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Author Topic: Moses Malone or James Harden?  (Read 6931 times)

MuggsyB

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Moses Malone or James Harden?
« on: January 15, 2021, 11:49:58 AM »
In recent days I have read a number of articles stating that James Harden is the 2nd best player in Rockets history.  Moses was before my time, and only played 6 yrs in Houston, but is he not a top 20 player in the history of the league?  I happened to look at his stats as a member of the Rockets, they're tremendous.  He won 2 MVP'S there and the guy was a rebounding machine.  He led them to a Finals appearance and another conf Finals.  For those of you lucky enough to see Moses am I wrong in saying he's clearly better than Harden?  Did these "experts" simply disregard winning, defense, and rebounding?  My take is that slotting Harden ahead of MM is ludicrous.

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2021, 11:53:10 AM »
You're new here, so I'll be gentle on this one....this post should be on the "superbar" board.  I'll go ahead and move it, but don't be surprised if you see posts like this automatically get whisked off to the superbar  (with no notice), or one word replies like..


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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2021, 11:54:30 AM »
Hey Mugsy, since you're new we have a separate board for non MU stuff called the superbar.

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?board=3.0

Just giving you a heads up because some posters get a little prickly about it
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2021, 12:02:34 PM »
Different eras, different positions, different players.  Moses was a great center when the game was dominated by big men.  Harden is a great guard in a game that's dominated on the outside.

I could make a case for either.

To be fair, there weren't a lot of NBA games on the TV back when Moses was with the Rockets, so I wasn't "lucky" enough to see him more than a few times.
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MU82

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2021, 12:17:50 PM »
In addition to being a great scorer, Moses Malone was the best rebounder of his time, defended fiercely and dominated games with his physical presence. As great as Dr. J was - and he was an all-timer - he didn't win an NBA title until Moses led him to the promised land. (Julius did carry two NY Nets teams to titles in the ABA, where Moses got his start as the first preps-to-pros impact player ever.)

Harden scores like nobody's business, but it really isn't all that close IMHO.

Maybe when Harden actually wins something as the focal point of a team - even a conference title - we can talk again.
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Jockey

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2021, 12:48:41 PM »
In addition to being a great scorer, Moses Malone was the best rebounder of his time, defended fiercely and dominated games with his physical presence. As great as Dr. J was - and he was an all-timer - he didn't win an NBA title until Moses led him to the promised land. (Julius did carry two NY Nets teams to titles in the ABA, where Moses got his start as the first preps-to-pros impact player ever.)

Harden scores like nobody's business, but it really isn't all that close IMHO.

Maybe when Harden actually wins something as the focal point of a team - even a conference title - we can talk again.

Agreed. It’s Moses. Harden is a really great one-on-one offensive player. But I didn’t even need to think about this.

It’s Moses and it’s not all that close.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2021, 01:03:07 PM »
Well of course its close.  That's nonsense.

Harden had more win shares per season in a Rockets uniform than Moses.  And he also won an MVP. 

And the year Moses made the Finals as a Rocket, they were 40-42 in a weak Western Conference where Magic Johnson was hurt half the year and clearly out of sorts in the playoffs.  Contrast that to the Western Conference during Harden's time with the Rockets.

I'm not saying its Harden for sure, but it is a legit argument.
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MU82

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2021, 01:22:59 PM »
Well of course its close.  That's nonsense.

Harden had more win shares per season in a Rockets uniform than Moses.  And he also won an MVP. 

And the year Moses made the Finals as a Rocket, they were 40-42 in a weak Western Conference where Magic Johnson was hurt half the year and clearly out of sorts in the playoffs.  Contrast that to the Western Conference during Harden's time with the Rockets.

I'm not saying its Harden for sure, but it is a legit argument.

We’ll agree to respectfully disagree.

Moses was a dominant player in three phases, carried a mediocre team to the Finals, and carried a great team (that had not been able to get over the hump before he arrived) to a title in one of the most dominant postseasons of any team ever.

Harden’s a great scorer.

