WOJO HAS TO GOJO

[shoothoops]

I trimmed a lot for relevance, but I used 2013 and 2014 to reference a very specific time. That specific time was November 2013, when the new Big East started.

As you mention, Villanova had pedestrian results the three years leading into that and there was debate from fans if Jay Wright was the right guy or if he should go (similar to the discussion we've been having for 3 years). So in November 2013, their program was, from the outside, not seen on the stable footing that was later revealed by the results since then.

Also in November 2013, we not only had the perceived top team in the Big East, we had the #1 freshman class in the league in 2013 and already had commitments from Sandy Cohen, Ahmed Hill, Marial Shayok, and Satchel Pierce for 2014.

We didn't know Buzz would lay an egg, that it would be his last year, that we would lose most of the 2013 and 2014 classes before their eligibility was exhausted, nor that Wojo would be the person tasked with taking the program largely into the new league. We didn't know what Villanova would do, and it is largely irrelevant to the world as it was in November 2013.

At the end of the day, we obviously didn't get where we all wish we could've gone, but the idea that Villanova's ascendancy to near-blue blood status was attainable for them and (as a couple on here insinuate) was never realistic for us flies in the face of where the respective programs stood when this new league kicked off. There's no reason the things that happened at Villanova couldn't have happened here. They also could've happened at Georgetown had things broken differently. Any of those three programs had the historic pedigree, the recruiting in place, and the coaching longevity to imagine that had things went right, they could be sitting where Villanova is today. I would argue that in order of most likely, it would've been 1-Marquette, 2-Georgetown, 3-Villanova.

Why are you not including what Jay Wright did prior to those 3 years  (which were 2 NCAA's) ? They were an additional Final Four, two Sweet 16's, and an Elite 8. He's had multiple different stretches of high level success.

Wright's results prior to the stretch you picked were better than Buzz' total results at MU. Those seasons count too.

Buzz finished 9th in the league in 2011.

Buzz flopped his final season without Vander Blue. And, he left. I don't doubt he could have turned that back around quickly and repeated his prior MU success, or even improved upon it. It's certainly possible.

I don't see how MU would have replaced Villanova etc...If you want to say there is no reason why MU couldn't have built upon initial Buzz success to win at higher levels, I agree that was certainly possible. Or if you want to say MU over several more years, could have accomplished what Villanova has accomplished, sure, also possible. I wouldn't say definitely, etc...but I would certainly say Buzz could have improved MU league success and mixed in Sweet 16's and occasional deeper NCAA run.

If Wojo was named John Dough, and didn't come from Duke etc...I don't believe he'd still be MU's coach. He's getting a few extra seasons because of the combination of that and the Pandemic. It'd be a pretty good idea for Wojo to win an NCAA game this Spring of 2021. And if someone said, keep him another year because of the Pandemic, he would need even better results than that to stay.

So, Wojo still has a chance, but he's obviously almost run out of time. And here we are in year 7 and the play at times brings out apathy, indifference, and disinterest.

and so it goes...and so it goes.

[Its DJOver]

• Big East Wins: 7th: Villanova (87), Providence (70), Xavier (64), Seton Hall (60), Butler (60), and Creighton (55) are all ahead of us (51).
  
• Big East Tournament Wins: 5th (tied): Villanova (14), Xavier (7), Seton Hall (6), and Providence (5) are all ahead of us. We are tied with St. John's (4).
  
• NCAA Appearances: 6th (tied): Villanova (5), Butler (4), Providence (4), Seton Hall (4), and Xavier (4) all have at least twice our appearances (2). We are tied with St. John's and Creighton.
  
• NCAA Wins: 7th (tied) Villanova (15), Xavier (7), and Butler (5) lead the way, but Georgetown, Providence, and Seton Hall have also each notched a tourney win.

