NBA Thread 2020-21

[Billy Hoyle]

DiVicenzio out for the rest of the playoffs.

[Billy Hoyle]

Yeah, the Hate All Things LeBron Team, captained by forgetful, is fun (albeit predictable).

LeBron wins 4 NBA titles? "He did it with superteams."

This is a legit criticism.

Heat titles - assembled a team with three top 5 picks who will all be HOF players

Cavs title - Irving (#1 pick), Love (perennial all-star before post-Lebron injuries, #5 pick)

Lakers title - added Davis (top 10 player in the NBA, #1 pick)

I'm no Bulls fan, I still refuse to wear anything Jordan Brand, but the only "superstar" the Bulls brought in as a FA during Jordan's era was Rodman, and he had played his way out of Detroit and San Antonio so it wasn't like they were outbidding anyone.

[MU82]

This is a legit criticism.

Heat titles - assembled a team with three top 5 picks who will all be HOF players

Cavs title - Irving (#1 pick), Love (perennial all-star before post-Lebron injuries, #5 pick)

Lakers title - added Davis (top 10 player in the NBA, #1 pick)

I'm no Bulls fan, I still refuse to wear anything Jordan Brand, but the only "superstar" the Bulls brought in as a FA during Jordan's era was Rodman, and he had played his way out of Detroit and San Antonio so it wasn't like they were outbidding anyone.

So the 60s Celtics, 80s Lakers, 80s Celtics, Shaq/Wade Heat, late-aughts Celtics, etc etc etc squads weren't "superteams"?

Or were those OK because they were mostly put together by GMs and not by players?

Do you have the same gag reflex at the mention of the Steph-KD Warriors?

The entire 1972-73 Knicks starting lineup is in the Hall of Fame. DeBusschere and Monroe were acquired in two of the biggest trades of that era to join a powerhouse that already included Frazier, Bradley and Reed. Superteam! Title shouldn't count!

What a silly criticism of LeBron or Steph or Garnett or Wade or any of today's modern players.

[Pakuni]

This is a legit criticism.

No, it's not. It's a very dumb criticism that displays ignorance of the NBA.
Nobody wins an NBA title without multiple superstars on the roster. The lone exception of the past 40 years might be the 2004 Pistons, but even they had an MVP finalist (Billups) and all-star game starter/best defensive player in the league at the time (Wallace).

[Billy Hoyle]

So the 60s Celtics, 80s Lakers, 80s Celtics, Shaq/Wade Heat, late-aughts Celtics, etc etc etc squads weren't "superteams"?

Or were those OK because they were mostly put together by GMs and not by players?

Do you have the same gag reflex at the mention of the Steph-KD Warriors?

The entire 1972-73 Knicks starting lineup is in the Hall of Fame. DeBusschere and Monroe were acquired in two of the biggest trades of that era to join a powerhouse that already included Frazier, Bradley and Reed. Superteam! Title shouldn't count!

What a silly criticism of LeBron or Steph or Garnett or Wade or any of today's modern players.

I look at how they were created. LeBron only went to those teams if he had superstars go with him.

I do think KD took the coward's way out. He choked in 2016 in OKC so he went to a team where he didn't have to be the alpha dog and would win a title. The same for the Nets if they win the title.

I didn't say the titles didn't count, you did. But, I discount LeBron's titles based upon how he chose teams where he could win a title.

[lawdog77]

I look at how they were created. LeBron only went to those teams if he had superstars go with him.

I do think KD took the coward's way out. He choked in 2016 in OKC so he went to a team where he didn't have to be the alpha dog and would win a title. The same for the Nets if they win the title.

I didn't say the titles didn't count, you did. But, I discount LeBron's titles based upon how he chose teams where he could win a title.

My $.02, I am glad LeBron took his talents to South Beach, as it helped Wade get a couple more titles. I dont think he went back to Cleveland because that was the best place for him to win. I think he went back because that was home. So, 3 legit titles, one Bubble championship.

[JWags85]

My $.02, I am glad LeBron took his talents to South Beach, as it helped Wade get a couple more titles. I don't think he went back to Cleveland because that was the best place for him to win. I think he went back because that was home. So, 3 legit titles, one Bubble championship.

No, that was the brilliant and lucrative marketing narrative.   He went back cause they had a ROY and 2 time All Star in his first 3 seasons as well as the 1st pick they could move for another star.  If the Cavs had Derrick Williams instead of Irving and no coveted #1 pick (which Wiggins very much was) he's not "coming home". 

I don't blame him for making sure it was a great situation but pretending it was altruistic longing for home isn't true.

[tower912]

I get it.   I detest everything about Jordan and the Bulls to this day.   Same thing with Tiger.   The difference is that I don't try to deny their greatness simply because I loathed them.