But as you said earlier ... different players, different positions, different roles, different eras.
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4everwarriors

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2021, 01:31:55 PM »
Hakeem, hey?
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JWags85

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2021, 01:34:57 PM »
We’ll agree to respectfully disagree.

Moses was a dominant player in three phases, carried a mediocre team to the Finals, and carried a great team (that had not been able to get over the hump before he arrived) to a title in one of the most dominant postseasons of any team ever.

Harden’s a great scorer.

But as you said earlier ... different players, different positions, different roles, different eras.

Harden is also an extremely underrated passer of the ball.  For someone who is just a great scorer, he’s averaged close to 9 assists a game over the last 5 seasons and also rebounds quite well for a guard who spends most of his time on the perimeter.  I won’t laud his defense, cause it’s generally poor, but that’s due to lack of effort, cause he has exceptionally quick hands and proves to be fairly adept when he wants to be.

I’m not a huge Harden fan, and his game can be gimmicky, albeit extremely intelligent and crafty, but chalking him up to just a great scorer really does a disservice to how complete he is on the offensive end for himself, and others.

Jockey

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2021, 01:43:07 PM »
Well of course its close.  That's nonsense.

Harden had more win shares per season in a Rockets uniform than Moses.  And he also won an MVP. 

And the year Moses made the Finals as a Rocket, they were 40-42 in a weak Western Conference where Magic Johnson was hurt half the year and clearly out of sorts in the playoffs.  Contrast that to the Western Conference during Harden's time with the Rockets.

I'm not saying its Harden for sure, but it is a legit argument.

Obviously my reply was MY opinion. If you think it is a 51-49 deal, then that is your opinion.

As someone who saw Moses play maybe a hundred times, I think it is More of a 60-40 deal.

Stats aren’t everything. I remember this board when Kevin Love was traded to the Cavs. People here claimed Love was a top 10 type NBA player because of, you know, stats. In reality he was just the best player on a garbage team who was nowhere near as good as his stats said.

Harden IS a great player. I don’t think he is that close to Mo.

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2021, 01:44:23 PM »
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MuggsyB

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2021, 01:45:08 PM »
You're new here, so I'll be gentle on this one....this post should be on the "superbar" board.  I'll go ahead and move it, but don't be surprised if you see posts like this automatically get whisked off to the superbar  (with no notice), or one word replies like..


S U P E R B A R

My bad rw.

Where would people slot Calvin Murphy among sub 6-footers? 

MuggsyB

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2021, 01:48:46 PM »
Obviously my reply was MY opinion. If you think it is a 51-49 deal, then that is your opinion.

As someone who saw Moses play maybe a hundred times, I think it is More of a 60-40 deal.

Stats aren%u2019t everything. I remember this board when Kevin Love was traded to the Cavs. People here claimed Love was a top 10 type NBA player because of, you know, stats. In reality he was just the best player on a garbage team who was nowhere near as good as his stats said.

Harden IS a great player. I don%u2019t think he is that close to Mo.

It's also worth noting imo that Moses absolutely dominated an NBA Finals vs Kareem the year after leaving Houston.  My impression of MM was that he was a no nonsense/badass type player.  And not to be trifled with for any reason, ever.  I just like the guy and perhaps I am biased.  May he rest in peace.

JWags85

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2021, 01:57:35 PM »
Stats aren’t everything. I remember this board when Kevin Love was traded to the Cavs. People here claimed Love was a top 10 type NBA player because of, you know, stats. In reality he was just the best player on a garbage team who was nowhere near as good as his stats said.

Kevin Love averaged around 24 and 14 his last 3 healthy seasons in Minnesota.  He went to Cleveland, as the 3rd option, and got moved out to the wing very often cause of Tristan Thompson and how Lebron preferred to play...and still averaged about 17 and 10 his 3 seasons with Lebron.  He played on bad teams, but dude was every bit as good as advertised.  If he had been on another good team, without Lebron, as a 1 or 2 option his stats would show it.  He’s easily a top 3 stretch 4 of the recent era, I’d argue #2 behind Dirk

GooooMarquette

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2021, 02:06:53 PM »

As someone who saw Moses play maybe a hundred times, I think it is More of a 60-40 deal.



