Moses Malone or James Harden?

[MuggsyB]

In recent days I have read a number of articles stating that James Harden is the 2nd best player in Rockets history.  Moses was before my time, and only played 6 yrs in Houston, but is he not a top 20 player in the history of the league?  I happened to look at his stats as a member of the Rockets, they're tremendous.  He won 2 MVP'S there and the guy was a rebounding machine.  He led them to a Finals appearance and another conf Finals.  For those of you lucky enough to see Moses am I wrong in saying he's clearly better than Harden?  Did these "experts" simply disregard winning, defense, and rebounding?  My take is that slotting Harden ahead of MM is ludicrous.

[rocky_warrior]

You're new here, so I'll be gentle on this one....this post should be on the "superbar" board.  I'll go ahead and move it, but don't be surprised if you see posts like this automatically get whisked off to the superbar  (with no notice), or one word replies like..


S U P E R B A R

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Hey Mugsy, since you're new we have a separate board for non MU stuff called the superbar.

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?board=3.0

Just giving you a heads up because some posters get a little prickly about it

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Different eras, different positions, different players.  Moses was a great center when the game was dominated by big men.  Harden is a great guard in a game that's dominated on the outside.

I could make a case for either.

To be fair, there weren't a lot of NBA games on the TV back when Moses was with the Rockets, so I wasn't "lucky" enough to see him more than a few times.

[MU82]

In addition to being a great scorer, Moses Malone was the best rebounder of his time, defended fiercely and dominated games with his physical presence. As great as Dr. J was - and he was an all-timer - he didn't win an NBA title until Moses led him to the promised land. (Julius did carry two NY Nets teams to titles in the ABA, where Moses got his start as the first preps-to-pros impact player ever.)

Harden scores like nobody's business, but it really isn't all that close IMHO.

Maybe when Harden actually wins something as the focal point of a team - even a conference title - we can talk again.

[Jockey]

In addition to being a great scorer, Moses Malone was the best rebounder of his time, defended fiercely and dominated games with his physical presence. As great as Dr. J was - and he was an all-timer - he didn't win an NBA title until Moses led him to the promised land. (Julius did carry two NY Nets teams to titles in the ABA, where Moses got his start as the first preps-to-pros impact player ever.)

Harden scores like nobody's business, but it really isn't all that close IMHO.

Maybe when Harden actually wins something as the focal point of a team - even a conference title - we can talk again.

Agreed. It’s Moses. Harden is a really great one-on-one offensive player. But I didn’t even need to think about this.

It’s Moses and it’s not all that close.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Well of course its close.  That's nonsense.

Harden had more win shares per season in a Rockets uniform than Moses.  And he also won an MVP. 

And the year Moses made the Finals as a Rocket, they were 40-42 in a weak Western Conference where Magic Johnson was hurt half the year and clearly out of sorts in the playoffs.  Contrast that to the Western Conference during Harden's time with the Rockets.

I'm not saying its Harden for sure, but it is a legit argument.

[MU82]

Well of course its close.  That's nonsense.

Harden had more win shares per season in a Rockets uniform than Moses.  And he also won an MVP. 

And the year Moses made the Finals as a Rocket, they were 40-42 in a weak Western Conference where Magic Johnson was hurt half the year and clearly out of sorts in the playoffs.  Contrast that to the Western Conference during Harden's time with the Rockets.

I'm not saying its Harden for sure, but it is a legit argument.

We’ll agree to respectfully disagree.

Moses was a dominant player in three phases, carried a mediocre team to the Finals, and carried a great team (that had not been able to get over the hump before he arrived) to a title in one of the most dominant postseasons of any team ever.

Harden’s a great scorer.

But as you said earlier ... different players, different positions, different roles, different eras.

[4everwarriors]

Hakeem, hey?

[JWags85]

We’ll agree to respectfully disagree.

Moses was a dominant player in three phases, carried a mediocre team to the Finals, and carried a great team (that had not been able to get over the hump before he arrived) to a title in one of the most dominant postseasons of any team ever.

Harden’s a great scorer.

But as you said earlier ... different players, different positions, different roles, different eras.

