The Hey its 2021 now guys MLB thread

[Jockey]

Is there a league that hates its own sport more than MLB?

They've always been that way, but Manfred makes it so much worse. I don't think he's ever said or done anything that makes it look like he loves the game.

[The Sultan]

They are doing it mid-season for one basic reason. The CBA. They want the union fighting amongst themselves.

The NBA and NFL market their stars. MLB has never done that.

MLB tries to market their stars.  But when you take the big $$ that regional cable offers you, they aren't given a national platform on which to perform.  IMO this is the biggest problem with MLB marketing.  Sure its great that you earn short-term $$ watching your local team every night, but there are hardly any national games any longer.  So who do you market and how do you do it?

Is there a league that hates its own sport more than MLB?

What does this even mean?  It seems to me that other sports are perfectly fine with adopting the game to fit the marketplace, but every rule change in baseball is fraught with debates about tradition. 

[jficke13]

They've always been that way, but Manfred makes it so much worse. I don't think he's ever said or done anything that makes it look like he loves the game.

I'm always mildly amused by how much everyone seems to HATE Manfred. And here we have him ascending to some special tier of awful commissioners as though everyone doesn't loathe Goodell, to say nothing of Bettman. I'm pretty sure the entire nation of Canada pooled their maple syrup to put out a hit on Bettman during the work stoppage.

[MUBurrow]

I'm always mildly amused by how much everyone seems to HATE Manfred. And here we have him ascending to some special tier of awful commissioners as though everyone doesn't loathe Goodell, to say nothing of Bettman. I'm pretty sure the entire nation of Canada pooled their maple syrup to put out a hit on Bettman during the work stoppage.

I think what sets Manfred apart is his open contempt for his own product.  Across the other leagues, its something of a given that the commissioner's job is to be a front for ownership, and while no one likes that, it kind of is what it is.  Other commissioners are booed and everything they say is viewed with suspicion.  But Manfred seems on a whole other level.  A guy like Goodell is loathed, but he clearly views the shield with the same reverence as religious icons.  So when he misses, at least it comes from that place.  It seems like Manfred would love to be the commissioner of baseball if it werent for that whole baseball thing.

[Pakuni]

Depends on the "cheating". What most of them are complaining about is removing of EVERYTHING sans rosin.

Technically everything beyond that was "cheating" by definition but no one even the hitters considered mixing in things like sunscreen as bad. It's all about the advanced enhancers like Spider Track. But MLB decided to just go over the top.

Even the hitters want guys to have a solid grip, safer for everyone involved.

The rules ban the application of any substance to the ball. So, applying any substance to the ball is cheating. Not "technically cheating" ... just cheating. I sympathize with the pitchers in that MLB is going to strictly enforce this with virtually no warning and after taking a lax approach for years and years. But the actual rule is black and white.

[Dr. Blackheart]

The rules ban the application of any substance to the ball. So, applying any substance to the ball is cheating. Not "technically cheating" ... just cheating. I sympathize with the pitchers in that MLB is going to strictly enforce this with virtually no warning and after taking a lax approach for years and years. But the actual rule is black and white.

So, it's another "unwritten rule" of baseball?

[Pakuni]

So, it's another "unwritten rule" of baseball?

No, it's an actual written rule.
https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/upload/mlb/atcjzj9j7wrgvsm8wnjq.pdf

(c) Pitching Prohibitions
The pitcher shall not:
(1) While in the 18-foot circle surrounding the pitcher's plate, touch the ball after touching his mouth or lips, or touch his mouth or lips while he is in contact with the pitcher's plate. The pitcher must clearly wipe the fingers of his pitching hand dry before touching the ball or the pitcher's plate.
EXCEPTION:  Provided it is agreed to by both managers, the umpire prior to the start of a game played in cold weather, may permit the pitcher to blow on his hand
PENALTY:    For  violation  of  this  part  of  this  rule  the umpires shall immediately remove the ball from play and issue a warning to the pitcher. Any subsequent violation shall be called a ball.  However, if the pitch is made and a batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a hit batsman or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to the violation.  Repeat offenders shall be subject to a fine by the Office of the Commissioner.
(2) expectorate on the ball, either hand or his glove;
(3) rub the ball on his glove, person or clothing;
(4) apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball
(5) deface the ball in any manner; or
(6) deliver a ball altered in a manner prescribed by Rule 6.02(c)(2) through (5) or what is called the "shine" ball, "spit" ball, "mud" ball or "emery" ball. The pitcher is allowed to rub the ball between his bare hands.
(7)Have on his person, or in his possession, any foreign  substance.

