WOJO HAS TO GOJO

[MU24]

Nearly all casual fans I knew when I was an undergrad dont even watch MUBB anymore. Only the hardcore fans do, and even then its the same bemoaning that we have all been seeing last several years.
Its great to have a clean program. Its refreshing to see the quality student athletes represent the university. Its even better to win and to win consistently and I hope that can happen.

[mu_hilltopper]

I actually don't think our fanbase expects a lot.  I think Kevin O'Neill type success would make people happy.  Most MU fans would be fine with down years if they had confidence in the coach to get them back.  But under Wojo, "next year" never seems to come.

This, so much this.

We've seen this movie before, we know how it ends.

[Hards Alumni]

I actually don't think our fanbase expects a lot.  I think Kevin O'Neill type success would make people happy.  Most MU fans would be fine with down years if they had confidence in the coach to get them back.  But under Wojo, "next year" never seems to come.

Yup, that is what I'm sayin.

[4everwarriors]

Sew, a few yeers ago eye said, I've seen enough. Now y'all have ceen da lite two, hey?

[Silent Verbal]

But the reality is, other than the top 10 or so programs in the country, Wojo could have had the exact same results, and he would still be employed at any other program.

This is just false.  How many other P6 schools have a coach who’s been in his job as long as Wojo has without an NCAA win? 

[5DollarPitcher]

What golden opportunities are you referring to? Wojo has unquestionably preformed well enough every year not to get fired.

Fans may not like it, but there is a space between "good enough to inspire confidence" and "bad enough to fire." Unfortunately for us sorry louts, Wojo has set up camp in that space and past evidence suggests that he ain't moving in either direction.

I don't fault anyone who has seen enough of Wojo and has concluded that he will never get us to the next level. I'm closer to he won't get it done then he will at the moment. But the reality is, other than the top 10 or so programs in the country, Wojo could have had the exact same results, and he would still be employed at any other program.

And again, while I understand why people are pessimistic about the team moving forward...It was an 8 point loss in the third game of the season to a good (not great) high-major team. We have seen Wojo coached teams take much worse early season losses and then turn around to make the dance anyway. Let's not throw the season on the meat wagon quite yet.

We can debate about the others, but there has been at least one shimmering golden opportunity - after the Murray State loss.  Given everything I saw that season, and then the actual tournament game itself, I think it would've made sense to press release it before his plane landed back in Milwaukee.  He went and shopped his name around immediately after this anyway, and we caved and granted an extension instead.  What a comedy of errors by Scholl and the admin.

Now for that exact reason, everyone is telling me to shut up and enjoy our Marquette basketball because this is what we got and we ain't paying a buy-out during COVID.  There shouldn't even be a buy-out to pay.  We should've let the clock expire or told Wojo he gets his extension when we get one of the following (Sweet Sixteen, BET title, Big East Regular season title, top 3 NCAAT seed).  If our coach wants to give up on recruiting because he doesn't have a perpetual four-year contract despite being paid millions for painfully underwhelming results or wants to shop himself out to Wake Forest and leak it publicly for that same reason, maybe he's just not a coach you want to have.

And the kicker is all of the above can stand independently before you even bring up Hausershima.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

This is just false.  How many other P6 schools have a coach who’s been in his job as long as Wojo has without an NCAA win? 

Here are a list of coaches who have been at their programs for about the same time with similar, or worse results:

Andy Enfeld at USC
Wayne Tinkle at Oregon State
Richard Pitino at Minnesota
Fran McCaffrey at Iowa
Chris Collins at Northwestern
Brad Brownell at Clemson
Jim Christian at BC
Ed Cooley at PC

[Bad_Reporter]

Here are a list of coaches who have been at their programs for about the same time with similar, or worse results:

Andy Enfeld at USC
Wayne Tinkle at Oregon State
Richard Pitino at Minnesota
Fran McCaffrey at Iowa
Chris Collins at Northwestern
Brad Brownell at Clemson
Jim Christian at BC
Ed Cooley at PC

And I’d guess that none of the schools above spend a fraction of what Marquette does on hoops

[shoothoops]

I actually don't think our fanbase expects a lot.  I think Kevin O'Neill type success would make people happy.  Most MU fans would be fine with down years if they had confidence in the coach to get them back.  But under Wojo, "next year" never seems to come.

MU missed the NCAA's 6 straight years before O'Neill arrived. For the most part, O'Neill's teams got better each year he was at MU. And, he left a pretty good situation for the next coach's first few years.

