MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Tennessee Ernie Ford on December 01, 2020, 08:49:53 PM
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7 years! The horror! The horror!
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Jay bee?
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We need to set an over/under every year for how many games it takes for a fire Wojo thread to pop up. Under 4 seems a little low but not unprecedented.
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Bee Jay.
7 Seasons. What do you get? Another day older and deeper in debt. St. Peter please call me, cause all I know, is that Wojo has to go-jo!
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Sure do miss that Buzz guy.
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Wake me up before you Go-Jo
Don't leave me hanging on like a yo-yo
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Every day more join our cause.
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We need to set an over/under every year for how many games it takes for a fire Wojo thread to pop up. Under 4 seems a little low but not unprecedented.
4 games...where have you been...most are judging over a period of nearly 200...
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Free BeeJay 2020, hey?
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(http://)
Sure do miss that Buzz guy.
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Wisc. And Gard have figured out how to win consistently AND have a clean program, why can’t Bill Scholl figure it out?
It’s sad to think that just 2 years ago a young Marquette team (with both Hausers) beat WI at WI. The 2 programs trajectories were polar opposite and Marquette appeared to be in great shape. Fast forward to today and it’s obvious that there was a complete collapse at the highest level.
Wojo is one of the best assistant coaches and recruiters in the country. But he lacks the ability to truly lead the team. losing control of his locker room two years ago (Ultimately leading into the hausers departure), two late season collapses in a row, and still no NCAA tourney runs (not even an NCAA touney win).
If Wojo isn’t let go soon, Bill Scholl should be.
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Sure do miss that Buzz guy.
Speaking of, just checked Texas A&M's schedule, they've only played New Orleans so far. Did they bury the hatchet? or was playing them part of a settlement?
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Wisc. And Gard have figured out how to win consistently AND have a clean program, why can’t Bill Scholl figure it out?
It’s sad to think that just 2 years ago a young Marquette team (with both Hausers) beat WI at WI. The 2 programs trajectories were polar opposite and Marquette appeared to be in great shape. Fast forward to today and it’s obvious that there was a complete collapse at the highest level.
Wojo is one of the best assistant coaches and recruiters in the country. But he lacks the ability to truly lead the team. losing control of his locker room two years ago (Ultimately leading into the hausers departure), two late season collapses in a row, and still no NCAA tourney runs (not even an NCAA touney win).
If Wojo isn’t let go soon, Bill Scholl should be.
Exactly...
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He does. Have defended him for years. No creativity. No guile. No clue.
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Well, it's not happening after this season. The school has made tough cuts across the board; they aren't ponying up for a big buy out (on top of paying for a new head coach and a new staff) riding the wave of a pandemic. The earliest a change will be made is after next season (2022). That is, of course, unless Wojo chooses to take a new job but that is unrealistic since there isn't likely to be any major openings this cycle (and, if we struggle to get through the season, no one will have him at the top of the list anyways).
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More likely than Wojo being fired is Wojo being extended. We're at that point where his lack of contracted years will become an issue recruiting-wise.
MU is really in a tough spot here. He's not bad enough too fire (in pandemic times*) and he's not good enough to extend (in most times).
*I will permit that he may not be bad enough to fire at all, but everyone has to admit that the last 6 years do not live up to the previous 6 or the 6 before those.
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About the only people in the world COVID has been good for is Wojo and short-sellers.
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Agreed. Unless there's a big money person who is upset, it's just going to be the same old, same old. Depressing.
More likely than Wojo being fired is Wojo being extended. We're at that point where his lack of contracted years will become an issue recruiting-wise.
MU is really in a tough spot here. He's not bad enough too fire (in pandemic times*) and he's not good enough to extend (in most times).
*I will permit that he may not be bad enough to fire at all, but everyone has to admit that the last 6 years do not live up to the previous 6 or the 6 before those.
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He no adjust O
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The Lens
Sadly, Wojo is not on the high on the list of things to be done at MU. I also think he gets extended before he gets fired.
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I remember a time when people were happy there would be some MUBB this year.
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More likely than Wojo being fired is Wojo being extended. We're at that point where his lack of contracted years will become an issue recruiting-wise.
MU is really in a tough spot here. He's not bad enough too fire (in pandemic times*) and he's not good enough to extend (in most times).
More and more convinced that the best thing for both parties would have been him taking another job in the spring of '19. He floated his name out a bunch to get that extension, but after the Hauser debacle that was the time for a break.
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I remember a time when people were happy there would be some MUBB this year.
Hah, no kidding. That was short lived 'eh?
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I remember a time when people were happy there would be some MUBB this year.
We simply wanted the pain of 2020 to continue.
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Wojo’s inability to “game coach” was obvious yesterday. He failed to make adjustments. He let Oklahoma State control the tempo to dominate the game. It was disturbing to see Marquette players standing around, not knowing what to do. Their poor play and the inept coaching put a big damper on Friday night’s game.
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Wojo’s inability to “game coach” was obvious yesterday. He failed to make adjustments. He let Oklahoma State control the tempo to dominate the game. It was disturbing to see Marquette players standing around, not knowing what to do. Their poor play and the inept coaching put a big damper on Friday night’s game.
What is utterly shocking after 7 years, is that he seems to not understand what his team's weaknesses are. And if he DOES know what they are, nothing seems to be done to compensate for those weaknesses. Like, last year, clearly we had a defense problem. Okay, it looks like we solved that... but now we have a massive offense problem. We don't have a half court offensive game. How is that something that needs to be worked on at this point? I get that this has been a messed up year... but is our entire coaching mentality to:
1. Correct problems of last year
2. Work on strength and conditioning
3. Give strange non basketball specific speeches about "out playing them" and "work harder"
4. Be a good respectable face of the University
because that is all I see. Sounds like 6th place in the BEAST is what we should just expect at this point.
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What are the odds that Wojo did not know OSU was playing zone? That would be the most logical explanation for lack of adjustments. Do we even give him that much credit?
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I’m worried Wojo recruits talent and tries to cobble together a system. I can’t determine what the identity of a Wojo team is supposed to be.
What seems to be consistent is a team that is not good on defense/creating turnovers and has very little interest in pushing the tempo with a fast break.
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I’m worried Wojo recruits talent and tries to cobble together a system. I can’t determine what the identity of a Wojo team is supposed to be.
What seems to be consistent is a team that is not good on defense/creating turnovers and has very little interest in pushing the tempo with a fast break.
Questioning the identity is fair. But this team is actually very good at defense - so far.
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I’m worried Wojo recruits talent and tries to cobble together a system. I can’t determine what the identity of a Wojo team is supposed to be.
What seems to be consistent is a team that is not good on defense/creating turnovers and has very little interest in pushing the tempo with a fast break.
The identity of a Wojo team is and always has been "let's force feed our best player until he pukes - for better or worse". Carlino, Henry, Rowsey, Markus, now Dawson. Wojo teams have never had a semblance of balance on offense - making them easy to gameplan for defensively.
The reason this identity is not quite as clear and obvious (yet) with this season's team is that Dawson is a true freshman (not quite on the same level as Henry was coming in), meaning he is unable to fully takeover games the way the aforementioned could. But make no mistake - Wojo promised him and is grooming him for this role. For comparison's sake - Markus averaged 9 FGA his freshman season, then 19 FGA by the time he was a senior. Dawson is averaging 9 FGA through three games as a true freshman this year. As he becomes more comfortable at the college level, his FGA will only continue to climb as Wojo leans on him to do it all.
Disclaimer: I am a huge Markus, Henry, Dawson, Rowsey fan. I thought these guys are/were excellent stewards of our program and unique college basketball talents. They were just horribly misused to the detriment of the broader team. In my opinion - the strength of the team is the team ESPECIALLY at the college level.
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What are the odds that Wojo did not know OSU was playing zone? That would be the most logical explanation for lack of adjustments. Do we even give him that much credit?
This is the type of bullsh*t statement that causes mods to call you out and the rest of us to ignore you.
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I call Wojo’s system the “all of it, all the time” method. His star player does not just get some of it, some of the time, or most of it, most of the time. He gets all of it, all the time. This is very attractive to recruits and is no doubt the main reason Garcia chose MU—I believe he even said Wojo’s use of Henry was one of the biggest reasons he came here. Koby clearly wishes he got this treatment, but it’s not his to have. Only one inmate is allowed to run the asylum; last year it was Markus, this year it’s Garcia.
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There are certainly valid criticism of Wojo is this thread, but the whole thing about the best players taking the most shots is ridiculous. Of course Markus took more shots as a Senior than as a Freshman, of course Dawson is going to be a focal point of the offense, that's how you avoid situations like Jamal taking 14 shots. If you want to call into question the quality of shots taken, and the number of them that were just iso's rather than set designed plays, that's fair, but just looking at fga in a vacuum is silly.
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I think the issue isn't the sheer number of shots Markus got. I mean, you WANT someone who can shoot like him to take the most shots. The problem is that it seemed like the offense defers too much to that player instead of just getting them within the flow.
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I think the issue isn't the sheer number of shots Markus got. I mean, you WANT someone who can shoot like him to take the most shots. The problem is that it seemed like the offense defers too much to that player instead of just getting them within the flow.
I would agree with this, and it is why this is so puzzling.
Markus averaged 9 FGA his freshman season, then 19 FGA by the time he was a senior. Dawson is averaging 9 FGA through three games as a true freshman this year. As he becomes more comfortable at the college level, his FGA will only continue to climb as Wojo leans on him to do it all.
I would hope as Dawson becomes more comfortable at the collegiate level he can shoulder a larger load on the offensive end, and it's kind of hard to do that without taking more shots.
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I think the issue isn't the sheer number of shots Markus got. I mean, you WANT someone who can shoot like him to take the most shots. The problem is that it seemed like the offense defers too much to that player instead of just getting them within the flow.
Dis right here.
Sure he put up insane numbers, but not being asked to run an offense and make plays for others did Markus no favors with his pro aspirations.
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Dis right here.
Sure he put up insane numbers, but not being asked to run an offense and make plays for others did Markus no favors with his pro aspirations.
I don't agree with that. His lack of pro aspirations have to do with him not being quick enough for his size.
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The identity of a Wojo team is and always has been "let's force feed our best player until he pukes - for better or worse". Carlino, Henry, Rowsey, Markus, now Dawson. Wojo teams have never had a semblance of balance on offense - making them easy to gameplan for defensively.
The reason this identity is not quite as clear and obvious (yet) with this season's team is that Dawson is a true freshman (not quite on the same level as Henry was coming in), meaning he is unable to fully takeover games the way the aforementioned could. But make no mistake - Wojo promised him and is grooming him for this role. For comparison's sake - Markus averaged 9 FGA his freshman season, then 19 FGA by the time he was a senior. Dawson is averaging 9 FGA through three games as a true freshman this year. As he becomes more comfortable at the college level, his FGA will only continue to climb as Wojo leans on him to do it all.
Disclaimer: I am a huge Markus, Henry, Dawson, Rowsey fan. I thought these guys are/were excellent stewards of our program and unique college basketball talents. They were just horribly misused to the detriment of the broader team. In my opinion - the strength of the team is the team ESPECIALLY at the college level.
You're wrong that wojos teams have never had balance on offense. right about last two years of Markus and the Carlino and Henry years but the 17 team was extremely balanced and I'd argue The 18 team was fairly balanced between three players.
I wrote on Holyland of hoops that the only way I'd buy into this team is if Koby returns to Utah St Koby, DJ is everything or more than he was at OSU and Dawson is everything he's billed to be. I'd stand by that. It hasn't worked out that way yet but I stand by those three being our best shot at success.
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It really seemed that the when the shots stopped falling, everyone got trigger shy except Koby. And we all know one guy is not sufficient to lead a team to victory.
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There are certainly valid criticism of Wojo is this thread, but the whole thing about the best players taking the most shots is ridiculous. Of course Markus took more shots as a Senior than as a Freshman, of course Dawson is going to be a focal point of the offense, that's how you avoid situations like Jamal taking 14 shots. If you want to call into question the quality of shots taken, and the number of them that were just iso's rather than set designed plays, that's fair, but just looking at fga in a vacuum is silly.
Don't misrepresent my argument to easily knock down the resulting strawman. There's nothing wrong with one player having more shots than all others on the team.
Certainly not. In fact this is mathematically inevitable. You'd hope that your best player is finishing possessions for your team on a regular basis. It's the volume and percentage of whole that has been disturbing.
Markus attempted 561 FG last year. That was good for 4th most FGA in college basketball. No other player in the Top 10 of FGA in 2019-2020 played for a Power 6 school. This isn't just a case of one player being the focal point of the offense. I would love it if Wojo built an offense around Dawson. That's just the problem. He doesn't build an offense AROUND someone - he builds offenses that ARE someone.
The end result is a team that's pretty easy to gameplan for - especially when you know there aren't any wrinkles, adjustments, or counters coming (which is another issue).
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I'm not knocking the overall argument, I'm knocking the extremely flawed evidence used to support that argument. Total FGA without context is a pretty useless stat, especially when you consider the wildly differences in pace and even total number of games played. You seem more concerned with Dawson's 9 FGA per game than the quality of those attempts. Given his skillset, he can create a lot of mis-matches. Creating situations to get those mis-matches is on Wojo, field goal attempts and field goals made are on Dawson.
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I'm not knocking the overall argument, I'm knocking the extremely flawed evidence used to support that argument. Total FGA without context is a pretty useless stat, especially when you consider the wildly differences in pace and even total number of games played. You seem more concerned with Dawson's 9 FGA per game than the quality of those attempts. Given his skillset, he can create a lot of mis-matches. Creating situations to get those mis-matches is on Wojo, field goal attempts and field goals made are on Dawson.
What happens if Wojo is not creating mismatches or situations to get those mismatches? That would be a generous assumption (if you are making it). The vast majority of the offense I saw last year (and saw again in the OSU game) was dribble dribble dribble, handoff, dribble dribble dribble, handoff, dribble dribble dribble, contested shot with 2 seconds on the shot clock.
I don't often see creative off ball movement to create these mismatches (which definitely exist and definitely could be exploited). Do whatever it takes to force the opposing team to switch so that a forward is on Markus or a guard is on Dawson. Then let them go to work. If you can do that consistently - I have no issues with however many FGA you want to take. If you can't do that consistently (which I haven't seen), then you need to coach up a more balanced offense so that defenses can't key in on one player.
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See, now that you're moving away from focusing on total FGA you're making more sense. Yes, I think this is an area that Wojo needs to improve on, creating more consistent mismatches and from a wider variety of sets. The point still stands that if Dawson can get a 6-2 200lb guard switched on him in the post, he should be getting the ball every time and shooting as much as possible, no matter how many shots he has already taken. The same way that if Markus could get a 6-10 245lb center switched on him on the perimeter he should be exploiting that match-up as much as possible. This is why Theo would always set the high ball screen for Markus, not Jamal. Wojo should be focused on creating better shots for everyone, not the total number of shots that his best players have taken.
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See, now that you're moving away from focusing on total FGA you're making more sense.
I will also caveat everything I just said with the following:
There is a FGA threshold that, once passed, any coach at any level (even Billy's dad from Catholic grade school) will adjust his defense to double or sometimes triple team that player. Markus did pass that threshold and continued to shoot at the direction of Wojo.
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I don't think Wojo is forcing the offense to go through Dawson. Garcia is almost surely our most talented offensive player, yet he is averaging all of 9 shots a game.
I don't know what Wojo promised Garcia during recruiting, and neither does anybody else here, but so far I don't see very many similarities between how Dawson is being used and how freshman Henry and upperclassman Markus were being used.
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I will also caveat everything I just said with the following:
There is a FGA threshold that, once passed, any coach at any level (even Billy's dad from Catholic grade school) will adjust his defense to double or sometimes triple team that player. Markus did pass that threshold and continued to shoot at the direction of Wojo.
And has anyone approached that threshold in the 20-21 season? Because looking at the total FGA for this season Jamal could probably afford to shoot a little less (although with his Oboard numbers a lot of his FGA are within 3 ft. context), maybe a few less from Koby (although he's had a few "shot clock" situations as you've noted. context), I'd like to see Theo shoot a little more, little more out of DJ, little more out of Greg (although he doesn't have the minutes yet. context), and even though he's already third on the team in FGA I'd like to see a little more from Dawson. All dependent on situations and the quality of those shots of course. Looking at season totals right now, the most obvious issue is how desperately we need to reduce TOs, something that will hopefully come with a little more continuity from the new guys (context), honestly a little surprised that a new thread hasn't been started about it.
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You all know my opinion on Who.
But continuing to complain is pointless with the current heirarchy in place. Until the money stops flowing in, Wojo stays.
A horrible likely truth but a truth nonetheless.
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Wojo must have planned to practice against a zone during the 2 week Covid shutdown
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Last night was a new experience for me. It was a combination of things...the squandered lead, the toddler screaming before halftime that she couldn't go upstairs to brush her teeth unless daddy came along, my personal delayed start to the second half as I prepared dinner after putting the kid to bed, then the lacksadaisical effort I witnessed as I tried to catch up to real time (eventually got there in about the final minute).
Anyway...watching that second half, I just felt demoralized. Once Oklahoma State stretched the lead to 7, all I could think was "why am I bothering?" We had 20 minutes by that point and hadn't shown any ability or willingness to make adjustments. We couldn't establish anyone in the high post to create, we weren't moving the ball, it just felt like a loss. Even though the margin never got insurmountable, I just struggled to care.
I have spent a lot of my time living for Marquette basketball. Not the "dominates all aspects of my life" level we see from guru/iceman, but I spend my spare time writing articles about it, researching teams and tournament profiles, and obviously donating and attending games when that is something we can do. And despite the promise we showed in the first week, it was just tough for me to care last night. I'm sure a 3-game winning streak would get me right back in the fold, but at this point, it really feels like no matter the talent changes or improvements, no matter the promise we display, it's all going to end in heartbreak, so what's the point of investing myself in that, emotionally or financially?
I have tried to be patient with this coach and this staff. I love the players they have brought in, the representatives of the university, and want to get excited, but what's the point when the same chronic ineptitudes crop up year after year?
Being a fan is supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be rewarding. It's supposed to offer hope. Last night wasn't fun, rewarding, or hopeful. It was just the slow march of resignation. I want them to turn it around, but it's hard for me to invest in a Wojo team again.
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What are the odds that Wojo did not know OSU was playing zone? That would be the most logical explanation for lack of adjustments. Do we even give him that much credit?
LOL
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Only game 3. I vote we continue the season.
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Damn Brew, now I’m depressed and that takes a lot. My hope is that the defense will carry the day. In years past our stinker games would be absolute blowouts. This one was not that. Our offense was absolutely terrible last night and it was an 8 point game. If that was the low bar (one of hopefully only two to three games) for the season we will be pretty good. That is a Big IF however.
I think we need to give this a couple more weeks. If we get absolutely rolled by Wisconsin, UCLA, Creighton etc., I’m right there with you. My interest will only be casual and I will not plan evenings around Marquette games. That would represent a 35 year change for me.
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+ 100, Brew.
Just so sick of mediocre. The man cannot take advantage of the talented kids he recruits. There have been numerous games in the last few years that have followed the pattern you saw last night - we get a nice lead, they make adjustments, we don't, lead disappears, a loss ensues. The old saying that people keep letting money interfere with their decision-making is true in this case, so the man isn't going anywhere. A shame.
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Being a fan is supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be rewarding. It's supposed to offer hope.
Know how I can tell you're not from Cleveland?
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Only game 3. I vote we continue the season.
Game 3? No no no, sir this is game 199!
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+ 100, Brew.
Just so sick of mediocre. The man cannot take advantage of the talented kids he recruits. There have been numerous games in the last few years that have followed the pattern you saw last night - we get a nice lead, they make adjustments, we don't, lead disappears, a loss ensues. The old saying that people keep letting money interfere with their decision-making is true in this case, so the man isn't going anywhere. A shame.
Off the cuff, I think you could extend this to in-season as well. Wojo wins game 1 of the round-robin; opposing coach comes better prepared for the second game; Wojo loses the rematch.
Evidence of this pattern would be performing worse the latter half of the season (check). Someone could actually pull these numbers and see, however.
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Last night was a new experience for me. It was a combination of things...the squandered lead, the toddler screaming before halftime that she couldn't go upstairs to brush her teeth unless daddy came along, my personal delayed start to the second half as I prepared dinner after putting the kid to bed, then the lacksadaisical effort I witnessed as I tried to catch up to real time (eventually got there in about the final minute).
Anyway...watching that second half, I just felt demoralized. Once Oklahoma State stretched the lead to 7, all I could think was "why am I bothering?" We had 20 minutes by that point and hadn't shown any ability or willingness to make adjustments. We couldn't establish anyone in the high post to create, we weren't moving the ball, it just felt like a loss. Even though the margin never got insurmountable, I just struggled to care.
I have spent a lot of my time living for Marquette basketball. Not the "dominates all aspects of my life" level we see from guru/iceman, but I spend my spare time writing articles about it, researching teams and tournament profiles, and obviously donating and attending games when that is something we can do. And despite the promise we showed in the first week, it was just tough for me to care last night. I'm sure a 3-game winning streak would get me right back in the fold, but at this point, it really feels like no matter the talent changes or improvements, no matter the promise we display, it's all going to end in heartbreak, so what's the point of investing myself in that, emotionally or financially?
I have tried to be patient with this coach and this staff. I love the players they have brought in, the representatives of the university, and want to get excited, but what's the point when the same chronic ineptitudes crop up year after year?
Being a fan is supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be rewarding. It's supposed to offer hope. Last night wasn't fun, rewarding, or hopeful. It was just the slow march of resignation. I want them to turn it around, but it's hard for me to invest in a Wojo team again.
Bingo. I also think the last nine months have shown me that life is too short to be invested into bad basketball.
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I was thinking about how nice it would have been to see some Markus hero ball rather than the standing around.
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Great coaching isn’t in the punch, it’s in the counterpunch. Wojo has shown time and time and time again he has no counterpunch. It’s the most consistent theme of his tenure.
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I was thinking about how nice it would have been to see some Markus hero ball rather than the standing around.
Markus throwing bombs over that zone would've been the perfect antidote last night. Yes, they had length, but his ability to sidestep or step back would've got him open enough looks. Definitely felt his departure last night.
Great coaching isn’t in the punch, it’s in the counterpunch. Wojo has shown time and time and time again he has no counterpunch. It’s the most consistent theme of his tenure.
I think Wojo has shown us time and again why he was a great assistant. He can recruit, he can get pieces, he can put together a decent gameplan, he can even make an adjustment or draw up an ATO play that works. But when it comes to game-long strategic changes, he comes up short. When it comes to adjusting repeatedly on the fly, he doesn't quite have that. He's got enough to be an asset on the bench, but I'm not convinced it's enough to be an asset in the boss's chair.
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BrewCity77 - this is well said and I had the exact same feelings last night as I watched the game. Leading up to last night, my hope for growth and improvement of in-game coaching over Wojo's tenure really had sprung eternal. I imagine we all have different breaking points when it comes to losing that hope. I think last night was mine.
