Wisconsin Basketball Subculture?

[silverback]

Hello.

On a couple occasions, I read remarks here about the Wisconsin high school basketball subculture. Apologies that I don't recall the topic or the post, but the insinuation was that the Ellensons and the Hausers of the world came out of an ugly athletic environment. Most recently, the hint was MU's current high end freshmen are less likely to bail out early because they were not WI hoops kids.

I'm intrigued as to the why, what, how. Did I misread the implications?

Thank you for any information.

[Shooter McGavin]

You did not misread.  This was implied multiple times by vogue65 as a stumbling block Wojo needed to overcome to build a "program".  I'm curious about what he meant by this as well.

Is it not good to keep the best kids from Wisconsin home? Are they more likely to transfer and be disgruntled because they are from Wisconsin?  Are too many people in their ear regarding playing time?

I could see too much access to players from outside the program being an issue but would like more of an explanation as well.

[The Sultan]

A helpful hint: vogue says a lot of weird sh*t.

[tower912]

Testify.    I doubt Wisconsin is any different than anywhere else.   

[#UnleashSean]

It all stems from one old man yelling at clouds about a "program building"

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I don't know what posts the OP is referring to (I tend to skim past Vogue's posts), but I have heard from people in athletics all over the country that there is a value to getting out of state players. What I've been told is that local players tend to have more people around them who have a disproportionate amount of influence on them, family, extended family, friends from high school, former coaches, etc. This is great from a support system perspective but it only takes one Tim Maymon in the bunch to make things go sideways. What I've heard is that a lot of coaches value out of state players because they don't have as many other influences whispering in their ear (and the ones there is literal distance between the player and the ones they do have), their coach is the main person that they are going to for everything. Makes it easier to install the program culture into the player. Honestly, its a tad bit controlling and manipulative way to to look at things but I think all coaches have a little control freak in them.

This is NOT unique to Wisconsin in any way. Personally, from working at universities across the country, I have seen multiple examples of the local high school hero flaming out at their local university because the friends or family that got them into trouble (trouble in the general sense, not necessarily the legal sense) in high school got them into trouble in college too.

[vogue65]

Hello.

On a couple occasions, I read remarks here about the Wisconsin high school basketball subculture. Apologies that I don't recall the topic or the post, but the insinuation was that the Ellensons and the Hausers of the world came out of an ugly athletic environment. Most recently, the hint was MU's current high end freshmen are less likely to bail out early because they were not WI hoops kids.

I'm intrigued as to the why, what, how. Did I misread the implications?

Thank you for any information.

Here I am, hi!
Three strikes and you are out.
Wisconsin has let Marquette down, three times.
No way to build a program.

Ignore the obvious at your peril.

How would the Packers do if they relied on Wisconsin for their stars?

[shoothoops]

I don't know what posts the OP is referring to (I tend to skim past Vogue's posts), but I have heard from people in athletics all over the country that there is a value to getting out of state players. What I've been told is that local players tend to have more people around them who have a disproportionate amount of influence on them, family, extended family, friends from high school, former coaches, etc. This is great from a support system perspective but it only takes one Tim Maymon in the bunch to make things go sideways. What I've heard is that a lot of coaches value out of state players because they don't have as many other influences whispering in their ear (and the ones there is literal distance between the player and the ones they do have), their coach is the main person that they are going to for everything. Makes it easier to install the program culture into the player. Honestly, its a tad bit controlling and manipulative way to to look at things but I think all coaches have a little control freak in them.

This is NOT unique to Wisconsin in any way. Personally, from working at universities across the country, I have seen multiple examples of the local high school hero flaming out at their local university because the friends or family that got them into trouble (trouble in the general sense, not necessarily the legal sense) in high school got them into trouble in college too.

It all depends on the individual recruit, in an individual situation. Some recruits would thrive locally, or regionally. Other recruits would not. Being good at identifying early who would and wouldn't be successful as a local recruit is helpful in recruiting.

I am of the opinion that recruiting is local, regional, national, international, geographically. All of the above. Some teams will have different mix percentages than others.

And, recruiting subcultures if you will, are not state specific. It's any state USA. It is common to see some, but not all, and not necessarily most local fans be overly interested in having as many local players on the team as possible. Parochial and provincial mindsets are a thing with some people, but not others.

[vogue65]

I don't know what posts the OP is referring to (I tend to skim past Vogue's posts), but I have heard from people in athletics all over the country that there is a value to getting out of state players. What I've been told is that local players tend to have more people around them who have a disproportionate amount of influence on them, family, extended family, friends from high school, former coaches, etc. This is great from a support system perspective but it only takes one Tim Maymon in the bunch to make things go sideways. What I've heard is that a lot of coaches value out of state players because they don't have as many other influences whispering in their ear (and the ones there is literal distance between the player and the ones they do have), their coach is the main person that they are going to for everything. Makes it easier to install the program culture into the player. Honestly, its a tad bit controlling and manipulative way to to look at things but I think all coaches have a little control freak in them.