You can certainly have whatever opinion you want, but I think a little more context here is important.  Since Wojo was hired at MU, 4 of the schools listed here have changed coaches (StJ twice).  None of those coaches have a conference record above .500, and the only tourney win was when Jordan won a game his first year with all of Holtmann's players.  Comparing Wojo's record against Mack's X teams is irrelevant going forward.  Comparing it to Steele's X teams holds more merit, and so far (small sample size and too early to fully judge Steele), it's advantage Wojo.  I've also noted other "indiscretions" that other programs have had since Wojo took over in another thread.  It's certainly fair to want and expect more from Wojo, but I think objectively he would fall right in that log jam middle tier with 9 other coaches, below Wright and above Leitao.  Whether or not that's acceptable for the fanbase and the brass in another discussion, but some of the statistics you posted are misleading.

[brewcity77]

Why are you not including what Jay Wright did prior to those 3 years  (which were 2 NCAA's) ? They were an additional Final Four, two Sweet 16's, and an Elite 8. He's had multiple different stretches of high level success.

Because the three years prior matched the three years I focused on for Buzz. Because that's a like for like comparison. And it's the period of time when Villanova fans were having the same "fire Jay" conversations we've been having about Wojo for the past 2-3 years.

I also mentioned this could've happened to Georgetown, but didn't dig back to JT3's Final Four either. As TAMU said, college basketball is a "what did you do for me lately" business, and when this league started, we were clearly atop that metric.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Thank you for the detailed response.  I'm not being facetious here, but let's say Wojo makes the tournament ten straight years and loses in the first round every time.  Is his job safe as long as he gets there, regardless of his abysmal post season record?

I'd I have to go back and check but I'm pretty sure that's never happened. I think there is a theoretical point where most high-major programs would fire a coach after X straight tournament appearance with 0 wins, but I have no idea what that point is.

Not a perfect comparison but Mick Cronin went 7 years straight of making the tournament with no trips past the first weekend with 4 of those being first round exits despite usually having a "protected" seed. That got him a job at a blue blood.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

But I'm curious...who is that one coach? I feel like there are more than one in the past 20 years to get fired after a NCAA bid. Maybe some have off-court issues, but is it just Rick Barnes?

Barnes is the only one I know. A year or two ago I went back and found coaching carousel articles for every offseason going back to 2000-2001. The only non-blue blood firing I found after an NCAA appearance (without off the court issues) was Mr. Barnes.

[shoothoops]

Because the three years prior matched the three years I focused on for Buzz. Because that's a like for like comparison. And it's the period of time when Villanova fans were having the same "fire Jay" conversations we've been having about Wojo for the past 2-3 years.

I also mentioned this could've happened to Georgetown, but didn't dig back to JT3's Final Four either. As TAMU said, college basketball is a "what did you do for me lately" business, and when this league started, we were clearly atop that metric.

I don't agree here.

Final Four, Elite 8, multiple Sweet 16's.  "Fire Jay" after 2 out of 3 NCAA's? Nah. Not sure who you were speaking with at the time. And I've spent a little time around Villanova basketball.

Again, 1 of those 3 years you chose, Buzz finished 9th in the league.

[Galway Eagle]

I don't agree here.

Final Four, Elite 8, multiple Sweet 16's.  "Fire Jay" after 2 out of 3 NCAA's? Nah. Not sure who you were speaking with at the time. And I've spent a little time around Villanova basketball.

Again, 1 of those 3 years you chose, Buzz finished 9th in the league.

I used to be on the ESPN boards back then. The Nova posters hated Jay at that time and wanted him gone.  they had crappy seeds if they made it, on top of him losing control of the locker room in the 2010 tournament for a huge embarrassing loss after a final four, they had a poor looking trajectory.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Barnes is the only one I know. A year or two ago I went back and found coaching carousel articles for every offseason going back to 2000-2001. The only non-blue blood firing I found after an NCAA appearance (without off the court issues) was Mr. Barnes.

Steve Lavin (not sure about off court) comes to mind. Edited to add Chris Mullin too.

[Galway Eagle]

Steve Lavin (not sure about off court) comes to mind. Edited to add Chris Mullin too.

Lavin and Mullin both resigned iirc

[shoothoops]

I used to be on the ESPN boards back then. The Nova posters hated Jay at that time and wanted him gone.  they had crappy seeds if they made it, on top of him losing control of the locker room in the 2010 tournament for a huge embarrassing loss after a final four, they had a poor looking trajectory.

