WOJO HAS TO GOJO

[Galway Eagle]

It's an interesting, if at times infuriating, conversation.

I happen to agree with TAMU's objective comment, concluding that few if any schools would have fired Wojo after any season so far. All manner of Scoopers are claiming now that they would have fired him in 2016 or 2017 or 2018 or 2019. But it's just not something the vast, vast, vast majority of schools do.

And for reasons already discussed, MU almost certainly isn't going to fire Wojo after this season, either, no matter how bad it might be (and I'm not ready to say it's gonna be bad yet).

Having acknowledged that, my next thought is: "If they don't fire him, what are we to do?"

Several Scoopers have said they have already all but given up on MU hoops. I guess that is one option.

I don't see me doing that. When they play, I'll watch every game ... and I'll be happy when we win and frustrated when we lose. When COVID-19 is wiped out 1 or 3 or 10 years from now, I'll still travel to attend a couple games a year if I can. I'm keep reading Scoop for recruiting news and other stuff. I'll criticize Wojo when I feel it's warranted (as I did after Tuesday's game, as I did several times last season, and as I did after Hausershima). And I'll try to be as realistic as I can be.

So I guess it's up to all y'all Scoopers with real power, connections and money. Start working behind the scenes to influence MU administrators. You're up!

I don't think anyone (or the vast majority of people) who are giving up won't be paying attention, hoping for more, and will completely stop paying attention. my personal example: I used to be shouting at the TV, driving up for games, would go to (or organize) MU game watching events. Now I'll still go to MU v UW, National MU day, and when the ND series returns but "L's" won't ruin the day. It'll be ok as we limp to a 4th-6th place finish and sit between an 8 seed NCAA & 2 seed NIT, I'll check the scores if it's a game I don't care about. I won't be buying jerseys and organizing or attending big events instead rather meeting with a couple buddies and watch the game casually.

Essentially this is a long worded way to say I think people "giving up on MUBB" means really giving up on expectations, emotional investment, and hope, not their fandom overall.

[jesmu84]

We can debate about the others, but there has been at least one shimmering golden opportunity - after the Murray State loss.  Given everything I saw that season, and then the actual tournament game itself, I think it would've made sense to press release it before his plane landed back in Milwaukee.  He went and shopped his name around immediately after this anyway, and we caved and granted an extension instead.  What a comedy of errors by Scholl and the admin.

Now for that exact reason, everyone is telling me to shut up and enjoy our Marquette basketball because this is what we got and we ain't paying a buy-out during COVID.  There shouldn't even be a buy-out to pay.  We should've let the clock expire or told Wojo he gets his extension when we get one of the following (Sweet Sixteen, BET title, Big East Regular season title, top 3 NCAAT seed).  If our coach wants to give up on recruiting because he doesn't have a perpetual four-year contract despite being paid millions for painfully underwhelming results or wants to shop himself out to Wake Forest and leak it publicly for that same reason, maybe he's just not a coach you want to have.

And the kicker is all of the above can stand independently before you even bring up Hausershima.

Source?

[5DollarPitcher]

Source?

Steve Wojo

[jesmu84]

Steve Wojo

Lol. So no source. Got it.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

He didn't shop himself to Wake Forest last spring.  Rumor is he reached out to Virginia Tech, or VT reached out to him, when Buzz left.

But the fact is that if you play D1 basketball at the highest level, you grant extensions.  But those extensions are meaningless if the buyout is manageable.  So all this talk about the extension is meaningless unless you know what the buy out is.  And we don't know that.  But this is the game you gotta play. 

And I'm sorry there was ZERO chance Wojo was going to get fired after Murray State.  NONE.  Get real people.  Honestly all of these people talking tough on message boards who have no idea how to manage a modern, D1 athletic program...

[esotericmindguy]

Honestly all of these people talking tough on message boards who have no idea how to manage a modern, D1 athletic program...

Neither does Wojo, that's the point of the thread. Not sure how much more evidence you need. His teams don't improve. By all accounts I read, he sounds like a genuine guy that parents and players respond to. That's great, he should be a lead recruiting assistant coach.