Harden is also an extremely underrated passer of the ball.  For someone who is just a great scorer, he’s averaged close to 9 assists a game over the last 5 seasons and also rebounds quite well for a guard who spends most of his time on the perimeter.  I won’t laud his defense, cause it’s generally poor, but that’s due to lack of effort, cause he has exceptionally quick hands and proves to be fairly adept when he wants to be.

I’m not a huge Harden fan, and his game can be gimmicky, albeit extremely intelligent and crafty, but chalking him up to just a great scorer really does a disservice to how complete he is on the offensive end for himself, and others.

[Jockey]

Well of course its close.  That's nonsense.

Harden had more win shares per season in a Rockets uniform than Moses.  And he also won an MVP. 

And the year Moses made the Finals as a Rocket, they were 40-42 in a weak Western Conference where Magic Johnson was hurt half the year and clearly out of sorts in the playoffs.  Contrast that to the Western Conference during Harden's time with the Rockets.

I'm not saying its Harden for sure, but it is a legit argument.

Obviously my reply was MY opinion. If you think it is a 51-49 deal, then that is your opinion.

As someone who saw Moses play maybe a hundred times, I think it is More of a 60-40 deal.

Stats aren’t everything. I remember this board when Kevin Love was traded to the Cavs. People here claimed Love was a top 10 type NBA player because of, you know, stats. In reality he was just the best player on a garbage team who was nowhere near as good as his stats said.

Harden IS a great player. I don’t think he is that close to Mo.

[Galway Eagle]

Hakeem, hey?

+1

[MuggsyB]

You're new here, so I'll be gentle on this one....this post should be on the "superbar" board.  I'll go ahead and move it, but don't be surprised if you see posts like this automatically get whisked off to the superbar  (with no notice), or one word replies like..


S U P E R B A R

My bad rw.

Where would people slot Calvin Murphy among sub 6-footers? 

[MuggsyB]

Obviously my reply was MY opinion. If you think it is a 51-49 deal, then that is your opinion.

As someone who saw Moses play maybe a hundred times, I think it is More of a 60-40 deal.

Stats aren%u2019t everything. I remember this board when Kevin Love was traded to the Cavs. People here claimed Love was a top 10 type NBA player because of, you know, stats. In reality he was just the best player on a garbage team who was nowhere near as good as his stats said.

Harden IS a great player. I don%u2019t think he is that close to Mo.

It's also worth noting imo that Moses absolutely dominated an NBA Finals vs Kareem the year after leaving Houston.  My impression of MM was that he was a no nonsense/badass type player.  And not to be trifled with for any reason, ever.  I just like the guy and perhaps I am biased.  May he rest in peace.

[JWags85]

Stats aren’t everything. I remember this board when Kevin Love was traded to the Cavs. People here claimed Love was a top 10 type NBA player because of, you know, stats. In reality he was just the best player on a garbage team who was nowhere near as good as his stats said.

Kevin Love averaged around 24 and 14 his last 3 healthy seasons in Minnesota.  He went to Cleveland, as the 3rd option, and got moved out to the wing very often cause of Tristan Thompson and how Lebron preferred to play...and still averaged about 17 and 10 his 3 seasons with Lebron.  He played on bad teams, but dude was every bit as good as advertised.  If he had been on another good team, without Lebron, as a 1 or 2 option his stats would show it.  He’s easily a top 3 stretch 4 of the recent era, I’d argue #2 behind Dirk

[GooooMarquette]

As someone who saw Moses play maybe a hundred times, I think it is More of a 60-40 deal.

I agree with this.

Harden is a great player, but Moses was just an absolute monster inside. And his impact when far beyond stats; his inside defense was so intimidating that teams often didn't even try to go inside. And that was back when the inside game was everything.

[MU82]

Harden is also an extremely underrated passer of the ball.  For someone who is just a great scorer, he’s averaged close to 9 assists a game over the last 5 seasons and also rebounds quite well for a guard who spends most of his time on the perimeter.  I won’t laud his defense, cause it’s generally poor, but that’s due to lack of effort, cause he has exceptionally quick hands and proves to be fairly adept when he wants to be.

I’m not a huge Harden fan, and his game can be gimmicky, albeit extremely intelligent and crafty, but chalking him up to just a great scorer really does a disservice to how complete he is on the offensive end for himself, and others.

