results that you are seeing. Worse, the right wing has virulently opposed any and every sensible gun law proposed since the NRA has gained power.

A blanket gun ban would not work. However, there are dozens of commons sense solutions, many of them mentioned in the pages here. None of them completely eliminate the problem or reduce it 100%. All of them, especially taken in aggregate, can have significant impact in reducing gun violence.

Here is a question to ask yourself: how is it possible that being the world leader in gun violence has become a partisan issue? How is it possible that Americans, regardless of political persuasion, can look at the amount of unnecessary death and destruction and NOT say, "Yeah, we need to something about that"? Why do you think one political party has staked out a position that virtually NOTHING can or should be tried to mitigate the gun violence? Who benefits from that financially and politically?

[tower912]

Add:  thinks the solution is MORE guns.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Only an idiot would read my post and think I was making that comparison.

Your words, Chuck.

Not surprising that yet again you are casting blame for the shooting of a police officer on everyone and everything but the perpetrators.

[Galway Eagle]

Doing nothing has been the policy for quite some time now, with the results that you are seeing. Worse, the right wing has virulently opposed any and every sensible gun law proposed since the NRA has gained power.

A blanket gun ban would not work. However, there are dozens of commons sense solutions, many of them mentioned in the pages here. None of them completely eliminate the problem or reduce it 100%. All of them, especially taken in aggregate, can have significant impact in reducing gun violence.

Here is a question to ask yourself: how is it possible that being the world leader in gun violence has become a partisan issue? How is it possible that Americans, regardless of political persuasion, can look at the amount of unnecessary death and destruction and NOT say, "Yeah, we need to something about that"? Why do you think one political party has staked out a position that virtually NOTHING can or should be tried to mitigate the gun violence? Who benefits from that financially and politically?

This isn't necessarily true, my understanding is the NRA actually used to be pro gun control measures essentially till the Raegan administration when they changed over to a "zero compromise" philosophy on gun control.

Here's the article:

https://timeline.com/nra-machine-guns-1986-265cb939c77c

[Galway Eagle]

Your words, Chuck.

Not surprising that yet again you are casting blame for the shooting of a police officer on everyone and everything but the perpetrators.

I think it was pretty obvious that was a statement of what happens with guns in the home while everything prior to that was his actual argument about the shooting.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm interested in rational solutions.  Actual laws that can be calibrated to stop criminals from getting guns and murdering innocent people.  What I've mostly read here are talking points that have a 0.0% chance of solving this horrific situation.

I've seen plenty of rational suggestions in this thread and elsewhere. Just a few posts ago there was a suggestion to require a state firearms license and have a firearms registry. Are these not rational suggestions?

And if you think it a solution why aren't you proposing a blanket gun ban?

Because it's against the constitution?

How about we focus on the criminals in lieu of "getting rid of guns" which frankly isn't possible or an actual solution.

Because crime will exist as long as there is economic disparity....and never in human history has there not been economic disparity. We also have plenty of focus on criminals in our country. Our incarceration rate is higher than any other country in the world. The only country close to us is Russia. Our incarceration rate is more than double the rate of the country with the third highest incarceration rate (Saudi Arabia). You can't get rid of crime. You can make it less deadly and violent.

Australia introduced sweeping gun control reform in the late 90s/early 2000s and while studies disagree on whether or not they were the cause, the positive trends since then are undisputed. Suicide rate is down, homicide rate is down, gun related death rate is down, and after 13 mass shootings in 15 years, Australia has had 1 mass shooting in the past 25 years (3 if you count 2 domestic incidents where a single man killed his entire family). So I wouldn't say "it's not possible or an actual solution."

That being said, the USA is not Australia. Our country's culture around guns is a lot more ingrained and a similar rapid approach would not work. The best solution I can think of is to make small, strategic changes that will get guns out of the hands of more "bad guys" while not infringing on the rights of "good guys" while being smart in our education system and helping to change our youth's fascination with guns so over generations, the culture changes.

[The Sultan]

The NRA for years was basically a membership organization of hunters and target shooters that focused on gun safety.  (My wife took a gun safety class offered by the NRA when she was a kid in the 70s.)  It really did change its focus in the 1970s and 80s to be more about the unfettered access to firearms, and eventually was completely co-opted by firearms manufacturers.