This is NOT unique to Wisconsin in any way. Personally, from working at universities across the country, I have seen multiple examples of the local high school hero flaming out at their local university because the friends or family that got them into trouble (trouble in the general sense, not necessarily the legal sense) in high school got them into trouble in college too.

Thanks TAMU, some people take everything personally.
Inferiority complexes are hard to overcome.
I'm just looking at our decades of false starts, Al understood, even Buzz with his Texas pipeline.
Still would like to see the WOJO power point.
Seton Hall uses Africa and Eastern Europe, there are alternatives to Wisconsin.
I always need someone to explain my points and make my case, thanks.

[Silent Verbal]

Diener, Novak, Wes, and Vander were all great, important Wisconsin born players for MU over the last twenty years.  Obviously we're not going to get every good in-state kid who comes along, but you can't just burn every bridge like Wojo has, either.

[The Lens]

I can't believe how recruiting a player and then recruiting his brother (TWICE) led to extra influence being exerted from one family.  Just don't understand it.

[vogue65]

Diener, Novak, Wes, and Vander were all great, important Wisconsin born players for MU over the last twenty years.  Obviously we're not going to get every good in-state kid who comes along, but you can't just burn every bridge like Wojo has, either.

I must admit that I don't have all the facts, it might be worse than the obvious.
If I were him I would do more than burn, but that's just me.
I see two common denominators, one and done and Wisconsin.   
Now let's get back to building a program,.
Yes, Diener, Novak, Wes, and Vander all great, now I get to name 4 who hurt us.
Just because someone has a right to do something like transfer does not mean someone has to take the action.
I'm not into being used.
If being used is the new definition of college basketball, something is terribly wrong.

[dgies9156]

I don't know what posts the OP is referring to (I tend to skim past Vogue's posts), but I have heard from people in athletics all over the country that there is a value to getting out of state players. What I've been told is that local players tend to have more people around them who have a disproportionate amount of influence on them, family, extended family, friends from high school, former coaches, etc. This is great from a support system perspective but it only takes one Tim Maymon in the bunch to make things go sideways. What I've heard is that a lot of coaches value out of state players because they don't have as many other influences whispering in their ear (and the ones there is literal distance between the player and the ones they do have), their coach is the main person that they are going to for everything. Makes it easier to install the program culture into the player. Honestly, its a tad bit controlling and manipulative way to to look at things but I think all coaches have a little control freak in them.

This is NOT unique to Wisconsin in any way. Personally, from working at universities across the country, I have seen multiple examples of the local high school hero flaming out at their local university because the friends or family that got them into trouble (trouble in the general sense, not necessarily the legal sense) in high school got them into trouble in college too.

This is a really solid point. The "hangers on" often do more harm than good and give an in-state recruit a nagging sense of his self-importance. You mention Tim Maymon, but I suspect you could say the same about Dave Hauser and John Ellenson.

Part of the reason for anyone going away to college is learning to live on your own. I admit, that's not for everybody and Marquette's commuter population is Defense Exhibit #1. But part of the college experience and why we pushed our children to go a ways away from home was to learn how to be independent. To make good decisions.

We've had some great Wisconsin kids join MU's program over the years. Jim Chones was probably the greatest of them all, closely followed by Wes. But when a player is trying to learn a system, integrate himself into a new coach and new environment, the last thing he needs is mixed messages from clowns hanging on from everywhere.

[Viper]

This is a really solid point. The "hangers on" often do more harm than good and give an in-state recruit a nagging sense of his self-importance. You mention Tim Maymon, but I suspect you could say the same about Dave Hauser and John Ellenson.

Part of the reason for anyone going away to college is learning to live on your own. I admit, that's not for everybody and Marquette's commuter population is Defense Exhibit #1. But part of the college experience and why we pushed our children to go a ways away from home was to learn how to be independent. To make good decisions.

We've had some great Wisconsin kids join MU's program over the years. Jim Chones was probably the greatest of them all, closely followed by Wes. But when a player is trying to learn a system, integrate himself into a new coach and new environment, the last thing he needs is mixed messages from clowns hanging on from everywhere.

not often mentioned, but Tony Smith was a great local talent (Wauwatosa) recruited by Majerus and stayed on with MU as Dukiet came in.  I'd put TSmith ahead of Wes. McIlvaine was highly recruited...I believe UCLA was in the mix, but signed on with MU under KOneill. Damon Key too.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't know what posts the OP is referring to (I tend to skim past Vogue's posts), but I have heard from people in athletics all over the country that there is a value to getting out of state players. What I've been told is that local players tend to have more people around them who have a disproportionate amount of influence on them, family, extended family, friends from high school, former coaches, etc. This is great from a support system perspective but it only takes one Tim Maymon in the bunch to make things go sideways. What I've heard is that a lot of coaches value out of state players because they don't have as many other influences whispering in their ear (and the ones there is literal distance between the player and the ones they do have), their coach is the main person that they are going to for everything. Makes it easier to install the program culture into the player. Honestly, its a tad bit controlling and manipulative way to to look at things but I think all coaches have a little control freak in them.

