The Hey its 2021 now guys MLB thread

[DegenerateDish]

Cubs only have 19 players on hand tonight in Washington, if my math is right, 11 of them are pitchers (no?).

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Cubs give Bryant away for a song.  Not even surprised.  It became more and more apparent today that this was about dumping salary as opposed to trying to strategically accrue assets for the future.

Baez and a pitcher for a prospect coming off shoulder surgery.  Yay!

Really banking on the pink hat Cubs fans to fill Wrigley through the next few seasons while treating the team like the mid 2000s Marlins.

When Epstein rebuilt the Cubs, you could see the vision.  You could see what they were trying to do.  With this firesale, no damn idea.

Today had nothing to do with dumping salary and everything to do with getting assets in return for players that weren't likely to sign extensions.  The return for Bryant was in line for a 2 month rental and Canario has plenty of upside.  Always a mistake to get too carried away, good or bad, with a return early on. 

This time hasn't been winning and wasn't going to continue to win with this core of players.  It sucks but time to start over.  The farm is now a lot better, a high draft pick likely coming next summer, and plenty of payroll flexibility. 

I'll be most interested to see what Baez, KB and Rizzo actually get on the open market.  If Baez wants $200 million, good luck.  If Rizzo really wants a comparative contract to the one Goldschmidt got, good luck. 

[CreightonWarrior]

So much for the Cubs dynasty.

[tower912]

They won their world series for this century.

[rocky_warrior]

Re: Cubs.  I can agree that I don't (yet) see a vision - but they did acquire some decent young talent for guys that 1) weren't winning together this year (and certainly didn't live up to the post 2016 hype) and 2) weren't likely to sign again in a couple months.  So I'm willing to call it a a good return for the cubs.

IMO, the biggest losses were to the bullpen, but those 3 guys probably weren't around for more than another year anyway.  So, tear it all down, and we'll see how good Jed is at putting it back together.

It's been miserable watching all these "stars" lose the past couple months.  So I'm happy to go any other direction.

And hey, at least Heyward isn't going anywhere. 

[rocky_warrior]

Cubs only have 19 players on hand tonight in Washington, if my math is right, 11 of them are pitchers (no?).

And I believe Williams and Lester were to be the starters.  Whoops.

Edit:  Hah, it's the all 3rd basemen infield:
Patrick Wisdom, 1B
David Bote, 2B
Matt Duffy, 3B
Sergio Alcantara, SS

[JWags85]

Today had nothing to do with dumping salary and everything to do with getting assets in return for players that weren't likely to sign extensions.  The return for Bryant was in line for a 2 month rental and Canario has plenty of upside.  Always a mistake to get too carried away, good or bad, with a return early on. 

This time hasn't been winning and wasn't going to continue to win with this core of players.  It sucks but time to start over.  The farm is now a lot better, a high draft pick likely coming next summer, and plenty of payroll flexibility. 

I'll be most interested to see what Baez, KB and Rizzo actually get on the open market.  If Baez wants $200 million, good luck.  If Rizzo really wants a comparative contract to the one Goldschmidt got, good luck.

I don't disagree with much of this, I meant more salary dumping in regards that they weren't going to attempt to resign any of their pricey "stars".  Canario is just ok for me.  Certainly not enough to take the sting out of a swift and complete dismantle.

Ive not been super impressed with the organization and/or FO for a bit now, so I'm sure that probably tints the perspective a bit.  Maybe they build around Contreras and Nico turns into a very good SS.

[Jockey]

Cardinals get JA Happ and John Lester, essentially cornering the market on bad, over the hill left handed starting pitchers.

Nope. Now they get to play “the Cardinal way”. We will see 2 studs in August and September.

[Pakuni]

So much for the Cubs dynasty.

Seriously.
They won a Series, and that's obviously huge, but given the young core they had 2015-2019, I think Cubs fans might be a little disappointed that they only made it to one.

[Pakuni]

I think it’s TBD if Nick Madrigal is a legit MLB starting second baseman. He’s a very good contact hitter but little else - zero power, very small and so far very fragile. Not a base stealer, questionable base running instincts, below average defensively, I would rank him pretty far down the list of second basemen. He does have years of control and may get better but he looks like a replacement level player to me. I’d rather have Hernandez and he’s no all star.