I agree with this.

Harden is a great player, but Moses was just an absolute monster inside. And his impact when far beyond stats; his inside defense was so intimidating that teams often didn't even try to go inside. And that was back when the inside game was everything.

MU82

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2021, 02:59:36 PM »
Harden is also an extremely underrated passer of the ball.  For someone who is just a great scorer, he’s averaged close to 9 assists a game over the last 5 seasons and also rebounds quite well for a guard who spends most of his time on the perimeter.  I won’t laud his defense, cause it’s generally poor, but that’s due to lack of effort, cause he has exceptionally quick hands and proves to be fairly adept when he wants to be.

I’m not a huge Harden fan, and his game can be gimmicky, albeit extremely intelligent and crafty, but chalking him up to just a great scorer really does a disservice to how complete he is on the offensive end for himself, and others.

Fair.

He is renowned as a scorer. I do know he is a fine passer, and I should not have suggested otherwise.

I'll still go with Mo, and fairly decisively. This is a nice synopsis from Gooooooooooooo:


Harden is a great player, but Moses was just an absolute monster inside. And his impact when far beyond stats; his inside defense was so intimidating that teams often didn't even try to go inside. And that was back when the inside game was everything.

And what Muggsy says is true, too. Moses Malone was a total badass!
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Jockey

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2021, 03:01:36 PM »
Kevin Love averaged around 24 and 14 his last 3 healthy seasons in Minnesota.  He went to Cleveland, as the 3rd option, and got moved out to the wing very often cause of Tristan Thompson and how Lebron preferred to play...and still averaged about 17 and 10 his 3 seasons with Lebron.  He played on bad teams, but dude was every bit as good as advertised.  If he had been on another good team, without Lebron, as a 1 or 2 option his stats would show it.  He’s easily a top 3 stretch 4 of the recent era, I’d argue #2 behind Dirk

I guess we will just disagree on this.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2021, 03:02:25 PM »
How about this.  For today's game, I would rather have Harden.  If it were 1980, I would rather have Moses.
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MuggsyB

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2021, 03:10:11 PM »
Fair.

He is renowned as a scorer. I do know he is a fine passer, and I should not have suggested otherwise.

I'll still go with Mo, and fairly decisively. This is a nice synopsis from Gooooooooooooo:

And what Muggsy says is true, too. Moses Malone was a total badass!

In the annals of NBA history it seems to me Olajuwon and MM were underrated.  Hakeem's game would have translated very well to this era.  He would absolutely shred 5's or could play stretch 4.  Plus he would eliminate easy rim runs and could switch on smalls with his quickness.  He was incredibly talented and didn't really play with a star in his prime.  I would perhaps make the case he's in the top 10 discussion, certainly top 15.  And no, I would not take Duncan ahead of him as most seem to do.

Jockey

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2021, 03:11:54 PM »
My bad rw.

Where would people slot Calvin Murphy among sub 6-footers?

Calvin had a Moses mindset in a 5’9” body. He was easily the toughest sub-6 footer ever.

Just as easily the best - unless you consider Iverson who was listed at 6’, but wasn’t.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2021, 03:25:00 PM »
In the annals of NBA history it seems to me Olajuwon and MM were underrated.  Hakeem's game would have translated very well to this era.  He would absolutely shred 5's or could play stretch 4.  Plus he would eliminate easy rim runs and could switch on smalls with his quickness.  He was incredibly talented and didn't really play with a star in his prime.  I would perhaps make the case he's in the top 10 discussion, certainly top 15.  And no, I would not take Duncan ahead of him as most seem to do.


Oh I think Hakeem would definitely have been great in this era. 
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MuggsyB

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2021, 03:29:31 PM »
Calvin had a Moses mindset in a 5’9” body. He was easily the toughest sub-6 footer ever.

Just as easily the best - unless you consider Iverson who was listed at 6’, but wasn’t.