[Pakuni]

I look at how they were created. LeBron only went to those teams if he had superstars go with him.

So we're going to hold it against LeBron that Cavs management couldn't build a championship roster  around him, as did the Bulls around Jordan, Celtics around Bird, Lakers around Magic, etc.?
That seems, well, unfair.

And, just FWIW, Anthony Davis didn't "go with" LeBron to the Lakers, he was traded there the following year.
nd Love and Kyrie didn't "go with" LeBron to the Cavs. Kyrie already was there and the Cavs traded for Love six weeks after LeBron signed. But now we're also supposed to fault LeBron because the team tried to build a winning roster around him?

[4everwarriors]

DiVicenzio out for the rest of the playoffs.

Never thought I say this, but that's a big blow, hey?

[MUfan12]

Never thought I say this, but that's a big blow, hey?

Yep. Need all the defensive versatility on the perimeter next round, and this hurts big time.

[JWags85]

So we're going to hold it against LeBron that Cavs management couldn't build a championship roster  around him, as did the Bulls around Jordan, Celtics around Bird, Lakers around Magic, etc.?
That seems, well, unfair.

And, just FWIW, Anthony Davis didn't "go with" LeBron to the Lakers, he was traded there the following year.
nd Love and Kyrie didn't "go with" LeBron to the Cavs. Kyrie already was there and the Cavs traded for Love six weeks after LeBron signed. But now we're also supposed to fault LeBron because the team tried to build a winning roster around him?

Again this is not intended to crap on Lebron, though Ive done plenty of that in the past, but you are MASSIVELY underselling Lebron's profound need for, and subsequent, level of input/control on front office dealings.  "GM Lebron" has been an ongoing joke since he went back to Cleveland and who is brought in.  There is no way he was going to Cleveland without insisting and discussing with the front office that they were moving for stars.  Same with AD, the narrative even when he signed was it was a throwaway year before they moved for someone (likely AD given his blatant tampering proof agent situation) the year after, hence why Lebron didnt do much to integrate himself into that young team and sidelined himself as soon as an injury popped up.

By that token, the Big 3 was nothing to do with Lebron, it was just the Heat front office making moves.

[forgetful]

Yeah, the Hate All Things LeBron Team, captained by forgetful, is fun (albeit predictable).

LeBron scores 40? "He doesn't make his teammates better."

LeBron gets 20 assists? "He couldn't score."

LeBron hits winning 3 over Steph? "So effen lucky ... and Caldwell-Pope traveled!"

LeBron wins 2020 NBA title? "In bubble. Doesn't count."

LeBron wins 4 NBA titles? "He did it with superteams."

LeBron still a stud in his 18th NBA season? "18 years of flopping and fake-reading!"

Fun!

While it is true that I really dislike Lebron, and deserve some ribbing for it. I would like to point out that I really do not enter many of the Lebron discussions anymore (although I'm willing to make an effort to craft up some new, and even more outlandish claims and attacks on him for entertainment purposes if desired).

My opinion on them not having the playoffs last year are not related to Lebron, and I didn't say or mean that it shouldn't be counted. Rather was just pointing out that I don't think the Bucks were mentally dialed in to the games last year.

A side point. The only team I dislike as much as I dislike Lebron is the Lakers. So there is a double whammy in those regards now.

[reinko]

Yup on this series.  Bud has actually coached circles around Spoe.  PJ Tucker has brought a lot more to the Bucks than I thought he would.  Having him and Giannis chasing around Nunn, Robinson, and Herro for much of their time on the court has completely taken those three out of the series (outside of game 1 for Duncan, when Middleton was on him a lot).  Those three were so comfortable last year.  That's a huge difference maker this year.  Then having Jrue absolutely hounding Dragic the entire court has really frustrated Dragic.  He was very comfortable last year as well.  And having Giannis guard Jimmy much of the series when he didn't guard Jimmy at all last year has made Jimmy basically disappear.

The versatility defensively is huge this year.  And Bud has done a great job in scheming things I never saw coming, particularly the two forwards (PJ/Giannis) chasing around their guards a good amount of time.

I imagine it wont be just one, but thoughts on who Jrue should line up against Brooklyn?  He has dominated Kyrie in the regular season, but maybe put him on Harden, make Kyrie play hero ball??? Then do your best w/ Giannis, PJ Tucker, and Middleton on Durant.

With DD out now, who was serviceable to good as defensive player, throws a bit of a wrench in it.  Hope for MKE to sweep and somehow Boston to win a game to get rest, because the JH, Giannis, and KM are gonna play A LOT of minutes.

[MU82]

I look at how they were created. LeBron only went to those teams if he had superstars go with him.

I do think KD took the coward's way out. He choked in 2016 in OKC so he went to a team where he didn't have to be the alpha dog and would win a title. The same for the Nets if they win the title.

