Moses Malone or James Harden?

[MuggsyB]

Clyde Drexler's 10 NBA All star appearances and championship alongside Hakeem sort of beg to differ.

But was Drexler in his prime? 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Clyde Drexler's 10 NBA All star appearances and championship alongside Hakeem sort of beg to differ.

Drexler was the first person I thought of too. Hakeem also played with a young Sam Cassell and an older Sir Charles. Ralph Sampson and Otis Thorpe were also legit players. Sampson at his prime was a star for sure and Thorpe had a few star worthy seasons in Houston.

[Jockey]

Maybe I'm not as with it in NBA circles as I should be, but is anyone underrating Hakeem?  Isn't he pretty widely regarded as a top 5ish C of all time?

Wilt, Kareem. Russell, Shaq, and Hakeem or Moses would be a pretty good top 5.

[JWags85]

Archibald and CP3 are listed at 6'0 but may be shorter.  I know Murphy put up some insane hs and college numbers. I wish there was more tape on him.  He had some serious quicks and solid elevation.

Murphy held the Rockers franchise record for assists for a long time at 4400.  Harden shattered that and finished with 4700ish in 5 less seasons.  Very different era and style of play, but also speaks to Harden's playmaking and distribution skills, despite playing next to a non scoring defensive/distributing PG in Pat Beverley, then a pure PG in Chris Paul, and then a ball dominant PG in Westbrook.

[MuggsyB]

Wilt, Kareem. Russell, Shaq, and Hakeem or Moses would be a pretty good top 5.

That's fair but I was thinking top 10-15 regardless of position.  I believe most "experts" generally rate Hakeem behind Duncan and Bryant.  In my view that's extremely debatable and I would take him ahead of TD. 

[wadesworld]

Kevin Love averaged around 24 and 14 his last 3 healthy seasons in Minnesota.  He went to Cleveland, as the 3rd option, and got moved out to the wing very often cause of Tristan Thompson and how Lebron preferred to play...and still averaged about 17 and 10 his 3 seasons with Lebron.  He played on bad teams, but dude was every bit as good as advertised.  If he had been on another good team, without Lebron, as a 1 or 2 option his stats would show it.  He's easily a top 3 stretch 4 of the recent era, I'd argue #2 behind Dirk

Exactly.  It's exactly what happened to Bosh when he joined the Heat.  He wasn't some stat seeker who was only thought to be good because his team stunk and he got to hoist the ball up whenever and wherever he wanted.  He was very, very good, he just got overshadowed by two superstars.  Both guys are Hall of Famers.

[wadesworld]

That's fair but I was thinking top 10-15 regardless of position.  I believe most "experts" generally rate Hakeem behind Duncan and Bryant.  In my view that's extremely debatable and I would take him ahead of TD.

Duncan in an absolute landslide.

[Jockey]

That's fair but I was thinking top 10-15 regardless of position.  I believe most "experts" generally rate Hakeem behind Duncan and Bryant.  In my view that's extremely debatable and I would take him ahead of TD.

OK. I thought you were talking centers only. Then I'd put Shaq, Hakeem, and Moses as borderline top 10; maybe in the 11-15 range.

[Billy Hoyle]

Hakeem, hey?

That was my initial reaction then saw this is about second best.

Duncan in an absolute landslide.

Is Duncan categorized as a PF or Center?

[GooooMarquette]

Wilt, Kareem. Russell, Shaq, and Hakeem or Moses would be a pretty good top 5.

Mostly agree, but I would include both Hakeem and Moses and drop Shaq.

[Jockey]

That was my initial reaction then saw this is about second best.


Is Duncan categorized as a PF or Center?

Generally as a PF even though he played mostly Center after the Admiral retired

[Jockey]

Mostly agree, but I would include both Hakeem and Moses and drop Shaq.

I think we forget about the young Shaq and remember the older, fatter version. Young Shaq was a great, great player.

[MuggsyB]

Duncan in an absolute landslide.

Why?  Are you saying Hakeem wouldn't have won more titles with Parker, Ginobli, and Pop?  What did Duncan do better than Hakeem?   

[GooooMarquette]

Is Duncan categorized as a PF or Center?

Duncan was most naturally a PF. I know he played lots at C especially after Robinson retired, but that wasn't his best position.

[GooooMarquette]

I think we forget about the young Shaq and remember the older, fatter version. Young Shaq was a great, great player.

He was. I actually saw him in person when he played at LSU, and I liked him a lot from the beginning. I just think Hakeem and Moses were better.

[MuggsyB]

Hakeem's stats are a little better than Duncan's.  I can see an argument for both players but it's definitely not either by a "landslide".

[JWags85]

Mostly agree, but I would include both Hakeem and Moses and drop Shaq.