Archibald and CP3 are listed at 6'0 but may be shorter.  I know Murphy put up some insane hs and college numbers. I wish there was more tape on him.  He had some serious quicks and solid elevation.

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2021, 03:38:44 PM »
In the annals of NBA history it seems to me Olajuwon and MM were underrated.  Hakeem's game would have translated very well to this era.  He would absolutely shred 5's or could play stretch 4.  Plus he would eliminate easy rim runs and could switch on smalls with his quickness.  He was incredibly talented and didn't really play with a star in his prime.  I would perhaps make the case he's in the top 10 discussion, certainly top 15.  And no, I would not take Duncan ahead of him as most seem to do.

Clyde Drexler's 10 NBA All star appearances and championship alongside Hakeem sort of beg to differ.
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buckchuckler

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2021, 03:53:57 PM »
In the annals of NBA history it seems to me Olajuwon and MM were underrated.  Hakeem's game would have translated very well to this era.  He would absolutely shred 5's or could play stretch 4.  Plus he would eliminate easy rim runs and could switch on smalls with his quickness.  He was incredibly talented and didn't really play with a star in his prime.  I would perhaps make the case he's in the top 10 discussion, certainly top 15.  And no, I would not take Duncan ahead of him as most seem to do.

Maybe I'm not as with it in NBA circles as I should be, but is anyone underrating Hakeem?  Isn't he pretty widely regarded as a top 5ish C of all time?

MuggsyB

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2021, 03:55:33 PM »
Clyde Drexler's 10 NBA All star appearances and championship alongside Hakeem sort of beg to differ.

But was Drexler in his prime? 

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2021, 04:03:26 PM »
Clyde Drexler's 10 NBA All star appearances and championship alongside Hakeem sort of beg to differ.

Drexler was the first person I thought of too. Hakeem also played with a young Sam Cassell and an older Sir Charles. Ralph Sampson and Otis Thorpe were also legit players. Sampson at his prime was a star for sure and Thorpe had a few star worthy seasons in Houston.
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Jockey

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2021, 04:08:57 PM »
Maybe I'm not as with it in NBA circles as I should be, but is anyone underrating Hakeem?  Isn't he pretty widely regarded as a top 5ish C of all time?

Wilt, Kareem. Russell, Shaq, and Hakeem or Moses would be a pretty good top 5.

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2021, 04:12:45 PM »
Archibald and CP3 are listed at 6'0 but may be shorter.  I know Murphy put up some insane hs and college numbers. I wish there was more tape on him.  He had some serious quicks and solid elevation.

Murphy held the Rockers franchise record for assists for a long time at 4400.  Harden shattered that and finished with 4700ish in 5 less seasons.  Very different era and style of play, but also speaks to Harden’s playmaking and distribution skills, despite playing next to a non scoring defensive/distributing PG in Pat Beverley, then a pure PG in Chris Paul, and then a ball dominant PG in Westbrook.

MuggsyB

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2021, 04:14:07 PM »
Wilt, Kareem. Russell, Shaq, and Hakeem or Moses would be a pretty good top 5.

That's fair but I was thinking top 10-15 regardless of position.  I believe most "experts" generally rate Hakeem behind Duncan and Bryant.  In my view that's extremely debatable and I would take him ahead of TD. 

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2021, 04:27:45 PM »
Kevin Love averaged around 24 and 14 his last 3 healthy seasons in Minnesota.  He went to Cleveland, as the 3rd option, and got moved out to the wing very often cause of Tristan Thompson and how Lebron preferred to play...and still averaged about 17 and 10 his 3 seasons with Lebron.  He played on bad teams, but dude was every bit as good as advertised.  If he had been on another good team, without Lebron, as a 1 or 2 option his stats would show it.  He’s easily a top 3 stretch 4 of the recent era, I’d argue #2 behind Dirk

Exactly.  It's exactly what happened to Bosh when he joined the Heat.  He wasn't some stat seeker who was only thought to be good because his team stunk and he got to hoist the ball up whenever and wherever he wanted.  He was very, very good, he just got overshadowed by two superstars.  Both guys are Hall of Famers.
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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2021, 04:30:33 PM »
That's fair but I was thinking top 10-15 regardless of position.  I believe most "experts" generally rate Hakeem behind Duncan and Bryant.  In my view that's extremely debatable and I would take him ahead of TD.