[Dr. Blackheart]

No, it's an actual written rule.
https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/upload/mlb/atcjzj9j7wrgvsm8wnjq.pdf

(c) Pitching Prohibitions
The pitcher shall not:
(1) While in the 18-foot circle surrounding the pitcher's plate, touch the ball after touching his mouth or lips, or touch his mouth or lips while he is in contact with the pitcher's plate. The pitcher must clearly wipe the fingers of his pitching hand dry before touching the ball or the pitcher's plate.
EXCEPTION:  Provided it is agreed to by both managers, the umpire prior to the start of a game played in cold weather, may permit the pitcher to blow on his hand
PENALTY:    For  violation  of  this  part  of  this  rule  the umpires shall immediately remove the ball from play and issue a warning to the pitcher. Any subsequent violation shall be called a ball.  However, if the pitch is made and a batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a hit batsman or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to the violation.  Repeat offenders shall be subject to a fine by the Office of the Commissioner.
(2) expectorate on the ball, either hand or his glove;
(3) rub the ball on his glove, person or clothing;
(4) apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball
(5) deface the ball in any manner; or
(6) deliver a ball altered in a manner prescribed by Rule 6.02(c)(2) through (5) or what is called the "shine" ball, "spit" ball, "mud" ball or "emery" ball. The pitcher is allowed to rub the ball between his bare hands.
(7)Have on his person, or in his possession, any foreign  substance.

So, the "unwritten rule" is to ignore the written rule, like sign stealing, throwing at a batter, hollowing out your bat, center field videographers.

[Jockey]

So, the "unwritten rule" is to ignore the written rule, like sign stealing, throwing at a batter, hollowing out your bat, center field videographers.

You're wrong on some of these. There is no rule against stealing signs unless done digitally. Stealing the signs that are given by the third base coach, or those of the catcher by a baserunner on 2B, is acceptable, and it is up to the team giving the signs to protect them so they are not stolen.

It is also not illegal to hollow out a bat.

[Pakuni]

So, the "unwritten rule" is to ignore the written rule, like sign stealing, throwing at a batter, hollowing out your bat, center field videographers.

it's more like how cops (i.e. umps) won't pull you over and give you a ticket for going 5 mph over the speed limit (i.e. using mild adhesives to improve grip).
But now everyone is going 15 over the speed limit ( i.e. using stuff like spider tack) and it's getting dangerous out there (i.e. batting averages and OBP are the lowest in more than 50 years*), so now the cops are cracking down on everyone.

* Pitchers improving grips and using foreign substances aren't the only reasons for this, but it's the easiest one for MLB to control.

[The Sultan]

It seems like Manfred would love to be the commissioner of baseball if it werent for that whole baseball thing.

Again, like how?  I just don't understand this statement.

[Jockey]

Again, like how?  I just don't understand this statement.

Just off the top of my head, ..... calling the World Series trophy a hunk of metal is showing about as much disdain for MLB as is humanly possible.

[jficke13]

Just off the top of my head, ..... calling the World Series trophy a hunk of metal is showing about as much disdain for MLB as is humanly possible.

That's a bit much. It's certainly tone deaf, but "as much disdain for MLB as is humanly possible?" Apparently you have paid precious little attention to how humans usually show disdain.

I'm not a Manfred stan by any stretch btw, and it fees odd sorta defending him here, but this is sort of what I was talking about. Abject HATE for the dude.

[Pakuni]

Just off the top of my head, ..... calling the World Series trophy a hunk of metal is showing about as much disdain for MLB as is humanly possible.

Actually called it a "piece" of metal, and in context, his remarks weren't so bad. In reference to demands that the Astros be required to surrender their 2017 trophy, he said "The idea of an asterisk or asking for a piece of metal back seems like a futile act."
And he's right! The Astros giving back a trophy would have all the impact of Louisville taking down a Final Four banner ... which is to say, none at all.
There are plenty of reasons to dislike Manfred. Him "disrespecting" a trophy by correctly describing it isn't too high on the list. This isn't the Stanley Cup. Nobody waxes poetic about winning it.