We may end up having a successful season and Wojo really may someday have meaningful improvement in his in-game coaching and adjustments. However, I no longer believe nor have hope that it will happen.
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Bad coaching abuses the talent a player provides to a team.
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I was thinking about how nice it would have been to see some Markus hero ball rather than the standing around.
You saw four years of that, do you really need more? I would’ve loved to have seen more D-Wade, another year of Vander, a sophomore campaign from Henry. Markus exhausted his eligibility, he was here for the maximum amount of time allowed. There’s no need to be wistful about his absence. He’s gone, we never won anything while he was here, and he’ll never play another game for Marquette. You believe that happy crappy?
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Great coaching isn’t in the punch, it’s in the counterpunch. Wojo has shown time and time and time again he has no counterpunch. It’s the most consistent theme of his tenure.
Actually, great coaching relies on the punch aka "A System" to build your program around. Wojo has failed to install that consistently, along with an ability to react in game. The Wojo system is supposed to be a high powered guard offense that relies on motion at the top of the key. He's not been able to recruit the right mix of guys to run it properly.
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I think the title of this thread is really clever.
(That didn't need to be in actual teal, did it?)
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Actually, great coaching relies on the punch aka "A System" to build your program around. Wojo has failed to install that consistently, along with an ability to react in game. The Wojo system is supposed to be a high powered guard offense that relies on motion at the top of the key. He's not been able to recruit the right mix of guys to run it properly.
Duke system runs great with Duke talent. That has been the problem for most ex-Duke assistants.
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Bad coaching abuses the talent a player provides to a team.
Right - and the sad part is for these great recruits / kids is that they think they're picking Marquette because Wojo's showcasing will help their pro prospects. Unfortunately being Kobe Bryant in Wojo's system tends to hurt these kids' pro prospects. In almost every scenario, for a college player being drafted to the league, it will be the first time in their life they are not the best or second best player on the basketball court. Better coaches like Wright or Cal put their players in roles where they learn how to be a cog in a machine - no matter how talented they are.
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Actually, great coaching relies on the punch aka "A System" to build your program around. Wojo has failed to install that consistently, along with an ability to react in game. The Wojo system is supposed to be a high powered guard offense that relies on motion at the top of the key. He's not been able to recruit the right mix of guys to run it properly.
I just don't think this is accurate. Wojo's teams have generally not had a problem scoring. Generally he puts together a good gameplan and executes to that plan.
Wojo's problems have always come when the other teams makes an adjustments that he has to react to on the fly. Like the zone last night. This has been obvious since year one.
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Last night was a new experience for me. It was a combination of things...the squandered lead, the toddler screaming before halftime that she couldn't go upstairs to brush her teeth unless daddy came along, my personal delayed start to the second half as I prepared dinner after putting the kid to bed, then the lacksadaisical effort I witnessed as I tried to catch up to real time (eventually got there in about the final minute).
Anyway...watching that second half, I just felt demoralized. Once Oklahoma State stretched the lead to 7, all I could think was "why am I bothering?" We had 20 minutes by that point and hadn't shown any ability or willingness to make adjustments. We couldn't establish anyone in the high post to create, we weren't moving the ball, it just felt like a loss. Even though the margin never got insurmountable, I just struggled to care.
I have spent a lot of my time living for Marquette basketball. Not the "dominates all aspects of my life" level we see from guru/iceman, but I spend my spare time writing articles about it, researching teams and tournament profiles, and obviously donating and attending games when that is something we can do. And despite the promise we showed in the first week, it was just tough for me to care last night. I'm sure a 3-game winning streak would get me right back in the fold, but at this point, it really feels like no matter the talent changes or improvements, no matter the promise we display, it's all going to end in heartbreak, so what's the point of investing myself in that, emotionally or financially?
I have tried to be patient with this coach and this staff. I love the players they have brought in, the representatives of the university, and want to get excited, but what's the point when the same chronic ineptitudes crop up year after year?
Being a fan is supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be rewarding. It's supposed to offer hope. Last night wasn't fun, rewarding, or hopeful. It was just the slow march of resignation. I want them to turn it around, but it's hard for me to invest in a Wojo team again.
DISCLAIMER: Brew I don't mean to call your fandom out.
But this is a HUGE concern for me even our most dedicated fans feel this way. the product Wojo is producing is not consistently a top 25 product, or a Big East Contender product, or deep tourney run product. The casual fan is going to take their time and dollars and spend it elsewhere. I can't imagine being a student during the wojo era. Now you throw in COVID... this could get really bleak, quickly.
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Actually, great coaching relies on the punch aka "A System" to build your program around. Wojo has failed to install that consistently, along with an ability to react in game. The Wojo system is supposed to be a high powered guard offense that relies on motion at the top of the key. He's not been able to recruit the right mix of guys to run it properly.
Eh all coaches have a system. All systems can be successful if executed correctly. What separates mediocre coaches from good coaches is how they respond when the system isn’t effective. That’s where he’s failed
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I think the title of this thread is really clever.
(That didn't need to be in actual teal, did it?)
I keep thinking this:
(https://www.gojo.com/~/media/GOJO%20Site/Home-Page-and-Navigation/Home-Page/Product%20Images/Hand-Cleaner-Category-local.ashx?h=646&la=en-INT&w=523&hash=B1F945ABDA858D2E19EE3C4B89452BEC92651121)
But then in my search for that image, I realized Gojo invented and sells Purell. So indeed, Wojo needing Gojo is correct this year, more than every other year.
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I was thinking about how nice it would have been to see some Markus hero ball rather than the standing around.
Tower I appreciate almost everything you say, but the "Howard Experience" lasted a full 4 years and never produced a single meaningful milestone, except his own (all time leading scorer for MU).
He was a huger factor the the '18-'19 season collapse and the only factor that kept the Hauser's from returning. I would take a DJO, Vander Blue, or Wes Matthews over Howard any day of the week.
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What is utterly shocking after 7 years, is that he seems to not understand what his team's weaknesses are. And if he DOES know what they are, nothing seems to be done to compensate for those weaknesses. Like, last year, clearly we had a defense problem. Okay, it looks like we solved that... but now we have a massive offense problem. We don't have a half court offensive game. How is that something that needs to be worked on at this point? I get that this has been a messed up year... but is our entire coaching mentality to:
1. Correct problems of last year
2. Work on strength and conditioning
3. Give strange non basketball specific speeches about "out playing them" and "work harder"
4. Be a good respectable face of the University
because that is all I see. Sounds like 6th place in the BEAST is what we should just expect at this point.
Can we put this point to bed already?
Did anyone else watch "all or nothing tottenham"? If you did, you'd think Jose is an absolute moron who only spouts cliches and vaguely helpful coach-speak.
But he's not a moron. He just doesn't say any tactical things when the camera is rolling.
Wojo seems to be inept as a tactics coach. But it isn't based on what he says in front of the camera.
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Can we put this point to bed already?
Did anyone else watch "all or nothing tottenham"? If you did, you'd think Jose is an absolute moron who only spouts cliches and vaguely helpful coach-speak.
But he's not a moron. He just doesn't say any tactical things when the camera is rolling.
Wojo seems to be inept as a tactics coach. But it isn't based on what he says in front of the camera.
I'm positive this is giving Wojo too much credit.
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Can we put this point to bed already?
Did anyone else watch "all or nothing tottenham"? If you did, you'd think Jose is an absolute moron who only spouts cliches and vaguely helpful coach-speak.
But he's not a moron. He just doesn't say any tactical things when the camera is rolling.
Wojo seems to be inept as a tactics coach. But it isn't based on what he says in front of the camera.
My all time favorite of Wojo’s was at Indiana:
“We’re in the bonus! We are IN the bonus! We need to play downhill because we’re in the bonus!”
It was like something out of a David Mamet play.
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Maybe Wojo should grow out his hair. It’s working for Shaka.
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DISCLAIMER: Brew I don't mean to call your fandom out.
But this is a HUGE concern for me even our most dedicated fans feel this way. the product Wojo is producing is not consistently a top 25 product, or a Big East Contender product, or deep tourney run product. The casual fan is going to take their time and dollars and spend it elsewhere. I can't imagine being a student during the wojo era. Now you throw in COVID... this could get really bleak, quickly.
I'm a huge optimist. Pretty much in all things in life, I find the positive. My wife, who is far more...I'll be generous and say grounded...can often get annoyed at how I always find a positive to even the worst situations.
But I'm also a big math guy. And at this point, I just don't think the math adds up on Wojo. I don't think his staff has enough understanding of the modern game (there's more to it than pushing tempo and chucking threes), the analytic side of things, and worse, even if Marquette's administration came to the same conclusion, I don't think they can afford to fire him.
The toughest part for me is that Marquette basketball pretty much is my sports life. I don't watch NFL. I barely watch NBA. I only watch NHL or MLB when my teams are in the playoffs. My English football team is in the Championship, so I can't really watch them either. Marquette is it. And if they aren't worth watching, it's rather disappointing, but just means maybe I need to find better ways to spend my time and money. And that also disappoints me, because I love Marquette and Marquette basketball. But if it's going to make me frustrated at home (especially with COVID, where I can't even get out of the house to watch the game) then it's hard to justify why to stay invested.
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DISCLAIMER: Brew I don't mean to call your fandom out.
But this is a HUGE concern for me even our most dedicated fans feel this way. the product Wojo is producing is not consistently a top 25 product, or a Big East Contender product, or deep tourney run product. The casual fan is going to take their time and dollars and spend it elsewhere. I can't imagine being a student during the wojo era. Now you throw in COVID... this could get really bleak, quickly.
I was a student during the Deane era. 2 years of not being in the NCAA hunt, boring basketball, poor attendance, poor student support, poor game day atmosphere, not much optimism. This era is far better.
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The vast majority of these posts aren't arguing if Wojo should be fired...it's arguing over why he should be fired or just how bad he is. Says a lot.
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I'm a huge optimist. Pretty much in all things in life, I find the positive. My wife, who is far more...I'll be generous and say grounded...can often get annoyed at how I always find a positive to even the worst situations.
But I'm also a big math guy. And at this point, I just don't think the math adds up on Wojo. I don't think his staff has enough understanding of the modern game (there's more to it than pushing tempo and chucking threes), the analytic side of things, and worse, even if Marquette's administration came to the same conclusion, I don't think they can afford to fire him.
The toughest part for me is that Marquette basketball pretty much is my sports life. I don't watch NFL. I barely watch NBA. I only watch NHL or MLB when my teams are in the playoffs. My English football team is in the Championship, so I can't really watch them either. Marquette is it. And if they aren't worth watching, it's rather disappointing, but just means maybe I need to find better ways to spend my time and money. And that also disappoints me, because I love Marquette and Marquette basketball. But if it's going to make me frustrated at home (especially with COVID, where I can't even get out of the house to watch the game) then it's hard to justify why to stay invested.
im with you. On Scoop we can snipe at each other from time to time, but in the end we all want MU hoops to rock. Unfortunately under Wojo it just ain’t happening. It’s like he’s jinxed. He’s got shooters, no bigs. Has bigs, can’t hit the broad-side of a barn beyond 12’. I still think this team can do enough to sneak in to the ncaa’s, but is this what it’s become? I mean, a basketball-only school with a history and heritage reduced to a hope & prayer.
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reduced to a hope & prayer.
Maybe that's it. Maybe we haven't been praying for Wojo enough.
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My all time favorite of Wojo’s was at Indiana:
“We’re in the bonus! We are IN the bonus! We need to play downhill because we’re in the bonus!”
It was like something out of a David Mamet play.
at least in that game Wojo was aware of the score.
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Can we put this point to bed already?
Did anyone else watch "all or nothing tottenham"? If you did, you'd think Jose is an absolute moron who only spouts cliches and vaguely helpful coach-speak.
But he's not a moron. He just doesn't say any tactical things when the camera is rolling.
Wojo seems to be inept as a tactics coach. But it isn't based on what he says in front of the camera.
Hmmmm awful strange that other coaches 'in the huddle' experience aren't what we get from Wojo. I promise, whatever he is drawing up isn't working either. Look no further than the results on the court. Is he worried that someone is going to steal his drawn up play in the next 15 seconds? Once they've run the play, it is on film forever anyway. Like, what is your logic here? He isn't giving away anything. Instead, he looks like Matt Foley without the table crash and the laughter.
Let's put the idea to bed that he could possibly be giving anything away that any basketball coach won't figure out in the next two minutes.
Yikes.
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I just don't think this is accurate. Wojo's teams have generally not had a problem scoring. Generally he puts together a good gameplan and executes to that plan.
Wojo's problems have always come when the other teams makes an adjustments that he has to react to on the fly. Like the zone last night. This has been obvious since year one.
Wojo's teams haven't had a problem scoring?
You do realize he's had to rely on Howard and a couple of plug and plays? He hasn't recruited and developed players to flourish in his system, whatsoever. It's junk and has won zero NCAA tourney games, not to mention it's gotten smoked at home numerous amounts of times. Plus, a well coached system can overcome a basic zone defense.
You've got a lot of basketball to learn if you think Wojo's system is run well. I'm dying laughing over here.
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Wojo's teams haven't had a problem scoring?
You do realize he's had to rely on Howard and a couple of plug and plays? He hasn't recruited and developed players to flourish in his system, whatsoever. It's junk and has won zero NCAA tourney games, not to mention it's gotten smoked at home numerous amounts of times. Plus, a well coached system can overcome a basic zone defense.
You've got a lot of basketball to learn if you think Wojo's system is run well. I'm dying laughing over here.
Well you can laugh all you want but I’m right. Marquette under Wojo usually puts together a good offensive game plan and executes to that plan. The problems happen when the other coach makes adjustments that Wojo isn’t anticipating.
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I was a student during the Deane era. 2 years of not being in the NCAA hunt, boring basketball, poor attendance, poor student support, poor game day atmosphere, not much optimism. This era is far better.
I was a student during the Wojo era. Freshman to graduation with one tourney appearance. It was surreal to watch the student body realize that Sweet Sixteens and Elite Eights were only the luxuries of our older brothers and sisters that may have attended.
I can tell you from experience that poor attendance, poor student support, poor gameday atmosphere, and low optimism were absolutely prevalent throughout the four years I was there. Weekday non-Nova games you could practically show up at halftime and sit in the lower bowl with no problem.
Saturday games would have been packed if PeeWee Herman was the coach, but MUBB has $5 pitchers to thank for that. Not the basketball product.
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Majerus-Dukiet era. That is misery.
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Majerus-Dukiet era. That is misery.
“It’s been worse” is usually a powerful signal.
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Majerus-Dukiet era. That is misery.
Sure - that was misery. This was apathy. Much more dangerous if you ask the right person.
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Well you can laugh all you want but I’m right. Marquette under Wojo usually puts together a good offensive game plan and executes to that plan. The problems happen when the other coach makes adjustments that Wojo isn’t anticipating.
Wojo wasn't anticipating the 2nd most basic defense in all of basketball? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Not sure what's more anemic, your posts or MU's 2nd half offense last night.
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Majerus-Dukiet era. That is misery.
+1,000,000,000
That era was the definition of pain.
This era is the definition of frustrating.
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I was a student during the Deane era. 2 years of not being in the NCAA hunt, boring basketball, poor attendance, poor student support, poor game day atmosphere, not much optimism. This era is far better.
is it? Seven years of mediocrity. We're not expected to finish in the top half of the new Big East. We finished poorly last year and the year before and the year before that, we hung our hats on a solid NIT run (which was supposed to provide great playoff experience for our young guys). Fast forward and we've got a team of young guys who, according to Wojo's presser, are experiencing a learning curve. I don't doubt they are, but when the Wojo era is one big learning curve, there's arguably not much optimism about NCAA hunts.
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Sure - that was misery. This was apathy. Much more dangerous if you ask the right person.
+1
I wasn't around, so those that were, feel free to correct this. I imagine there was some hope at the start of the Majerus years because of the time he spent with Al and Hank. But with Dukiet, it seems like after that first year was worse than Majerus, there wasn't much hope. Acknowledgment, if not acceptance, that we weren't good.
The difference now is that we're supposed to be good. We were supposed to build on Buzz's success in the new league, and we had the golden boy recruiter who was supposed to do it. And every year, on paper, you can make a case for why we should be good. Then the season happens and we chronically disappoint. We only exceeded expectations (per kenpom) once in the Wojo tenure, and that was the 2017 team that started 47 and finished 32, which is great until you remember that we jumped from 47 to 33 after our first game, so from that first night against Vandy, we pretty much were what we were (though yes, the 'Nova win was still awesome).
At least with despair, you can walk away, you can ignore it, you can divorce yourself from it. With this constant building and tearing down of hope, it's just kind of soul-crushing.
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Only game 3. I vote we continue the season.
Nope. Woe is us.
MU hoops life isn't worth living any more. Don't call Doc Rivers; call Dr. Kevorkian.
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Nope. Woe is us.
MU hoops life isn't worth living any more. Don't call Doc Rivers; call Dr. Kevorkian.
Woe IS us. Look what our alma mater has allowed this program to become! Perennially average. Enjoy living out the rest of your days in "others receiving votes"...
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“It’s been worse” is usually a powerful signal.
So one day on some talk show Buddy Hackett is ripping on Shelley Berman. Finally the host interrupts and asks “Isn’t there anything nice you can say about Shelley?”. After a loooong pause, Buddy says “Yeah. His brother was worse!”
Bottom line, Frenns, is you’re dead right. “It’s been worse”, even when true, also means things suck right now.
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So start a letter writing campaign and get him fired.
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I think the whole risk/reward thing is wrong for CBB coaches. Wojo can make 2m /year and fail and somehow keep his job. Very few professions offer that possibility. I’d pay him 3k/ month basic salary and $10k for each non conf win ($100k for UW or ND), $50k for each conference win and $200k for each NCAA tournament win. That would drive performance or exit.
Still not a “no-jo” but no longer pro-jo...
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Not only has MUBB lived up to fans expectations but the University itself is fumbling through the Cov-19 business and from reports its a debacle. MUBB not having a great season will end up a very bad year for MU.
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Marquette is hurting. Losing to OK St is somewhere around #50 on Scholl's list of problems.
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Crean sucks
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I think we circle the wagons Friday and beat Wisconsin. Put that in your blue and gold pipes and smoke it!
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Marquette is hurting. Losing to OK St is somewhere around #50 on Scholl's list of problems.
In isolation, no, but men's basketball success is always the clear and present #1 issue. Lack of basketball success leads to a lack of donations, season ticket holder decline, less postseason dollars incoming and thus less money to support the other programs. Marquette as a university has a wealth of other problems, but as far as the athletic department goes, men's basketball is the driver for everything.
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Apathy has set in for many of us. Been a fan for over 50 years and even during down times I always had the energy and desire to care about the program. Going into the Badger game has always been a fun time of year and trying my best to get jacked for the game.
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Apathy has set in for many of us. Been a fan for over 50 years and even during down times I always had the energy and desire to care about the program. Going into the Badger game has always been a fun time of year and trying my best to get jacked for the game.
same. dont even really care that much except its a chance for a top 5 win. maybe with fans it would help. its comin down to nothin more than apathy
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So start a letter writing campaign and get him fired.
Sure, and after he’s fired we’ll spread the news via a phone tree. Everybody reply with your landline and I’ll draft one up.
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In isolation, no, but men's basketball success is always the clear and present #1 issue. Lack of basketball success leads to a lack of donations, season ticket holder decline, less postseason dollars incoming and thus less money to support the other programs. Marquette as a university has a wealth of other problems, but as far as the athletic department goes, men's basketball is the driver for everything.
+1. Respect Tower's continual optimism, but the mediocrity of MUBB should be at the top of our AD's list of problems to fix... otherwise, he shouldn't be our AD.
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Crean sucks
Wojo blows
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Letter writing worked for the Hausers. I still get as jacked as I did in the 90's when MU would be on TV 4-5 times a year. KO and the S-16 team. Trying to predict how few points a Deane team could score and still win. I don't plan my life around any sport besides MU hoops. I'm going to miss seeing the next two games live and that pisses me off.
Wojo hasn't lived up to expectations on the court. I would still be surprised if he is fired after this year. Too many other things going on.
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Wojo blows
Hate has no home here, aina?
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Hmmmm awful strange that other coaches 'in the huddle' experience aren't what we get from Wojo. I promise, whatever he is drawing up isn't working either. Look no further than the results on the court. Is he worried that someone is going to steal his drawn up play in the next 15 seconds? Once they've run the play, it is on film forever anyway. Like, what is your logic here? He isn't giving away anything. Instead, he looks like Matt Foley without the table crash and the laughter.
Let's put the idea to bed that he could possibly be giving anything away that any basketball coach won't figure out in the next two minutes.
Yikes.
If you read my whole post you'll see I acknowledge his tactical shortcomings.
That has nothing to do with what he says when the cameras are rolling.
I've seen hundreds of "in the huddle", halftime and pregame segments across lots of sports at all levels in my life. 90+% of them are not talking tactics/strategy.
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Letter writing worked for the Hausers. I still get as jacked as I did in the 90's when MU would be on TV 4-5 times a year. KO and the S-16 team. Trying to predict how few points a Deane team could score and still win. I don't plan my life around any sport besides MU hoops. I'm going to miss seeing the next two games live and that pisses me off.
Wojo hasn't lived up to expectations on the court. I would still be surprised if he is fired after this year. Too many other things going on.
Passed up on several golden opportunities to fire him. If only someone had been saying this since 2017...
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Wise words, Doc.
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Apathy has set in for many of us. Been a fan for over 50 years and even during down times I always had the energy and desire to care about the program. Going into the Badger game has always been a fun time of year and trying my best to get jacked for the game.
Hey, it happens, aina?
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+1. Respect Tower's continual optimism, but the mediocrity of MUBB should be at the top of our AD's list of problems to fix... otherwise, he shouldn't be our AD.
I see that Illinois is #5.
Thinking back over Wojo's tenure, which program was in worse shape at the start and which had improved the most during Wojo's time coaching MU?
Add in the number of 20+ point blowout losses, late season collapses, and utter lack of postseason success, it's well past time for a change.
Imo, way too many arguments from Projos about "next year's recruiting class" and "it's only Wojo's fifth/sixth/seventh (?)) year...
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I've seen hundreds of "in the huddle", halftime and pregame segments across lots of sports at all levels in my life. 90+% of them are not talking tactics/strategy.
Sure we don’t get to see coaches diagram specific strategy on the grease board for their ATOs. But the majority of huddle speeches I have seen contain something of substance such as “let’s continue to attack the paint - it’s giving our shooters open looks on the perimeter and our slashers have more room to operate off the wings” or “keep moving your feet on defense, make them think about every pass and they’ll make a mistake eventually” or “let’s focus on our technique when boxing out - find a man and put a body on him when that shot goes up - remember what we’ve done in practice”...
Any of those is technical enough to actually give the kids something to focus on in the ensuing period of play while vague enough so as not to give away the secret sauce.