O'Neill was a more typical, struggle the first few seasons with very young good recruits, but make the NCAA's and Sweet 16 when those players become upper classmen and keep it going. This is more typical at other
successful places. Build something in 3-4 years and keep it going.

I mention this because the expectation for O'Neill after the Sweet 16 was to keep it going, meaning, almost annual NCAA's and mix Sweet 16's every so often, compete for league titles etc...those would have been K.O.'s expectations, meaning after he took a few seasons to build something, maintain it and add incremental growth to it. I don't believe people would have been happy if K.O. missed the NCAA's a few seasons after the Sweet 16 and then build again, etc...a cycle of a few years winning and a few years not. Making the NCAA's almost annually was a new expectation. Mixing in an additional Sweet 16 every so many years would have been a new expectation. Going beyond that every long while would have been a new expectation etc...

K.O also coached at a time when the men's basketball team shared the Old Gym basement weight room with maybe a half dozen other Marquette teams at the same time etc....not exactly apples to apples.

That is different from Wojo. This is year 7. I'd say by year 5  at most, years 3-4 more typical, the expectation is that the program is an almost annual NCAA team that mixes in NCAA tourney wins and runs. Wojo hasn't established that yet at this point.

In the expectation thread, my expectation this year would be to make the NCAA's and win a game there. It's based less on this year's personnel, and more on year 7, taking into account year's one through six.

If Wojo's name was John Dough from xyz state U, would he still be MU's coach right now? Many don't like starting over because it inevitably means a few year struggle during the change process.

I'm going to include 2020 as an NCAA season for Wojo. So, that makes 3 NCAA's in 6 seasons. Zero NCAA wins in 6 seasons. Zero seasons with less than 10 losses.
2 out of 6 seasons with a winning conference record. 2 out of 6 seasons with a top 5 conference record. That's his record so far at MU. If anything, my expectations haven't been yet thus far. Therefore, my expectations are higher this year, not lower. Someone might say good luck with that. And yes my expectations may or may not get met this year. But I am certainly not going to lower my expectations. Make the NCAA's and win a game. (Because he hasn't won an NCAA game yet. Just one game) If those expectations are too high, why are we here?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

And I’d guess that none of the schools above spend a fraction of what Marquette does on hoops

In some of the cases sure.  But they spend enough.  Remember that I think the figures about what Marquette spends compared to others is not an apple to apple comparison.

By the way, I am not providing this list as some defense of Wojo.  I see a ton of coaching mediocrity on this list, and absolutely zero people I would want to replace Wojo.

[5DollarPitcher]

A fact to chew on: if Wojo coaches out the remainder of his contract, he will be the longest tenured coach in Marquette history since Al McGuire.

[Hards Alumni]

In some of the cases sure.  But they spend enough.  Remember that I think the figures about what Marquette spends compared to others is not an apple to apple comparison.

By the way, I am not providing this list as some defense of Wojo.  I see a ton of coaching mediocrity on this list, and absolutely zero people I would want to replace Wojo.

But you also see Fran McCaffery who has Iowa sitting awful pretty these days.

[Silent Verbal]

Here are a list of coaches who have been at their programs for about the same time with similar, or worse results:

Andy Enfeld at USC
Wayne Tinkle at Oregon State
Richard Pitino at Minnesota
Fran McCaffrey at Iowa
Chris Collins at Northwestern
Brad Brownell at Clemson
Jim Christian at BC
Ed Cooley at PC

Thank you for providing this list.  Lots of coaching mediocrity, and all of them mediocre (at best) bball programs.  Certainly not “any other program in the country outside the top 10” as some have suggested.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

We can debate about the others, but there has been at least one shimmering golden opportunity - after the Murray State loss.  Given everything I saw that season, and then the actual tournament game itself, I think it would've made sense to press release it before his plane landed back in Milwaukee.  He went and shopped his name around immediately after this anyway, and we caved and granted an extension instead.  What a comedy of errors by Scholl and the admin.

Now for that exact reason, everyone is telling me to shut up and enjoy our Marquette basketball because this is what we got and we ain't paying a buy-out during COVID.  There shouldn't even be a buy-out to pay.  We should've let the clock expire or told Wojo he gets his extension when we get one of the following (Sweet Sixteen, BET title, Big East Regular season title, top 3 NCAAT seed).  If our coach wants to give up on recruiting because he doesn't have a perpetual four-year contract despite being paid millions for painfully underwhelming results or wants to shop himself out to Wake Forest and leak it publicly for that same reason, maybe he's just not a coach you want to have.