[ATL MU Warrior]

I don't think anyone (or the vast majority of people) who are giving up won't be paying attention, hoping for more, and will completely stop paying attention. my personal example: I used to be shouting at the TV, driving up for games, would go to (or organize) MU game watching events. Now I'll still go to MU v UW, National MU day, and when the ND series returns but "L's" won't ruin the day. It'll be ok as we limp to a 4th-6th place finish and sit between an 8 seed NCAA & 2 seed NIT, I'll check the scores if it's a game I don't care about. I won't be buying jerseys and organizing or attending big events instead rather meeting with a couple buddies and watch the game casually.

Essentially this is a long worded way to say I think people "giving up on MUBB" means really giving up on expectations, emotional investment, and hope, not their fandom overall.

This is exactly what happens as you age and discover that other things matter more than Marquette and MUBB. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Neither does Wojo, that's the point of the thread. Not sure how much more evidence you need. His teams don't improve. By all accounts I read, he sounds like a genuine guy that parents and players respond to. That's great, he should be a lead recruiting assistant coach.

I'm talking about the Athletic Department overall.  We have people saying he should have been fired in the Spring of 2019 after they lost to Murray State.  That's absurd.

[dad's couch]

Here are a list of coaches who have been at their programs for about the same time with similar, or worse results:

Andy Enfeld at USC
Wayne Tinkle at Oregon State
Richard Pitino at Minnesota
Fran McCaffrey at Iowa
Chris Collins at Northwestern
Brad Brownell at Clemson
Jim Christian at BC
Ed Cooley at PC

Willard - 8 seasons before his 1st
Drew - 7 seasons
Hamilton - 9 seasons
Leito just a year less but zero appearances
You could count Chambers at Penn State who took 9 seasons to make his first tournament (they were in last year) and he wasn't fired because of his record.

[5DollarPitcher]

Willard - 8 seasons before his 1st
Drew - 7 seasons
Hamilton - 9 seasons
Leito just a year less but zero appearances
You could count Chambers at Penn State who took 9 seasons to make his first tournament (they were in last year) and he wasn't fired because of his record.

Willard won the BET in his 6th year at Seton Hall, something I've repeatedly said would grant Wojo goodwill for no tourney wins.  Scott Drew took over a Baylor program that hadn't gone to the NCAAT since 1988.  Leonard Hamilton took over a program with one tourney appearance in the decade prior to his hiring.  You're proud to have Leitao and DePaul as our peer group?  Or Chambers and Penn State?

Context is everything.  Our program was left to Wojo with much more prestige and winning tradition than it has now.  The coaches you named above were forced to build tradition from scratch.  The more you argue that Wojo's results are acceptable because they put us in the same boat as DePaul, Penn State, and Baylor in the 00s, the more you play into the hands of mediocrity.

[MU82]

I don't think anyone (or the vast majority of people) who are giving up won't be paying attention, hoping for more, and will completely stop paying attention. my personal example: I used to be shouting at the TV, driving up for games, would go to (or organize) MU game watching events. Now I'll still go to MU v UW, National MU day, and when the ND series returns but "L's" won't ruin the day. It'll be ok as we limp to a 4th-6th place finish and sit between an 8 seed NCAA & 2 seed NIT, I'll check the scores if it's a game I don't care about. I won't be buying jerseys and organizing or attending big events instead rather meeting with a couple buddies and watch the game casually.

Essentially this is a long worded way to say I think people "giving up on MUBB" means really giving up on expectations, emotional investment, and hope, not their fandom overall.

I understand. Thanks for the response.

This is exactly what happens as you age and discover that other things matter more than Marquette and MUBB. 

Yep, for many this is certainly true.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Once the Hausers left, Wojo was no longer projected to have his best team in 2020.  It would’ve been interesting if the pandemic hadn’t shut down the tourney.  At a school with teeth, he’d have been coaching for his job in the 2020 tournament.  Although I suspect landing Garcia might’ve bought him another year regardless.