Look at Shaq's stretch from 97 through the Lakers 3 peat in '02, it's as close to unstoppable as a center has ever been.  He shot 57-58% from the field every year, which is a good 5% higher than the absolute highest year for Hakeem or Moses and only touched by Kareem or Wilt.  He was absurdly efficient and a nightmare to defend.  Moses may have been the bruiser inside first, but Shaq did it even better against a lot of other very big physical centers.

[The Sultan]

Maybe I'm not as with it in NBA circles as I should be, but is anyone underrating Hakeem?  Isn't he pretty widely regarded as a top 5ish C of all time?

The question was who was second in Rockets history.

[GooooMarquette]

Look at Shaq's stretch from 97 through the Lakers 3 peat in '02, it's as close to unstoppable as a center has ever been.  He shot 57-58% from the field every year, which is a good 5% higher than the absolute highest year for Hakeem or Moses and only touched by Kareem or Wilt.  He was absurdly efficient and a nightmare to defend.  Moses may have been the bruiser inside first, but Shaq did it even better against a lot of other very big physical centers.

If you are going to pull out shooting percentages (and from a specific slice of his career) why don't we compare his FT% compared to Hakeem and Moses? Or his rebounding?

Shaq's career FT% was an abysmal 53%, and he had eight seasons where his average was below 50%. Opponents could actually take him out of close games by fouling him. Moses had a solid 76% career average, and Hakeem was a very respectable 71%.

As for rebounding, Moses had eleven seasons total (and nine straight) where he averaged more than 13 rebounds per game. Shaq only did it three times total.

As for defense, Both Moses and Hakeem were better than Shaq, and Hakeem was defensive POY twice.

I have previously said Shaq was a great player, but there is a very good case that both Malone and Hakeem were better.

[MU82]

Hakeem could step out and hit a 15-20 footer. Indeed, his 17-foot fadeaway, often after the "Hakeem Shake" was as renowned in its time as Kareem's skyhook (though I do consider the skyhook the best "I'm this player and this is MY shot" in the history of basketball).

Hakeem could do more than Shaq -- hit jumpers, hit free throws, defend. Shaq was damn good, though. I remember having a discussion with somebody during Shaq's heyday. The guy says, "All Shaq can do is dunk." And I says, "Yeah, but if he dunks 20 times a game, who cares if that's all he can do?" Moses? He's right in there, too. Difficult to choose between those 3 for me.

[MU82]

My bad rw.

Where would people slot Calvin Murphy among sub 6-footers?

All I can tell you is that he's better than my older brother. They played against each other in high school ... and my bro did not come out ahead in that matchup.

[MuggsyB]

Shaq was more dominant than Hakeem or Moses.  He literally couldn't be guarded when he was in shape but did brick FT's.  I also think he was penalized for being way stronger than anyone else and got a lot of ticky-tack fouls as he moved closer to 350 lbs. If Shaq had the mentality and competitive fire of other all-time greats he may very well have been the GOAT.  But he ate too many pizzas and binged on all sorts of junk food.  He would casually have buckets of popcorn and 20,000 cals a day.  But he's a happy go-lucky person and  was content once he won a few in LA. 

[JWags85]

If you are going to pull out shooting percentages (and from a specific slice of his career) why don't we compare his FT% compared to Hakeem and Moses? Or his rebounding?

Shaq's career FT% was an abysmal 53%, and he had eight seasons where his average was below 50%. Opponents could actually take him out of close games by fouling him. Moses had a solid 76% career average, and Hakeem was a very respectable 71%.

As for rebounding, Moses had eleven seasons total (and nine straight) where he averaged more than 13 rebounds per game. Shaq only did it three times total.

As for defense, Both Moses and Hakeem were better than Shaq, and Hakeem was defensive POY twice.

I have previously said Shaq was a great player, but there is a very good case that both Malone and Hakeem were better.

Except it's not a specific slice of his career. I just talked about his most dominant period. He has a career FG% average of 58%. The only other HOF even close is Artis Gilmore.

Moses Malone averaged 12 rebounds for his career, Shaq averaged 11. It's not like one was Rodman and the other collected the occasional board.

But fair enough, this whole discussion smacks of "my era and why it was clearly better against the 'modern' NBA" and I know enough to not get embroiled in that debate too much.  We're praising a 70% FT shooter as very respectable. That's enough for me

[MuggsyB]

All I can tell you is that he's better than my older brother. They played against each other in high school ... and my bro did not come out ahead in that matchup.

Really??  Cool. 

[Billy Hoyle]

All I can tell you is that he's better than my older brother. They played against each other in high school ... and my bro did not come out ahead in that matchup.

Ok, Chicos.   

Seriously, that's really cool.