[Pakuni]

Your words, Chuck.

Not surprising that yet again you are casting blame for the shooting of a police officer on everyone and everything but the perpetrators.

I've said nothing about blame for the shooting of a police officer.

Also:

[TSmith34, Inc.]

This isn't necessarily true, my understanding is the NRA actually used to be pro gun control measures essentially till the Raegan administration when they changed over to a "zero compromise" philosophy on gun control.

Here's the article:

https://timeline.com/nra-machine-guns-1986-265cb939c77c

Yes, agreed, that was what I meant by "since they gained power".

Whipping up fear and zealotry is WAY more lucrative than being a sensible middle-of-the-road organization focused on gun safety. Just ask Wayne LaPierre's tailor and jet mechanics.

[MuggsyB]

Doing nothing has been the policy for quite some time now, with the results that you are seeing. Worse, the right wing has virulently opposed any and every sensible gun law proposed since the NRA has gained power.

A blanket gun ban would not work. However, there are dozens of commons sense solutions, many of them mentioned in the pages here. None of them completely eliminate the problem or reduce it 100%. All of them, especially taken in aggregate, can have significant impact in reducing gun violence.

Here is a question to ask yourself: how is it possible that being the world leader in gun violence has become a partisan issue? How is it possible that Americans, regardless of political persuasion, can look at the amount of unnecessary death and destruction and NOT say, "Yeah, we need to something about that"? Why do you think one political party has staked out a position that virtually NOTHING can or should be tried to mitigate the gun violence? Who benefits from that financially and politically?

I agree that NOTHING isn't a solution nor should it be a partisan issue.  But states that have more stringent gun laws have criminals that will find a way to get their guns either illegally or legally.  These laws aren't working is my point.   You can talk about gun lobbyists or the political party that generally is in charge of our major cities. 

I've heard pissed off police chiefs all over the country.  Criminals are getting out too easily and committing the same heinous acts.  Mayors are not giving them the support they need in most places.  We should all be absolutely incensed about what's going on, and these are 80% black citizens.  And their lives do fking matter, why aren't we doing jack squat?  Why aren't there protests over this despicable situation?  Little kids gunned down every goddamn weekend!!  WTF?  Where's the coverage?  This is not partisan and has to stop.  It begins with taking out these gangs.

[MUBurrow]

It begins with taking out these gangs.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/09/asia/taliban-spokesperson-us-warning-intl-hnk/index.html

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I agree that NOTHING isn't a solution nor should it be a partisan issue.  But states that have more stringent gun laws have criminals that will find a way to get their guns either illegally or legally.  These laws aren't working is my point.   You can talk about gun lobbyists or the political party that generally is in charge of our major cities. 

What laws are in place but not working, exactly? And if there are some that are in place and not working, how about we write some new ones that do work?

Each time that the political party that is generally in charge of cities passes a law that attempts to deal with guns and gun violence, which party unfailingly opposes the measure and takes it to court?

Again, tell me who benefits financially and politically by making this a partisan wedge issue?

[lawdog77]

What laws are in place but not working, exactly? And if there are some that are in place and not working, how about we write some new ones that do work?

Each time that the political party that is generally in charge of cities passes a law that attempts to deal with guns and gun violence, which party unfailingly opposes the measure and takes it to court?

Again, tell me who benefits financially and politically by making this a partisan wedge issue?

Not sure how accurate this is, but here's a list:

https://stacker.com/stories/12022/gun-control-legislation-passed-and-failed-over-last-20-years

[Hards Alumni]

I agree that NOTHING isn't a solution nor should it be a partisan issue.  But states that have more stringent gun laws have criminals that will find a way to get their guns either illegally or legally.  These laws aren't working is my point.  You can talk about gun lobbyists or the political party that generally is in charge of our major cities. 

I've heard pissed off police chiefs all over the country.  Criminals are getting out too easily and committing the same heinous acts.  Mayors are not giving them the support they need in most places.  We should all be absolutely incensed about what's going on, and these are 80% black citizens.  And their lives do fking matter, why aren't we doing jack squat?  Why aren't there protests over this despicable situation?  Little kids gunned down every goddamn weekend!!  WTF?  Where's the coverage?  This is not partisan and has to stop.  It begins with taking out these gangs.