Wojo’s huddles have been on another level of vapidity. The one I remember most prominently is “PLAY BASKETBALL”. I also remember the March Madness All Access leading up to the Murray State implosion and his entire speech to the guys was “PLAY ANGRY”... I wish I could dig up the video.
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I was thinking about how nice it would have been to see some Markus hero ball rather than the standing around.
W
I was thinking what it would be like if the coach could make adjustments. Standing around flat footed is not a game plan for adjusting to a zone.
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MU moved the ball great against the Pine Bluff zone. Stood still against OK St. The difference was the length of the defenders. Give credit to the D.
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Can we put this point to bed already?
Did anyone else watch "all or nothing tottenham"? If you did, you'd think Jose is an absolute moron who only spouts cliches and vaguely helpful coach-speak.
But he's not a moron. He just doesn't say any tactical things when the camera is rolling.
Wojo seems to be inept as a tactics coach. But it isn't based on what he says in front of the camera.
We both like suffering (eat at Arby's), but until wojo tells his guys to be "intelligent c*nts" or has an apapaiya apapapa moment, we're f*cked.
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MU moved the ball great against the Pine Bluff zone. Stood still against OK St. The difference was the length of the defenders. Give credit to the D.
I don’t think this means what you think. You are essentially saying MU is not capable of competing with top 30 talent. That isn’t even a great place to be historically.
Wojo ceiling = not good.
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MU moved the ball great against the Pine Bluff zone. Stood still against OK St. The difference was the length of the defenders. Give credit to the D.
I am convinced, give Wojo another 7 years.
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I don’t think this means what you think. You are essentially saying MU is not capable of competing with top 30 talent. That isn’t even a great place to be historically.
Wojo ceiling = not good.
You kid, but this has always been the rationale from pro jos after a loss like we experienced yesterday.
Opponents are too long...
Can’t play defense with small guards...
Opposing coach has a better game plan...
Flat out saying the opponent is more talented...
Interesting that pro jos backhandedly admit Wojo is incapable of getting more out of his team than the opposition.
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The ball movement against Pine Bluff was praised. And then Wojo said he was pleased because they had only worked on their zone offense a little prior to that game. Yes or no? MU got completely disrupted by the OK St zone. Why the difference? Length. Dawson not getting the ball at the foul line and not making plays when he did.
But, a few days earlier, the ball movement against the zone was fine.
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The ball movement against Pine Bluff was praised. And then Wojo said he was pleased because they had only worked on their zone offense a little prior to that game. Yes or no? MU got completely disrupted by the OK St zone. Why the difference? Length. Dawson not getting the ball at the foul line and not making plays when he did.
But, a few days earlier, the ball movement against the zone was fine.
Ok you gotta stop hammering on length. The best answer is sometimes the simplest. One team was Kenpom 351 Pine Bluff, the other team was Oklahoma State. There’s your difference. Not “length”. I’m sure Wisconsin, nowhere near as long as OSU, will challenge us with at least some zone on Friday after watching this film.
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It was Syracuse length. OK St is a better team than Pine Bluff. They played their zone better. They made the players in the floor stand still. Ar least that is what the OK St coach says.
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Buzz had 13 NCAA wins in 6 seasons. Here we are justifying a coach on the prospect of maybe winning 1 game in 8 seasons. Honest question: has any coach since 1980 ever won consistently after not doing so for seven consecutive seasons?
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Buzz had 13 NCAA wins in 6 seasons. Here we are justifying a coach on the prospect of maybe winning 1 game in 8 seasons. Honest question: has any coach since 1980 ever won consistently after not doing so for seven consecutive seasons?
You see, I'll be called a ProJo for this, but you can't actually blame Wojo (or Markus) for not winning any NCAA games last year. FWIW, 1 game in 7 seasons is still possible though...
Last nights game was disappointing. But I expect Marquette to get better as the year goes on. The question is whether they peak mid-season (as we've seen from Wojo) or keep going from there.
I'll keep watching the games to find out. Wojo won't be fired even if things are horrible still in the middle of the season. Why keep bitching, just try to enjoy what we've got.
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Rocky, I’ll continue to try and enjoy what we’ve got (I was optimistic thru Monday) and I understand that Steve will likely not be fired, but this mediocrity should not be tolerated by the administration and we as a fan base can choose to accept it or strive for something greater, by making noise about our unhappiness.
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Rocky, I’ll continue to try and enjoy what we’ve got (I was optimistic thru Monday) and I understand that Steve will likely not be fired, but this mediocrity should not be tolerated by the administration and we as a fan base can choose to accept it or strive for something greater, by making noise about our unhappiness.
Fair. But just so everyone knows, the MU administration generally doesn't follow MUScoop :)
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Fair. But just so everyone knows, the MU administration generally doesn't follow MUScoop :)
Don’t see yourself short
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Apathy has set in for many of us. Been a fan for over 50 years and even during down times I always had the energy and desire to care about the program. Going into the Badger game has always been a fun time of year and trying my best to get jacked for the game.
Goose
The Dukiet era was depression followed by apathy and embarrassment. An all time low.
The Wojo era has enough teases (recruiting successes, a big win here or a nice streak there) to save me from those dark places. That said, unless there is a major turn I’m resigned to the fact that the best we can hope for under Wojo is a middling up and down program. His experienced teams will be average to above average, his inexperienced ones average to below average. This is year 8, and we’ve never finished in Pomeroy’s top 30 under Wojo. That, plus the fact that he looks good in a blue blazer and never says anything controversial (or interesting, IMO) is enough for the ProJos. Some may even be still clinging to that “Duke North” nonsense. I’d love for them to be right but 7+ years of data says differently.
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Woe IS us. Look what our alma mater has allowed this program to become! Perennially average. Enjoy living out the rest of your days in "others receiving votes"...
I am going to enjoy living out the rest of my days (lots of them, I hope) surrounded by family and friends and fun.
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I am going to enjoy living out the rest of my days (lots of them, I hope) surrounded by family and friends and fun.
My goodness what a sap. It was a figure of speech akin to your own call to Kevorkian. Read your own posts.
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MU moved the ball great against the Pine Bluff zone. Stood still against OK St. The difference was the length of the defenders. Give credit to the D.
elite HS teams like Bishop Gorman, Sierra Canyon, or Montverde could move the ball against UAPB’s zone. I need something better than that.
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My goodness what a sap. It was a figure of speech akin to your own call to Kevorkian. Read your own posts.
We are doomed! Doomed, I say!
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Buzz had 13 NCAA wins in 6 seasons. Here we are justifying a coach on the prospect of maybe winning 1 game in 8 seasons. Honest question: has any coach since 1980 ever won consistently after not doing so for seven consecutive seasons?
Leonard Hamilton at Florida St. Grant has one good year at Dayton with an unknown tournament run last year. He hasn't won a tournament game in the 8 years at Alabama and Dayton with only 1 appearance prior to last season. Jay Wright had a tough six year stretch between Final Four appearances. Matt Painter also had a tough six years between Sweet 16 appearances.
Ben Howland forgot to coach after leading UCLA to three consecutive Final Fours. He only won 2 more tournament games in 3 appearances in the five years that followed at UCLA. And only one appearance with zero wins in five seasons at Mississippi St. Two tournament wins in 10 seasons after 3 consecutive Final Fours.
Altman only won 2 tournament games in 18 seasons at Creighton (16) and Oregon (2). He then had a Sweet 16, an Elite 8 and a Final Four in the next 5 seasons. McDermott only has 2 tournament wins in 9 years at Creighton and Cooley only 1 in the 8 years at Providence. It took 8 seasons for Willard to win a tournament game. His only win in 9 seasons (not including last year).
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Buzz had 13 NCAA wins in 6 seasons. Here we are justifying a coach on the prospect of maybe winning 1 game in 8 seasons.
Clearly not a fair comparison. Buzz took over with Matthews, McNeal, James, Hayward, and Butler on that team. Yes, he recruited some of them, but his being an assistant helped keep the program together. When Buzz left, the cupboard was bare. And given the current state of players leaving programs, it took years to build the culture that Wojo truly wants. There's no excuse for the lack of postseason success. We finally have some players reaching senior year that have been under Wojo for 4-5 years, battled, learned to embrace his culture, and are passing it along to younger guys. We also finally have the depth to have allowed us to use effective redshirts in recent years with Anim and Akanno.
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I love reading and talking college hoops, especially MU hoops, but I can’t believe you guys and gals have got the energy to bang on this Wojo drum over and over, it’s impressive.
As for the game, that was some very poor basketball. Let’s hope for a rebound on Friday because the early season schedule is brutal.
As for Wojo I’ll say one thing- if this years version doesn’t get better as the season goes on, both individually for many of the key pieces and collectively as a team, and they miss out on the dance, I can see an argument for moving on.
Logistically speaking, it seems like a pretty good time to do so imo- in that scenario you’d have a good frosh turning soph class (I include Carton here even though he will be a jr next season) that would hopefully stay and an average instead of great incoming class. Even with a few transfers/decommits seems like a good time to make a change that hopefully won’t be needed
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Logistically speaking, it seems like a pretty good time to do so imo- in that scenario you’d have a good frosh turning soph class (I include Carton here even though he will be a jr next season) that would hopefully stay and an average instead of great incoming class. Even with a few transfers/decommits seems like a good time to make a change that hopefully won’t be needed
Careful - the usual suspects will remind you that we are guaranteed to see 15 transfers out and lose the entire business school staff if Wojo were dismissed.
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Passed up on several golden opportunities to fire him. If only someone had been saying this since 2017...
What golden opportunities are you referring to? Wojo has unquestionably preformed well enough every year not to get fired.
Fans may not like it, but there is a space between "good enough to inspire confidence" and "bad enough to fire." Unfortunately for us sorry louts, Wojo has set up camp in that space and past evidence suggests that he ain't moving in either direction.
I don't fault anyone who has seen enough of Wojo and has concluded that he will never get us to the next level. I'm closer to he won't get it done then he will at the moment. But the reality is, other than the top 10 or so programs in the country, Wojo could have had the exact same results, and he would still be employed at any other program.
And again, while I understand why people are pessimistic about the team moving forward...It was an 8 point loss in the third game of the season to a good (not great) high-major team. We have seen Wojo coached teams take much worse early season losses and then turn around to make the dance anyway. Let's not throw the season on the meat wagon quite yet.
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Goose
The Dukiet era was depression followed by apathy and embarrassment. An all time low.
The Wojo era has enough teases (recruiting successes, a big win here or a nice streak there) to save me from those dark places. That said, unless there is a major turn I’m resigned to the fact that the best we can hope for under Wojo is a middling up and down program. His experienced teams will be average to above average, his inexperienced ones average to below average. This is year 8, and we’ve never finished in Pomeroy’s top 30 under Wojo. That, plus the fact that he looks good in a blue blazer and never says anything controversial (or interesting, IMO) is enough for the ProJos. Some may even be still clinging to that “Duke North” nonsense. I’d love for them to be right but 7+ years of data says differently.
Yep. It's not where you start, it's where you finish.
Like Jose, Wojo is getting a free year this year. But if he doesn't do something with it next year should be his last.
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How many people will continue to go through with the same "cupboard bare" scenario. ITS YEAR 7.
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I am going to enjoy living out the rest of my days (lots of them, I hope) surrounded by family and friends and fun.
Someone's singing, Lord, kumbaya. Or Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya. Or Someone's praying Lord, kumbaya, hey?
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Passed up on several golden opportunities to fire him. If only someone had been saying this since 2017...
Get off your high horse, I've been saying to let him go since our lose to Omaha southwestern central or whatever it was.
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Sew y'all wanna give Wojo da heave ho, hey?
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What golden opportunities are you referring to? Wojo has unquestionably preformed well enough every year not to get fired.
Fans may not like it, but there is a space between "good enough to inspire confidence" and "bad enough to fire." Unfortunately for us sorry louts, Wojo has set up camp in that space and past evidence suggests that he ain't moving in either direction.
I don't fault anyone who has seen enough of Wojo and has concluded that he will never get us to the next level. I'm closer to he won't get it done then he will at the moment. But the reality is, other than the top 10 or so programs in the country, Wojo could have had the exact same results, and he would still be employed at any other program.
And again, while I understand why people are pessimistic about the team moving forward...It was an 8 point loss in the third game of the season to a good (not great) high-major team. We have seen Wojo coached teams take much worse early season losses and then turn around to make the dance anyway. Let's not throw the season on the meat wagon quite yet.
It wasn't that the loss happened, it was how inept and unprepared the team looked that has a lot of people rankled.
I think the real problem is the lack of post season last year, and the low expectations setting in for this year. We all feel like we should be in the tournament every year... and when we get there, we win a game or two sometimes. Instead we miss the tourney or we get our doors blown off when we get there.
It's awful hard to be a basketball only school when you're bad at basketball.
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It wasn't that the loss happened, it was how inept and unprepared the team looked that has a lot of people rankled.
I think the real problem is the lack of post season last year, and the low expectations setting in for this year. We all feel like we should be in the tournament every year... and when we get there, we win a game or two sometimes. Instead we miss the tourney or we get our doors blown off when we get there.
It's awful hard to be a basketball only school when you're bad at basketball.
The sign of a good program and coach is quickly bouncing back after an underachieving season. Mediocrity is a problem when it begins to become a pattern.
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It wasn't that the loss happened, it was how inept and unprepared the team looked that has a lot of people rankled.
I think the real problem is the lack of post season last year, and the low expectations setting in for this year. We all feel like we should be in the tournament every year... and when we get there, we win a game or two sometimes. Instead we miss the tourney or we get our doors blown off when we get there.
It's awful hard to be a basketball only school when you're bad at basketball.
Reminds me a lot of my time at MU when Crean was there post Wade
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The sign of a good program and coach is quickly bouncing back after an underachieving season. Mediocrity is a problem when it begins to become a pattern.
Ohhhhhhhh its been a pattern. Even if some on here are wearing blinders.
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It wasn't that the loss happened, it was how inept and unprepared the team looked that has a lot of people rankled.
I think the real problem is the lack of post season last year, and the low expectations setting in for this year. We all feel like we should be in the tournament every year... and when we get there, we win a game or two sometimes. Instead we miss the tourney or we get our doors blown off when we get there.
It's awful hard to be a basketball only school when you're bad at basketball.
I actually don't think our fanbase expects a lot. I think Kevin O'Neill type success would make people happy. Most MU fans would be fine with down years if they had confidence in the coach to get them back. But under Wojo, "next year" never seems to come.
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Nearly all casual fans I knew when I was an undergrad dont even watch MUBB anymore. Only the hardcore fans do, and even then its the same bemoaning that we have all been seeing last several years.
Its great to have a clean program. Its refreshing to see the quality student athletes represent the university. Its even better to win and to win consistently and I hope that can happen.
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I actually don't think our fanbase expects a lot. I think Kevin O'Neill type success would make people happy. Most MU fans would be fine with down years if they had confidence in the coach to get them back. But under Wojo, "next year" never seems to come.
This, so much this.
We've seen this movie before, we know how it ends.
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I actually don't think our fanbase expects a lot. I think Kevin O'Neill type success would make people happy. Most MU fans would be fine with down years if they had confidence in the coach to get them back. But under Wojo, "next year" never seems to come.
Yup, that is what I'm sayin.
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Sew, a few yeers ago eye said, I've seen enough. Now y'all have ceen da lite two, hey?
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But the reality is, other than the top 10 or so programs in the country, Wojo could have had the exact same results, and he would still be employed at any other program.
This is just false. How many other P6 schools have a coach who’s been in his job as long as Wojo has without an NCAA win?
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What golden opportunities are you referring to? Wojo has unquestionably preformed well enough every year not to get fired.
Fans may not like it, but there is a space between "good enough to inspire confidence" and "bad enough to fire." Unfortunately for us sorry louts, Wojo has set up camp in that space and past evidence suggests that he ain't moving in either direction.
I don't fault anyone who has seen enough of Wojo and has concluded that he will never get us to the next level. I'm closer to he won't get it done then he will at the moment. But the reality is, other than the top 10 or so programs in the country, Wojo could have had the exact same results, and he would still be employed at any other program.
And again, while I understand why people are pessimistic about the team moving forward...It was an 8 point loss in the third game of the season to a good (not great) high-major team. We have seen Wojo coached teams take much worse early season losses and then turn around to make the dance anyway. Let's not throw the season on the meat wagon quite yet.
We can debate about the others, but there has been at least one shimmering golden opportunity - after the Murray State loss. Given everything I saw that season, and then the actual tournament game itself, I think it would've made sense to press release it before his plane landed back in Milwaukee. He went and shopped his name around immediately after this anyway, and we caved and granted an extension instead. What a comedy of errors by Scholl and the admin.
Now for that exact reason, everyone is telling me to shut up and enjoy our Marquette basketball because this is what we got and we ain't paying a buy-out during COVID. There shouldn't even be a buy-out to pay. We should've let the clock expire or told Wojo he gets his extension when we get one of the following (Sweet Sixteen, BET title, Big East Regular season title, top 3 NCAAT seed). If our coach wants to give up on recruiting because he doesn't have a perpetual four-year contract despite being paid millions for painfully underwhelming results or wants to shop himself out to Wake Forest and leak it publicly for that same reason, maybe he's just not a coach you want to have.
And the kicker is all of the above can stand independently before you even bring up Hausershima.
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This is just false. How many other P6 schools have a coach who’s been in his job as long as Wojo has without an NCAA win?
Here are a list of coaches who have been at their programs for about the same time with similar, or worse results:
Andy Enfeld at USC
Wayne Tinkle at Oregon State
Richard Pitino at Minnesota
Fran McCaffrey at Iowa
Chris Collins at Northwestern
Brad Brownell at Clemson
Jim Christian at BC
Ed Cooley at PC
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Here are a list of coaches who have been at their programs for about the same time with similar, or worse results:
Andy Enfeld at USC
Wayne Tinkle at Oregon State
Richard Pitino at Minnesota
Fran McCaffrey at Iowa
Chris Collins at Northwestern
Brad Brownell at Clemson
Jim Christian at BC
Ed Cooley at PC
And I’d guess that none of the schools above spend a fraction of what Marquette does on hoops
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I actually don't think our fanbase expects a lot. I think Kevin O'Neill type success would make people happy. Most MU fans would be fine with down years if they had confidence in the coach to get them back. But under Wojo, "next year" never seems to come.
MU missed the NCAA's 6 straight years before O'Neill arrived. For the most part, O'Neill's teams got better each year he was at MU. And, he left a pretty good situation for the next coach's first few years.
O'Neill was a more typical, struggle the first few seasons with very young good recruits, but make the NCAA's and Sweet 16 when those players become upper classmen and keep it going. This is more typical at other
successful places. Build something in 3-4 years and keep it going.
I mention this because the expectation for O'Neill after the Sweet 16 was to keep it going, meaning, almost annual NCAA's and mix Sweet 16's every so often, compete for league titles etc...those would have been K.O.'s expectations, meaning after he took a few seasons to build something, maintain it and add incremental growth to it. I don't believe people would have been happy if K.O. missed the NCAA's a few seasons after the Sweet 16 and then build again, etc...a cycle of a few years winning and a few years not. Making the NCAA's almost annually was a new expectation. Mixing in an additional Sweet 16 every so many years would have been a new expectation. Going beyond that every long while would have been a new expectation etc...
K.O also coached at a time when the men's basketball team shared the Old Gym basement weight room with maybe a half dozen other Marquette teams at the same time etc....not exactly apples to apples.
That is different from Wojo. This is year 7. I'd say by year 5 at most, years 3-4 more typical, the expectation is that the program is an almost annual NCAA team that mixes in NCAA tourney wins and runs. Wojo hasn't established that yet at this point.
In the expectation thread, my expectation this year would be to make the NCAA's and win a game there. It's based less on this year's personnel, and more on year 7, taking into account year's one through six.
If Wojo's name was John Dough from xyz state U, would he still be MU's coach right now? Many don't like starting over because it inevitably means a few year struggle during the change process.
I'm going to include 2020 as an NCAA season for Wojo. So, that makes 3 NCAA's in 6 seasons. Zero NCAA wins in 6 seasons. Zero seasons with less than 10 losses.
2 out of 6 seasons with a winning conference record. 2 out of 6 seasons with a top 5 conference record. That's his record so far at MU. If anything, my expectations haven't been yet thus far. Therefore, my expectations are higher this year, not lower. Someone might say good luck with that. And yes my expectations may or may not get met this year. But I am certainly not going to lower my expectations. Make the NCAA's and win a game. (Because he hasn't won an NCAA game yet. Just one game) If those expectations are too high, why are we here?
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And I’d guess that none of the schools above spend a fraction of what Marquette does on hoops
In some of the cases sure. But they spend enough. Remember that I think the figures about what Marquette spends compared to others is not an apple to apple comparison.
By the way, I am not providing this list as some defense of Wojo. I see a ton of coaching mediocrity on this list, and absolutely zero people I would want to replace Wojo.
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A fact to chew on: if Wojo coaches out the remainder of his contract, he will be the longest tenured coach in Marquette history since Al McGuire.
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In some of the cases sure. But they spend enough. Remember that I think the figures about what Marquette spends compared to others is not an apple to apple comparison.
By the way, I am not providing this list as some defense of Wojo. I see a ton of coaching mediocrity on this list, and absolutely zero people I would want to replace Wojo.
But you also see Fran McCaffery who has Iowa sitting awful pretty these days.
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Here are a list of coaches who have been at their programs for about the same time with similar, or worse results:
Andy Enfeld at USC
Wayne Tinkle at Oregon State
Richard Pitino at Minnesota
Fran McCaffrey at Iowa
Chris Collins at Northwestern
Brad Brownell at Clemson
Jim Christian at BC
Ed Cooley at PC
Thank you for providing this list. Lots of coaching mediocrity, and all of them mediocre (at best) bball programs. Certainly not “any other program in the country outside the top 10” as some have suggested.
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We can debate about the others, but there has been at least one shimmering golden opportunity - after the Murray State loss. Given everything I saw that season, and then the actual tournament game itself, I think it would've made sense to press release it before his plane landed back in Milwaukee. He went and shopped his name around immediately after this anyway, and we caved and granted an extension instead. What a comedy of errors by Scholl and the admin.
Now for that exact reason, everyone is telling me to shut up and enjoy our Marquette basketball because this is what we got and we ain't paying a buy-out during COVID. There shouldn't even be a buy-out to pay. We should've let the clock expire or told Wojo he gets his extension when we get one of the following (Sweet Sixteen, BET title, Big East Regular season title, top 3 NCAAT seed). If our coach wants to give up on recruiting because he doesn't have a perpetual four-year contract despite being paid millions for painfully underwhelming results or wants to shop himself out to Wake Forest and leak it publicly for that same reason, maybe he's just not a coach you want to have.
And the kicker is all of the above can stand independently before you even bring up Hausershima.
Name me a coach who has been fired immediately after earning a 5-seed or better in the NCAA tournament without significant off the court issues.
If you can't do that, the rest of your post is just noise. No program, not even the blue bloods, would have fired Wojo after Year 5.
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Curious .. what do people think will be Wojo's next job?