[The Sultan]

Yeah, I mean I not not a Manfred hater by any means, but even I could come up with a couple of things (7 inning double headers, man on second to start the 10th) that are a lot worse than calling the WS trophy a piece of metal. 

Really though he is in a tough spot.  It's a sport with an aging fanbase and an abysmal following with the next generation of fans.  He's dealing with years of neglect in that respect.

[Jockey]

That's a bit much. It's certainly tone deaf, but "as much disdain for MLB as is humanly possible?" Apparently you have paid precious little attention to how humans usually show disdain.

I'm not a Manfred stan by any stretch btw, and it fees odd sorta defending him here, but this is sort of what I was talking about. Abject HATE for the dude.

No respect for the ultimate trophy in the game. 

Talking about future World Series to be played at neutral sites. So no respect for the traditions or fans. Now, a team's fans can attend WSGames. He would make it for rich, corporate types only.

He doesn't care about the game other than as a vehicle to make money and shows disdain for a team's loyal fans.

[Pakuni]

No respect for the ultimate trophy in the game. 

Talking about future World Series to be played at neutral sites. So no respect for the traditions or fans. Now, a team's fans can attend WSGames. He would make it for rich, corporate types only.

He literally said fans are the reason he'd be opposed to neutral sites.

The big weight on the scale in favor of our traditional format, the thing that really matters at the end of the day, are fans in home markets.


https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2020/11/3/21546657/neutral-site-world-series-is-actually-a-negative-mlb-rob-manfred

I think it would be a terrible idea, but I also don't believe the NFL has disdain for its fans for its neutral site Super Bowl, or the NCAA has disdain for fans because of neutral site playoffs and tournaments.

[Jockey]

He literally said fans are the reason he'd be opposed to neutral sites.

The big weight on the scale in favor of our traditional format, the thing that really matters at the end of the day, are fans in home markets.


https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2020/11/3/21546657/neutral-site-world-series-is-actually-a-negative-mlb-rob-manfred

I think it would be a terrible idea, but I also don't believe the NFL has disdain for its fans for its neutral site Super Bowl, or the NCAA has disdain for fans because of neutral site playoffs and tournaments.

Yet he is still considering it.

The comparison to the NFL makes no sense. They play 16 games as opposed to 162. The number of unique fans who attend NFL games and MLB is not even remotely comparable.

The NCAA has almost always played at a neutral site. It would be hard to book arenas ahead of time when it is unknown if or when a team would play. Basically, they would have to book well over 100 sites and make sure they were all done at a time when there were no other big events happening that would take up most of the hotel space in each city. On weekends.

[The Sultan]

No respect for the ultimate trophy in the game. 

Talking about future World Series to be played at neutral sites. So no respect for the traditions or fans. Now, a team's fans can attend WSGames. He would make it for rich, corporate types only.

He doesn't care about the game other than as a vehicle to make money and shows disdain for a team's loyal fans.

Where to play the World Series isn't really about "the game."  It's about Major League Baseball.

And he didn't "disrespect the trophy."  Pakuni explained it and you ignored it.

Again one can criticize the decisions, but none of this seems like him not liking baseball.

[Lennys Tap]

I'm not a Manfred stan by any stretch.

Not a Manfred Mann man either, but their covers of "Mighty Quinn" and "Blinded By The Light" we're pretty good.

[shoothoops]

Always a festive time of year in Omaha just before the beginning of the College World Series and the end of the U.S. Olympic Swim Trials.

Stanford, NC State, Arizona, Vandy, Texas, Mississippi St., Tennessee, Virginia.

Forecast looks good. Mississippi St. is seeking its first National Title in any sport. Tennessee and NC State are there as infrequent arrivals who've never won it. Vandy is seeking back to back National Titles and their 3rd in 7 years. Arizona and UVA also have a National Title this past decade. It's two time Champion Stanford's first trip in 15 years. Texas tries to add to its long past success.

