General Big East Thread 20-21

[Badgerhater]

Going back to 2014, here is how Cooley's Providence teams have finished:

2014: 10-8 in league, 5-5 last 10 win BET to get an at-large 11-seed

2015: 11-7 in league, 5-5 last 10, bounced by Dayton as a 6-seed

2016: 10-8 in league, 5-5 last 10, earn a 9-seed and beat USC in Round of 64 before losing to UNC in Round of 32

2017: 10-8 in league, finish year winning 6 straight to save season but lose in BET opener to Creighton and 1st round of NCAA as 11-seed

2018: 10-8 in league, 5-5 last 10 (5-7 last 12) but make BET final playing 3 straight OT games including a loss in the final, bounced as 10 seed in NCAA opener

2019: 7-11 in league, finished 5-5 last 10

2020:: 14-6 in league, finished by winning 6 straight

I don't buy that his teams get better as the season moves along.  Even if we argue they do based on 2 years of success, it hasn't translated beyond the end of the regular season.

6 of last 7 years (including 2020) in the tournament and one sub-500 BE record.

Few tourney wins, but I would prefer conversations about a lack of tournament wins rather than about lack of tourney appearances.

[Mr. Nielsen]

Yep. Fine. I was thinking in how it was said because of the cancelled game versus Texas Tech was St. John's having a positive case on it's team. Meaning the reason as not Covid. Vanderbilt was out. St. John's wanted to save some money for a long flight and took the game in Connecticut versus BYU.

[Lennys Tap]

Going back to 2014, here is how Cooley's Providence teams have finished:

2014: 10-8 in league, 5-5 last 10 win BET to get an at-large 11-seed

2015: 11-7 in league, 5-5 last 10, bounced by Dayton as a 6-seed

2016: 10-8 in league, 5-5 last 10, earn a 9-seed and beat USC in Round of 64 before losing to UNC in Round of 32

2017: 10-8 in league, finish year winning 6 straight to save season but lose in BET opener to Creighton and 1st round of NCAA as 11-seed

2018: 10-8 in league, 5-5 last 10 (5-7 last 12) but make BET final playing 3 straight OT games including a loss in the final, bounced as 10 seed in NCAA opener

2019: 7-11 in league, finished 5-5 last 10

2020:: 14-6 in league, finished by winning 6 straight

I don't buy that his teams get better as the season moves along.  Even if we argue they do based on 2 years of success, it hasn't translated beyond the end of the regular season.

Rico

Using all the seasons you list, Cooley is 35-31 "early Big East", 37-25 "late".  By winning %, that's .530 early, .596 late. So solid improvement.

Using more recent data (last 4 years), he's 19-23 early, 22-10 late - by winning %, .452 early, .687 late. IOW, remarkable improvement.

In the last 4 years

[Uncle Rico]

Rico

Using all the seasons you list, Cooley is 35-31 "early Big East", 37-25 "late".  By winning %, that's .530 early, .596 late. So solid improvement.

Using more recent data (last 4 years), he's 19-23 early, 22-10 late - by winning %, .452 early, .687 late. IOW, remarkable improvement.

In the last 4 years

2 of those seasons include 6 game winning streaks to close the year.  The other 5, he was .500 to close the season.  We didn't get to see how last year ended but 2017 ended with two consecutive losses.  One in the BET and the other in the NCAA as a 10-seed. 

His offensive approach hasn't gotten better through the years, in fact, it's gotten worse.  They took the air out of the ball last year and it worked to their advantage.  Credit to him and his staff.

I'm not throwing out the two hot finishes but in the last 7 years but there's also ample evidence his teams sputtered to end the year as much as got better.  Maybe the better argument is, they often remained the same

[Billy Hoyle]

Johnnies up 52-40 at half after a slow start against BC. Posh Alexander is the real deal.

[BM1090]

Yeah, one of my favorite Scoopisms is reading posters who praise Cooley, but rip on Wojo (eg, Herman), when Ed is at best slightly better than Wojo.  About the same record with ONE tournament win.

Yep. Providence has finished worse than Marquette in Kenpom four years in a row. Marquette has finished top 35 three of those years. Providence's best finish is 40th.

[BM1090]

6 of last 7 years (including 2020) in the tournament and one sub-500 BE record.

Few tourney wins, but I would prefer conversations about a lack of tournament wins rather than about lack of tourney appearances.

So...Cooley has been there 9 years. 6 of the last 7 years they have made the tournament. Missed the NCAA in his first two seasons.