Duncan in an absolute landslide.
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Jockey

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2021, 04:34:17 PM »
That's fair but I was thinking top 10-15 regardless of position.  I believe most "experts" generally rate Hakeem behind Duncan and Bryant.  In my view that's extremely debatable and I would take him ahead of TD.

OK. I thought you were talking centers only. Then I’d put Shaq, Hakeem, and Moses as borderline top 10; maybe in the 11-15 range.

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2021, 04:48:26 PM »
Hakeem, hey?

That was my initial reaction then saw this is about second best.

 
Duncan in an absolute landslide.

Is Duncan categorized as a PF or Center?
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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2021, 04:54:19 PM »
Wilt, Kareem. Russell, Shaq, and Hakeem or Moses would be a pretty good top 5.


Mostly agree, but I would include both Hakeem and Moses and drop Shaq.

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2021, 04:54:46 PM »
That was my initial reaction then saw this is about second best.

 
Is Duncan categorized as a PF or Center?

Generally as a PF even though he played mostly Center after the Admiral retired

Jockey

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2021, 04:57:20 PM »

Mostly agree, but I would include both Hakeem and Moses and drop Shaq.

I think we forget about the young Shaq and remember the older, fatter version. Young Shaq was a great, great player.

MuggsyB

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2021, 04:58:56 PM »
Duncan in an absolute landslide.

Why?  Are you saying Hakeem wouldn't have won more titles with Parker, Ginobli, and Pop?  What did Duncan do better than Hakeem?   

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2021, 04:59:32 PM »

Is Duncan categorized as a PF or Center?



Duncan was most naturally a PF. I know he played lots at C especially after Robinson retired, but that wasn't his best position.

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2021, 05:01:24 PM »
I think we forget about the young Shaq and remember the older, fatter version. Young Shaq was a great, great player.


He was. I actually saw him in person when he played at LSU, and I liked him a lot from the beginning. I just think Hakeem and Moses were better.

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2021, 05:04:01 PM »
Hakeem's stats are a little better than Duncan's.  I can see an argument for both players but it's definitely not either by a "landslide".

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2021, 06:09:24 PM »

Mostly agree, but I would include both Hakeem and Moses and drop Shaq.

Look at Shaq’s stretch from 97 through the Lakers 3 peat in ‘02, it’s as close to unstoppable as a center has ever been.  He shot 57-58% from the field every year, which is a good 5% higher than the absolute highest year for Hakeem or Moses and only touched by Kareem or Wilt.  He was absurdly efficient and a nightmare to defend.  Moses may have been the bruiser inside first, but Shaq did it even better against a lot of other very big physical centers.

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2021, 06:24:59 PM »
Maybe I'm not as with it in NBA circles as I should be, but is anyone underrating Hakeem?  Isn't he pretty widely regarded as a top 5ish C of all time?

The question was who was second in Rockets history.
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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2021, 08:02:13 PM »

Look at Shaq’s stretch from 97 through the Lakers 3 peat in ‘02, it’s as close to unstoppable as a center has ever been.  He shot 57-58% from the field every year, which is a good 5% higher than the absolute highest year for Hakeem or Moses and only touched by Kareem or Wilt.  He was absurdly efficient and a nightmare to defend.  Moses may have been the bruiser inside first, but Shaq did it even better against a lot of other very big physical centers.



If you are going to pull out shooting percentages (and from a specific slice of his career) why don’t we compare his FT% compared to Hakeem and Moses? Or his rebounding?

Shaq’s career FT% was an abysmal 53%, and he had eight seasons where his average was below 50%. Opponents could actually take him out of close games by fouling him. Moses had a solid 76% career average, and Hakeem was a very respectable 71%.