Heuer, otoh, has a lot of potential. Who knows whether he will realize it.

Bottom line, if the White Sox decide they want to trade Kimbrel in off season I don’t see why they won’t be able to get at least the equivalent of Madrigal/Heuer in return. They can make that decision later. In the meantime, they get Kimbrel for the stretch run/postseason for nothing (other than his salary).

Agree to disagree on Madrigal. He slashed .365/.420/.568 over the three weeks before he got injured. That's not evidence of zero power. While he'll never hit a lot of HRs, I think he'll develop more gap power and be a 30-double, 10-HR guy.
His defense was below par to date, but elite in college, so I'm not sure the results of his first 80 MLB games are binding.
But we'll see.

Which isn't to say I don't like the trade. I do. Hernandez makes Madrigal expendable through 2022 and I'm thrilled to see the Sox go for it.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

I don't disagree with much of this, I meant more salary dumping in regards that they weren't going to attempt to resign any of their pricey "stars".  Canario is just ok for me.  Certainly not enough to take the sting out of a swift and complete dismantle.

Ive not been super impressed with the organization and/or FO for a bit now, so I'm sure that probably tints the perspective a bit.  Maybe they build around Contreras and Nico turns into a very good SS.

Fair enough. I'll give Jed the benefit of the doubt for now that he's running his own show. Certainly no half measures taken this deadline.

I do wonder if they'll explore a Contreras trade this offseason if they can't come to an agreement on an extension. Will certainly be an interesting offseason.

2 more years of Heyward. Ugggghhh.

[WI_Inferiority_Complexes1]

Seriously.
They won a Series, and that's obviously huge, but given the young core they had 2015-2019, I think Cubs fans might be a little disappointed that they only made it to one.

It would’ve been awesome to win several World Series. But, in a sport which has seen a repeat champ since the 90’s, I think this core did pretty well.
2015: Win the WC game, win the NLDS
2016: Win the Division, Win the World Series
2017: Win the Division, win the NLDS
2018: Lose the WC
2019: eliminated from playoff contention with 5 games to go
2020: win the Division

This core of Cubs completely changed the narrative. They went from Completely Useless By September to “ha, ha, you didn’t have a dynasty!” I’ll take it.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

It would’ve been awesome to win several World Series. But, in a sport which has seen a repeat champ since the 90’s, I think this core did pretty well.
2015: Win the WC game, win the NLDS
2016: Win the Division, Win the World Series
2017: Win the Division, win the NLDS
2018: Lose the WC
2019: eliminated from playoff contention with 5 games to go
2020: win the Division

This core of Cubs completely changed the narrative. They went from Completely Useless By September to “ha, ha, you didn’t have a dynasty!” I’ll take it.

+1

Best stretch of Cubs baseball I've had the pleasure of experiencing.

[Uncle Rico]

+1

Best stretch of Cubs baseball I've had the pleasure of experiencing.

As a Brewers fan, all I want is one World Series.  More would be great, one will suffice

[shoothoops]

Cardinals get JA Happ and John Lester, essentially cornering the market on bad, over the hill left handed starting pitchers.

The Cardinals were unwilling to move Liberatore, Gorman, Walker, Thompson, Herrera, Winn. That’s who other teams would want.

They have used more than 10 starting pitchers this season. Some haven’t pitched the entire season and won’t. A few they get back soon, Mikolas, Flaherty.

Lester and Happ are called taking a low cost flyer on previously durable innings eaters. Lester is due $670,000. And the Twins are paying cash to Stl for Happ. No Dave Duncan to work the veteran pitcher magic. He’s busy fielding nightly phone calls from LaRussa about his staff.

[rocky_warrior]

Lester and Happ are called taking a low cost flyer on previously durable innings eaters.

To eat innings for a non-contending team. Interesting strategy.

[shoothoops]

To eat innings for a non-contending team. Interesting strategy.

I’m matter of factly saying what that was. Obviously they have various holes and needs to improve their team.