Fair.

He is renowned as a scorer. I do know he is a fine passer, and I should not have suggested otherwise.

I'll still go with Mo, and fairly decisively. This is a nice synopsis from Gooooooooooooo:

Harden is a great player, but Moses was just an absolute monster inside. And his impact when far beyond stats; his inside defense was so intimidating that teams often didn't even try to go inside. And that was back when the inside game was everything.

And what Muggsy says is true, too. Moses Malone was a total badass!

[Jockey]

Kevin Love averaged around 24 and 14 his last 3 healthy seasons in Minnesota.  He went to Cleveland, as the 3rd option, and got moved out to the wing very often cause of Tristan Thompson and how Lebron preferred to play...and still averaged about 17 and 10 his 3 seasons with Lebron.  He played on bad teams, but dude was every bit as good as advertised.  If he had been on another good team, without Lebron, as a 1 or 2 option his stats would show it.  He’s easily a top 3 stretch 4 of the recent era, I’d argue #2 behind Dirk

I guess we will just disagree on this.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

How about this.  For today's game, I would rather have Harden.  If it were 1980, I would rather have Moses.

[MuggsyB]

Fair.

He is renowned as a scorer. I do know he is a fine passer, and I should not have suggested otherwise.

I'll still go with Mo, and fairly decisively. This is a nice synopsis from Gooooooooooooo:

And what Muggsy says is true, too. Moses Malone was a total badass!

In the annals of NBA history it seems to me Olajuwon and MM were underrated.  Hakeem's game would have translated very well to this era.  He would absolutely shred 5's or could play stretch 4.  Plus he would eliminate easy rim runs and could switch on smalls with his quickness.  He was incredibly talented and didn't really play with a star in his prime.  I would perhaps make the case he's in the top 10 discussion, certainly top 15.  And no, I would not take Duncan ahead of him as most seem to do.

[Jockey]

My bad rw.

Where would people slot Calvin Murphy among sub 6-footers?

Calvin had a Moses mindset in a 5’9” body. He was easily the toughest sub-6 footer ever.

Just as easily the best - unless you consider Iverson who was listed at 6’, but wasn’t.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

In the annals of NBA history it seems to me Olajuwon and MM were underrated.  Hakeem's game would have translated very well to this era.  He would absolutely shred 5's or could play stretch 4.  Plus he would eliminate easy rim runs and could switch on smalls with his quickness.  He was incredibly talented and didn't really play with a star in his prime.  I would perhaps make the case he's in the top 10 discussion, certainly top 15.  And no, I would not take Duncan ahead of him as most seem to do.

Oh I think Hakeem would definitely have been great in this era. 

[MuggsyB]

Calvin had a Moses mindset in a 5’9” body. He was easily the toughest sub-6 footer ever.

Just as easily the best - unless you consider Iverson who was listed at 6’, but wasn’t.

Archibald and CP3 are listed at 6'0 but may be shorter.  I know Murphy put up some insane hs and college numbers. I wish there was more tape on him.  He had some serious quicks and solid elevation.

[Galway Eagle]

In the annals of NBA history it seems to me Olajuwon and MM were underrated.  Hakeem's game would have translated very well to this era.  He would absolutely shred 5's or could play stretch 4.  Plus he would eliminate easy rim runs and could switch on smalls with his quickness.  He was incredibly talented and didn't really play with a star in his prime.  I would perhaps make the case he's in the top 10 discussion, certainly top 15.  And no, I would not take Duncan ahead of him as most seem to do.

Clyde Drexler's 10 NBA All star appearances and championship alongside Hakeem sort of beg to differ.

[buckchuckler]

In the annals of NBA history it seems to me Olajuwon and MM were underrated.  Hakeem's game would have translated very well to this era.  He would absolutely shred 5's or could play stretch 4.  Plus he would eliminate easy rim runs and could switch on smalls with his quickness.  He was incredibly talented and didn't really play with a star in his prime.  I would perhaps make the case he's in the top 10 discussion, certainly top 15.  And no, I would not take Duncan ahead of him as most seem to do.

Maybe I'm not as with it in NBA circles as I should be, but is anyone underrating Hakeem?  Isn't he pretty widely regarded as a top 5ish C of all time?