I mean, there is zero chance he will retire at MU in 30 years. So it's just a matter of time, whether that be 1-3-5-10 years, something. It's not if, it's when.
Since we haven't seen any evidence to the contrary, MU's program will continue to under-achieve as a middling-BE team. It's hard to fathom any top 50 team hiring Wojo for head coaching duties with that record.
At the moment .. I think Wojo's destiny is to go back to being an assistant somewhere.
Great, great.
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Curious .. what do people think will be Wojo's next job?
I mean, there is zero chance he will retire at MU in 30 years. So it's just a matter of time, whether that be 1-3-5-10 years, something. It's not if, it's when.
Since we haven't seen any evidence to the contrary, MU's program will continue to under-achieve as a middling-BE team. It's hard to fathom any top 50 team hiring Wojo for head coaching duties with that record.
At the moment .. I think Wojo's destiny is to go back to being an assistant somewhere.
Great, great.
Boston College. And he will be given a lot of leeway.
To add to this, Jim Christian's contract expires in '22. Pretty convenient.
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Here are a list of coaches who have been at their programs for about the same time with similar, or worse results:
Andy Enfeld at USC
Wayne Tinkle at Oregon State
Richard Pitino at Minnesota
Fran McCaffrey at Iowa
Chris Collins at Northwestern
Brad Brownell at Clemson
Jim Christian at BC
Ed Cooley at PC
It's an interesting list of schools. It isn't a list of schools with more recent success prior to their current coaches, and at some, not a lot of historical success either.
BC, Clemson, Minnesota, Providence, USC, have made the Sweet 16 twice (each) in the past 35 years. Iowa has done it 3 times in the past 35 years.
Oregon State has made the NCAA's once in the past 30 years.
Northwestern has made the NCAA's once in school history.
What does Marquette want to be? Does it want to be similar to the above schools? Better? Worse?
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Curious .. what do people think will be Wojo's next job?
I mean, there is zero chance he will retire at MU in 30 years. So it's just a matter of time, whether that be 1-3-5-10 years, something. It's not if, it's when.
Since we haven't seen any evidence to the contrary, MU's program will continue to under-achieve as a middling-BE team. It's hard to fathom any top 50 team hiring Wojo for head coaching duties with that record.
At the moment .. I think Wojo's destiny is to go back to being an assistant somewhere.
Great, great.
Duke obviously
But yeah BC or if Collins ever gets axed from Northwestern. He'd be great, no real expectations and keeping them average (which he can do) would exceed everything.
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Thank you for providing this list. Lots of coaching mediocrity, and all of them mediocre (at best) bball programs. Certainly not “any other program in the country outside the top 10” as some have suggested.
How does that list disprove my statement?
Find me a coach from a similar or worse program to Marquette who was either:
A. Fired after missing the postseason in year 1
B. Fired after missing the postseason in year 1 and 2 (I can think of one example personally)
C. Fired after making the NCAA tournament after two years of missing the postseason
D. Fired after making the NIT immediately after making the NCAA tournament the year before who's projected to have his best team yet the following year
E. Fired after making the NCAA tournament as a high seed after making the NIT the year before and the NCAA the year before that
F. Fired after making NCAA tournament for a second year in a row
All without significant off the court issues. Personally, I can only think of an example for B.
There have been coaches who have performed better than Wojo who have been fired. That is 100% true. The thing you are missing is that those coaches actually had a bad season where the school could justify firing them. Wojo has always done just enough to not got fired. Please don't mistake that for an endorsement. That's about the definition of "damning with faint praise."
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It wasn't that the loss happened, it was how inept and unprepared the team looked that has a lot of people rankled.
That's fine but I think those people are only looking at one side of the ball. Defense was very good and we dominated the glass. Offense was a sh*tshow. My observation in the past has been that it is easier for teams to get better on offense as the season goes on than it is for teams to get better on defense. We'll see if that holds true for us.
The rest of your post I agreed with.
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How does that list disprove my statement?
Find me a coach from a similar or worse program to Marquette who was either:
A. Fired after missing the postseason in year 1
B. Fired after missing the postseason in year 1 and 2 (I can think of one example personally)
C. Fired after making the NCAA tournament after two years of missing the postseason
D. Fired after making the NIT immediately after making the NCAA tournament the year before who's projected to have his best team yet the following year
E. Fired after making the NCAA tournament as a high seed after making the NIT the year before and the NCAA the year before that
F. Fired after making NCAA tournament for a second year in a row
All without significant off the court issues. Personally, I can only think of an example for B.
There have been coaches who have performed better than Wojo who have been fired. That is 100% true. The thing you are missing is that those coaches actually had a bad season where the school could justify firing them. Wojo has always done just enough to not got fired. Please don't mistake that for an endorsement. That's about the definition of "damning with faint praise."
I’m not the one who said they should’ve fired Wojo after year 5, however...
Mike Anderson at Arkansas: 8 seed in 2017 (with an NCAA win), 7 seed in 2018, NIT in 2019, fired. If Wojo achieved that in a three year stretch at MU, you’d be singing holies and hosannas between slurps. Or at the very least, you’d be posting similar things on Arkansas Scoop.
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That's fine but I think those people are only looking at one side of the ball. Defense was very good and we dominated the glass. Offense was a sh*tshow. My observation in the past has been that it is easier for teams to get better on offense as the season goes on than it is for teams to get better on defense. We'll see if that holds true for us.
The rest of your post I agreed with.
Yeah, if we can improve on offense we could become a top 5 team in the BEAST. We do seem to have a profound lack of confidence.
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I’m not the one who said they should’ve fired Wojo after year 5, however...
Mike Anderson at Arkansas: 8 seed in 2017 (with an NCAA win), 7 seed in 2018, NIT in 2019, fired. If Wojo achieved that in a three year stretch at MU, you’d be singing holies and hosannas between slurps. Or at the very least, you’d be posting similar things on Arkansas Scoop.
Mike Anderson was not projected to have his best team in 2020. He was projected to miss the postseason. Key difference. It was also in his 8th year at Arkansas and 17th year as a head coach. I suspect that in a non-pandemic year, Wojo would get the heave ho if he made the NIT this season. So no, I wouldn't be posting similar things on Arkansas Scoop.
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Mike Anderson was not projected to have his best team in 2020. He was projected to miss the postseason. Key difference. It was also in his 8th year at Arkansas and 17th year as a head coach. I suspect that in a non-pandemic year, Wojo would get the heave ho if he made the NIT this season. So no, I wouldn't be posting similar things on Arkansas Scoop.
Once the Hausers left, Wojo was no longer projected to have his best team in 2020. It would’ve been interesting if the pandemic hadn’t shut down the tourney. At a school with teeth, he’d have been coaching for his job in the 2020 tournament. Although I suspect landing Garcia might’ve bought him another year regardless.
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It's an interesting, if at times infuriating, conversation.
I happen to agree with TAMU's objective comment, concluding that few if any schools would have fired Wojo after any season so far. All manner of Scoopers are claiming now that they would have fired him in 2016 or 2017 or 2018 or 2019. But it's just not something the vast, vast, vast majority of schools do.
And for reasons already discussed, MU almost certainly isn't going to fire Wojo after this season, either, no matter how bad it might be (and I'm not ready to say it's gonna be bad yet).
Having acknowledged that, my next thought is: "If they don't fire him, what are we to do?"
Several Scoopers have said they have already all but given up on MU hoops. I guess that is one option.
I don't see me doing that. When they play, I'll watch every game ... and I'll be happy when we win and frustrated when we lose. When COVID-19 is wiped out 1 or 3 or 10 years from now, I'll still travel to attend a couple games a year if I can. I'm keep reading Scoop for recruiting news and other stuff. I'll criticize Wojo when I feel it's warranted (as I did after Tuesday's game, as I did several times last season, and as I did after Hausershima). And I'll try to be as realistic as I can be.
So I guess it's up to all y'all Scoopers with real power, connections and money. Start working behind the scenes to influence MU administrators. You're up!
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It's an interesting, if at times infuriating, conversation.
I happen to agree with TAMU's objective comment, concluding that few if any schools would have fired Wojo after any season so far. All manner of Scoopers are claiming now that they would have fired him in 2016 or 2017 or 2018 or 2019. But it's just not something the vast, vast, vast majority of schools do.
And for reasons already discussed, MU almost certainly isn't going to fire Wojo after this season, either, no matter how bad it might be (and I'm not ready to say it's gonna be bad yet).
Having acknowledged that, my next thought is: "If they don't fire him, what are we to do?"
Several Scoopers have said they have already all but given up on MU hoops. I guess that is one option.
I don't see me doing that. When they play, I'll watch every game ... and I'll be happy when we win and frustrated when we lose. When COVID-19 is wiped out 1 or 3 or 10 years from now, I'll still travel to attend a couple games a year if I can. I'm keep reading Scoop for recruiting news and other stuff. I'll criticize Wojo when I feel it's warranted (as I did after Tuesday's game, as I did several times last season, and as I did after Hausershima). And I'll try to be as realistic as I can be.
So I guess it's up to all y'all Scoopers with real power, connections and money. Start working behind the scenes to influence MU administrators. You're up!
I don't think anyone (or the vast majority of people) who are giving up won't be paying attention, hoping for more, and will completely stop paying attention. my personal example: I used to be shouting at the TV, driving up for games, would go to (or organize) MU game watching events. Now I'll still go to MU v UW, National MU day, and when the ND series returns but "L's" won't ruin the day. It'll be ok as we limp to a 4th-6th place finish and sit between an 8 seed NCAA & 2 seed NIT, I'll check the scores if it's a game I don't care about. I won't be buying jerseys and organizing or attending big events instead rather meeting with a couple buddies and watch the game casually.
Essentially this is a long worded way to say I think people "giving up on MUBB" means really giving up on expectations, emotional investment, and hope, not their fandom overall.
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We can debate about the others, but there has been at least one shimmering golden opportunity - after the Murray State loss. Given everything I saw that season, and then the actual tournament game itself, I think it would've made sense to press release it before his plane landed back in Milwaukee. He went and shopped his name around immediately after this anyway, and we caved and granted an extension instead. What a comedy of errors by Scholl and the admin.
Now for that exact reason, everyone is telling me to shut up and enjoy our Marquette basketball because this is what we got and we ain't paying a buy-out during COVID. There shouldn't even be a buy-out to pay. We should've let the clock expire or told Wojo he gets his extension when we get one of the following (Sweet Sixteen, BET title, Big East Regular season title, top 3 NCAAT seed). If our coach wants to give up on recruiting because he doesn't have a perpetual four-year contract despite being paid millions for painfully underwhelming results or wants to shop himself out to Wake Forest and leak it publicly for that same reason, maybe he's just not a coach you want to have.
And the kicker is all of the above can stand independently before you even bring up Hausershima.
Source?
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Source?
Steve Wojo
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Steve Wojo
Lol. So no source. Got it.
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He didn't shop himself to Wake Forest last spring. Rumor is he reached out to Virginia Tech, or VT reached out to him, when Buzz left.
But the fact is that if you play D1 basketball at the highest level, you grant extensions. But those extensions are meaningless if the buyout is manageable. So all this talk about the extension is meaningless unless you know what the buy out is. And we don't know that. But this is the game you gotta play.
And I'm sorry there was ZERO chance Wojo was going to get fired after Murray State. NONE. Get real people. Honestly all of these people talking tough on message boards who have no idea how to manage a modern, D1 athletic program...
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Honestly all of these people talking tough on message boards who have no idea how to manage a modern, D1 athletic program...
Neither does Wojo, that's the point of the thread. Not sure how much more evidence you need. His teams don't improve. By all accounts I read, he sounds like a genuine guy that parents and players respond to. That's great, he should be a lead recruiting assistant coach.
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I don't think anyone (or the vast majority of people) who are giving up won't be paying attention, hoping for more, and will completely stop paying attention. my personal example: I used to be shouting at the TV, driving up for games, would go to (or organize) MU game watching events. Now I'll still go to MU v UW, National MU day, and when the ND series returns but "L's" won't ruin the day. It'll be ok as we limp to a 4th-6th place finish and sit between an 8 seed NCAA & 2 seed NIT, I'll check the scores if it's a game I don't care about. I won't be buying jerseys and organizing or attending big events instead rather meeting with a couple buddies and watch the game casually.
Essentially this is a long worded way to say I think people "giving up on MUBB" means really giving up on expectations, emotional investment, and hope, not their fandom overall.
This is exactly what happens as you age and discover that other things matter more than Marquette and MUBB.
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Neither does Wojo, that's the point of the thread. Not sure how much more evidence you need. His teams don't improve. By all accounts I read, he sounds like a genuine guy that parents and players respond to. That's great, he should be a lead recruiting assistant coach.
I'm talking about the Athletic Department overall. We have people saying he should have been fired in the Spring of 2019 after they lost to Murray State. That's absurd.
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Here are a list of coaches who have been at their programs for about the same time with similar, or worse results:
Andy Enfeld at USC
Wayne Tinkle at Oregon State
Richard Pitino at Minnesota
Fran McCaffrey at Iowa
Chris Collins at Northwestern
Brad Brownell at Clemson
Jim Christian at BC
Ed Cooley at PC
Willard - 8 seasons before his 1st
Drew - 7 seasons
Hamilton - 9 seasons
Leito just a year less but zero appearances
You could count Chambers at Penn State who took 9 seasons to make his first tournament (they were in last year) and he wasn't fired because of his record.
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Willard - 8 seasons before his 1st
Drew - 7 seasons
Hamilton - 9 seasons
Leito just a year less but zero appearances
You could count Chambers at Penn State who took 9 seasons to make his first tournament (they were in last year) and he wasn't fired because of his record.
Willard won the BET in his 6th year at Seton Hall, something I've repeatedly said would grant Wojo goodwill for no tourney wins. Scott Drew took over a Baylor program that hadn't gone to the NCAAT since 1988. Leonard Hamilton took over a program with one tourney appearance in the decade prior to his hiring. You're proud to have Leitao and DePaul as our peer group? Or Chambers and Penn State?
Context is everything. Our program was left to Wojo with much more prestige and winning tradition than it has now. The coaches you named above were forced to build tradition from scratch. The more you argue that Wojo's results are acceptable because they put us in the same boat as DePaul, Penn State, and Baylor in the 00s, the more you play into the hands of mediocrity.
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I don't think anyone (or the vast majority of people) who are giving up won't be paying attention, hoping for more, and will completely stop paying attention. my personal example: I used to be shouting at the TV, driving up for games, would go to (or organize) MU game watching events. Now I'll still go to MU v UW, National MU day, and when the ND series returns but "L's" won't ruin the day. It'll be ok as we limp to a 4th-6th place finish and sit between an 8 seed NCAA & 2 seed NIT, I'll check the scores if it's a game I don't care about. I won't be buying jerseys and organizing or attending big events instead rather meeting with a couple buddies and watch the game casually.
Essentially this is a long worded way to say I think people "giving up on MUBB" means really giving up on expectations, emotional investment, and hope, not their fandom overall.
I understand. Thanks for the response.
This is exactly what happens as you age and discover that other things matter more than Marquette and MUBB.
Yep, for many this is certainly true.
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Once the Hausers left, Wojo was no longer projected to have his best team in 2020. It would’ve been interesting if the pandemic hadn’t shut down the tourney. At a school with teeth, he’d have been coaching for his job in the 2020 tournament. Although I suspect landing Garcia might’ve bought him another year regardless.
Mike Anderson was fired after making the NIT. The only year Wojo made the NIT was year 4. At the time, Year 5 was projected to be better than years 1-4. The Hausers didn't leave until after Year 5. Your analogies are getting mixed up.
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The more you argue that Wojo's results are acceptable
This is what you don't seem to get. I don't think anyone is arguing that the results are acceptable. They are pointing out that they aren't fireable. There is a gap between the two that Wojo lives in. You need to actually have a season bad enough to justify firing a coach before you can fire a coach. Wojo has always just cleared that hurdle. Unless he improves, the first time he actually fails to clear that hurdle, he will be fired...or at least he would be in non-global pandemic times.
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That's fine but I think those people are only looking at one side of the ball. Defense was very good and we dominated the glass. Offense was a sh*tshow. My observation in the past has been that it is easier for teams to get better on offense as the season goes on than it is for teams to get better on defense. We'll see if that holds true for us.
The rest of your post I agreed with.
Plus, Wojo has a had some of the top offenses in the country, even last season (12th) without the Brothers Grim where he had to scramble to fill their spots. MU has one bad game offensively where we can see some of the parts having value once roles are set. This is area where fans should have patience versus other areas.
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This is what you don't seem to get. I don't think anyone is arguing that the results are acceptable. They are pointing out that they aren't fireable.
If they are unacceptable they are fireable. For an NCAA basketball coach. Unacceptable results are not firable? We MUST live with the mediocrity?
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Willard won the BET in his 6th year at Seton Hall, something I've repeatedly said would grant Wojo goodwill for no tourney wins. Scott Drew took over a Baylor program that hadn't gone to the NCAAT since 1988. Leonard Hamilton took over a program with one tourney appearance in the decade prior to his hiring. You're proud to have Leitao and DePaul as our peer group? Or Chambers and Penn State?
Context is everything. Our program was left to Wojo with much more prestige and winning tradition than it has now. The coaches you named above were forced to build tradition from scratch. The more you argue that Wojo's results are acceptable because they put us in the same boat as DePaul, Penn State, and Baylor in the 00s, the more you play into the hands of mediocrity.
How many programs fire their coach after NCAA appearances in 3/4 years (this assumes they make it in last year)?
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Mike Anderson was fired after making the NIT. The only year Wojo made the NIT was year 4. At the time, Year 5 was projected to be better than years 1-4. The Hausers didn't leave until after Year 5. Your analogies are getting mixed up.
I understand Mike Anderson was fired after making the NIT. I merely used him as an example of a coach who had had recent success (more success than Wojo, actually) and got fired. True, he wasn't coming off a 5 seed in the tournament, but he'd done fairly well at a school where basketball is, at best, second banana to football. As TAMU Razorback would say, "No school in the SEC not named Florida would fire a coach who'd made three straight post seasons, including the NCAA tournament in two out of the last three seasons."
Wojo missing the NCAA tournament in Year 4 with a roster that included Sam, Howard, and Rowsey, three of the best 3-point shooters in the country (if not *the* best), was an absolute disgrace and Wojo's worst coaching job, but that's a different topic altogether.
Here's what I was saying, and I'm posing it as a question to you: If MU had lost to Seton Hall in the Big East tournament last year (which they almost certainly would have), do you think Wojo would've been coaching for his job in the NCAA Tournament, assuming MU would've been selected? My guess is Garcia's commitment bought him another year, but it would've been interesting.
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I understand Mike Anderson was fired after making the NIT. I merely used him as an example of a coach who had had recent success (more success than Wojo, actually) and got fired. True, he wasn't coming off a 5 seed in the tournament, but he'd done fairly well at a school where basketball is, at best, second banana to football. As TAMU Razorback would say, "No school in the SEC not named Florida would fire a coach who'd made three straight post seasons, including the NCAA tournament in two out of the last three seasons."
I don't think you have a good understanding of how important basketball is to Arkansas.
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I understand Mike Anderson was fired after making the NIT. I merely used him as an example of a coach who had had recent success (more success than Wojo, actually) and got fired. True, he wasn't coming off a 5 seed in the tournament, but he'd done fairly well at a school where basketball is, at best, second banana to football. As TAMU Razorback would say, "No school in the SEC not named Florida would fire a coach who'd made three straight post seasons, including the NCAA tournament in two out of the last three seasons."
Wojo missing the NCAA tournament in Year 4 with a roster that included Sam, Howard, and Rowsey, three of the best 3-point shooters in the country (if not *the* best), was an absolute disgrace and Wojo's worst coaching job, but that's a different topic altogether.
Here's what I was saying, and I'm posing it as a question to you: If MU had lost to Seton Hall in the Big East tournament last year (which they almost certainly would have), do you think Wojo would've been coaching for his job in the NCAA Tournament, assuming MU would've been selected? My guess is Garcia's commitment bought him another year, but it would've been interesting.
It bought him two.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=59473.msg1179586#msg1179586
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I think in addition to the expectations of our fanbase, which as Sultan noted aren't particularly unrealistic considering where we were at when Wojo was hired, is the comparison game. When this league was formed, we were perceived both internally and externally as one of, if not the, top programs in the league. But instead of challenging for titles, we've had one top-2 finish and haven't won more than one BET game in any given year nor beaten any team better than a 7-seed in the BET.
Meanwhile, Villanova has become the new blue blood we all wish we could've become (and were positioned to become when the league formed). Programs we have perennially viewed as lesser than us, like Seton Hall, Providence, Creighton, and Xavier have all found reasons to hang banners while we have nothing tangible to show for the past 7 years beyond scoring records.
Here's where we rank since Wojo took over in a few categories that fans would seem to get excited about, and remember we were supposed to be the team to beat in the New Big East:
- Big East Wins: 7th: Villanova (87), Providence (70), Xavier (64), Seton Hall (60), Butler (60), and Creighton (55) are all ahead of us (51).
- Big East Tournament Wins: 5th (tied): Villanova (14), Xavier (7), Seton Hall (6), and Providence (5) are all ahead of us. We are tied with St. John's (4).
- NCAA Appearances: 6th (tied): Villanova (5), Butler (4), Providence (4), Seton Hall (4), and Xavier (4) all have at least twice our appearances (2). We are tied with St. John's and Creighton.
- NCAA Wins: 7th (tied) Villanova (15), Xavier (7), and Butler (5) lead the way, but Georgetown, Providence, and Seton Hall have also each notched a tourney win.
What does this mean? I would say we are the (at best) 6th best program since Wojo took over. Villanova, Xavier, Providence, and Seton Hall are all clearly better than we are, exceeding our efforts in every one of the above categories. Butler beats us in 3/4 categories. I'd say we are on par with Creighton, though their Big East title last year probably gives them a slight edge.
I just don't understand how by any measure we have met expectations, or come close to that since Wojo's hire. How could anyone be satisfied with us perennially being a bottom half Big East team?
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Willard won the BET in his 6th year at Seton Hall, something I've repeatedly said would grant Wojo goodwill for no tourney wins. Scott Drew took over a Baylor program that hadn't gone to the NCAAT since 1988. Leonard Hamilton took over a program with one tourney appearance in the decade prior to his hiring. You're proud to have Leitao and DePaul as our peer group? Or Chambers and Penn State?
Context is everything. Our program was left to Wojo with much more prestige and winning tradition than it has now. The coaches you named above were forced to build tradition from scratch. The more you argue that Wojo's results are acceptable because they put us in the same boat as DePaul, Penn State, and Baylor in the 00s, the more you play into the hands of mediocrity.
well stated
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I think in addition to the expectations of our fanbase, which as Sultan noted aren't particularly unrealistic considering where we were at when Wojo was hired, is the comparison game. When this league was formed, we were perceived both internally and externally as one of, if not the, top programs in the league. But instead of challenging for titles, we've had one top-2 finish and haven't won more than one BET game in any given year nor beaten any team better than a 7-seed in the BET.