Respectfully, this message board/the two Marquette message boards, are a teeny, tiny representation of MU basketball fandom compared to real life, let alone a few posters on an ESPN message board. The vast majority of people aren’t on message boards.

2010 Villanova 2 seed NCAA’s
2009 Villanova 3 seed NCAA’s
2006 Villanova 1 seed NCAA’s
2005 Villanova 5 seed NCAA’s

The others were 9 seed.

Final Four, Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16’s.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Lavin and Mullin both “resigned” iirc

FIFY

[Galway Eagle]

Respectfully, this message board/the two Marquette message boards, are a teeny, tiny representation of MU basketball fandom compared to real life, let alone a few posters on an ESPN message board. The vast majority of people aren’t on message boards.

2010 Villanova 2 seed NCAA’s
2009 Villanova 3 seed NCAA’s
2006 Villanova 1 seed NCAA’s
2005 Villanova 5 seed NCAA’s

The others were 9 seed.

Final Four, Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16’s.

Well with that attitude I can write off anything till you've asked a majority of people lol. The fact is ive offered an example where it was vocal, posters on Holylandofhoops can back that testament up as I've asked about it publicly there. And I'm sure if you head to VUHoops.com you'll find old threads. Also the ESPN boards were bigger than you're crediting it for, there were thousands and thousands of posters and they needed to pay Facebook to moderate it.

[Galway Eagle]

FIFY

Mullin I get the quotes but not Lavin. They had no reason to protect his feelings or reputation.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Mullin I get the quotes but not Lavin. They had no reason to protect his feelings or reputation.

“mutually agree to part ways”

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/steve-lavin-st-john-mutally-agreed-part-article-1.2164697

[MU82]

First of all, the genesis of this post is the comparison game. I don't think there's any debate that we were better positioned than Villanova to become a noveau blue blood. We were coming off S16/S16/E8. We had the #1 recruiting class in the conference in 2013 and were headed in a similar direction for 2014 with Ahmed Hill, Marial Shayok, and Sandy Cohen. We were picked first in the Big East and the highest ranked program in the league. We were investing more money in our program and had the best facilities in the league.

Compared to Villanova, we were in better position to become what Villanova has become than they were. On paper, we appeared to be in a better place. I don't think that's even a particularly close debate. Obviously we lost a coach and Jay Wright blossomed, but when this league started, we were in the catbird seat.

As far as when I would've fired him, see my post responding to TAMU. It isn't necessarily any one year but body of work. If there was one moment, I think it was after the Hausers left. We went from a top-10 ranking to a complete capitulation, then saw the roster for what should've been a top-5 team fall apart in a matter of days. The period from February 27, 2019 to April 16, 2019 when we lost 6/7 games, lost the Big East title, failed to reach the Big East title game, were upset in the NCAA Tournament first round, and lost two of our three most important players to transfer was a bottoming out to date.

Shortly after that would have been the moment. It is the moment when I first wrote Bill Scholl to express my concerns about the future of the program under Wojo. For the most part, all the trends we've seen since that moment has only reinforced what I began to believe at that time: Wojo is not the guy to lead our program.

Thanks for the response, brew.

First, I'm not going to get into it whether or not MU was ready to become a blue blood. You might be right. Or it might be a semantics thing. We'll never know.

As for the moment you selected as to when you would have fired Wojo ...

Did you say this publicly on Scoop at the time? Did you go on the record and say, "Wojo has to go. Now!"

If so, that was an awesome call ... but I don't remember it.

If not, it's pretty easy to use 20/20 hindsight now. I hope you don't interpret this as me calling you out or something. I'm just saying, as TAMU did, that it's a lot easier to sit here today and say, "He should have been fired at XYZ point."

Even though that situation sucked, and at the time I said it definitely made me worried about Wojo's ability to run a winning program long-term, the facts are the facts. All the bad stuff you cited ... those absolutely were damning facts against Wojo. But all the things TAMU and others have cited also are facts: Wojo was coming off his second NCAA tourney in 3 years, the team got into the top 10 that season, we finished second in the Big East, and we were a 5-seed. It would have been unprecedented (or pretty close to it) for any school, even a blue blood, to fire its coach under those circumstances.

