Moses Malone or James Harden?

[buckchuckler]

The question was who was second in Rockets history.

I was responding to a comment that Hakeem was underrated. 

[GooooMarquette]

Except it’s not a specific slice of his career. I just talked about his most dominant period. He has a career FG% average of 58%. The only other HOF even close is Artis Gilmore.

Moses Malone averaged 12 rebounds for his career, Shaq averaged 11. It’s not like one was Rodman and the other collected the occasional board.

But fair enough, this whole discussion smacks of “my era and why it was clearly better against the ‘modern’ NBA” and I know enough to not get embroiled in that debate too much.  We’re praising a 70% FT shooter as very respectable. That’s enough for me

You're right - part of it is 'my era is better than yours.' But it is fair to say that while Shaq was easily the most efficient FG shooter, Moses was the best rebounder, and Hakeem was the best defender. All very clear. And both Moses and Hakeem were much better FT shooters than Shaq. Whether or not you consider 71% 'very respectable', it is dramatically better than 53%.

Moses also had 3 MVPs, while Shaq had 1. And yes - Shaq played much of his career with guys like Jordan, Malone and Duncan. But Moses played with Kareem, Julius, Bird and Magic. Both tough periods to grab an MVP.

Anyway, great discussion. Kareem, Wilt and Russell are clearly the top three. I think it is fair to say that Moses, Hakeem and Shaq are the next three, in an order where the debate is legit.

[HouWarrior]

I am very fortunate to have attended many games involving the players discussed.

Hakeem was the best Rocket player ever. Easily. Quickest feet of any big man by leaps. Great passer---had to learn to share ball during NBA years, though.  His youth with team handball gave him natural good footwork. Best, off ball, shot blocker ever. UH's Guy V Lewis, a Pete Newell follower, taught Akeem Guy's patented five option foot move...further developed with the head fakes and the ball fakes ...it matured to the Dream Shake. David Robinson, that years MVP, simply was blown out by it. In most games I saw, Hakeem was simply the best player on the court--all aspects. While he was still at UH....Working downtown, we'd sneek out a few blocks during long lunches to see pickup games at Fonde Rec... including NBA Malone schooling Akeem on tough post play. Even then the kid would surprise his mentor.

I saw the other centers, too. Kareem was the best easily. He and Mikan were generational game and even rule changers (Mikan widened the lane...Lew's sky hook was in response to NCAA dunking ban) Individually ......Wilt is second ....Meshed into team concept .....Russell was second( Wilt played on lots of bad teams--3-4 guys would sag into him.)

Next was Hakeem at 4. Shaq always concedes Hakeem was the best he played... and that Hakeem was better. I put at five Shaq/ Mikan tied , examples of sheer physical dominance. Both played with nice complimentary players and had multiple Laker NBA crowns.

Malone had a very long career (HS grad to old ABA, the Rockets, 76ers). Within 6 feet he bulled and body positioned for rebounds and put backs. He was never as much of a "go to" guy as those described above. Body to body up Malone was the best ever center at such play. He was great but not an all time top 5ver, among pure centers.

In a close call Id take 2Harden over 3Malone  in a Rockets only list. We are in the middle of it now but Harden's rockets teams will go down as an evolutional step in way the NBA game is played. Harden was the total centerpiece of his teams. I recall sitting at a Bucks/Celtic playoff when it was just Kareem vs Havlicek back and forth. Harden was the same for us...surest points on the floor.

In NBA lore...Lakers, as a team (Jabbar, Mikan, Wilt, Shaq) boast best centers. Rockets (Hakeem, Malone, Yao Ming Elvin Hayes) have next best group.


My other Rocket bests (saw all of them) Yao Ming, Calvin Murphy, Elvin Hayes,  Clyde Drexler, Rudy T, Tracy McGrady Steve Francis.

My "hou warrior" name here is for my 2 alma maters ...MU undergrad and UH law. MU gave me '77 champ and UH gave me Phi Slamma Jamma agony of defeat to '83 Wolfpack. UH is now ranked at no 11 and at least sweet 16 likely. Also UH, historically,  has fed the rockets.......