Meanwhile, Villanova has become the new blue blood we all wish we could've become (and were positioned to become when the league formed). Programs we have perennially viewed as lesser than us, like Seton Hall, Providence, Creighton, and Xavier have all found reasons to hang banners while we have nothing tangible to show for the past 7 years beyond scoring records.
Here's where we rank since Wojo took over in a few categories that fans would seem to get excited about, and remember we were supposed to be the team to beat in the New Big East:
- Big East Wins: 7th: Villanova (87), Providence (70), Xavier (64), Seton Hall (60), Butler (60), and Creighton (55) are all ahead of us (51).
- Big East Tournament Wins: 5th (tied): Villanova (14), Xavier (7), Seton Hall (6), and Providence (5) are all ahead of us. We are tied with St. John's (4).
- NCAA Appearances: 6th (tied): Villanova (5), Butler (4), Providence (4), Seton Hall (4), and Xavier (4) all have at least twice our appearances (2). We are tied with St. John's and Creighton.
- NCAA Wins: 7th (tied) Villanova (15), Xavier (7), and Butler (5) lead the way, but Georgetown, Providence, and Seton Hall have also each notched a tourney win.
What does this mean? I would say we are the (at best) 6th best program since Wojo took over. Villanova, Xavier, Providence, and Seton Hall are all clearly better than we are, exceeding our efforts in every one of the above categories. Butler beats us in 3/4 categories. I'd say we are on par with Creighton, though their Big East title last year probably gives them a slight edge.
I just don't understand how by any measure we have met expectations, or come close to that since Wojo's hire. How could anyone be satisfied with us perennially being a bottom half Big East team?
We were not positioned to become a blue blood when this iteration of the Big East formed.
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This is what you don't seem to get. I don't think anyone is arguing that the results are acceptable. They are pointing out that they aren't fireable. There is a gap between the two that Wojo lives in. You need to actually have a season bad enough to justify firing a coach before you can fire a coach. Wojo has always just cleared that hurdle. Unless he improves, the first time he actually fails to clear that hurdle, he will be fired...or at least he would be in non-global pandemic times.
How many chances does one get to do just enough to not get fired before the pattern of doing just enough to not get fired becomes the issue?
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We were not positioned to become a blue blood when this iteration of the Big East formed.
Neither was Villanova, yet here we are. We were certainly better positioned than Villanova was in November 2013.
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I think in addition to the expectations of our fanbase, which as Sultan noted aren't particularly unrealistic considering where we were at when Wojo was hired, is the comparison game. When this league was formed, we were perceived both internally and externally as one of, if not the, top programs in the league. But instead of challenging for titles, we've had one top-2 finish and haven't won more than one BET game in any given year nor beaten any team better than a 7-seed in the BET.
Meanwhile, Villanova has become the new blue blood we all wish we could've become (and were positioned to become when the league formed). Programs we have perennially viewed as lesser than us, like Seton Hall, Providence, Creighton, and Xavier have all found reasons to hang banners while we have nothing tangible to show for the past 7 years beyond scoring records.
Here's where we rank since Wojo took over in a few categories that fans would seem to get excited about, and remember we were supposed to be the team to beat in the New Big East:
- Big East Wins: 7th: Villanova (87), Providence (70), Xavier (64), Seton Hall (60), Butler (60), and Creighton (55) are all ahead of us (51).
- Big East Tournament Wins: 5th (tied): Villanova (14), Xavier (7), Seton Hall (6), and Providence (5) are all ahead of us. We are tied with St. John's (4).
- NCAA Appearances: 6th (tied): Villanova (5), Butler (4), Providence (4), Seton Hall (4), and Xavier (4) all have at least twice our appearances (2). We are tied with St. John's and Creighton.
- NCAA Wins: 7th (tied) Villanova (15), Xavier (7), and Butler (5) lead the way, but Georgetown, Providence, and Seton Hall have also each notched a tourney win.
What does this mean? I would say we are the (at best) 6th best program since Wojo took over. Villanova, Xavier, Providence, and Seton Hall are all clearly better than we are, exceeding our efforts in every one of the above categories. Butler beats us in 3/4 categories. I'd say we are on par with Creighton, though their Big East title last year probably gives them a slight edge.
I just don't understand how by any measure we have met expectations, or come close to that since Wojo's hire. How could anyone be satisfied with us perennially being a bottom half Big East team?
This post should be pinned to the top of the board.
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How many programs fire their coach after NCAA appearances in 3/4 years (this assumes they make it in last year)?
apparently MU’s admin is ok with ‘average’. And, I’d question if Lovell really understands the importance of MU hoops to MU. True, Lovell is probably worried about declining enrollment, campus over-build, prof layoffs etc etc. However, considering the $-maker MU men’s hoops is, how can Lovell & co. not see that the basketball program is rimming into irrelevance? Thus, doesn’t irrelevance to the brink of hopelessness require a new voice? Wojo is honest, represents the university at a high level...but that shouldn’t be a standard. That’s expected. The standard needs to be, at least at Marquette, winning ncaa tournament games. Emphasis on plural. Winning tournament games, as we all know, hasn’t happened under Wojo. btw, tomorrow night is gonna be nasty (hope like heck I’m wrong).
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This is what you don't seem to get. I don't think anyone is arguing that the results are acceptable. They are pointing out that they aren't fireable. There is a gap between the two that Wojo lives in. You need to actually have a season bad enough to justify firing a coach before you can fire a coach. Wojo has always just cleared that hurdle. Unless he improves, the first time he actually fails to clear that hurdle, he will be fired...or at least he would be in non-global pandemic times.
Do you work for a union or the government? His results are not acceptable but not bad enough to be fired? I can't reconcile this difference. In my world, you get the job done or move on. He's not a postal worker and is not paid like one.
As for Wojo getting better, I think 7 years in shows he's not head coach material. Great guy and classy person but not a high major head coach.
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This is what you don't seem to get. I don't think anyone is arguing that the results are acceptable. They are pointing out that they aren't fireable.
I understand the "season in isolation" argument. However, I do think the global trend would make the decision a lot more justifiable. 7th in the league in conference wins and NCAA wins, 6th in NCAA appearances, 5th in Big East Tournament wins since his arrival. While one can make an argument that none of the individual seasons given time and place were fireable instances, the body of work does not match the program investment Marquette makes.
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I think in addition to the expectations of our fanbase, which as Sultan noted aren't particularly unrealistic considering where we were at when Wojo was hired, is the comparison game. When this league was formed, we were perceived both internally and externally as one of, if not the, top programs in the league. But instead of challenging for titles, we've had one top-2 finish and haven't won more than one BET game in any given year nor beaten any team better than a 7-seed in the BET.
Meanwhile, Villanova has become the new blue blood we all wish we could've become (and were positioned to become when the league formed). Programs we have perennially viewed as lesser than us, like Seton Hall, Providence, Creighton, and Xavier have all found reasons to hang banners while we have nothing tangible to show for the past 7 years beyond scoring records.
Here's where we rank since Wojo took over in a few categories that fans would seem to get excited about, and remember we were supposed to be the team to beat in the New Big East:
- Big East Wins: 7th: Villanova (87), Providence (70), Xavier (64), Seton Hall (60), Butler (60), and Creighton (55) are all ahead of us (51).
- Big East Tournament Wins: 5th (tied): Villanova (14), Xavier (7), Seton Hall (6), and Providence (5) are all ahead of us. We are tied with St. John's (4).
- NCAA Appearances: 6th (tied): Villanova (5), Butler (4), Providence (4), Seton Hall (4), and Xavier (4) all have at least twice our appearances (2). We are tied with St. John's and Creighton.
- NCAA Wins: 7th (tied) Villanova (15), Xavier (7), and Butler (5) lead the way, but Georgetown, Providence, and Seton Hall have also each notched a tourney win.
What does this mean? I would say we are the (at best) 6th best program since Wojo took over. Villanova, Xavier, Providence, and Seton Hall are all clearly better than we are, exceeding our efforts in every one of the above categories. Butler beats us in 3/4 categories. I'd say we are on par with Creighton, though their Big East title last year probably gives them a slight edge.
I just don't understand how by any measure we have met expectations, or come close to that since Wojo's hire. How could anyone be satisfied with us perennially being a bottom half Big East team?
Aside from agreeing with ATL MU Warrior that we were not "positioned to become" a blue blood, I am totally on board with everything in your outstanding post, brewski.
I certainly am not satisfied with what my alma mater's basketball team has accomplished under Wojo at all.
Now, if you had the say over hiring and firing, when since April 1, 2014, would you have fired Wojo?
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Do you work for a union or the government? His results are not acceptable but not bad enough to be fired? I can't reconcile this difference. In my world, you get the job done or move on. He's not a postal worker and is not paid like one.
As for Wojo getting better, I think 7 years in shows he's not head coach material. Great guy and classy person but not a high major head coach.
Amen.
Your results are not acceptable, but we are accepting them. Internally inconsistent.
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Do you work for a union or the government? His results are not acceptable but not bad enough to be fired? I can't reconcile this difference. In my world, you get the job done or move on. He's not a postal worker and is not paid like one.
As for Wojo getting better, I think 7 years in shows he's not head coach material. Great guy and classy person but not a high major head coach.
1) A 5-seed is good, acceptable.
2) Wojo's recruiting classes always yield hope that 'this time is different' a la "we can't fire this guy! Have you seen the class coming in?!?"
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Currently ranks in the bottom half of the conference
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How many chances does one get to do just enough to not get fired before the pattern of doing just enough to not get fired becomes the issue?
You must have never worked in lower-end corporate America
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Wojo is the worst kind of coach—not bad enough to fire and not good enough to keep around.
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You must have never worked in lower-end corporate America
I kind of get this but he's not being paid to push a broom. I feel like for half the salary MU could get a coach could get MU to 6th to 8th in the Big East. I don't want to make this a simple money issue, but I just feel MU has more potential that Wojo is delivering.
From what I've heard, nothing is happening with him this year. No firing and no extension. After the season, anything is possible.
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I kind of get this but he's not being paid to push a broom. I feel like for half the salary MU could get a coach could get MU to 6th to 8th in the Big East. I don't want to make this a simple money issue, but I just feel MU has more potential that Wojo is delivering.
From what I've heard, nothing is happening with him this year. No firing and no extension. After the season, anything is possible.
Oh. I agree that wojo should probably be done here.
But doing just enough not to get fired has gotten individuals very far in life
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Oh. I agree that wojo should probably be done here.
But doing just enough not to get fired has gotten individuals very far in life
Got you. Agreed.
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A few optical notes of the Woja-era:
Positives
Strong recruiting
Strong graduation rates
No off-court issues
2015 Legends Classic Champions
Beat #7 Creighton in Omaha in 2017
Beating #1 Villanova at home in 2017
Beat #12 KSU at Fiserv in 2018
Reached #10 in 2019
Beat #12 Wisconsin in 2019
Markus Howard's rise to one of best players in all of college basketball
Negatives
Zero NCAA Tournament wins
Sub-.500 Conference Record
Two NCAA Tournament appearances
Hausergate (perhaps also throw in the end of the Ellensons as well)
Consecutive collapses at end-of-season ('19 and '20)
(by my count) 12-25 record against top-25 teams (.342)
Blowout Gavitt Games (Iowa in '15, Purdue in '17, and Indiana in '18)
Struggles against DePaul (four of the seven losses to DePaul since 2000 have occurred during the Wojo-era and the Blue Demons have finished 9th or 10th almost every single year).
At an overwhelming majority of D1 schools, this would be a phenomenal resume; however, for a self-viewed (and perhaps even nationally-viewed) top-25 program, it is very fair to say the consistency has not been there and that certain expectations have not been met. I, too, do not view the body of work as a fireable offense at all. I think the "issue" that has been alluded to is that Wojo has not been good enough to have been poached away yet but is not terrible enough to be shown the door. Marquette is viewed as having the #2 athletic department by peers within D1 (https://www.athleticdirectoru.com/articles/athletic-department-power-index-big-east/ (https://www.athleticdirectoru.com/articles/athletic-department-power-index-big-east/)); unfortunately, men's basketball hasn't really consistently shown that under Wojo's tenure which is no doubt frustrating to all here.
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Some people think politics is the bane of Scoop.
Me? I think the annual puke fest over firing Wojo is what makes Scoop less readable.
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Aside from agreeing with ATL MU Warrior that we were not "positioned to become" a blue blood, I am totally on board with everything in your outstanding post, brewski.
I certainly am not satisfied with what my alma mater's basketball team has accomplished under Wojo at all.
Now, if you had the say over hiring and firing, when since April 1, 2014, would you have fired Wojo?
First of all, the genesis of this post is the comparison game. I don't think there's any debate that we were better positioned than Villanova to become a noveau blue blood. We were coming off S16/S16/E8. We had the #1 recruiting class in the conference in 2013 and were headed in a similar direction for 2014 with Ahmed Hill, Marial Shayok, and Sandy Cohen. We were picked first in the Big East and the highest ranked program in the league. We were investing more money in our program and had the best facilities in the league.
Compared to Villanova, we were in better position to become what Villanova has become than they were. On paper, we appeared to be in a better place. I don't think that's even a particularly close debate. Obviously we lost a coach and Jay Wright blossomed, but when this league started, we were in the catbird seat.
As far as when I would've fired him, see my post responding to TAMU. It isn't necessarily any one year but body of work. If there was one moment, I think it was after the Hausers left. We went from a top-10 ranking to a complete capitulation, then saw the roster for what should've been a top-5 team fall apart in a matter of days. The period from February 27, 2019 to April 16, 2019 when we lost 6/7 games, lost the Big East title, failed to reach the Big East title game, were upset in the NCAA Tournament first round, and lost two of our three most important players to transfer was a bottoming out to date.
Shortly after that would have been the moment. It is the moment when I first wrote Bill Scholl to express my concerns about the future of the program under Wojo. For the most part, all the trends we've seen since that moment has only reinforced what I began to believe at that time: Wojo is not the guy to lead our program.
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How many chances does one get to do just enough to not get fired before the pattern of doing just enough to not get fired becomes the issue?
It's like being a Packer fan during the Forrest Gregg era...
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MU82
I know you are asking Brew when Wojo could/should have been fired and I wanted to jump in on the conversation. I do not recall when I jumped off the Wojo train exactly but it definitely has not been recently. Several years ago I noted I did not think that Wojo was a gifted enough game coach to win without having real talent on the court. Some coaches can win with any kids because they built a system that works and I felt that was lacking.
I remember TAMU noting that Wojo was running the Duke offense and I looked up the Duke offense on the internet. I remember thinking that offense must need to be run by 4 and 5 star players or Wojo did not learn the system very well during his nearly two decades in the program. I have said countless times on here but Wojo has looked like he was in over his head in this position. Sadly, I still feel the same way.
Hope all is well in NC.
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If they are unacceptable they are fireable. For an NCAA basketball coach. Unacceptable results are not firable? We MUST live with the mediocrity?
How many chances does one get to do just enough to not get fired before the pattern of doing just enough to not get fired becomes the issue?
Do you work for a union or the government? His results are not acceptable but not bad enough to be fired? I can't reconcile this difference. In my world, you get the job done or move on. He's not a postal worker and is not paid like one.
I knew when I posted that using 5dollar's word of "acceptable" would red herring people away from the point. Mea culpa. The piece you are missing is something Brew eludes to here:
I understand the "season in isolation" argument. However, I do think the global trend would make the decision a lot more justifiable. 7th in the league in conference wins and NCAA wins, 6th in NCAA appearances, 5th in Big East Tournament wins since his arrival. While one can make an argument that none of the individual seasons given time and place were fireable instances, the body of work does not match the program investment Marquette makes.
We've often heard that college basketball is a "what have you done for me lately" business. That usually means that if you are bad recently you can get fired despite previous good results. It cuts the other way too. Outside of blue bloods, if a coach makes the NCAAT, his job is safe for at least a year without off the court issues. There's literally only one example contradicting that rule in the past 20 years (and probably further back, I just haven't looked that far back) and the results for that school were terrible.
You can scream all you want, but that's a fact of life. You can certainly argue that it doesn't matter that it isn't done at other schools and Wojo should be fired any way. That's a fine opinion. Just understand you are asking Marquette to do something that literally one other school has done in the past thousand or so non-blue blood job openings. I know some of you believe that MU has unlimited resources, but they can't afford to fire a coach every time he gets too low of a seed in the NCAAT for the fans' liking. If he makes the dance, he will keep his job, it's as simple as that.
That being said, what some seem to be missing from my posts is that if misses the NCAAT, there's enough ammunition to justify firing him...when there isn't a global pandemic. I don't know what it would take in a global pandemic to make that happen.
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First of all, the genesis of this post is the comparison game. I don't think there's any debate that we were better positioned than Villanova to become a noveau blue blood. We were coming off S16/S16/E8. We had the #1 recruiting class in the conference in 2013 and were headed in a similar direction for 2014 with Ahmed Hill, Marial Shayok, and Sandy Cohen. We were picked first in the Big East and the highest ranked program in the league. We were investing more money in our program and had the best facilities in the league.
Compared to Villanova, we were in better position to become what Villanova has become than they were. On paper, we appeared to be in a better place. I don't think that's even a particularly close debate. Obviously we lost a coach and Jay Wright blossomed, but when this league started, we were in the catbird seat.
As far as when I would've fired him, see my post responding to TAMU. It isn't necessarily any one year but body of work. If there was one moment, I think it was after the Hausers left. We went from a top-10 ranking to a complete capitulation, then saw the roster for what should've been a top-5 team fall apart in a matter of days. The period from February 27, 2019 to April 16, 2019 when we lost 6/7 games, lost the Big East title, failed to reach the Big East title game, were upset in the NCAA Tournament first round, and lost two of our three most important players to transfer was a bottoming out to date.
Shortly after that would have been the moment. It is the moment when I first wrote Bill Scholl to express my concerns about the future of the program under Wojo. For the most part, all the trends we've seen since that moment has only reinforced what I began to believe at that time: Wojo is not the guy to lead our program.
Did Scholl respond to your concerns?
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I understand Mike Anderson was fired after making the NIT. I merely used him as an example of a coach who had had recent success (more success than Wojo, actually) and got fired. True, he wasn't coming off a 5 seed in the tournament, but he'd done fairly well at a school where basketball is, at best, second banana to football.
See the above post for why that comparison doesn't make sense. Absolutely no program would have fired Wojo after year 5. Not even the Blue Bloods.
As TAMU Razorback would say, "No school in the SEC not named Florida would fire a coach who'd made three straight post seasons, including the NCAA tournament in two out of the last three seasons."
I am repeatedly on record as saying that if Wojo missed the NCAA this season he should be canned (but recognize he likely won't be because of COVID) so I'm not sure why you keep repeating this line.
Wojo missing the NCAA tournament in Year 4 with a roster that included Sam, Howard, and Rowsey, three of the best 3-point shooters in the country (if not *the* best), was an absolute disgrace and Wojo's worst coaching job, but that's a different topic altogether.
That is a different topic. But I'll quickly point out that KenPom had us pegged for #49 based on our returning roster preseason. We ended at #53. I'd argue year 2 and 6 were much bigger failures.
Here's what I was saying, and I'm posing it as a question to you: If MU had lost to Seton Hall in the Big East tournament last year (which they almost certainly would have), do you think Wojo would've been coaching for his job in the NCAA Tournament, assuming MU would've been selected? My guess is Garcia's commitment bought him another year, but it would've been interesting.
Absolutely not. Marquette was already considered safely in the NCAAT. You make the dance, you are safe (without off the court issues).
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Wojo reminds me of the Marquette basketball coach manifestation of the Bucks fighting for the 8 seed for a decade. It wasn't until Kohl sold the team and the rebuild was embraced that they began to turn a corner.
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Did Scholl respond to your concerns?
Nope. Generally, Mike Broeker is very responsive, but Scholl is not. Though I'm not a big dollar donor, so I guess I'm beneath his notice.
Outside of blue bloods, if a coach makes the NCAAT, his job is safe for at least a year without off the court issues. There's literally only one example contradicting that rule in the past 20 years (and probably further back, I just haven't looked that far back) and the results for that school were terrible...
...That being said, what some seem to be missing from my posts is that if misses the NCAAT, there's enough ammunition to justify firing him...when there isn't a global pandemic. I don't know what it would take in a global pandemic to make that happen.
I get the financials suck. Honestly, I feel the best hope is for Wojo to get hired away so someone else pays or negotiates a buyout and Marquette doesn't have to pay two coaches at once.
But I'm curious...who is that one coach? I feel like there are more than one in the past 20 years to get fired after a NCAA bid. Maybe some have off-court issues, but is it just Rick Barnes?
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See the above post for why that comparison doesn't make sense. Absolutely no program would have fired Wojo after year 5. Not even the Blue Bloods.
I am repeatedly on record as saying that if Wojo missed the NCAA this season he should be canned (but recognize he likely won't be because of COVID) so I'm not sure why you keep repeating this line.
That is a different topic. But I'll quickly point out that KenPom had us pegged for #49 based on our returning roster preseason. We ended at #53. I'd argue year 2 and 6 were much bigger failures.
Absolutely not. Marquette was already considered safely in the NCAAT. You make the dance, you are safe (without off the court issues).
Thank you for the detailed response. I'm not being facetious here, but let's say Wojo makes the tournament ten straight years and loses in the first round every time. Is his job safe as long as he gets there, regardless of his abysmal post season record?
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First of all, the genesis of this post is the comparison game. I don't think there's any debate that we were better positioned than Villanova to become a noveau blue blood. We were coming off S16/S16/E8. We had the #1 recruiting class in the conference in 2013 and were headed in a similar direction for 2014 with Ahmed Hill, Marial Shayok, and Sandy Cohen. We were picked first in the Big East and the highest ranked program in the league. We were investing more money in our program and had the best facilities in the league.
Compared to Villanova, we were in better position to become what Villanova has become than they were. On paper, we appeared to be in a better place. I don't think that's even a particularly close debate. Obviously we lost a coach and Jay Wright blossomed, but when this league started, we were in the catbird seat.
As far as when I would've fired him, see my post responding to TAMU. It isn't necessarily any one year but body of work. If there was one moment, I think it was after the Hausers left. We went from a top-10 ranking to a complete capitulation, then saw the roster for what should've been a top-5 team fall apart in a matter of days. The period from February 27, 2019 to April 16, 2019 when we lost 6/7 games, lost the Big East title, failed to reach the Big East title game, were upset in the NCAA Tournament first round, and lost two of our three most important players to transfer was a bottoming out to date.
Shortly after that would have been the moment. It is the moment when I first wrote Bill Scholl to express my concerns about the future of the program under Wojo. For the most part, all the trends we've seen since that moment has only reinforced what I began to believe at that time: Wojo is not the guy to lead our program.
First, I agree with much of what you have said in your posts regarding the program and the head coach. Apathy is never a good feeling.
One little thing about Jay Wright and Villanova...
Using the years you mentioned, 2013, 2014.