But hey, if back then you said, "Fire the bum!" I'm more than just a little impressed now.

[Galway Eagle]

“mutually agree to part ways”

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/steve-lavin-st-john-mutally-agreed-part-article-1.2164697

Interesting

[MU82]

MU82

I know you are asking Brew when Wojo could/should have been fired and I wanted to jump in on the conversation. I do not recall when I jumped off the Wojo train exactly but it definitely has not been recently. Several years ago I noted I did not think that Wojo was a gifted enough game coach to win without having real talent on the court. Some coaches can win with any kids because they built a system that works and I felt that was lacking.

I remember TAMU noting that Wojo was running the Duke offense and I looked up the Duke offense on the internet. I remember thinking that offense must need to be run by 4 and 5 star players or Wojo did not learn the system very well during his nearly two decades in the program. I have said countless times on here but Wojo has looked like he was in over his head in this position. Sadly, I still feel the same way.

Hope all is well in NC.

Agree that Wojo has been a disappointment.

Things here are going as well as can be expected during this COVID-19 era that sucks for everybody. Hope you and yours are staying healthy and sane.

[shoothoops]

Well with that attitude I can write off anything till you've asked a majority of people lol. The fact is ive offered an example where it was vocal, posters on Holylandofhoops can back that testament up as I've asked about it publicly there. And I'm sure if you head to VUHoops.com you'll find old threads. Also the ESPN boards were bigger than you're crediting it for, there were thousands and thousands of posters and they needed to pay Facebook to moderate it.

Message boards are both inherently small sample size and, skew negative venting.

Jay Wright went a couple of seasons getting 9 seeds in the NCAA’s instead of the previous 2,3,1,5 seeds. .....while Buzz was bookending his four ending seasons at MU, by getting an 11 seed and missing the NCAA’s. And we all of course remember Buzz’ time as successful. (Buzz had a top 5 NCAA seed twice at Marquette.)

Then of course while overlapping the end of Buzz, Villanova went 2,1,2,1,1 NCAA seeds. (This is in addition to the previously mentioned 2,3,1,5 on the other prior end of Buzz.)

Wojo has had a 5 seed and a 10 seed NCAA in 6 seasons.

[Galway Eagle]

Message boards are both inherently small sample size and, skew negative venting.

Jay Wright went a couple of seasons getting 9 seeds in the NCAA’s instead of the previous 2,3,1,5 seeds. .....while Buzz was bookending his four ending seasons at MU, by getting an 11 seed and missing the NCAA’s. And we all of course remember Buzz’ time as successful. (Buzz had a top 5 NCAA seed twice at Marquette.)

Then of course while overlapping the end of Buzz, Villanova went 2,1,2,1,1 NCAA seeds. (This is in addition to the previously mentioned 2,3,1,5 on the other prior end of Buzz.)

Wojo has had a 5 seed and a 10 seed NCAA in 6 seasons.

I only popped in to back up brews claims about Nova fans advocating for firing Jay I don't know when you're repeating Wikipedia information on VUBB to me or comparing him to Buzz or Wojo. You know I didn't bring them up right?

[MU82]

So apparently, Nova fans thought Wright was in over his head, couldn't win big there, and had to go if the program was going to be anything more than mediocre.

I guess he proved VUScoop wrong.

[shoothoops]

I only popped in to back up brews claims about Nova fans advocating for firing Jay I don't know when you're repeating Wikipedia information on VUBB to me or comparing him to Buzz or Wojo. You know I didn't bring them up right?

You said Villanova had poor NCAA seeds if they made the tourney. And you said they had a poor trajectory.

They had seeds of 2,3,1,5.

They had a couple of 9 seed seasons.

Then they had seeds of 2,1,2,1,1.

I don’t see the crappy seeds/poor trajectory as anything other than a reach. Not surprisingly, neither did Villanova.

At the same time MU had a celebrated coach that had an 11 seed and missed NCAA’s that surrounded two top 5 seeded teams.   