Mike Anderson was fired after making the NIT. The only year Wojo made the NIT was year 4. At the time, Year 5 was projected to be better than years 1-4. The Hausers didn't leave until after Year 5. Your analogies are getting mixed up.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The more you argue that Wojo's results are acceptable

This is what you don't seem to get. I don't think anyone is arguing that the results are acceptable. They are pointing out that they aren't fireable. There is a gap between the two that Wojo lives in. You need to actually have a season bad enough to justify firing a coach before you can fire a coach. Wojo has always just cleared that hurdle. Unless he improves, the first time he actually fails to clear that hurdle, he will be fired...or at least he would be in non-global pandemic times.

[Dr. Blackheart]

That's fine but I think those people are only looking at one side of the ball. Defense was very good and we dominated the glass. Offense was a sh*tshow. My observation in the past has been that it is easier for teams to get better on offense as the season goes on than it is for teams to get better on defense. We'll see if that holds true for us.

The rest of your post I agreed with.

Plus, Wojo has a had some of the top offenses in the country, even last season (12th) without the Brothers Grim where he had to scramble to fill their spots. MU has one bad game offensively where we can see some of the parts having value once roles are set. This is area where fans should have patience versus other areas.

[5DollarPitcher]

This is what you don't seem to get. I don't think anyone is arguing that the results are acceptable. They are pointing out that they aren't fireable.

If they are unacceptable they are fireable.  For an NCAA basketball coach.  Unacceptable results are not firable?  We MUST live with the mediocrity?

[LAZER]

Willard won the BET in his 6th year at Seton Hall, something I've repeatedly said would grant Wojo goodwill for no tourney wins.  Scott Drew took over a Baylor program that hadn't gone to the NCAAT since 1988.  Leonard Hamilton took over a program with one tourney appearance in the decade prior to his hiring.  You're proud to have Leitao and DePaul as our peer group?  Or Chambers and Penn State?

Context is everything.  Our program was left to Wojo with much more prestige and winning tradition than it has now.  The coaches you named above were forced to build tradition from scratch.  The more you argue that Wojo's results are acceptable because they put us in the same boat as DePaul, Penn State, and Baylor in the 00s, the more you play into the hands of mediocrity.

How many programs fire their coach after NCAA appearances in 3/4 years (this assumes they make it in last year)?

[Silent Verbal]

Mike Anderson was fired after making the NIT. The only year Wojo made the NIT was year 4. At the time, Year 5 was projected to be better than years 1-4. The Hausers didn't leave until after Year 5. Your analogies are getting mixed up.

I understand Mike Anderson was fired after making the NIT.  I merely used him as an example of a coach who had had recent success (more success than Wojo, actually) and got fired.  True, he wasn't coming off a 5 seed in the tournament, but he'd done fairly well at a school where basketball is, at best, second banana to football.  As TAMU Razorback would say, "No school in the SEC not named Florida would fire a coach who'd made three straight post seasons, including the NCAA tournament in two out of the last three seasons."

Wojo missing the NCAA tournament in Year 4 with a roster that included Sam, Howard, and Rowsey, three of the best 3-point shooters in the country (if not *the* best), was an absolute disgrace and Wojo's worst coaching job, but that's a different topic altogether.

Here's what I was saying, and I'm posing it as a question to you:  If MU had lost to Seton Hall in the Big East tournament last year (which they almost certainly would have), do you think Wojo would've been coaching for his job in the NCAA Tournament, assuming MU would've been selected?  My guess is Garcia's commitment bought him another year, but it would've been interesting.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I understand Mike Anderson was fired after making the NIT.  I merely used him as an example of a coach who had had recent success (more success than Wojo, actually) and got fired.  True, he wasn't coming off a 5 seed in the tournament, but he'd done fairly well at a school where basketball is, at best, second banana to football.  As TAMU Razorback would say, "No school in the SEC not named Florida would fire a coach who'd made three straight post seasons, including the NCAA tournament in two out of the last three seasons."

I don't think you have a good understanding of how important basketball is to Arkansas. 

[Eldon]

I understand Mike Anderson was fired after making the NIT.  I merely used him as an example of a coach who had had recent success (more success than Wojo, actually) and got fired.  True, he wasn't coming off a 5 seed in the tournament, but he'd done fairly well at a school where basketball is, at best, second banana to football.  As TAMU Razorback would say, "No school in the SEC not named Florida would fire a coach who'd made three straight post seasons, including the NCAA tournament in two out of the last three seasons."