2014 Villanova was 29-5 (16-2) 1st
2015 Villanova was 33-3 (16-2) 1st
2016 Villanova was 35-5 (16-2) 1st
2017 Villanova was 32-4 (15-3) 1st
2018 Villanova was 36-4 (14-4) 2nd
Two of the above were National Title Teams.
Now, there were 3 seasons of more pedestrian results just before that. 2013, 2012, 2011, two of which were still NCAA teams.
2010 Villanova was 25-8 (13-5) 2nd
2009 Villanova was 30-8 (13-5) 4th
Villanova 2009 was a Final Four Team. Prior to that there were 2 other recent Sweet 16's and an Elite 8.
So, while I agree MU was headed down a much better path just before Buzz left than they are now, Villanova showed pretty high level success too. You used 2013 and 2014 for reference. As you can see, Villanova was pretty elite annually 2014-2018.
And, Jay Wright was putting up Buzz or better results prior to Buzz, as well as during the Buzz years you mentioned, and of course, after Buzz.
2009 Buzz was 25-10 (12-5) 5th
2010 Buzz was 22-12 (11-7) 5th
2011 Buzz was 22-15 (9-9) 9th
2012 Buzz was 27-8 ( 14-4) 2nd
2013 Buzz was 26-9 (14-4) 1st
2014 Buzz was 17-15 (9-9) 6th
Buzz had 2 Sweet 16's and an Elite 8. Buzz did very well at MU, but Villanova was still going to be what they are.
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Using the years you mentioned, 2013, 2014.
Now, there were 3 seasons of more pedestrian results just before that. 2013, 2012, 2011, two of which were still NCAA teams.
So, while I agree MU was headed down a much better path just before Buzz left than they are now, Villanova showed pretty high level success too. You used 2013 and 2014 for reference. As you can see, Villanova was pretty elite annually 2014-2018.
I trimmed a lot for relevance, but I used 2013 and 2014 to reference a very specific time. That specific time was November 2013, when the new Big East started.
As you mention, Villanova had pedestrian results the three years leading into that and there was debate from fans if Jay Wright was the right guy or if he should go (similar to the discussion we've been having for 3 years). So in November 2013, their program was, from the outside, not seen on the stable footing that was later revealed by the results since then.
Also in November 2013, we not only had the perceived top team in the Big East, we had the #1 freshman class in the league in 2013 and already had commitments from Sandy Cohen, Ahmed Hill, Marial Shayok, and Satchel Pierce for 2014.
We didn't know Buzz would lay an egg, that it would be his last year, that we would lose most of the 2013 and 2014 classes before their eligibility was exhausted, nor that Wojo would be the person tasked with taking the program largely into the new league. We didn't know what Villanova would do, and it is largely irrelevant to the world as it was in November 2013.
At the end of the day, we obviously didn't get where we all wish we could've gone, but the idea that Villanova's ascendancy to near-blue blood status was attainable for them and (as a couple on here insinuate) was never realistic for us flies in the face of where the respective programs stood when this new league kicked off. There's no reason the things that happened at Villanova couldn't have happened here. They also could've happened at Georgetown had things broken differently. Any of those three programs had the historic pedigree, the recruiting in place, and the coaching longevity to imagine that had things went right, they could be sitting where Villanova is today. I would argue that in order of most likely, it would've been 1-Marquette, 2-Georgetown, 3-Villanova.
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I trimmed a lot for relevance, but I used 2013 and 2014 to reference a very specific time. That specific time was November 2013, when the new Big East started.
As you mention, Villanova had pedestrian results the three years leading into that and there was debate from fans if Jay Wright was the right guy or if he should go (similar to the discussion we've been having for 3 years). So in November 2013, their program was, from the outside, not seen on the stable footing that was later revealed by the results since then.
Also in November 2013, we not only had the perceived top team in the Big East, we had the #1 freshman class in the league in 2013 and already had commitments from Sandy Cohen, Ahmed Hill, Marial Shayok, and Satchel Pierce for 2014.
We didn't know Buzz would lay an egg, that it would be his last year, that we would lose most of the 2013 and 2014 classes before their eligibility was exhausted, nor that Wojo would be the person tasked with taking the program largely into the new league. We didn't know what Villanova would do, and it is largely irrelevant to the world as it was in November 2013.
At the end of the day, we obviously didn't get where we all wish we could've gone, but the idea that Villanova's ascendancy to near-blue blood status was attainable for them and (as a couple on here insinuate) was never realistic for us flies in the face of where the respective programs stood when this new league kicked off. There's no reason the things that happened at Villanova couldn't have happened here. They also could've happened at Georgetown had things broken differently. Any of those three programs had the historic pedigree, the recruiting in place, and the coaching longevity to imagine that had things went right, they could be sitting where Villanova is today. I would argue that in order of most likely, it would've been 1-Marquette, 2-Georgetown, 3-Villanova.
Why are you not including what Jay Wright did prior to those 3 years (which were 2 NCAA's) ? They were an additional Final Four, two Sweet 16's, and an Elite 8. He's had multiple different stretches of high level success.
Wright's results prior to the stretch you picked were better than Buzz' total results at MU. Those seasons count too.
Buzz finished 9th in the league in 2011.
Buzz flopped his final season without Vander Blue. And, he left. I don't doubt he could have turned that back around quickly and repeated his prior MU success, or even improved upon it. It's certainly possible.
I don't see how MU would have replaced Villanova etc...If you want to say there is no reason why MU couldn't have built upon initial Buzz success to win at higher levels, I agree that was certainly possible. Or if you want to say MU over several more years, could have accomplished what Villanova has accomplished, sure, also possible. I wouldn't say definitely, etc...but I would certainly say Buzz could have improved MU league success and mixed in Sweet 16's and occasional deeper NCAA run.
If Wojo was named John Dough, and didn't come from Duke etc...I don't believe he'd still be MU's coach. He's getting a few extra seasons because of the combination of that and the Pandemic. It'd be a pretty good idea for Wojo to win an NCAA game this Spring of 2021. And if someone said, keep him another year because of the Pandemic, he would need even better results than that to stay.
So, Wojo still has a chance, but he's obviously almost run out of time. And here we are in year 7 and the play at times brings out apathy, indifference, and disinterest.
and so it goes...and so it goes.
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- Big East Wins: 7th: Villanova (87), Providence (70), Xavier (64), Seton Hall (60), Butler (60), and Creighton (55) are all ahead of us (51).
- Big East Tournament Wins: 5th (tied): Villanova (14), Xavier (7), Seton Hall (6), and Providence (5) are all ahead of us. We are tied with St. John's (4).
- NCAA Appearances: 6th (tied): Villanova (5), Butler (4), Providence (4), Seton Hall (4), and Xavier (4) all have at least twice our appearances (2). We are tied with St. John's and Creighton.
- NCAA Wins: 7th (tied) Villanova (15), Xavier (7), and Butler (5) lead the way, but Georgetown, Providence, and Seton Hall have also each notched a tourney win.
You can certainly have whatever opinion you want, but I think a little more context here is important. Since Wojo was hired at MU, 4 of the schools listed here have changed coaches (StJ twice). None of those coaches have a conference record above .500, and the only tourney win was when Jordan won a game his first year with all of Holtmann's players. Comparing Wojo's record against Mack's X teams is irrelevant going forward. Comparing it to Steele's X teams holds more merit, and so far (small sample size and too early to fully judge Steele), it's advantage Wojo. I've also noted other "indiscretions" that other programs have had since Wojo took over in another thread. It's certainly fair to want and expect more from Wojo, but I think objectively he would fall right in that log jam middle tier with 9 other coaches, below Wright and above Leitao. Whether or not that's acceptable for the fanbase and the brass in another discussion, but some of the statistics you posted are misleading.
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Why are you not including what Jay Wright did prior to those 3 years (which were 2 NCAA's) ? They were an additional Final Four, two Sweet 16's, and an Elite 8. He's had multiple different stretches of high level success.
Because the three years prior matched the three years I focused on for Buzz. Because that's a like for like comparison. And it's the period of time when Villanova fans were having the same "fire Jay" conversations we've been having about Wojo for the past 2-3 years.
I also mentioned this could've happened to Georgetown, but didn't dig back to JT3's Final Four either. As TAMU said, college basketball is a "what did you do for me lately" business, and when this league started, we were clearly atop that metric.
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Thank you for the detailed response. I'm not being facetious here, but let's say Wojo makes the tournament ten straight years and loses in the first round every time. Is his job safe as long as he gets there, regardless of his abysmal post season record?
I'd I have to go back and check but I'm pretty sure that's never happened. I think there is a theoretical point where most high-major programs would fire a coach after X straight tournament appearance with 0 wins, but I have no idea what that point is.
Not a perfect comparison but Mick Cronin went 7 years straight of making the tournament with no trips past the first weekend with 4 of those being first round exits despite usually having a "protected" seed. That got him a job at a blue blood.
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But I'm curious...who is that one coach? I feel like there are more than one in the past 20 years to get fired after a NCAA bid. Maybe some have off-court issues, but is it just Rick Barnes?
Barnes is the only one I know. A year or two ago I went back and found coaching carousel articles for every offseason going back to 2000-2001. The only non-blue blood firing I found after an NCAA appearance (without off the court issues) was Mr. Barnes.
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Because the three years prior matched the three years I focused on for Buzz. Because that's a like for like comparison. And it's the period of time when Villanova fans were having the same "fire Jay" conversations we've been having about Wojo for the past 2-3 years.
I also mentioned this could've happened to Georgetown, but didn't dig back to JT3's Final Four either. As TAMU said, college basketball is a "what did you do for me lately" business, and when this league started, we were clearly atop that metric.
I don't agree here.
Final Four, Elite 8, multiple Sweet 16's. "Fire Jay" after 2 out of 3 NCAA's? Nah. Not sure who you were speaking with at the time. And I've spent a little time around Villanova basketball.
Again, 1 of those 3 years you chose, Buzz finished 9th in the league.
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I don't agree here.
Final Four, Elite 8, multiple Sweet 16's. "Fire Jay" after 2 out of 3 NCAA's? Nah. Not sure who you were speaking with at the time. And I've spent a little time around Villanova basketball.
Again, 1 of those 3 years you chose, Buzz finished 9th in the league.
I used to be on the ESPN boards back then. The Nova posters hated Jay at that time and wanted him gone. they had crappy seeds if they made it, on top of him losing control of the locker room in the 2010 tournament for a huge embarrassing loss after a final four, they had a poor looking trajectory.
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Barnes is the only one I know. A year or two ago I went back and found coaching carousel articles for every offseason going back to 2000-2001. The only non-blue blood firing I found after an NCAA appearance (without off the court issues) was Mr. Barnes.
Steve Lavin (not sure about off court) comes to mind. Edited to add Chris Mullin too.
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Steve Lavin (not sure about off court) comes to mind. Edited to add Chris Mullin too.
Lavin and Mullin both resigned iirc
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I used to be on the ESPN boards back then. The Nova posters hated Jay at that time and wanted him gone. they had crappy seeds if they made it, on top of him losing control of the locker room in the 2010 tournament for a huge embarrassing loss after a final four, they had a poor looking trajectory.
Respectfully, this message board/the two Marquette message boards, are a teeny, tiny representation of MU basketball fandom compared to real life, let alone a few posters on an ESPN message board. The vast majority of people aren’t on message boards.
2010 Villanova 2 seed NCAA’s
2009 Villanova 3 seed NCAA’s
2006 Villanova 1 seed NCAA’s
2005 Villanova 5 seed NCAA’s
The others were 9 seed.
Final Four, Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16’s.
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Lavin and Mullin both “resigned” iirc
FIFY
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Respectfully, this message board/the two Marquette message boards, are a teeny, tiny representation of MU basketball fandom compared to real life, let alone a few posters on an ESPN message board. The vast majority of people aren’t on message boards.
2010 Villanova 2 seed NCAA’s
2009 Villanova 3 seed NCAA’s
2006 Villanova 1 seed NCAA’s
2005 Villanova 5 seed NCAA’s
The others were 9 seed.
Final Four, Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16’s.
Well with that attitude I can write off anything till you've asked a majority of people lol. The fact is ive offered an example where it was vocal, posters on Holylandofhoops can back that testament up as I've asked about it publicly there. And I'm sure if you head to VUHoops.com you'll find old threads. Also the ESPN boards were bigger than you're crediting it for, there were thousands and thousands of posters and they needed to pay Facebook to moderate it.
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FIFY
Mullin I get the quotes but not Lavin. They had no reason to protect his feelings or reputation.
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Mullin I get the quotes but not Lavin. They had no reason to protect his feelings or reputation.
“mutually agree to part ways”
https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/steve-lavin-st-john-mutally-agreed-part-article-1.2164697
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First of all, the genesis of this post is the comparison game. I don't think there's any debate that we were better positioned than Villanova to become a noveau blue blood. We were coming off S16/S16/E8. We had the #1 recruiting class in the conference in 2013 and were headed in a similar direction for 2014 with Ahmed Hill, Marial Shayok, and Sandy Cohen. We were picked first in the Big East and the highest ranked program in the league. We were investing more money in our program and had the best facilities in the league.
Compared to Villanova, we were in better position to become what Villanova has become than they were. On paper, we appeared to be in a better place. I don't think that's even a particularly close debate. Obviously we lost a coach and Jay Wright blossomed, but when this league started, we were in the catbird seat.
As far as when I would've fired him, see my post responding to TAMU. It isn't necessarily any one year but body of work. If there was one moment, I think it was after the Hausers left. We went from a top-10 ranking to a complete capitulation, then saw the roster for what should've been a top-5 team fall apart in a matter of days. The period from February 27, 2019 to April 16, 2019 when we lost 6/7 games, lost the Big East title, failed to reach the Big East title game, were upset in the NCAA Tournament first round, and lost two of our three most important players to transfer was a bottoming out to date.
Shortly after that would have been the moment. It is the moment when I first wrote Bill Scholl to express my concerns about the future of the program under Wojo. For the most part, all the trends we've seen since that moment has only reinforced what I began to believe at that time: Wojo is not the guy to lead our program.
Thanks for the response, brew.
First, I'm not going to get into it whether or not MU was ready to become a blue blood. You might be right. Or it might be a semantics thing. We'll never know.
As for the moment you selected as to when you would have fired Wojo ...
Did you say this publicly on Scoop at the time? Did you go on the record and say, "Wojo has to go. Now!"
If so, that was an awesome call ... but I don't remember it.
If not, it's pretty easy to use 20/20 hindsight now. I hope you don't interpret this as me calling you out or something. I'm just saying, as TAMU did, that it's a lot easier to sit here today and say, "He should have been fired at XYZ point."
Even though that situation sucked, and at the time I said it definitely made me worried about Wojo's ability to run a winning program long-term, the facts are the facts. All the bad stuff you cited ... those absolutely were damning facts against Wojo. But all the things TAMU and others have cited also are facts: Wojo was coming off his second NCAA tourney in 3 years, the team got into the top 10 that season, we finished second in the Big East, and we were a 5-seed. It would have been unprecedented (or pretty close to it) for any school, even a blue blood, to fire its coach under those circumstances.
But hey, if back then you said, "Fire the bum!" I'm more than just a little impressed now.
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“mutually agree to part ways”
https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/steve-lavin-st-john-mutally-agreed-part-article-1.2164697
Interesting
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MU82
I know you are asking Brew when Wojo could/should have been fired and I wanted to jump in on the conversation. I do not recall when I jumped off the Wojo train exactly but it definitely has not been recently. Several years ago I noted I did not think that Wojo was a gifted enough game coach to win without having real talent on the court. Some coaches can win with any kids because they built a system that works and I felt that was lacking.
I remember TAMU noting that Wojo was running the Duke offense and I looked up the Duke offense on the internet. I remember thinking that offense must need to be run by 4 and 5 star players or Wojo did not learn the system very well during his nearly two decades in the program. I have said countless times on here but Wojo has looked like he was in over his head in this position. Sadly, I still feel the same way.
Hope all is well in NC.
Agree that Wojo has been a disappointment.
Things here are going as well as can be expected during this COVID-19 era that sucks for everybody. Hope you and yours are staying healthy and sane.
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Well with that attitude I can write off anything till you've asked a majority of people lol. The fact is ive offered an example where it was vocal, posters on Holylandofhoops can back that testament up as I've asked about it publicly there. And I'm sure if you head to VUHoops.com you'll find old threads. Also the ESPN boards were bigger than you're crediting it for, there were thousands and thousands of posters and they needed to pay Facebook to moderate it.
Message boards are both inherently small sample size and, skew negative venting.
Jay Wright went a couple of seasons getting 9 seeds in the NCAA’s instead of the previous 2,3,1,5 seeds. .....while Buzz was bookending his four ending seasons at MU, by getting an 11 seed and missing the NCAA’s. And we all of course remember Buzz’ time as successful. (Buzz had a top 5 NCAA seed twice at Marquette.)
Then of course while overlapping the end of Buzz, Villanova went 2,1,2,1,1 NCAA seeds. (This is in addition to the previously mentioned 2,3,1,5 on the other prior end of Buzz.)
Wojo has had a 5 seed and a 10 seed NCAA in 6 seasons.
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Message boards are both inherently small sample size and, skew negative venting.
Jay Wright went a couple of seasons getting 9 seeds in the NCAA’s instead of the previous 2,3,1,5 seeds. .....while Buzz was bookending his four ending seasons at MU, by getting an 11 seed and missing the NCAA’s. And we all of course remember Buzz’ time as successful. (Buzz had a top 5 NCAA seed twice at Marquette.)
Then of course while overlapping the end of Buzz, Villanova went 2,1,2,1,1 NCAA seeds. (This is in addition to the previously mentioned 2,3,1,5 on the other prior end of Buzz.)
Wojo has had a 5 seed and a 10 seed NCAA in 6 seasons.
I only popped in to back up brews claims about Nova fans advocating for firing Jay I don't know when you're repeating Wikipedia information on VUBB to me or comparing him to Buzz or Wojo. You know I didn't bring them up right?
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So apparently, Nova fans thought Wright was in over his head, couldn't win big there, and had to go if the program was going to be anything more than mediocre.
I guess he proved VUScoop wrong.
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I only popped in to back up brews claims about Nova fans advocating for firing Jay I don't know when you're repeating Wikipedia information on VUBB to me or comparing him to Buzz or Wojo. You know I didn't bring them up right?
You said Villanova had poor NCAA seeds if they made the tourney. And you said they had a poor trajectory.
They had seeds of 2,3,1,5.
They had a couple of 9 seed seasons.
Then they had seeds of 2,1,2,1,1.
I don’t see the crappy seeds/poor trajectory as anything other than a reach. Not surprisingly, neither did Villanova.
At the same time MU had a celebrated coach that had an 11 seed and missed NCAA’s that surrounded two top 5 seeded teams.
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I think in addition to the expectations of our fanbase, which as Sultan noted aren't particularly unrealistic considering where we were at when Wojo was hired, is the comparison game. When this league was formed, we were perceived both internally and externally as one of, if not the, top programs in the league. But instead of challenging for titles, we've had one top-2 finish and haven't won more than one BET game in any given year nor beaten any team better than a 7-seed in the BET.
Meanwhile, Villanova has become the new blue blood we all wish we could've become (and were positioned to become when the league formed). Programs we have perennially viewed as lesser than us, like Seton Hall, Providence, Creighton, and Xavier have all found reasons to hang banners while we have nothing tangible to show for the past 7 years beyond scoring records.
Here's where we rank since Wojo took over in a few categories that fans would seem to get excited about, and remember we were supposed to be the team to beat in the New Big East:
- Big East Wins: 7th: Villanova (87), Providence (70), Xavier (64), Seton Hall (60), Butler (60), and Creighton (55) are all ahead of us (51).
- Big East Tournament Wins: 5th (tied): Villanova (14), Xavier (7), Seton Hall (6), and Providence (5) are all ahead of us. We are tied with St. John's (4).
- NCAA Appearances: 6th (tied): Villanova (5), Butler (4), Providence (4), Seton Hall (4), and Xavier (4) all have at least twice our appearances (2). We are tied with St. John's and Creighton.
- NCAA Wins: 7th (tied) Villanova (15), Xavier (7), and Butler (5) lead the way, but Georgetown, Providence, and Seton Hall have also each notched a tourney win.
What does this mean? I would say we are the (at best) 6th best program since Wojo took over. Villanova, Xavier, Providence, and Seton Hall are all clearly better than we are, exceeding our efforts in every one of the above categories. Butler beats us in 3/4 categories. I'd say we are on par with Creighton, though their Big East title last year probably gives them a slight edge.
I just don't understand how by any measure we have met expectations, or come close to that since Wojo's hire. How could anyone be satisfied with us perennially being a bottom half Big East team?
Agreed. All confidence will be lost if this team does not perform in the BET and NCAA this year from my perspective. I have no more long term (wait for recruits to come) goals. Those have passed. I have had patience. Wojo needs to start exceeding expectations this season and that expectation for me is the NCAA and a tournament win. If he doesn’t, he’s lost me and I’m a pretty big Projo. I really believe he has enough talent on this team to win. The conference is down. Now or never. I know they won’t fire him no matter what happens but my apathy will grow.
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Agreed. All confidence will be lost if this team does not perform in the BET and NCAA this year from my perspective. I have no more long term (wait for recruits to come) goals. Those have passed. I have had patience. Wojo needs to start exceeding expectations this season and that expectation for me is the NCAA and a tournament win. If he doesn’t, he’s lost me and I’m a pretty big Projo. I really believe he has enough talent on this team to win. The conference is down. Now or never. I know they won’t fire him no matter what happens but my apathy will grow.
This is more or less where I am, and I have said similar numerous times since the end of last season.
The only difference is that I probably wouldn't become truly apathetic unless there really was absolutely no hope -- in other words, we turn into something like Wisconsin before Dick Bennett got there.
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So you fire Wojo, that’s fine, but who are you bringing in to replace him? Secondly, you guys all blame Wojo, isn’t MU paying 4 other coaches as well? Does Rob Judson bring anything to the table? Or is Wojo such a control freak they bring nothing to the table? Al had Hank, does it not work that way any more?
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So you fire Wojo, that’s fine, but who are you bringing in to replace him? Secondly, you guys all blame Wojo, isn’t MU paying 4 other coaches as well? Does Rob Judson bring anything to the table? Or is Wojo such a control freak they bring nothing to the table? Al had Hank, does it not work that way any more?
It can work that way but it hasn’t so far. Wojo has control of the assistant coaches he hires. If he gets that wrong that is on him as well.
Anyway I truly hope we can all start to forget these conversations with a great season with some type successful end to it. Let’s start with being competitive today. Hell let’s win. WTF! Change the narrative!
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Did you say this publicly on Scoop at the time? Did you go on the record and say, "Wojo has to go. Now!"
Not in those words, but here's what I said:
Personally, that's not good enough. It may seem contradictory, but from my perspective, the need to meet next year's pre-Hauser news expectations went up this week, not down. If the Hausers come back and we are slightly better than last year, fringe top-25, 4-seed, win a game or two in the NCAAs, it's disappointing but you accept it and move on.