Bolded: So you agree, we should have federal laws limiting gun ownership and purchasing.  And we should have a gun registry.  Great.

Italicized:  Take the emotion out of it.  There are protests and coverage of the deaths.  You're expectation that BLM or Antifa should show up to these shows a fundamental lack of understanding of their mission.  BLM's mission is to expose the inequities that the state imposes on Black people.  Antifa exists to counter fascist movements worldwide (It's right in the name Anti-fascist).  So, now that you understand what their missions are, do you understand why they aren't doing what you think they should be doing?

[Galway Eagle]

What laws are in place but not working, exactly? And if there are some that are in place and not working, how about we write some new ones that do work?

Each time that the political party that is generally in charge of cities passes a law that attempts to deal with guns and gun violence, which party unfailingly opposes the measure and takes it to court?

Again, tell me who benefits financially and politically by making this a partisan wedge issue?

They've run gun tracing finding a lot of these guns were initially bought legally and due to too many gaps in sale regulation that they've been able to fall into criminal hands.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-met-chicago-police-paul-bauer-gun-20180228-story.html

I do not understand how anybody on the right can read this example and say that WI's laws aren't effecting the issue negatively. Especially from those that profess to be "pro cop"

As far as sensible solutions here's a couple:


I say if you own a gun you have to pay for liability insurance, it stands to reason that if guns don't kill people and people do then insurance companies will start doing major due diligence on gun owners after a few pay outs. And I don't just mean culpability for the person who fired the gun but if I'm an avid gun enthusiast in middle of nowhere WI, who sells my gun to a stand up guy at a convention, who gives it to his nephew who lends it to his sketchy friend to shoot a cop then I am still liable as the original owner. (This works for police too. If medical providers need private malpractice insurance then why doesn't another profession that holds people's lives in their hands?)

Next, remove the lawsuit protections for gun & ammo manufactures. There'd be plenty more investment in stopping mass shootings, rapid fire modifications, etc if gun manufactures had the same culpability that car manufactures do when there's safety issues.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Not sure how accurate this is, but here's a list:

https://stacker.com/stories/12022/gun-control-legislation-passed-and-failed-over-last-20-years

...I don't think that list is what you think it is. It's a list of 20 laws related to gun control that were proposed and either passed or failed (were never enacted).

There are 20 laws in this list, here's the breakdown:
3 passed laws that limit gun control (i.e. more guns)
15 failed laws that increase gun control (i.e. less guns)
2 pending laws that increase gun control (passed the house, not the senate)

It's literally a list of all the times that an attempt at gun control has been shot down

[jesmu84]

You want to reduce crime (gun-related or otherwise)?

Reduce poverty.

Take money from the top of society -> Give everyone UBI. Give everyone healthcare. Significantly improve public housing.

Within a decade, things would improve everywhere drastically.

Edit: Oh, and make access to abortions easier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect

[naginiF]

You want to reduce crime (gun-related or otherwise)?

Reduce poverty.

Take money from the top of society -> Give everyone UBI. Give everyone healthcare. Significantly improve public housing.

Within a decade, things would improve everywhere drastically.

Edit: Oh, and make access to abortions easier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect

Throw in a vastly improved education system and you've got my vote for President

[lawdog77]

...I don't think that list is what you think it is. It's a list of 20 laws related to gun control that were proposed and either passed or failed (were never enacted).

There are 20 laws in this list, here's the breakdown:
3 passed laws that limit gun control (i.e. more guns)
15 failed laws that increase gun control (i.e. less guns)
2 pending laws that increase gun control (passed the house, not the senate)

It's literally a list of all the times that an attempt at gun control has been shot down

That's exacly what I thought it was, to answer TSmiths second paragraph

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I've said nothing about blame for the shooting of a police officer.

Also:

2 replies to your inane posts and I'm a stalker?  Yet you'll argue about the color of sh!t with a cow for 3 pages?

I suppose this thread just magically happened to re-emerge the day after a cop was shot in face, yet your posts have nothing to do with that, but rather blame the guns.