And the kicker is all of the above can stand independently before you even bring up Hausershima.

Name me a coach who has been fired immediately after earning a 5-seed or better in the NCAA tournament without significant off the court issues.

If you can't do that, the rest of your post is just noise. No program, not even the blue bloods, would have fired Wojo after Year 5.

[mu_hilltopper]

Curious .. what do people think will be Wojo's next job?

I mean, there is zero chance he will retire at MU in 30 years.   So it's just a matter of time, whether that be 1-3-5-10 years, something.  It's not if, it's when.

Since we haven't seen any evidence to the contrary, MU's program will continue to under-achieve as a middling-BE team.    It's hard to fathom any top 50 team hiring Wojo for head coaching duties with that record.

At the moment .. I think Wojo's destiny is to go back to being an assistant somewhere.

Great, great.

[Hards Alumni]

Curious .. what do people think will be Wojo's next job?

I mean, there is zero chance he will retire at MU in 30 years.   So it's just a matter of time, whether that be 1-3-5-10 years, something.  It's not if, it's when.

Since we haven't seen any evidence to the contrary, MU's program will continue to under-achieve as a middling-BE team.    It's hard to fathom any top 50 team hiring Wojo for head coaching duties with that record.

At the moment .. I think Wojo's destiny is to go back to being an assistant somewhere.

Great, great.

Boston College.  And he will be given a lot of leeway. 

To add to this, Jim Christian's contract expires in '22.  Pretty convenient.

[shoothoops]

Here are a list of coaches who have been at their programs for about the same time with similar, or worse results:

Andy Enfeld at USC
Wayne Tinkle at Oregon State
Richard Pitino at Minnesota
Fran McCaffrey at Iowa
Chris Collins at Northwestern
Brad Brownell at Clemson
Jim Christian at BC
Ed Cooley at PC

It's an interesting list of schools. It isn't a list of schools with more recent success prior to their current coaches, and at some, not a lot of historical success either.

BC, Clemson, Minnesota, Providence, USC, have made the Sweet 16 twice (each) in the past 35 years. Iowa has done it 3 times in the past 35 years.

Oregon State has made the NCAA's once in the past 30 years.

Northwestern has made the NCAA's once in school history.

What does Marquette want to be? Does it want to be similar to the above schools? Better? Worse?

[Galway Eagle]

Curious .. what do people think will be Wojo's next job?

I mean, there is zero chance he will retire at MU in 30 years.   So it's just a matter of time, whether that be 1-3-5-10 years, something.  It's not if, it's when.

Since we haven't seen any evidence to the contrary, MU's program will continue to under-achieve as a middling-BE team.    It's hard to fathom any top 50 team hiring Wojo for head coaching duties with that record.

At the moment .. I think Wojo's destiny is to go back to being an assistant somewhere.

Great, great.

Duke obviously

But yeah BC or if Collins ever gets axed from Northwestern. He'd be great, no real expectations and keeping them average (which he can do) would exceed everything.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Thank you for providing this list.  Lots of coaching mediocrity, and all of them mediocre (at best) bball programs.  Certainly not “any other program in the country outside the top 10” as some have suggested.

How does that list disprove my statement?

Find me a coach from a similar or worse program to Marquette who was either:
A. Fired after missing the postseason in year 1
B. Fired after missing the postseason in year 1 and 2 (I can think of one example personally)
C. Fired after making the NCAA tournament after two years of missing the postseason
D. Fired after making the NIT immediately after making the NCAA tournament the year before who's projected to have his best team yet the following year
E. Fired after making the NCAA tournament as a high seed after making the NIT the year before and the NCAA the year before that
F. Fired after making NCAA tournament for a second year in a row

All without significant off the court issues. Personally, I can only think of an example for B.

There have been coaches who have performed better than Wojo who have been fired. That is 100% true. The thing you are missing is that those coaches actually had a bad season where the school could justify firing them. Wojo has always done just enough to not got fired. Please don't mistake that for an endorsement. That's about the definition of "damning with faint praise."

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

It wasn't that the loss happened, it was how inept and unprepared the team looked that has a lot of people rankled. 

That's fine but I think those people are only looking at one side of the ball. Defense was very good and we dominated the glass. Offense was a sh*tshow. My observation in the past has been that it is easier for teams to get better on offense as the season goes on than it is for teams to get better on defense. We'll see if that holds true for us.