This situation is of Wojo's creation. There is no other way to view it. If the problem was Markus' usage, that was Wojo's system. If you think the problem was team chemistry, Wojo recruited these guys. If you think the problem was Hauser selfishness, again, Wojo brought them in. Ultimately, whatever led to this week's transfers lays at Wojo's feet because it was his job to assemble this team and keep the team member happy once they were on campus.
Wojo created the expectation of a top-10 team & Wojo was overseeing the program whose Twitter account spent the past two weeks retweeting every top-10 projection for Marquette, reinforcing to the fanbase that a top-10 team & all the accolades & results that accompany such a lofty position is what we should expect for next year. In that regard, nothing has changed & if anything, it only became more important that the team we put on the court deliver the results Wojo & the program have been pushing out to the fanbase since the 2018-19 season ended.
I agree there needs to be flexibility. If we finish 3rd in the AP Poll, win the Big East, make a BET title game, earn a 1-seed, and lose on a buzzer beater to an 8-seed, that shouldn't result in a firing. But if we're nowhere close to the expectations the program has been pushing for the past two weeks? Say being ranked 24th, 3rd in the league, losing in the second round as a 6-seed, and generally not being close to the team we were projected to be 5 days ago? Then the accountability should result in a firing.
As I said before, I wrote administration then and as I knew Marquette wasn't going to fire him for transfers, I stated that no expectations should change and that anything less than the top-10 expectations we had was fireable.
You said Villanova had poor NCAA seeds if they made the tourney. And you said they had a poor trajectory.
They had seeds of 2,3,1,5.
They had a couple of 9 seed seasons.
Then they had seeds of 2,1,2,1,1.
I don’t see the crappy seeds/poor trajectory as anything other than a reach. Not surprisingly, neither did Villanova.
At the same time MU had a celebrated coach that had an 11 seed and missed NCAA’s that surrounded two top 5 seeded teams.
It's interesing you are decrying the value of fans on message boards...on a message board.
And you're repeatedly moving the goal posts I set out to start the discussion. You have three years of Villanova to work with, the three years before the start of the new league. Not 6 years, not 10 years, and not the period after November 2013. I'm talking very specifically about the time directly leading into the formation of the league and the perceptions at the time the league was formed. That's it. That's the discussion point. Because when people were talking about the new league, that's what they were focused on and that's what the 2013-14 preseason projections were based on.
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So you fire Wojo, that’s fine, but who are you bringing in to replace him? Secondly, you guys all blame Wojo, isn’t MU paying 4 other coaches as well? Does Rob Judson bring anything to the table? Or is Wojo such a control freak they bring nothing to the table? Al had Hank, does it not work that way any more?
IMO his assistant coaching hires have been terrible. Yeah, he brought in Stan and Killings who are good recruiters but then what do the other guys do? We promoted a video coordinator and brought back our ex DOBO who have both shown they bring nothing to the table (expect they probably pass Wojo the ball during lunchtime scrimmages). I don’t know what hell Judson does and if his big claim to fame is he was Air Force’s (I think that’s the school) coach then that’s pretty weak. I’m guessing it was in the 90s but either way Air Force sucks so I’m not sure why we’d hire someone with that resume.
We need experienced coaches not yes men. I know this would never happen but I’d love if we brought in Jim Calhoun just to strictly coach. Let Wojo/his top assistant (killings for now) recruit and be the face of the program but let the old guy who can actually coach...coach
P.S I was a big fan of Brett Nelson’s player development but that seems to be long gone
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Not in those words, but here's what I said:
As I said before, I wrote administration then and as I knew Marquette wasn't going to fire him for transfers, I stated that no expectations should change and that anything less than the top-10 expectations we had was fireable.
It's interesing you are decrying the value of fans on message boards...on a message board.
And you're repeatedly moving the goal posts I set out to start the discussion. You have three years of Villanova to work with, the three years before the start of the new league. Not 6 years, not 10 years, and not the period after November 2013. I'm talking very specifically about the time directly leading into the formation of the league and the perceptions at the time the league was formed. That's it. That's the discussion point. Because when people were talking about the new league, that's what they were focused on and that's what the 2013-14 preseason projections were based on.
I didn't say anything about the value of a message board. What I said was, it is teeny tiny compared to a fan base. The vast majority of fans are not on message boards or social media. You see this often with sports media types on Twitter for example. They get tunnel vision because that's where they are much of the time. Twitter is very small compared to what's going on away from social media. We can surely agree on this, yes. That doesn't have anything to do with my presence on here for example. Yes, we all here on this message board, represent a small faction of the MU fan base.
I believe you are the one moving the goal posts. It's not okay to cherry pick a few years without comparing and contrasting what happened immediately prior to those few years.
You have repeatedly mentioned Jay Wright's success the past 7 years, without metioning the fact his success at Villanova prior to that was better than not Wojo, but better than Buzz' MU success too.
Another example here is your predicted success for MU in 2014. Well, we know in 2014, Villanova was:
29-5 (16-2) 1st place, NCAA 2 seed.
I included all of the years, the totality. Because they matter, and are taken into account. And since you are determined to cherry pick those few years, Nova's years immediately prior were better than what Buzz did at MU. I am happy to discuss how it took Jay Wright his 4th season at Nova to make the NCAA's and rebuild their program, It's the same amount of years as it tool Coach K at Duke for example.
Again, we all (at least many of us) believe Buzz was successful at MU, and, many of us would have liked for that to keep going. But your posts come across as if MU was going to be better than Villanova. That's quite a reach there. One's success isn't going to take away from the other. You later changed to say MU could have reached Nova's success, and, unlike some may do here, I actually agreed with you.
Had you talked more about school President, AD, things like that, there would likely have been more agreement.
But no I can't sit here and say MU was better positioned than Nova coming off of a 17-14 no NCAA season jist two seasons removed from a 9th place league finish.
MU had two 3 seeds in NCAA's under Buzz. Those were their only top 5 seeds under him. Again I most certainly believe Buzz could have bounced back after the lost Vander Blue season. It would have taken 1-2 years of not so great to get there. But sure he could have done that and got MU back into a better mix. I just don't see how that is relevant to Villanova.
And, again, I have agreed with your overall Wojo assessment. Unless MU makes the NCAA's and wins a game or two this season in it, I am just fine with MU moving on from him. But he is there now, and he has a good chance to get a win over Madison tonight, and to turn it around and save his job this season. His seat is hot. (yes he may get financial pandemic season for next year either way)
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You said Villanova had poor NCAA seeds if they made the tourney. And you said they had a poor trajectory.
They had seeds of 2,3,1,5.
They had a couple of 9 seed seasons.
Then they had seeds of 2,1,2,1,1.
I don’t see the crappy seeds/poor trajectory as anything other than a reach. Not surprisingly, neither did Villanova.
At the same time MU had a celebrated coach that had an 11 seed and missed NCAA’s that surrounded two top 5 seeded teams.
9, miss, 9.
To me 9's are crappy seeds, there's 16 seeds you're on the lower half so it's crappy. They missed the tournament (you have not listed that interestingly) so that make the "if they made the tournament" true. Then wrap that with an embarrassing very public humiliation as a 2 seed (seriously imagine how upset people are still about our 5 seed embarrassment but then imagine if it was as a 2). That's where the line's drawn. As Brew stated and what I popped in to reiterate is that circa 2013, VU fans were extremely frustrated. 2013-14 season was the new conference so it has zero to do with what the mental state of VUBB was in spring summer and fall of 2013.
Jay even went and did an interview when he righted the ship explaining that he stopped recruiting guys based on his system and more on their ranking. You can sit here and say they were a great three years all you want but does a coach who thinks that give a candid explanation who why they disappointed so much? I agree with your overall point that VU 02-13 was better than our 02-13. But that's not what I popped in to say, merely that VU fans were upset and frustrated.
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9, miss, 9.
To me 9's are crappy seeds, there's 16 seeds you're on the lower half so it's crappy. They missed the tournament (you have not listed that interestingly) so that make the "if they made the tournament" true. Then wrap that with an embarrassing very public humiliation as a 2 seed (seriously imagine how upset people are still about our 5 seed embarrassment but then imagine if it was as a 2). That's where the line's drawn. As Brew stated and what I popped in to reiterate is that circa 2013, VU fans were extremely frustrated. 2013-14 season was the new conference so it has zero to do with what the mental state of VUBB was in spring summer and fall of 2013.
Jay even went and did an interview when he righted the ship explaining that he stopped recruiting guys based on his system and more on their ranking. You can sit here and say they were a great three years all you want but does a coach who thinks that give a candid explanation who why they disappointed so much? I agree with your overall point that VU 02-13 was better than our 02-13. But that's not what I popped in to say, merely that VU fans were upset and frustrated.
Again, we'll just have to move on as you refuse to acknowledge all of the great NCAA seeds, Final Four, Elite 8, Sweet 16's immediately prior to this period. As I previously said, their University did obviously. Those things matter with regard to job security, program projections, program evaluation for a coach. It isn't just about a couple of seasons over the course of his 20 seasons there, or even as Wright accomplished all of the above during his first decade there.
Coach K finished 5th in back to back seasons in ACC a few years ago. Bill Self lost in NCAA first round multiple times in a row a few years ago etc...Roy Williams had a losing record last year at UNC, and he didn't finish in ACC top 2 three years in a row at one point.
None of it compares to, or is relevant to Marquette with Buzz or Wojo.
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Would Diener have any interest in being head coach? That's an experiment I would have some newfound patience for.
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Would Diener have any interest in being head coach? That's an experiment I would have some newfound patience for.
Because it has worked out so well for guys like Drexler, Mullin, Ewing and Hardaway.
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Would Diener have any interest in being head coach? That's an experiment I would have some newfound patience for.
I mean...why? Because he's an alum? There are plenty of good candidates out there versus hiring someone just because we like him and was a good player.
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Again, we'll just have to move on as you refuse to acknowledge all of the great NCAA seeds, Final Four, Elite 8, Sweet 16's immediately prior to this period. As I previously said, their University did obviously. Those things matter with regard to job security, program projections, program evaluation for a coach. It isn't just about a couple of seasons over the course of his 20 seasons there, or even as Wright accomplished all of the above during his first decade there.
Coach K finished 5th in back to back seasons in ACC a few years ago. Bill Self lost in NCAA first round multiple times in a row a few years ago etc...Roy Williams had a losing record last year at UNC, and he didn't finish in ACC top 2 three years in a row at one point.
None of it compares to, or is relevant to Marquette with Buzz or Wojo.
Yeah you're right I completely refused to acknowledge all of his previous success when I said " I agree with your overall point that VU 02-13 was better than our 02-13. But that's not what I popped in to say, merely that VU fans were upset and frustrated.
"
Lmao this is comical.
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I didn't say anything about the value of a message board. What I said was, it is teeny tiny compared to a fan base. The vast majority of fans are not on message boards or social media. You see this often with sports media types on Twitter for example. They get tunnel vision because that's where they are much of the time. Twitter is very small compared to what's going on away from social media. We can surely agree on this, yes. That doesn't have anything to do with my presence on here for example. Yes, we all here on this message board, represent a small faction of the MU fan base.
Last year, going to games, taking shuttles with other Marquette fans, it was clear that the opinions expressed on this message board are even stronger among the general populace of Marquette fans. The difference between this board and the people paying money to sit in the stands is that in the stands, I'm one of the most vocal Wojo supporters, and I've been off that wagon for about a year. The program has support, the coach doesn't really seem to.
I believe you are the one moving the goal posts. It's not okay to cherry pick a few years without comparing and contrasting what happened immediately prior to those few years.
No, I set the goalposts by making the argument. You are trying to move the confines of the argument I made. And 3 years + the expectations set for a fourth are a full recruiting cycle, so not a small sample size.
You have repeatedly mentioned Jay Wright's success the past 7 years, without metioning the fact his success at Villanova prior to that was better than not Wojo, but better than Buzz' MU success too.
And his failures the three years prior to the new league had fans calling for his head. Which is the point of the discussion you ignore.
Another example here is your predicted success for MU in 2014. Well, we know in 2014, Villanova was:
29-5 (16-2) 1st place, NCAA 2 seed.
Results after the league started are irrelevant to a discussion of where the programs were situated before the league started. I don't know how that is difficult.
I included all of the years, the totality. Because they matter, and are taken into account. And since you are determined to cherry pick those few years, Nova's years immediately prior were better than what Buzz did at MU. I am happy to discuss how it took Jay Wright his 4th season at Nova to make the NCAA's and rebuild their program, It's the same amount of years as it tool Coach K at Duke for example.
You're arguing in circles with points that aren't part of the argument. When your only argument is to go outside the confines of the argument, it's not a strong argument. Coaches have gone to Final Fours and later been maligned by fans or fired for a lack of success. Barnes, Ollie, Hewitt, Davis, Brady.
Again, we all (at least many of us) believe Buzz was successful at MU, and, many of us would have liked for that to keep going. But your posts come across as if MU was going to be better than Villanova. That's quite a reach there. One's success isn't going to take away from the other. You later changed to say MU could have reached Nova's success, and, unlike some may do here, I actually agreed with you.
My argument is and has been that we were better positioned than anyone else in the Big East to ascend to that next level. Honestly, at the time, I didn't think any of the NBE would get there. But in terms of recent success, incoming recruits, & expectations, we were at the top of the heap as of November 2013.
Had you talked more about school President, AD, things like that, there would likely have been more agreement.
But no I can't sit here and say MU was better positioned than Nova coming off of a 17-14 no NCAA season jist two seasons removed from a 9th place league finish.
November 2013. Neither team was coming off 17-14, no NCAA. Marquette was picked first in the Big East, Georgetown second.
MU had two 3 seeds in NCAA's under Buzz. Those were their only top 5 seeds under him. Again I most certainly believe Buzz could have bounced back after the lost Vander Blue season. It would have taken 1-2 years of not so great to get there. But sure he could have done that and got MU back into a better mix. I just don't see how that is relevant to Villanova.
You keep using the 2014 results as evidence against 2013 expectations. That makes no sense.
And, again, I have agreed with your overall Wojo assessment. Unless MU makes the NCAA's and wins a game or two this season in it, I am just fine with MU moving on from him. But he is there now, and he has a good chance to get a win over Madison tonight, and to turn it around and save his job this season. His seat is hot. (yes he may get financial pandemic season for next year either way)
I expect Wojo to be here until the end of 2022 at the minimum. I disagree with that plan, but understand a change may not be financially viable.
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Would Diener have any interest in being head coach? That's an experiment I would have some newfound patience for.
From what I've heard, no. That's why he went back to playing. If it's an alum you want, Wardle's the best candidate. Unless someone can convince Doc.
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I mean...why? Because he's an alum? There are plenty of good candidates out there versus hiring someone just because we like him and was a good player.
I obviously understand there are significant differences, but wasn't he player-coach for the TBT team? I get it, I get it, NCAA basketball is a completely different game of chess. But, to me, it shows he knows how to earn the respect of his team. He does sit on Wojo's bench so he's been at least familiar with day-to-day operations for a few years. He's played PG internationally meaning he probably has experience with many different offensive and defensive schemes and has developed his own personal philosophy. I'm not saying he's the next Jay Wright, just that it's an experiment I'd try. I like Wardle too.
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I obviously understand there are significant differences, but wasn't he player-coach for the TBT team? I get it, I get it, NCAA basketball is a completely different game of chess. But, to me, it shows he knows how to earn the respect of his team. He does sit on Wojo's bench so he's been at least familiar with day-to-day operations for a few years. He's played PG internationally meaning he probably has experience with many different offensive and defensive schemes and has developed his own personal philosophy. I'm not saying he's the next Jay Wright, just that it's an experiment I'd try. I like Wardle too.
But he isn't really interested in coaching.
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Last year, going to games, taking shuttles with other Marquette fans, it was clear that the opinions expressed on this message board are even stronger among the general populace of Marquette fans. The difference between this board and the people paying money to sit in the stands is that in the stands, I'm one of the most vocal Wojo supporters, and I've been off that wagon for about a year. The program has support, the coach doesn't really seem to.
No, I set the goalposts by making the argument. You are trying to move the confines of the argument I made. And 3 years + the expectations set for a fourth are a full recruiting cycle, so not a small sample size.
And his failures the three years prior to the new league had fans calling for his head. Which is the point of the discussion you ignore.
Results after the league started are irrelevant to a discussion of where the programs were situated before the league started. I don't know how that is difficult.
You're arguing in circles with points that aren't part of the argument. When your only argument is to go outside the confines of the argument, it's not a strong argument. Coaches have gone to Final Fours and later been maligned by fans or fired for a lack of success. Barnes, Ollie, Hewitt, Davis, Brady.
My argument is and has been that we were better positioned than anyone else in the Big East to ascend to that next level. Honestly, at the time, I didn't think any of the NBE would get there. But in terms of recent success, incoming recruits, & expectations, we were at the top of the heap as of November 2013.
November 2013. Neither team was coming off 17-14, no NCAA. Marquette was picked first in the Big East, Georgetown second.
You keep using the 2014 results as evidence against 2013 expectations. That makes no sense.
I expect Wojo to be here until the end of 2022 at the minimum. I disagree with that plan, but understand a change may not be financially viable.
You keep mentioning 2013-2014 expectations. So I will keep mentioning the actual results of 2013-2014. Why? It's to show that Villanova had elite results that season, something you have ignored.
You also dismiss the entire first decade of Jay Wright's success at Villanova, including Final Four, Elite 8, Sweet 16's etc...as if a few year period of 9 seeds was all that mattered. I don't agree with you. Villanova also didn't agree with you.
You also have repeatedly discussed MU expectations 2013-2014...without of course mentioning that MU went 17-15 (9-9) no NCAA with Buzz against those expectations. But other times when expectations were less or regular season results were not so great for Buzz...as long as he had a good NCAA you count that. Picking here, not choosing that there.
Only expectations matter here, only results matter there etc...only these results not those results etc...
What I did was happily, objectively take the totality of the situations.
It's a bit odd to say MU was well positioned one year if they hadn't just finished 17-15 (9-9). Why not say the same for Villanova. Well Jay Wright was certainly well positioned the year they had a 9 seed etc...
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But he isn't really interested in coaching.
And that's fine. That was my original question.
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But he isn't really interested in coaching.
It appears to be true about our current coach too!
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Yeah you're right I completely refused to acknowledge all of his previous success when I said ""
Lmao this is comical.
I'm sure UNC's poor results last year didn't thrill UNC fans. Let's just forget all about Roy Williams' success there prior to that.
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I obviously understand there are significant differences, but wasn't he player-coach for the TBT team? I get it, I get it, NCAA basketball is a completely different game of chess. But, to me, it shows he knows how to earn the respect of his team. He does sit on Wojo's bench so he's been at least familiar with day-to-day operations for a few years. He's played PG internationally meaning he probably has experience with many different offensive and defensive schemes and has developed his own personal philosophy. I'm not saying he's the next Jay Wright, just that it's an experiment I'd try. I like Wardle too.
I like the enthusiasm, but Marquette has taken a huge step back under Wojo and cannot afford the potentially disastrous results an "experiment" hire might bring. The next guy MU hires needs to have experience running his own program at the college level. Some of the embers from the Crean and Buzz years are still burning, but one more bad hire and we risk going down to Wake Forest type depths.
By the time MU is ready to part ways with Wojo, Wardle might be ready. He's made his bones at the mid-major level and I wouldn't be opposed to him coaching here, which is shocking because I never thought I'd say that. But at least from a bench coaching standpoint, he'd be an upgrade from our current coach. My #1 choice would be Thad Matta, if he wants to get back in the game. I'd take either of those guys over Doc Rivers. He has zero experience coaching at the college level and has grown fat and happy in the NBA. I just can't picture him flying to bumblef*ck Minnesota on a Tuesday night to watch a game in a high school gym and kiss a$$ to a 17 year old and his parents.
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You keep mentioning 2013-2014 expectations. So I will keep mentioning the actual results of 2013-2014. Why? It's to show that Villanova had elite results that season, something you have ignored.
Yes, because we are talking about where the programs were positioned when the league started. You're making an intellectually dishonest argument.
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There have been many firings in recent college basketball memory where coaches have had success but simply did not meet expectations at said school. Firings are not as simple as having a losing season or having a scandal. Certain schools simply have higher expectations that the results that were being met.
Tubby Smith, Memphis (went 19-13 and 21-13 over two years, no NCAA Tournament appearances). Six of eight players transferred out of program in last year, in addition to declining ticket sales.
Ben Howland, UCLA (233-107 over 10 years, NCAA Runner-up, NCAA Final Four, 7 NCAA Appearances). Blown out by 11th seed, Minnesota, by 20 points in last year, which led to firing.
John Thompson III, Georgetown (278-151 over 13 years, NCAA Final Four, NCAA Sweet 16, 8 NCAA Appearances. Back-to-back losing seasons, and one NCAA appearance over final four seasons. Fired after a losing year.
Tommy Amaker, Michigan (108-84 over 6 years, zero NCAA Tournament appearances). Fired after a 22-win year.
Johnny Dawkins, Stanford (156-115 over 8 seasons, NCAA Sweet 16). Fired after a .500 year.
Mike Anderson, Arkansas (169-102 over 8 seasons, Three NCAA appearances). Fired after an 18-win year.
Tom Crean, Indiana (166-135 over 9 seasons, Four NCAA Appearances, Three NCAA Sweet 16s). Fired after an 18-win year. Taking away his first two years at IU (while leaving in the third, which was still not good), his overall record is 150-89.
To be clear, Marquette is not an Indiana or UCLA, nor is it a Stanford or Memphis. However, in terms of prestige and history, Marquette matches favorably with the likes of Michigan, Georgetown and Arkansas. Each of those schools made difficult coaching changes when it became clear that their respective programs was at risk of losing their status as a top-25, historically, program. When you go for a long stretch of not meeting or reaching the levels that the program is usually known for, the school has no choice but to make a decision like that. And, in regards to Georgetown and Arkansas, both of those coaches easily got further and attained higher success than the Wojo era has had. Michigan, under Amaker, was, too, simply not reaching the NCAAs and in danger of digging itself into a long-term hole (which led to them hiring Beilein).
I'm not sure how the rest of year goes, and I am confident Wojo is back next year, but there is definitely precedent for top-35 schools making tough coaching changes, without a losing season and/or scandal, that leads to a change.
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Yes, because we are talking about where the programs were positioned when the league started. You're making an intellectually dishonest argument.
Buzz was at MU only five seasons. In those five seasons, he was top 4 in the league twice. It's quite rose colored glasses leap you are making there. On the other hand, if Jay Wright had not accomplished a Final Four, Elite 8 Sweet 16's etc...and then had a few 9 NCAA seeds, perhaps there would be more to discuss there.
Wojo is in his 7th season at MU. He does not have the previous above mentioned success, and is therefore on the hot seat, deservedly so.