As for rebounding, Moses had eleven seasons total (and nine straight) where he averaged more than 13 rebounds per game. Shaq only did it three times total.

As for defense, Both Moses and Hakeem were better than Shaq, and Hakeem was defensive POY twice.

I have previously said Shaq was a great player, but there is a very good case that both Malone and Hakeem were better.

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2021, 08:34:06 PM »
Hakeem could step out and hit a 15-20 footer. Indeed, his 17-foot fadeaway, often after the "Hakeem Shake" was as renowned in its time as Kareem's skyhook (though I do consider the skyhook the best "I'm this player and this is MY shot" in the history of basketball).

Hakeem could do more than Shaq -- hit jumpers, hit free throws, defend. Shaq was damn good, though. I remember having a discussion with somebody during Shaq's heyday. The guy says, "All Shaq can do is dunk." And I says, "Yeah, but if he dunks 20 times a game, who cares if that's all he can do?" Moses? He's right in there, too. Difficult to choose between those 3 for me.



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MU82

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2021, 08:36:53 PM »
My bad rw.

Where would people slot Calvin Murphy among sub 6-footers?

All I can tell you is that he's better than my older brother. They played against each other in high school ... and my bro did not come out ahead in that matchup.
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MuggsyB

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2021, 09:15:52 PM »
Shaq was more dominant than Hakeem or Moses.  He literally couldn't be guarded when he was in shape but did brick FT's.  I also think he was penalized for being way stronger than anyone else and got a lot of ticky-tack fouls as he moved closer to 350 lbs. If Shaq had the mentality and competitive fire of other all-time greats he may very well have been the GOAT.  But he ate too many pizzas and binged on all sorts of junk food.  He would casually have buckets of popcorn and 20,000 cals a day.  But he's a happy go-lucky person and  was content once he won a few in LA. 

JWags85

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2021, 10:05:47 PM »

If you are going to pull out shooting percentages (and from a specific slice of his career) why don’t we compare his FT% compared to Hakeem and Moses? Or his rebounding?

Shaq’s career FT% was an abysmal 53%, and he had eight seasons where his average was below 50%. Opponents could actually take him out of close games by fouling him. Moses had a solid 76% career average, and Hakeem was a very respectable 71%.

As for rebounding, Moses had eleven seasons total (and nine straight) where he averaged more than 13 rebounds per game. Shaq only did it three times total.

As for defense, Both Moses and Hakeem were better than Shaq, and Hakeem was defensive POY twice.

I have previously said Shaq was a great player, but there is a very good case that both Malone and Hakeem were better.

Except it’s not a specific slice of his career. I just talked about his most dominant period. He has a career FG% average of 58%. The only other HOF even close is Artis Gilmore.

Moses Malone averaged 12 rebounds for his career, Shaq averaged 11. It’s not like one was Rodman and the other collected the occasional board.

But fair enough, this whole discussion smacks of “my era and why it was clearly better against the ‘modern’ NBA” and I know enough to not get embroiled in that debate too much.  We’re praising a 70% FT shooter as very respectable. That’s enough for me

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2021, 10:24:16 PM »
All I can tell you is that he's better than my older brother. They played against each other in high school ... and my bro did not come out ahead in that matchup.

Really??  Cool. 

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2021, 11:13:27 PM »
All I can tell you is that he's better than my older brother. They played against each other in high school ... and my bro did not come out ahead in that matchup.

Ok, Chicos.   ;D ;D ;D

Seriously, that’s really cool.
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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2021, 11:34:32 PM »
The question was who was second in Rockets history.

I was responding to a comment that Hakeem was underrated. 

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2021, 08:53:04 AM »
Except it’s not a specific slice of his career. I just talked about his most dominant period. He has a career FG% average of 58%. The only other HOF even close is Artis Gilmore.

Moses Malone averaged 12 rebounds for his career, Shaq averaged 11. It’s not like one was Rodman and the other collected the occasional board.