Wojo missing the NCAA tournament in Year 4 with a roster that included Sam, Howard, and Rowsey, three of the best 3-point shooters in the country (if not *the* best), was an absolute disgrace and Wojo's worst coaching job, but that's a different topic altogether.

Here's what I was saying, and I'm posing it as a question to you:  If MU had lost to Seton Hall in the Big East tournament last year (which they almost certainly would have), do you think Wojo would've been coaching for his job in the NCAA Tournament, assuming MU would've been selected?  My guess is Garcia's commitment bought him another year, but it would've been interesting.

It bought him two.

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=59473.msg1179586#msg1179586

[brewcity77]

I think in addition to the expectations of our fanbase, which as Sultan noted aren't particularly unrealistic considering where we were at when Wojo was hired, is the comparison game. When this league was formed, we were perceived both internally and externally as one of, if not the, top programs in the league. But instead of challenging for titles, we've had one top-2 finish and haven't won more than one BET game in any given year nor beaten any team better than a 7-seed in the BET.

Meanwhile, Villanova has become the new blue blood we all wish we could've become (and were positioned to become when the league formed). Programs we have perennially viewed as lesser than us, like Seton Hall, Providence, Creighton, and Xavier have all found reasons to hang banners while we have nothing tangible to show for the past 7 years beyond scoring records.

Here's where we rank since Wojo took over in a few categories that fans would seem to get excited about, and remember we were supposed to be the team to beat in the New Big East:

• Big East Wins: 7th: Villanova (87), Providence (70), Xavier (64), Seton Hall (60), Butler (60), and Creighton (55) are all ahead of us (51).
  
• Big East Tournament Wins: 5th (tied): Villanova (14), Xavier (7), Seton Hall (6), and Providence (5) are all ahead of us. We are tied with St. John's (4).
  
• NCAA Appearances: 6th (tied): Villanova (5), Butler (4), Providence (4), Seton Hall (4), and Xavier (4) all have at least twice our appearances (2). We are tied with St. John's and Creighton.
  
• NCAA Wins: 7th (tied) Villanova (15), Xavier (7), and Butler (5) lead the way, but Georgetown, Providence, and Seton Hall have also each notched a tourney win.

What does this mean? I would say we are the (at best) 6th best program since Wojo took over. Villanova, Xavier, Providence, and Seton Hall are all clearly better than we are, exceeding our efforts in every one of the above categories. Butler beats us in 3/4 categories. I'd say we are on par with Creighton, though their Big East title last year probably gives them a slight edge.

I just don't understand how by any measure we have met expectations, or come close to that since Wojo's hire. How could anyone be satisfied with us perennially being a bottom half Big East team?

[Viper]

Willard won the BET in his 6th year at Seton Hall, something I've repeatedly said would grant Wojo goodwill for no tourney wins.  Scott Drew took over a Baylor program that hadn't gone to the NCAAT since 1988.  Leonard Hamilton took over a program with one tourney appearance in the decade prior to his hiring.  You're proud to have Leitao and DePaul as our peer group?  Or Chambers and Penn State?

Context is everything.  Our program was left to Wojo with much more prestige and winning tradition than it has now.  The coaches you named above were forced to build tradition from scratch.  The more you argue that Wojo's results are acceptable because they put us in the same boat as DePaul, Penn State, and Baylor in the 00s, the more you play into the hands of mediocrity.

well stated

[ATL MU Warrior]

I think in addition to the expectations of our fanbase, which as Sultan noted aren't particularly unrealistic considering where we were at when Wojo was hired, is the comparison game. When this league was formed, we were perceived both internally and externally as one of, if not the, top programs in the league. But instead of challenging for titles, we've had one top-2 finish and haven't won more than one BET game in any given year nor beaten any team better than a 7-seed in the BET.

Meanwhile, Villanova has become the new blue blood we all wish we could've become (and were positioned to become when the league formed). Programs we have perennially viewed as lesser than us, like Seton Hall, Providence, Creighton, and Xavier have all found reasons to hang banners while we have nothing tangible to show for the past 7 years beyond scoring records.