When Buzz went 17-15 (9-9) when some picked MU as a Final Four team had Vander stayed...even with no Vander, it wasn't a good season obviously. Buzz took some heat from some fans. Was his job in jeopardy based on that season alone? No. Buzz had won enough prior to that, and he was deserving of a chance to take a year or two to get back to that level. And as I said, I believe he could have done that. But that would have meant a couple of rebuilding years there.
Apparently Creighton was better positioned than MU in the New Big East because they finished 2nd to Villanova that first season while MU finished 6th.
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There have been many firings in recent college basketball memory where coaches have had success but simply did not meet expectations at said school. Firings are not as simple as having a losing season or having a scandal. Certain schools simply have higher expectations that the results that were being met.
Tubby Smith, Memphis (went 19-13 and 21-13 over two years, no NCAA Tournament appearances). Six of eight players transferred out of program in last year, in addition to declining ticket sales.
Ben Howland, UCLA (233-107 over 10 years, NCAA Runner-up, NCAA Final Four, 7 NCAA Appearances). Blown out by 11th seed, Minnesota, by 20 points in last year, which led to firing.
John Thompson III, Georgetown (278-151 over 13 years, NCAA Final Four, NCAA Sweet 16, 8 NCAA Appearances. Back-to-back losing seasons, and one NCAA appearance over final four seasons. Fired after a losing year.
Tommy Amaker, Michigan (108-84 over 6 years, zero NCAA Tournament appearances). Fired after a 22-win year.
Johnny Dawkins, Stanford (156-115 over 8 seasons, NCAA Sweet 16). Fired after a .500 year.
Mike Anderson, Arkansas (169-102 over 8 seasons, Three NCAA appearances). Fired after an 18-win year.
Tom Crean, Indiana (166-135 over 9 seasons, Four NCAA Appearances, Three NCAA Sweet 16s). Fired after an 18-win year. Taking away his first two years at IU (while leaving in the third, which was still not good), his overall record is 150-89.
I would suggest that only one of these worked out well in retrospect - Belein hired at Michigan.
The rest either flopped (UCLA, Stanford, Georgetown) or are too early to tell (the rest)
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I'm sure UNC's poor results last year didn't thrill UNC fans. Let's just forget all about Roy Williams' success there prior to that.
Cant admit you were wrong that I acknowledged his prior success?
Should Georgetown have fired JT3? He had a final four sweet 16, 3 BE Championships, a big East tournament championship, a couple years removed from a second place finish.
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The parameters are clear. You choose to ignore them because your argument holds no merit by staying within them.
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I like the enthusiasm, but Marquette has taken a huge step back under Wojo and cannot afford the potentially disastrous results an "experiment" hire might bring. The next guy MU hires needs to have experience running his own program at the college level. Some of the embers from the Crean and Buzz years are still burning, but one more bad hire and we risk going down to Wake Forest type depths.
By the time MU is ready to part ways with Wojo, Wardle might be ready. He's made his bones at the mid-major level and I wouldn't be opposed to him coaching here, which is shocking because I never thought I'd say that. But at least from a bench coaching standpoint, he'd be an upgrade from our current coach. My #1 choice would be Thad Matta, if he wants to get back in the game. I'd take either of those guys over Doc Rivers. He has zero experience coaching at the college level and has grown fat and happy in the NBA. I just can't picture him flying to bumblef*ck Minnesota on a Tuesday night to watch a game in a high school gym and kiss a$$ to a 17 year old and his parents.
i forgot about Matta. He had success at Ohio State. Not sure why he left...burn-out, maybe? I agree that getting a nba guy to drop down to college and chase HS kids in Hicktown ain’t happening. Hitting a home run on a college coach seems more difficult than on initial glance. Greg Gard has a top 5 team? Dang. Wojo of Duke pedigree can’t garner a ‘also receiving votes’ vote? Annual flameouts? I have no idea where MU turns...if MU even cares. All I know is getting the bend-over rubber glove tonight won’t be fun.
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i forgot about Matta. He had success at Ohio State. Not sure why he left...burn-out, maybe? I agree that getting a nba guy to drop down to college and chase HS kids in Hicktown ain’t happening. Hitting a home run on a college coach seems more difficult than on initial glance. Greg Gard has a top 5 team? Dang. Wojo of Duke pedigree can’t garner a ‘also receiving votes’ vote? Annual flameouts? I have no idea where MU turns...if MU even cares. All I know is getting the bend-over rubber glove tonight won’t be fun.
He had some health/back problems, which, IIRC, translated into a lack of vigor on the recruiting trail.
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The parameters are clear. You choose to ignore them because your argument holds no merit by staying within them.
What's clear is that in one particular season, you value pre-season predictions more than the actual results of that season. You say MU was well positioned because some predicted MU to do well that season. Obviously based on actual results of that season, MU was not positioned as well as 5 other teams in the league. I value results more than predictions, yes.
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I would suggest that only one of these worked out well in retrospect - Belein hired at Michigan.
The rest either flopped (UCLA, Stanford, Georgetown) or are too early to tell (the rest)
Beilein was a grand slam. Musselman appears to be a strong hire. Archie and Haase not so much. Hardaway and Ewing are both the same types of hires (former NBA players, alums, with no college coaching experience). UCLA is unique because Alford went to three Sweet 16s, but two .500 seasons and was fired. Cronin is a toss-up (although I struggle to see him doing better than Alford).
The point I would make is that the risk of making no move at all (complacency) is far greater than the risk of making the wrong move (taking chances to succeed). If a school is in year seven of a coaching tenure, then it knows the trajectory, the floor and the ceiling. With the program and school's resources, conference affiliation and history, it should not be settling for the inconsistency and lack of postseason success (or appearances).
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i forgot about Matta. He had success at Ohio State. Not sure why he left...burn-out, maybe? I agree that getting a nba guy to drop down to college and chase HS kids in Hicktown ain’t happening. Hitting a home run on a college coach seems more difficult than on initial glance. Greg Gard has a top 5 team? Dang. Wojo of Duke pedigree can’t garner a ‘also receiving votes’ vote? Annual flameouts? I have no idea where MU turns...if MU even cares. All I know is getting the bend-over rubber glove tonight won’t be fun.
Greg Gard can thank Bo Ryan for having the head job at UW. There is zero chance Barry Alvarez would've hired him if Ryan hadn't stepped down mid-season, which is probably why Ryan did it. It was the one nice thing Bo ever did. Alvarez and Ryan didn't like each other, and I think Barry probably resents Gard's success. He can't fire him now.
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He had some health/back problems, which, IIRC, translated into a lack of vigor on the recruiting trail.
Rumor was Wichita State reached out to Matta after firing Marshall. He was not interested. I think he also turned down Georgia before Crean got the call. I think he stays retired unless a big school comes calling and allows him to fill out his bench with top recruiters to do the rest.
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The odds on favorite would have to be Wardle. What he has done at Bradley has been amazing.
But this still feels...precarious. His temper has gotten him in trouble, and I think we would be winning a lot of games really ugly. But at this point I should probably just get off my high horse and just be satisfied with Ws, even if they're ugly.
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I always liked watching WSU play and therefore always admired Marshall (albeit from afar). I've heard he's kind of a dick and not worth hiring. Am I wrong?
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I always liked watching WSU play and therefore always admired Marshall (albeit from afar). I've heard he's kind of a dick and not worth hiring. Am I wrong?
I wouldn't go near him. Neither will MU.
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Beilein was a grand slam. Musselman appears to be a strong hire. Archie and Haase not so much. Hardaway and Ewing are both the same types of hires (former NBA players, alums, with no college coaching experience). UCLA is unique because Alford went to three Sweet 16s, but two .500 seasons and was fired. Cronin is a toss-up (although I struggle to see him doing better than Alford).
The point I would make is that the risk of making no move at all (complacency) is far greater than the risk of making the wrong move (taking chances to succeed). If a school is in year seven of a coaching tenure, then it knows the trajectory, the floor and the ceiling. With the program and school's resources, conference affiliation and history, it should not be settling for the inconsistency and lack of postseason success (or appearances).
Oh I agree. Even the disasters above weren't unmitigated disasters.
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I always liked watching WSU play and therefore always admired Marshall (albeit from afar). I've heard he's kind of a dick and not worth hiring. Am I wrong?
The only name I would like to see coaching would be Joe Chapman. Start fresh. Doing great things in the youth market here.
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Cant admit you were wrong that I acknowledged his prior success?
Should Georgetown have fired JT3? He had a final four sweet 16, 3 BE Championships, a big East tournament championship, a couple years removed from a second place finish.
You said you acknowledged something and then decided to dismiss it entirely.
JT III is apples to oranges.
His firing, warranted or not, can be debated separately. He had losing conference seasons 3 out of his final four seasons there, without NCAA appearances those years, and two were overall losing records. The Jay Wright discussion included 3 seasons, two of which were NCAA seasons. JT III also already had a previous 3 year stretch of 8,7,11th place league finishes, missing NCAA's and not winning an NCAA game in that stretch etc...He had one Final Four and one Sweet 16. He had several very good seasons, has worked a lot with USA basketball, and he was a finalist for the Vandy coaching position a few years back.
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The only name I would like to see coaching would be Joe Chapman. Start fresh. Doing great things in the youth market here.
That would be fun for the novelty and he’s done nice things with the youth program, but I wouldn’t want him as our next coach. At least Penny had five star players in his program and the NBA name recognition.
I think TJO would be my number one hope. I’m warming up to Wardle as he continues to have success. Like Fluffy, these last few years have made me value winning over style of play.
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The only name I would like to see coaching would be Joe Chapman. Start fresh. Doing great things in the youth market here.
To quote Ignatius J. Reilly, “Oh, my God.”
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What's clear is that in one particular season, you value pre-season predictions more than the actual results of that season. You say MU was well positioned because some predicted MU to do well that season. Obviously based on actual results of that season, MU was not positioned as well as 5 other teams in the league. I value results more than predictions, yes.
Because at the time we were talking about, that information was not available. FFS this is not a difficult concept. This is a thought exercise based on what was KNOWN at the time the league was refounded. If you can't engage the debate on those grounds, then your intellectual dishonesty is a waste of time.
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You said you acknowledged something and then decided to dismiss it entirely.
Jesus man how can you not get this. What did I dismiss? That Jay had success? I said he had success. College basketball is cyclical, success doesn't guarantee you a lifelong gig if you can't continue.
Here's the easiest way to write this for you
1. 2010- Jay had come off great NCAA success and had regular season success.
2. 2011 to 13- Jay embarrassingly flopped in 2010, followed it with a 9 seed, missing the NCAA, and another 9 seed.
3. As of October 2013, Nova fans were frustrated by the past three years and there was a contingent that wanted Jay gone.
---------- (this line represents where Brew and I are saying Nova fans wanted Jay gone bringing up anything after doesn't matter because it hasn't happened yet)
4. Nov 2013-April 2014 The new league started then and Jay immediately proved them wrong.
5. Marquette fell on its face despite lofty expectations.
You cannot say that Nova fans didn't want Jay gone in October 2013 because of 2014's results, as it hadn't happened yet. You can say those fans were proven wrong sure and they were.
You can say some fans didn't want Jay gone because he had all of that early success. Then Brew and I can say similarly that some fans did want Jay gone due to the last three years + ncaa flop.
The reason I bring up JT3 is to show you, eventually early success doesn't matter for the present. That happened from April to October 2013 when some Nova fans were calling for Jay's head or at least considering him on the hot seat. Those fans were wrong.
https://www.vuhoops.com/2013/3/3/4060200/enough-groundhog-day-fire-jay-wright
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Because at the time we were talking about, that information was not available. FFS this is not a difficult concept. This is a thought exercise based on what was KNOWN at the time the league was refounded. If you can't engage the debate on those grounds, then your intellectual dishonesty is a waste of time.
You have repeatedly mentioned MU's expectations for one particular season. What you don't do is take other seasons as well and go over their expectations vs results, better, same, or worse. It's just that one season.
And then you'll say it is because of the new league. Then I say we just so happen to have results of that season which would conclude perhaps expectations were not correct or accurate. Perhaps MU was not as well positioned as they thought. We can say that because we have the actual results. Since we have the actual results, one can reasonably conclude MU was not better positioned than Villanova.
There is nothing intellectually dishonest about it. Facts are facts. I can't change the facts.
Would you admit, in hindsight, MU was not better positioned than Villanova? You come across as if that is difficult thing for you to admit.
People forecast sports results and make sports predictions all the time every day, every week. I am admittedly not into that. I am more of a prepare your team as best you can, and see what happens, see what the results say.
For example, I had hoped and I had expected MU to be much better in 2013-2014 than the actual results. Was MU positioned well, or great or better than Villanova for example? Well, apparently not. You want to say MU was better positioned and it didn't happen. I say results say who was well positioned, or better positioned.
As you well know, many players, teams, coaches, over perform, under perform etc....I am certainly not being disingenuous. I also don't care much for specific recruiting ranking numbers. Sure there is general value, but I don't get caught up in the specific ranking numbers. I don't care much for sports talk radio or sports talk tv predictions, not my thing.
I get it. MU fans deservedly want to see a coach string together several years of high performance and achievement. It is something that has often seemed to escape MU for a long time.
Obviously you are frustrated with the program, and you are playing a what if game.....MU coming off of two strong seasons, heading into Buzz' last year at MU. What if Vander had stayed? What if MU had a better administration situation? How would the program have been different? We'll never know. Sure I wish MU could have kept it going. Sure I see Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, and Wes Matthews, and I wonder if/when will MU get another good 6'5 2/3 switchable. I can do those things. But none of that has anything to do with Villanova.
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That would be fun for the novelty and he’s done nice things with the youth program, but I wouldn’t want him as our next coach. At least Penny had five star players in his program and the NBA name recognition.
I think TJO would be my number one hope. I’m warming up to Wardle as he continues to have success. Like Fluffy, these last few years have made me value winning over style of play.
TJ is 0-4 this year with an opening loss to Montana State.
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Would Diener have any interest in being head coach? That's an experiment I would have some newfound patience for.
I think in today's black lives matter environment, I would hire Joe Chapman before I hired Diener.
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I think in today's black lives matter environment, I would hire Joe Chapman before I hired Diener.
Fair point.
In lieu of that choice, Mike Rhoades of VCU.
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The odds on favorite would have to be Wardle. What he has done at Bradley has been amazing.
But this still feels...precarious. His temper has gotten him in trouble, and I think we would be winning a lot of games really ugly. But at this point I should probably just get off my high horse and just be satisfied with Ws, even if they're ugly.
...and at least we know Wardle gives a sh&t😀
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I think in today's black lives matter environment, I would hire Joe Chapman before I hired Diener.
I wouldn't hire either of them, but if I had to choose I would hire Chapman because he has more coaching experience and would be better qualified for the job.
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There have been many firings in recent college basketball memory where coaches have had success but simply did not meet expectations at said school. Firings are not as simple as having a losing season or having a scandal. Certain schools simply have higher expectations that the results that were being met.
Tubby Smith, Memphis -Fired after missing the postseason in final season
Ben Howland, UCLA Blue blood, fired during off court scandal
John Thompson III, Georgetown Fired after missing the postseason in his final year
Tommy Amaker, Michigan Fired after missing the NCAAT in his final year
Johnny Dawkins, Stanford Fired after missing the postseason in his final year
Mike Anderson, Arkansas Fired after missing the NCAAT in his final year
Tom Crean, Indiana Fired after missing the NCAAT in his last season
I'm not sure how the rest of year goes, and I am confident Wojo is back next year, but there is definitely precedent for top-35 schools making tough coaching changes, without a losing season and/or scandal, that leads to a change.
The thing all of your examples have in common is that the schools waited for them to actually have a bad season on the court or scandal off of it before firing them. No one set the bar for a bad season as "a losing season." The bar for program like Marquette is making the NCAAT. I'd argue Year 2 is the only season that Marquette could have justified firing Wojo and even then most people (even scoopers) would have said that was too quick of a hook. You could argue Year 4 but given the context of Marquette being projected to have its top team under Wojo in Year 5 (which ended up being true), I don't think any other program would have made that call. Years 3, 5, and 6, Wojo was unfireable.
The argument isn't that more successful coaches than Wojo have been fired. The argument is that schools can't justify spending millions on firing a coach when the coach is coming off a good season. If COVID doesn't get in the way, Wojo will be fired the next time he has a bad season (assuming he doesn't have some significant success prior to that bad season).
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The odds on favorite would have to be Wardle. What he has done at Bradley has been amazing.
But this still feels...precarious. His temper has gotten him in trouble, and I think we would be winning a lot of games really ugly. But at this point I should probably just get off my high horse and just be satisfied with Ws, even if they're ugly.
As frustrating as the terrible offense was on Tuesday, I actually enjoyed watching our defense for the first time in years. I'd sign up for winning ugly with no hesitation.
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Not in those words
See, and that's where we're at. It's easy to sit here now and say Wojo should have been fired after Hausershima and everything else that happened between Feb. 27, 2019 and April 15, 2019.
But you didn't even come close to saying it then. You basically said Wojo was on the clock. You said you would still hold him to high standards the following season, as if the Hausers hadn't left. And even then, you were willing to allow for extenuating circumstances. You were critical of Wojo, and upset about his program, but you weren't calling for him to go. Indeed, your conclusion to that post -- Then the accountability should result in a firing -- was talking about firing him after the 2019-20 season if he failed again.
For better or worse, your viewpoint actually was quite similar to mine at the time, and TAMU's too. Several others, as well.
You're one of my fave Scoopers, brew, so I'm not trying to play "gotcha" here, just pointing out how different these things are when we look at them in real time as opposed to when we look at them in hindsight.
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The thing all of your examples have in common is that the schools waited for them to actually have a bad season on the court or scandal off of it before firing them. No one set the bar for a bad season as "a losing season." The bar for program like Marquette is making the NCAAT. I'd argue Year 2 is the only season that Marquette could have justified firing Wojo and even then most people (even scoopers) would have said that was too quick of a hook. You could argue Year 4 but given the context of Marquette being projected to have its top team under Wojo in Year 5 (which ended up being true), I don't think any other program would have made that call. Years 3, 5, and 6, Wojo was unfireable.
The argument isn't that more successful coaches than Wojo have been fired. The argument is that schools can't justify spending millions on firing a coach when the coach is coming off a good season. If COVID doesn't get in the way, Wojo will be fired the next time he has a bad season (assuming he doesn't have some significant success prior to that bad season).
All the coaches I listed (except Amaker) had postseason success at their respective schools. Wojo was/is already an outlier in that regard. Wojo is also unique (to my knowledge) where he finished back-to-back seasons five of six games and six of seven games. I don't think there are any other present high major coaches (that were ranked in the top-25) to have accomplished that feat.
The difficulty in finding a comparable to Wojo is that there really aren't many that have similar circumstance (experience, success, level of program). Regardless of what MU chooses to do, this season, next season, whenever, if it bases its decision to make a change on whether or not the coach is bad enough to warrant being fired, then the program is already headed down a difficult path. It's either a long-term fit or it isn't.
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So you fire Wojo, that’s fine, but who are you bringing in to replace him? Secondly, you guys all blame Wojo, isn’t MU paying 4 other coaches as well? Does Rob Judson bring anything to the table? Or is Wojo such a control freak they bring nothing to the table? Al had Hank, does it not work that way any more?
I don't accept your first sentence as a reason to keep Wojo. If I think I no longer want my current coach, I am not letting "fear that the next guy might suck too" convince me to keep a coach I no longer want.
And while I think Wojo probably could use at least one more experienced, talented assistant ...
1. That would largely be Wojo's choice, so him not having one is also on him.
2. It's always the head coach's responsibility. He gets credit for success, blame for failure.
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Far be it for me to interrupt the squabbling, but you all realize you've been arguing the same points over and over and over for the last year, and probably longer.
Does anyone believe you're going to change anyone else's mind?
Carry on.
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All the coaches I listed (except Amaker) had postseason success at their respective schools. Wojo was/is already an outlier in that regard. Wojo is also unique (to my knowledge) where he finished back-to-back seasons five of six games and six of seven games. I don't think there are any other present high major coaches (that were ranked in the top-25) to have accomplished that feat.
The difficulty in finding a comparable to Wojo is that there really aren't many that have similar circumstance (experience, success, level of program). Regardless of what MU chooses to do, this season, next season, whenever, if it bases its decision to make a change on whether or not the coach is bad enough to warrant being fired, then the program is already headed down a difficult path. It's either a long-term fit or it isn't.
Yes (well Tubby didn't either but that's not the point), but the schools still waited until a year where they didn't make the NCAAT (or in Howland's case had off the court issues) to fire them.
It's fine to be of the opinion that Wojo should have been fired already. Just recognize that you are of the opinion that Marquette should do something that only one other non-blue blood has done in the past 20+ years (and it worked out great for the one coach that was fired and terrible for the school that did the firing). Schools can't afford to spend millions to fire a coach every few years because they didn't like the manner in which the coach earned their NCAA at large berth.
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Yes (well Tubby didn't either but that's not the point), but the schools still waited until a year where they didn't make the NCAAT (or in Howland's case had off the court issues) to fire them.
It's fine to be of the opinion that Wojo should have been fired already. Just recognize that you are of the opinion that Marquette should do something that only one other non-blue blood has done in the past 20+ years (and it worked out great for the one coach that was fired and terrible for the school that did the firing). Schools can't afford to spend millions to fire a coach every few years because they didn't like the manner in which the coach earned their NCAA at large berth.
Who cares if only one non-blue blood has done it, or none, or a hundred? It’s like when Kevin Cash got burned after removing a brilliant Blake Snell from Game 6 of this year’s World Series; the analytics said take him out, but sometimes you have to go with your gut. One more tournament loss without a win and Wojo should be gone. It won’t happen because of the pandemic, so he’ll get another year regardless of the results.
When would the right time to fire Wojo have been? A first round exit last year. That would’ve been the right time, but the season got shut down.
Do you think Wojo can get it done here? Do you honestly think he’s earned two more years?
One more thing: Marquette wouldn’t be “spending millions every few years because we don’t like the manner the coach got their at large bid”. MU hasn’t fired a coach in over twenty years. They’ve fired two coaches in the last 40 years.
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Do you think Wojo can get it done here? Do you honestly think he’s earned two more years?
To your first question, I don't know but since the end of last season I am closer to the No than I am to Yes.
To your second question, he definitely earned this year. I don't know if he's earned next year or not, it depends on how this season goes.
One more thing: Marquette wouldn’t be “spending millions every few years because we don’t like the manner the coach got their at large bid”. MU hasn’t fired a coach in over twenty years. They’ve fired two coaches in the last 40 years.
I understand that, but that is what some are advocating for. Unless you think that their expectations for the next coach will be different than their expectations for Wojo.
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I'll give Wojo this one. This was a coaching win. Took advantage of the reffing by continually going downhill early. Good defensive gameplan, good job balancing Theo's fouls, and let Ford be the guy that was taking threes (that's who you take your chances with). Rode Lewis when he was clearly feeling it. Kept pushing inside all night long, both with the bigs & with Carton.
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Right on, Brew. See comments in Extend Wojo, or game thread. So pleased with this I can't keep my posts straight.