This is NOT unique to Wisconsin in any way. Personally, from working at universities across the country, I have seen multiple examples of the local high school hero flaming out at their local university because the friends or family that got them into trouble (trouble in the general sense, not necessarily the legal sense) in high school got them into trouble in college too.

TAMU

Excellent explanation.

[HutchwasClutch]

not often mentioned, but Tony Smith was a great local talent (Wauwatosa) recruited by Majerus and stayed on with MU as Dukiet came in.  I'd put TSmith ahead of Wes. McIlvaine was highly recruited...I believe UCLA was in the mix, but signed on with MU under KOneill. Damon Key too.

Agree with all three of those guys. All had excellent careers and major impact on the program. 

Diener and Novak were couple WI born and bred who did all right for themselves at MU and professionally too.

I think I'd put all 5 of those guys ahead of Wes considering their MU careers. Wes was great his senior year, pretty ho hum before. 

[GoldenWarrior11]

Is it Wisconsin as a whole? Or can it be recruiting family members/brothers that happen to be from Wisconsin?

[vogue65]

I was once an industrial salesman and I learned that sometines the salesman gets sold.
The question is, who is selling?
I think that WOJO is probably a first rate salesman, now to learn a new skill.

[Norm]

not often mentioned, but Tony Smith was a great local talent (Wauwatosa) recruited by Majerus and stayed on with MU as Dukiet came in.  I'd put TSmith ahead of Wes. McIlvaine was highly recruited...I believe UCLA was in the mix, but signed on with MU under KOneill. Damon Key too.

Don't forget Rob Logterman in that mix. O'Neill mixed the WI crew with Miller, Curry and Eford pretty nicely.

[The Big East]

I believe MU should have a recruiting dialogue with all High major prospects in the state. Doesn't mean we have to sign them , but we should consistently be in the mix.

We have a different style of play than the Badgers but every once in a while there is a player both programs want. For example this past year Johnny Davis . It is worth building the local relationships over time.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I believe MU should have a recruiting dialogue with all High major prospects in the state. Doesn't mean we have to sign them , but we should consistently be in the mix.

We have a different style of play than the Badgers but every once in a while there is a player both programs want. For example this past year Johnny Davis . It is worth building the local relationships over time.

Screw Wisconsin, hey.  Hit up Illinois.

[mileskishnish72]

I'm not a recruiting afficionado, but it seems like there are a lot of WI kids listed on the recruiting sites that as far as I know (i.e., on Scoop) we have never been mentioned with.

I don't think we were ever a factor with Baldwin, and Tyrese made his move after we got Stevie.
I guess we were at least considered with Graham. There are some kids highly rated that I've never really heard of - Joplin, Landers, Foster - I guess they were never on the radar.

I agree with the concept that recruiting should be national, and even international, but I also agree that MU should keep an eye on the home fires.

All that said, where are we with Brandin Podziemski?

[Newsdreams]

I'm not a recruiting afficionado, but it seems like there are a lot of WI kids listed on the recruiting sites that as far as I know (i.e., on Scoop) we have never been mentioned with.

I don't think we were ever a factor with Baldwin, and Tyrese made his move after we got Stevie.
I guess we were at least considered with Graham. There are some kids highly rated that I've never really heard of - Joplin, Landers, Foster - I guess they were never on the radar.

I agree with the concept that recruiting should be national, and even international, but I also agree that MU should keep an eye on the home fires.

All that said, where are we with Brandin Podziemski?

You must remember interest must be mutual. I'm sure many recruits are not interested or might not think our program is a fit.

[Viper]

I'm not a recruiting afficionado, but it seems like there are a lot of WI kids listed on the recruiting sites that as far as I know (i.e., on Scoop) we have never been mentioned with.

I don't think we were ever a factor with Baldwin, and Tyrese made his move after we got Stevie.
I guess we were at least considered with Graham. There are some kids highly rated that I've never really heard of - Joplin, Landers, Foster - I guess they were never on the radar.

I agree with the concept that recruiting should be national, and even international, but I also agree that MU should keep an eye on the home fires.

All that said, where are we with Brandin Podziemski?

Podziemski is really good at St Johns/Northwestern MA.  Picking up major offers...Kentucky, Kansas, Illinois...DePaul was in very early but Brandin is shooting up the charts. With Herro AAU. Might that give Kentucky an advantage? State of WI is producing outstanding talent these days. Hopefully MU on his radar...would make a great addition.

[MU82]

I believe MU should have a recruiting dialogue with all High major prospects in the state.

Do we know that MU does not have this? I'm not saying we do; I truthfully don't know.

But some are talking with certainty that we have all but ignored Wisconsin athletes. That seems highly unlikely to me ... but again, I don't know.