Three NBATop 50 at 50 players were also ...UHers .....Hakeem, Elvin Hayes and Clyde Drexler....all also then played for the Rockets

[GooooMarquette]

Thanks houwarrior, especially for the lengthy reminder of Hakeem’s game. I had remembered his incredible quickness for a big guy and fantastic defense, but had forgotten his midrange game (and the Dream Shake). His game was so much different than any other true 5 I have ever seen.

[Jockey]

Houwarrior, did you get a chance to watch Hakeem in college?

In 50 years of watching, I have never seen a player improve as much in a short period of time. Even from the beginning to the end of his 1st year at Houston, he went from an unknown to a future NBA star.

[GooooMarquette]

Houwarrior, did you get a chance to watch Hakeem in college?

In 50 years of watching, I have never seen a player improve as much in a short period of time. Even from the beginning to the end of his 1st year at Houston, he went from an unknown to a future NBA star.

Agreed. That was also such a fun team to watch as a whole. Hakeem, Young, Drexler, Micheaux...

[Billy Hoyle]

Houwarrior, did you get a chance to watch Hakeem in college?

In 50 years of watching, I have never seen a player improve as much in a short period of time. Even from the beginning to the end of his 1st year at Houston, he went from an unknown to a future NBA star.

I love the story of how Akeem (then) ended up at Houston. He flew to JFK to play for St John’s but no coach showed up to pick him up. He had two other tickets, Houston and Louisville. He asked a Nigerian dude working at at JFK which city was warmer and was told Houston. UH didn’t even know he was coming and had him take a taxi to campus!

[GooooMarquette]

I love the story of how Akeem (then) ended up at Houston. He flew to JFK to play for St John’s but no coach showed up to pick him up. He had two other tickets, Houston and Louisville. He asked a Nigerian dude working at at JKF which city was warmer and was told Houston. UH didn’t even know he was coming and had him take a taxi to campus!

Awesome! Too bad he didn’t have a ticket to Milwaukee and meet a wiseass at JFK.

[HouWarrior]

I love the story of how Akeem (then) ended up at Houston. He flew to JFK to play for St John’s but no coach showed up to pick him up. He had two other tickets, Houston and Louisville. He asked a Nigerian dude working at at JFK which city was warmer and was told Houston. UH didn’t even know he was coming and had him take a taxi to campus!

Late in his coaching career, HOFer Guy V Lewis was a lawsuit client of mine, along with Dan Spika, a former N Texas BB coach and then TV colorman for SW conf BB TV on TBN.  I billed Guy less than I spent on our many client lunches, during which I would simply listen to those two share stories on college BB. Living oral history of BB sessions--great stuff

Your Akeem story is pretty close to the way Guy tells it. Akeem was going to NY to visit St Johns...however, he was by no means set to play there. He had not yet committed to any school. A free lance scout in Africa (aka runner) simply had "arranged", very haphazardly,  for Akeem to make some USA school informal visits.

Guy had heard second hand of a kid from Nigeria coming into town, and claimed he even sent an asst   to meet him...but the schedule timing got crossed up....
...So, yes,  as you note... Akeem arrives here with no one to meet him, and he called the UH BB office ....Guy dispatched a backup crew of Michael Young and another player Davis to run and get him. Young fetched him over to Hofheinz. Guy never met Akeem until he was at UH. They worked him out for less than an hour and moved to lock him in that day.

We all recall the new kid's first games at UH (I was in UH law school at the time)...Akeem knew nothing of positioning, lower block play etc but wow ...the ole soccer goalie/ team handballer loved to leap and block shots....He got many rebounds... but only by out jumping and out reaching nearby players.

Guy V was a "big" man in his collegiate days and said he spent many many extra hours with Akeem personally coaching him up. Seems likely, as from his first game to the Georgetown NCAA final vs Patrick Ewing, his final UH game, Akeem improved from totally raw project to the overall No 1 NBA pick.

Id give Guy most of the credit for Akeem's skills improvement, and Mo Malone extra credit for teaching him body up post play, at Fonde Rec. Give Hakeem credit too...even during his NBA years he'd work hard in the off season to add new skills...a player who clearly improved over the course of his career

[Jockey]

Great “insider” info, Houwarrior.