But fair enough, this whole discussion smacks of “my era and why it was clearly better against the ‘modern’ NBA” and I know enough to not get embroiled in that debate too much.  We’re praising a 70% FT shooter as very respectable. That’s enough for me


You're right - part of it is 'my era is better than yours.' But it is fair to say that while Shaq was easily the most efficient FG shooter, Moses was the best rebounder, and Hakeem was the best defender. All very clear. And both Moses and Hakeem were much better FT shooters than Shaq. Whether or not you consider 71% 'very respectable', it is dramatically better than 53%.

Moses also had 3 MVPs, while Shaq had 1. And yes - Shaq played much of his career with guys like Jordan, Malone and Duncan. But Moses played with Kareem, Julius, Bird and Magic. Both tough periods to grab an MVP.

Anyway, great discussion. Kareem, Wilt and Russell are clearly the top three. I think it is fair to say that Moses, Hakeem and Shaq are the next three, in an order where the debate is legit.

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2021, 12:46:28 PM »
I am very fortunate to have attended many games involving the players discussed.

Hakeem was the best Rocket player ever. Easily. Quickest feet of any big man by leaps. Great passer---had to learn to share ball during NBA years, though.  His youth with team handball gave him natural good footwork. Best, off ball, shot blocker ever. UH's Guy V Lewis, a Pete Newell follower, taught Akeem Guy's patented five option foot move...further developed with the head fakes and the ball fakes ...it matured to the Dream Shake. David Robinson, that years MVP, simply was blown out by it. In most games I saw, Hakeem was simply the best player on the court--all aspects. While he was still at UH....Working downtown, we'd sneek out a few blocks during long lunches to see pickup games at Fonde Rec... including NBA Malone schooling Akeem on tough post play. Even then the kid would surprise his mentor.

I saw the other centers, too. Kareem was the best easily. He and Mikan were generational game and even rule changers (Mikan widened the lane...Lew's sky hook was in response to NCAA dunking ban) Individually ......Wilt is second ....Meshed into team concept .....Russell was second( Wilt played on lots of bad teams--3-4 guys would sag into him.)

Next was Hakeem at 4. Shaq always concedes Hakeem was the best he played... and that Hakeem was better. I put at five Shaq/ Mikan tied , examples of sheer physical dominance. Both played with nice complimentary players and had multiple Laker NBA crowns.

Malone had a very long career (HS grad to old ABA, the Rockets, 76ers). Within 6 feet he bulled and body positioned for rebounds and put backs. He was never as much of a "go to" guy as those described above. Body to body up Malone was the best ever center at such play. He was great but not an all time top 5ver, among pure centers.

In a close call Id take 2Harden over 3Malone  in a Rockets only list. We are in the middle of it now but Harden's rockets teams will go down as an evolutional step in way the NBA game is played. Harden was the total centerpiece of his teams. I recall sitting at a Bucks/Celtic playoff when it was just Kareem vs Havlicek back and forth. Harden was the same for us...surest points on the floor.

In NBA lore...Lakers, as a team (Jabbar, Mikan, Wilt, Shaq) boast best centers. Rockets (Hakeem, Malone, Yao Ming Elvin Hayes) have next best group.


My other Rocket bests (saw all of them) Yao Ming, Calvin Murphy, Elvin Hayes,  Clyde Drexler, Rudy T, Tracy McGrady Steve Francis.

My "hou warrior" name here is for my 2 alma maters ...MU undergrad and UH law. MU gave me '77 champ and UH gave me Phi Slamma Jamma agony of defeat to '83 Wolfpack. UH is now ranked at no 11 and at least sweet 16 likely. Also UH, historically,  has fed the rockets.......

Three NBATop 50 at 50 players were also ...UHers .....Hakeem, Elvin Hayes and Clyde Drexler....all also then played for the Rockets

« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 12:59:51 PM by houwarrior »
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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2021, 01:08:33 PM »
Thanks houwarrior, especially for the lengthy reminder of Hakeem’s game. I had remembered his incredible quickness for a big guy and fantastic defense, but had forgotten his midrange game (and the Dream Shake). His game was so much different than any other true 5 I have ever seen.