[Shooter McGavin]

I think in addition to the expectations of our fanbase, which as Sultan noted aren't particularly unrealistic considering where we were at when Wojo was hired, is the comparison game. When this league was formed, we were perceived both internally and externally as one of, if not the, top programs in the league. But instead of challenging for titles, we've had one top-2 finish and haven't won more than one BET game in any given year nor beaten any team better than a 7-seed in the BET.

Meanwhile, Villanova has become the new blue blood we all wish we could've become (and were positioned to become when the league formed). Programs we have perennially viewed as lesser than us, like Seton Hall, Providence, Creighton, and Xavier have all found reasons to hang banners while we have nothing tangible to show for the past 7 years beyond scoring records.

Here's where we rank since Wojo took over in a few categories that fans would seem to get excited about, and remember we were supposed to be the team to beat in the New Big East:

• Big East Wins: 7th: Villanova (87), Providence (70), Xavier (64), Seton Hall (60), Butler (60), and Creighton (55) are all ahead of us (51).
  
• Big East Tournament Wins: 5th (tied): Villanova (14), Xavier (7), Seton Hall (6), and Providence (5) are all ahead of us. We are tied with St. John's (4).
  
• NCAA Appearances: 6th (tied): Villanova (5), Butler (4), Providence (4), Seton Hall (4), and Xavier (4) all have at least twice our appearances (2). We are tied with St. John's and Creighton.
  
• NCAA Wins: 7th (tied) Villanova (15), Xavier (7), and Butler (5) lead the way, but Georgetown, Providence, and Seton Hall have also each notched a tourney win.

What does this mean? I would say we are the (at best) 6th best program since Wojo took over. Villanova, Xavier, Providence, and Seton Hall are all clearly better than we are, exceeding our efforts in every one of the above categories. Butler beats us in 3/4 categories. I'd say we are on par with Creighton, though their Big East title last year probably gives them a slight edge.

I just don't understand how by any measure we have met expectations, or come close to that since Wojo's hire. How could anyone be satisfied with us perennially being a bottom half Big East team?

Agreed.  All confidence will be lost if this team does not perform in the BET and NCAA this year from my perspective.  I have no more long term (wait for recruits to come) goals. Those have passed. I have had patience.  Wojo needs to start exceeding expectations this season and that expectation for me is the NCAA and a tournament win.  If he doesn’t, he’s lost me and I’m a pretty big Projo.  I really believe he has enough talent on this team to win.  The conference is down.  Now or never.  I know they won’t fire him no matter what happens but my apathy will grow.

[MU82]

Agreed.  All confidence will be lost if this team does not perform in the BET and NCAA this year from my perspective.  I have no more long term (wait for recruits to come) goals. Those have passed. I have had patience.  Wojo needs to start exceeding expectations this season and that expectation for me is the NCAA and a tournament win.  If he doesn’t, he’s lost me and I’m a pretty big Projo.  I really believe he has enough talent on this team to win.  The conference is down.  Now or never.  I know they won’t fire him no matter what happens but my apathy will grow.

This is more or less where I am, and I have said similar numerous times since the end of last season.

The only difference is that I probably wouldn't become truly apathetic unless there really was absolutely no hope  -- in other words, we turn into something like Wisconsin before Dick Bennett got there.

[BCHoopster]

So you fire Wojo, that’s fine, but who are you bringing in to replace him? Secondly, you guys all blame Wojo, isn’t MU paying 4 other coaches as well? Does Rob Judson bring anything to the table? Or is Wojo such a control freak they bring nothing to the table? Al had Hank, does it not work that way any more?

[Shooter McGavin]

So you fire Wojo, that’s fine, but who are you bringing in to replace him? Secondly, you guys all blame Wojo, isn’t MU paying 4 other coaches as well? Does Rob Judson bring anything to the table? Or is Wojo such a control freak they bring nothing to the table? Al had Hank, does it not work that way any more?

It can work that way but it hasn’t so far.  Wojo has control of the assistant coaches he hires.  If he gets that wrong that is on him as well. 

Anyway I truly hope we can all start to forget these conversations with a great season with some type successful end to it.  Let’s start with being competitive today.  Hell let’s win.  WTF!  Change the narrative!