I didn't say the titles didn't count, you did. But, I discount LeBron's titles based upon how he chose teams where he could win a title.

Well, that's just silly IMHO.

Over the years, Auerbach surrounded Russell with a dozen Hall of Famers, maybe more, but those titles were more legit? Okey dokey. If Russell really were any good he'd have won 10 titles with the Cincinnati Royals, right?

[MU82]

just pointing out that I don't think the Bucks were mentally dialed in to the games last year.

If true, shame on the Bucks.

[Billy Hoyle]

Well, that's just silly IMHO.

Over the years, Auerbach surrounded Russell with a dozen Hall of Famers, maybe more, but those titles were more legit? Okey dokey. If Russell really were any good he'd have won 10 titles with the Cincinnati Royals, right?

I look at a team like the Spurs - their big four were all draft picks: Duncan, Manu, Parker, Kawai. Duncan didn't have to join a super team to win a title. The Bad Boys teams were led by draft picks (Isaiah, Dumars, Rodman, Salley) and role players acquired via trade (Laimbeer, Aguirre, Mahorn, Edwards, Johnson, ). Isaiah didn't bolt to go play with superstars after he couldn't get past the Celts then the Lakers like KD did with the Thunder. Now, if LeBron had been able to win with his first Cleveland team...

Even the Lakers teams of the 80's and Bulls teams of the 90's were built mainly from their own draft picks and trades for role players and didn't have established all-stars join them via free agency to get them over the hump.

LeBron needed to be on super teams created upon his arrival to win titles.

[tower912]

2004 Pistons traded for or signed Big Ben, Chauncey, and Rasheed. They had the ultimate vagabond coach in Larry Brown.   I see no difference with LeBron.

[MuggsyB]

Could someone explain to me why Kawhi Leonard or Paul George isn't checking Doncic?  Whatever happened to getting around a screen? 

[MuggsyB]

Would you take Doncic or Jokic?  I assume most would automatically say Luka but I'm nor so sure.

[reinko]

Would you take Doncic or Jokic?  I assume most would automatically say Luka but I'm nor so sure.

Jokic is an absolute baller, and will be for the next 6-8 years, but Luka is 4 years younger, and won't hit his peak until 3-4 years from now.  Luka all the way

[MU82]

I look at a team like the Spurs - their big four were all draft picks: Duncan, Manu, Parker, Kawai. Duncan didn't have to join a super team to win a title. The Bad Boys teams were led by draft picks (Isaiah, Dumars, Rodman, Salley) and role players acquired via trade (Laimbeer, Aguirre, Mahorn, Edwards, Johnson, ). Isaiah didn't bolt to go play with superstars after he couldn't get past the Celts then the Lakers like KD did with the Thunder. Now, if LeBron had been able to win with his first Cleveland team...

Even the Lakers teams of the 80's and Bulls teams of the 90's were built mainly from their own draft picks and trades for role players and didn't have established all-stars join them via free agency to get them over the hump.

LeBron needed to be on super teams created upon his arrival to win titles.

So what you're saying is that because Cleveland management was more inept than the management of all those teams you named, LeBron should have been content to never win titles rather than proactively work within the rules to help build teams that had legitimate shots at titles.

Cool. Duncan somehow won titles more "legitimately" because he had Popovich build a team around him. That doesn't sound ridiculous at all.

It was fine that Ainge built a super team in Boston but not that Riley did in Miami. Fantastic take, Billy.

[The Sultan]

I look at a team like the Spurs - their big four were all draft picks: Duncan, Manu, Parker, Kawai. Duncan didn't have to join a super team to win a title. The Bad Boys teams were led by draft picks (Isaiah, Dumars, Rodman, Salley) and role players acquired via trade (Laimbeer, Aguirre, Mahorn, Edwards, Johnson, ). Isaiah didn't bolt to go play with superstars after he couldn't get past the Celts then the Lakers like KD did with the Thunder. Now, if LeBron had been able to win with his first Cleveland team...

Even the Lakers teams of the 80's and Bulls teams of the 90's were built mainly from their own draft picks and trades for role players and didn't have established all-stars join them via free agency to get them over the hump.

LeBron needed to be on super teams created upon his arrival to win titles.

Who cares?  Titles are titles.

[PGsHeroes32]

Would you take Doncic or Jokic?  I assume most would automatically say Luka but I'm nor so sure.

Uhh Luka, hands down. No debate.

Not a knock on Jokic though.

[wadesworld]

I thought it was funny that LBJ chose to take less than the max and convince Bosh to join him in Miami with Wade by convincing both of those guys to take less than max money so they could all fit on one team, but then he complained about having never signed a max contract and talks about how underpaid he was while he was with the Heat.