The rest of your post I agreed with.

[Silent Verbal]

How does that list disprove my statement?

Find me a coach from a similar or worse program to Marquette who was either:
A. Fired after missing the postseason in year 1
B. Fired after missing the postseason in year 1 and 2 (I can think of one example personally)
C. Fired after making the NCAA tournament after two years of missing the postseason
D. Fired after making the NIT immediately after making the NCAA tournament the year before who's projected to have his best team yet the following year
E. Fired after making the NCAA tournament as a high seed after making the NIT the year before and the NCAA the year before that
F. Fired after making NCAA tournament for a second year in a row

All without significant off the court issues. Personally, I can only think of an example for B.

There have been coaches who have performed better than Wojo who have been fired. That is 100% true. The thing you are missing is that those coaches actually had a bad season where the school could justify firing them. Wojo has always done just enough to not got fired. Please don't mistake that for an endorsement. That's about the definition of "damning with faint praise."

I’m not the one who said they should’ve fired Wojo after year 5, however...

Mike Anderson at Arkansas: 8 seed in 2017 (with an NCAA win), 7 seed in 2018, NIT in 2019, fired.  If Wojo achieved that in a three year stretch at MU, you’d be singing holies and hosannas between slurps.  Or at the very least, you’d be posting similar things on Arkansas Scoop.

[Hards Alumni]

That's fine but I think those people are only looking at one side of the ball. Defense was very good and we dominated the glass. Offense was a sh*tshow. My observation in the past has been that it is easier for teams to get better on offense as the season goes on than it is for teams to get better on defense. We'll see if that holds true for us.

The rest of your post I agreed with.

Yeah, if we can improve on offense we could become a top 5 team in the BEAST.  We do seem to have a profound lack of confidence.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I’m not the one who said they should’ve fired Wojo after year 5, however...

Mike Anderson at Arkansas: 8 seed in 2017 (with an NCAA win), 7 seed in 2018, NIT in 2019, fired.  If Wojo achieved that in a three year stretch at MU, you’d be singing holies and hosannas between slurps.  Or at the very least, you’d be posting similar things on Arkansas Scoop.

Mike Anderson was not projected to have his best team in 2020. He was projected to miss the postseason. Key difference. It was also in his 8th year at Arkansas and 17th year as a head coach. I suspect that in a non-pandemic year, Wojo would get the heave ho if he made the NIT this season. So no, I wouldn't be posting similar things on Arkansas Scoop.

[Silent Verbal]

Mike Anderson was not projected to have his best team in 2020. He was projected to miss the postseason. Key difference. It was also in his 8th year at Arkansas and 17th year as a head coach. I suspect that in a non-pandemic year, Wojo would get the heave ho if he made the NIT this season. So no, I wouldn't be posting similar things on Arkansas Scoop.

Once the Hausers left, Wojo was no longer projected to have his best team in 2020.  It would’ve been interesting if the pandemic hadn’t shut down the tourney.  At a school with teeth, he’d have been coaching for his job in the 2020 tournament.  Although I suspect landing Garcia might’ve bought him another year regardless.

[MU82]

It's an interesting, if at times infuriating, conversation.

I happen to agree with TAMU's objective comment, concluding that few if any schools would have fired Wojo after any season so far. All manner of Scoopers are claiming now that they would have fired him in 2016 or 2017 or 2018 or 2019. But it's just not something the vast, vast, vast majority of schools do.

And for reasons already discussed, MU almost certainly isn't going to fire Wojo after this season, either, no matter how bad it might be (and I'm not ready to say it's gonna be bad yet).

Having acknowledged that, my next thought is: "If they don't fire him, what are we to do?"

Several Scoopers have said they have already all but given up on MU hoops. I guess that is one option.

I don't see me doing that. When they play, I'll watch every game ... and I'll be happy when we win and frustrated when we lose. When COVID-19 is wiped out 1 or 3 or 10 years from now, I'll still travel to attend a couple games a year if I can. I'm keep reading Scoop for recruiting news and other stuff. I'll criticize Wojo when I feel it's warranted (as I did after Tuesday's game, as I did several times last season, and as I did after Hausershima). And I'll try to be as realistic as I can be.

So I guess it's up to all y'all Scoopers with real power, connections and money. Start working behind the scenes to influence MU administrators. You're up!