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2021, 01:20:21 PM »
Houwarrior, did you get a chance to watch Hakeem in college?

In 50 years of watching, I have never seen a player improve as much in a short period of time. Even from the beginning to the end of his 1st year at Houston, he went from an unknown to a future NBA star.

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2021, 01:31:58 PM »
Houwarrior, did you get a chance to watch Hakeem in college?

In 50 years of watching, I have never seen a player improve as much in a short period of time. Even from the beginning to the end of his 1st year at Houston, he went from an unknown to a future NBA star.


Agreed. That was also such a fun team to watch as a whole. Hakeem, Young, Drexler, Micheaux...

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2021, 07:37:18 PM »
Houwarrior, did you get a chance to watch Hakeem in college?

In 50 years of watching, I have never seen a player improve as much in a short period of time. Even from the beginning to the end of his 1st year at Houston, he went from an unknown to a future NBA star.

I love the story of how Akeem (then) ended up at Houston. He flew to JFK to play for St John’s but no coach showed up to pick him up. He had two other tickets, Houston and Louisville. He asked a Nigerian dude working at at JFK which city was warmer and was told Houston. UH didn’t even know he was coming and had him take a taxi to campus!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 09:36:10 PM by Billy Hoyle »
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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2021, 08:19:49 PM »
I love the story of how Akeem (then) ended up at Houston. He flew to JFK to play for St John’s but no coach showed up to pick him up. He had two other tickets, Houston and Louisville. He asked a Nigerian dude working at at JKF which city was warmer and was told Houston. UH didn’t even know he was coming and had him take a taxi to campus!


Awesome! Too bad he didn’t have a ticket to Milwaukee and meet a wiseass at JFK.

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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2021, 05:12:30 PM »
I love the story of how Akeem (then) ended up at Houston. He flew to JFK to play for St John’s but no coach showed up to pick him up. He had two other tickets, Houston and Louisville. He asked a Nigerian dude working at at JFK which city was warmer and was told Houston. UH didn’t even know he was coming and had him take a taxi to campus!
Late in his coaching career, HOFer Guy V Lewis was a lawsuit client of mine, along with Dan Spika, a former N Texas BB coach and then TV colorman for SW conf BB TV on TBN.  I billed Guy less than I spent on our many client lunches, during which I would simply listen to those two share stories on college BB. Living oral history of BB sessions--great stuff

Your Akeem story is pretty close to the way Guy tells it. Akeem was going to NY to visit St Johns...however, he was by no means set to play there. He had not yet committed to any school. A free lance scout in Africa (aka runner) simply had "arranged", very haphazardly,  for Akeem to make some USA school informal visits.

Guy had heard second hand of a kid from Nigeria coming into town, and claimed he even sent an asst   to meet him...but the schedule timing got crossed up....
...So, yes,  as you note... Akeem arrives here with no one to meet him, and he called the UH BB office ....Guy dispatched a backup crew of Michael Young and another player Davis to run and get him. Young fetched him over to Hofheinz. Guy never met Akeem until he was at UH. They worked him out for less than an hour and moved to lock him in that day.

We all recall the new kid's first games at UH (I was in UH law school at the time)...Akeem knew nothing of positioning, lower block play etc but wow ...the ole soccer goalie/ team handballer loved to leap and block shots....He got many rebounds... but only by out jumping and out reaching nearby players.

Guy V was a "big" man in his collegiate days and said he spent many many extra hours with Akeem personally coaching him up. Seems likely, as from his first game to the Georgetown NCAA final vs Patrick Ewing, his final UH game, Akeem improved from totally raw project to the overall No 1 NBA pick.

Id give Guy most of the credit for Akeem's skills improvement, and Mo Malone extra credit for teaching him body up post play, at Fonde Rec. Give Hakeem credit too...even during his NBA years he'd work hard in the off season to add new skills...a player who clearly improved over the course of his career
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 05:20:46 PM by houwarrior »
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Re: Moses Malone or James Harden?
« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2021, 05:18:30 PM »
Great “insider” info, Houwarrior.