The Cardinals don’t tank as an organizational philosophy. They have had one losing season in over 20 years. The Cubs will have done it multiple times in that stretch. There are different ways to do things.

They have a prospect list of players that they are, and are not willing to move. They have a budget. They did have one deal that did fall through today.

Suppose they can’t always fleece Colorado in trades. They could have signed the home town kid (Scherzer)
when he was last a free agent and wanted to go there, but they didn’t want to spend that level of money. They had a deal today that fell through.

Otherwise they will try to compete with what they have and what they get back from injury, for a wild card spot until while not sacrificing 2022.

[rocky_warrior]

I’m matter of factly saying what that was.

As am I.  Not a pundit I can find that can make sense of the moves.  Only state what the organization has.   And an interesting strategy it is.

Otherwise they will try to compete with what they have and what they get back from injury, for a wild card spot until while not sacrificing 2022.

Yeah, they ain't competing for a wild card spot.  After the moves today - 2.2% chance.  As a cubs fan, I had to give up the ghost a couple weeks ago on those hopes. Probably a good time for cards fans to realize that now too.

[shoothoops]

As am I.  Not a pundit I can find that can make sense of the moves.  Only state what the organization has.   And an interesting strategy it is.

I explained it pretty clearly in my post. They literally need innings eaters, as in not having enough starters until a few injured starters come back later this season.

These are last year of their contract players that don’t cost much money. If they flop and get released, no harm done. If they have some short term success they will take it.

Cards are playing for 2022 while trying to be competitive this year. If they can make a run at the wild card, they will take it. But they don’t tank/give away/sell. And, they weren’t willing to sacrifice next year for the rest of this year.

Seems pretty easy to understand. People can agree or disagree with it, but that’s what it is.

[rocky_warrior]

I explained it pretty clearly in my post.
{snip}
Seems pretty easy to understand.
{snip}

It's easy to understand if there's any chance at the playoffs.  But there's no chance.  That's why it's not easy to understand for the real world.

[DegenerateDish]

I don’t know if there’s a baseball team constantly stuck in purgatory more than the Angels. They continually waste Trout, now also Ohtani, spend money stupidly (Pujols/Rendon), and consistently have a weak farm system.

Has to be maddening (pardon the pun) to be a fan of them.

[shoothoops]

It's easy to understand if there's any chance at the playoffs.  But there's no chance.  That's why it's not easy to understand for the real world.

Lester is making $5 Million this year. Much of that is from a signing bonus. Cards pay very little. Cards are getting cash for Happ.

In 2019, just two seasons ago, the Cardinals hovered around .500 until later July and finished 47-26. After defeating Atlanta in the playoffs they lost in the NLCS. This team isn’t too far off from this year’s team. I’ve seen this movie before, a time or two. Sometimes their 100 win teams aren’t the ones that win in the post season.

The Cardinals aren’t expected to make the playoffs. But the Cardinals are not going to tank, not going to sell, not going to give up certain prospects like a Matthew Liberatore etc..to sacrifice next season. At the same time, they will try to take a run at it. Not many teams go a few decades with one losing season, and, multiple current players have been around for multiple cycles if tank, sell, rebuild of other teams such as the Cubs.

I see you offered new specific alternative solutions in your analysis.

So that leaves them with what they did. They are going to let their young pitchers develop while taking a low to no cost flyer on a few struggling older guys
to give them some innings to keep them in the mix until some other players arrive.

[rocky_warrior]

So that leaves them with what they did.

That you fail to see any alternatives for a non contending team is highly amusing. Cheers brother.

[shoothoops]

That you fail to see any alternatives for a non contending team is highly amusing. Cheers brother.

“There are few things less productive than complaint without change.”

What I failed to see was your specific list of alternatives because up until now you don’t seem to have any. It wasn’t as though they didn’t look at various options.

You seem to be projecting and repeating yourself quite a bit. It would appear you are a Cubs fan having a tough day. I get it.

[WI_Inferiority_Complexes1]

It would appear you are a Cubs fan having a tough day. I get it.

I’ve talked to a lot of Cubs fans today and, to a person, they all sound happy with today’s results.