Here's where we rank since Wojo took over in a few categories that fans would seem to get excited about, and remember we were supposed to be the team to beat in the New Big East:

• Big East Wins: 7th: Villanova (87), Providence (70), Xavier (64), Seton Hall (60), Butler (60), and Creighton (55) are all ahead of us (51).
  
• Big East Tournament Wins: 5th (tied): Villanova (14), Xavier (7), Seton Hall (6), and Providence (5) are all ahead of us. We are tied with St. John's (4).
  
• NCAA Appearances: 6th (tied): Villanova (5), Butler (4), Providence (4), Seton Hall (4), and Xavier (4) all have at least twice our appearances (2). We are tied with St. John's and Creighton.
  
• NCAA Wins: 7th (tied) Villanova (15), Xavier (7), and Butler (5) lead the way, but Georgetown, Providence, and Seton Hall have also each notched a tourney win.

What does this mean? I would say we are the (at best) 6th best program since Wojo took over. Villanova, Xavier, Providence, and Seton Hall are all clearly better than we are, exceeding our efforts in every one of the above categories. Butler beats us in 3/4 categories. I'd say we are on par with Creighton, though their Big East title last year probably gives them a slight edge.

I just don't understand how by any measure we have met expectations, or come close to that since Wojo's hire. How could anyone be satisfied with us perennially being a bottom half Big East team?

We were not positioned to become a blue blood when this iteration of the Big East formed. 

[MDMU04]

This is what you don't seem to get. I don't think anyone is arguing that the results are acceptable. They are pointing out that they aren't fireable. There is a gap between the two that Wojo lives in. You need to actually have a season bad enough to justify firing a coach before you can fire a coach. Wojo has always just cleared that hurdle. Unless he improves, the first time he actually fails to clear that hurdle, he will be fired...or at least he would be in non-global pandemic times.

How many chances does one get to do just enough to not get fired before the pattern of doing just enough to not get fired becomes the issue?

[brewcity77]

We were not positioned to become a blue blood when this iteration of the Big East formed.

Neither was Villanova, yet here we are. We were certainly better positioned than Villanova was in November 2013.

[Silent Verbal]

I think in addition to the expectations of our fanbase, which as Sultan noted aren't particularly unrealistic considering where we were at when Wojo was hired, is the comparison game. When this league was formed, we were perceived both internally and externally as one of, if not the, top programs in the league. But instead of challenging for titles, we've had one top-2 finish and haven't won more than one BET game in any given year nor beaten any team better than a 7-seed in the BET.

Meanwhile, Villanova has become the new blue blood we all wish we could've become (and were positioned to become when the league formed). Programs we have perennially viewed as lesser than us, like Seton Hall, Providence, Creighton, and Xavier have all found reasons to hang banners while we have nothing tangible to show for the past 7 years beyond scoring records.

Here's where we rank since Wojo took over in a few categories that fans would seem to get excited about, and remember we were supposed to be the team to beat in the New Big East:

• Big East Wins: 7th: Villanova (87), Providence (70), Xavier (64), Seton Hall (60), Butler (60), and Creighton (55) are all ahead of us (51).
  
• Big East Tournament Wins: 5th (tied): Villanova (14), Xavier (7), Seton Hall (6), and Providence (5) are all ahead of us. We are tied with St. John's (4).
  
• NCAA Appearances: 6th (tied): Villanova (5), Butler (4), Providence (4), Seton Hall (4), and Xavier (4) all have at least twice our appearances (2). We are tied with St. John's and Creighton.
  
• NCAA Wins: 7th (tied) Villanova (15), Xavier (7), and Butler (5) lead the way, but Georgetown, Providence, and Seton Hall have also each notched a tourney win.

What does this mean? I would say we are the (at best) 6th best program since Wojo took over. Villanova, Xavier, Providence, and Seton Hall are all clearly better than we are, exceeding our efforts in every one of the above categories. Butler beats us in 3/4 categories. I'd say we are on par with Creighton, though their Big East title last year probably gives them a slight edge.

I just don't understand how by any measure we have met expectations, or come close to that since Wojo's hire. How could anyone be satisfied with us perennially being a bottom half Big East team?

This post should be pinned to the top of the board.