Texas A&M hired TCU's Jim Schlossnagle after a long successful run in Fort Worth. LSU is still talking with candidates after Paul Mainieri retired. Ole Miss' Mike Bianco and East Carolina's Cliff Godwin are among the current candidates. Florida's Kevin O'Sullivan staying at Florida. And it appears Tony Vitello will get a but raise and facility upgrade to stay at Tennessee.

[Silent Verbal]

Yeah, I mean I not not a Manfred hater by any means, but even I could come up with a couple of things (7 inning double headers, man on second to start the 10th) that are a lot worse than calling the WS trophy a piece of metal. 

Really though he is in a tough spot.  It's a sport with an aging fanbase and an abysmal following with the next generation of fans.  He's dealing with years of neglect in that respect.

I'm an old fogey when it comes to baseball rules, but the runner on second to start the 10th is growing on me.  Extra inning games can be brutal if you're there live and want to stay for the whole game (I always do) or you're at home watching late at night.  Maybe a good compromise would be to have that runner on second starting from the 12th on?

7 inning doubleheaders are trash, though.  Completely changes the complexion of a game from the first pitch.  Why not just let teams call up 2-3 extra arms for doubleheaders, if that's what they're worried about?

[jficke13]

Yet he is still considering it.

The comparison to the NFL makes no sense. They play 16 games as opposed to 162. The number of unique fans who attend NFL games and MLB is not even remotely comparable.

The NCAA has almost always played at a neutral site. It would be hard to book arenas ahead of time when it is unknown if or when a team would play. Basically, they would have to book well over 100 sites and make sure they were all done at a time when there were no other big events happening that would take up most of the hotel space in each city. On weekends.

I don't know why I'm doing this because you're clearly in 100% Pathos territory, but...

Why shouldn't he consider options? Isn't that his job? From the sounds of it they idea was considered *and rejected*, so... why are you still mad about it? Even the decisions that have been made, like the 7 inning doubleheaders or free runner on 2nd in extras or the foreign substance ban, do you think he's just sitting in an office in New York, being struck by mad euphoric inspiration, and dashing off commandments based exclusively on his whims? He's the public face (and whipping boy) for decisions that are being made on a league-wide basis.

To the extent that you have gripes, man, I think they're probably better directed at some committee of owners and GMs, not some dastardly greedy commissioner trying to bleed money out of the sport without a care for the long term health of the game.

[The Sultan]

I don't know why I'm doing this because you're clearly in 100% Pathos territory, but...

Why shouldn't he consider options? Isn't that his job? From the sounds of it they idea was considered *and rejected*, so... why are you still mad about it? Even the decisions that have been made, like the 7 inning doubleheaders or free runner on 2nd in extras or the foreign substance ban, do you think he's just sitting in an office in New York, being struck by mad euphoric inspiration, and dashing off commandments based exclusively on his whims? He's the public face (and whipping boy) for decisions that are being made on a league-wide basis.

To the extent that you have gripes, man, I think they're probably better directed at some committee of owners and GMs, not some dastardly greedy commissioner trying to bleed money out of the sport without a care for the long term health of the game.

And I would argue that doing nothing would be much more detrimental to the long-term health of the game than trying to do something different.  Baseball has made a series of short-term decisions over the last 20 years that has undermined the long-term health of the game.  One could argue if their ideas are actually effective, but I most certainly understand why they are considering different things.

[MUBurrow]

Again, like how?  I just don't understand this statement.

"Doesn't like baseball" may be a bit nebulous but I think that Manfred views the commissioner role too narrowly, and sees his only function as countering the players union.  While a primary piece of the commisioner's role is to be the frontman for ownership vs the players, there is a PR and growing the game aspect to running a major sports league that I don't think Manfred has any interest in. Manfred's formative experience in baseball was being hired as outside labor counsel.  Once he became employed by MLB, he focused pretty much solely on labor issues until being promoted to COO only one year before he succeeded Selig.  It isn't unusual for commissioners' to get their starts in high profile legal careers in labor law, but most of those guys played significant roles other than stricly labor issues before becoming commissioners. Guys like Tagliabue-Goodell and Stern-Silver all pretty clearly understood their goal was to raise the tide first, then secure the biggest part of the gains for the league vs the players second.  Maybe I shouldn't attribute to malice what can be attirbuted to ignorance, but Manfred seems to view his role as countering the players first, second, and third, and then growing the game if he has time.