Is that all that different than Wojo who missed the tournament in his first two years and now has made it 3 of 4 (including 2020)?

Providence in the past 7 years has had seeds of 11, 6, 9, 11, 10, miss, 8 (projected). Marquette after Wojo's first 2 years has gone 10, miss, 5, 9 (projected). I don't see much difference unless Wojo drops off significantly.

[Lennys Tap]

Yeah, one of my favorite Scoopisms is reading posters who praise Cooley, but rip on Wojo (eg, Herman), when Ed is at best slightly better than Wojo.  About the same record with ONE tournament win.

They're very close if you don't add any context - history, budget, state of program prior to their arrivals, etc. Expectations are higher at N Carolina than at NC State, at Kansas than at Kansas St., etc. for a reason. Being as good (or almost as good) as an inferior program in your conference means that you're underachieving, your competitor is overachieving or a little of both.

[The Sultan]

They're very close if you don't add any context - history, budget, state of program prior to their arrivals, etc. Expectations are higher at N Carolina than at NC State, at Kansas than at Kansas St., etc. for a reason. Being as good (or almost as good) as an inferior program in your conference means that you're underachieving, your competitor is overachieving or a little of both.

As I said, NoJos will always find a reason to NoJo.  Fundamentally the programs aren't much different.

[Shooter McGavin]

As I said, NoJos will always find a reason to NoJo.  Fundamentally the programs aren't much different.

Even Projos recognize that it's time to step it up several notches.  Comparing ourselves to Providence is demoralizing.  Stating Cooley is unequivocally a better coach than Wojo is also not a lock depending on the stats you like to use. My hope is that in the next several years these comparisons will seem foolish.  Wojo needs to start this year though by making the tournament and winning at least one game.  Too much talent to not take advantage of it.  Give MU fans something to start rooting for you (Wojo).

[Pakuni]

They're very close if you don't add any context - history, budget, state of program prior to their arrivals, etc. Expectations are higher at N Carolina than at NC State, at Kansas than at Kansas St., etc. for a reason. Being as good (or almost as good) as an inferior program in your conference means that you're underachieving, your competitor is overachieving or a little of both.

How many games does "history" win exactly? Asking for friends named Temple and Western Kentucky.
And how does Providence's budget stack up to Marquette's? Can't be too far off, given that Cooley makes way more than Wojo.

[The Sultan]

Even Projos recognize that it's time to step it up several notches.  Comparing ourselves to Providence is demoralizing.  Stating Cooley is unequivocally a better coach than Wojo is also not a lock depending on the stats you like to use. My hope is that in the next several years these comparisons will seem foolish.  Wojo needs to start this year though by making the tournament and winning at least one game.  Too much talent to not take advantage of it.  Give MU fans something to start rooting for you (Wojo).

It's time for Wojo to step it up.  No doubt.  But by "stepping up" I mean differentiating yourself from the Ed Cooleys of the profession.

[Lennys Tap]

As I said, NoJos will always find a reason to NoJo.  Fundamentally the programs aren't much different.

If you think one has to be a nojo to point out that the bar at Marquette is and should be higher than the one at Providence I'm a bit flummoxed. Anyone who has ever followed college basketball knows that.

I'm not a nojo, but like you (at least until a recent epiphany?) the evidence makes me lean strongly that way. If indeed the Marquette program has fallen and is now basically Providence that would be the proverbial nail in the coffin.

[Badgerhater]

So...Cooley has been there 9 years. 6 of the last 7 years they have made the tournament. Missed the NCAA in his first two seasons.

Is that all that different than Wojo who missed the tournament in his first two years and now has made it 3 of 4 (including 2020)?

Providence in the past 7 years has had seeds of 11, 6, 9, 11, 10, miss, 8 (projected). Marquette after Wojo's first 2 years has gone 10, miss, 5, 9 (projected). I don't see much difference unless Wojo drops off significantly.

MU was 8-10 this year in conference with an All American.  I have always contended that sub-500 teams should not make the NCAA as an at large. 

If year 7 goes great then awesome!  But when Providence edges out MU for more then a year or two, then the program is dead in the water.

[The Sultan]

If you think one has to be a nojo to point out that the bar at Marquette is and should be higher than the one at Providence I'm a bit flummoxed. Anyone who has ever followed college basketball knows that.

I'm not a nojo, but like you (at least until a recent epiphany?) the evidence makes me lean strongly that way. If indeed the Marquette program has fallen and is now basically Providence that would be the proverbial nail in the coffin.

Why would two teams from the same conferences have fundamentally different bars?  Why should Providence be satisfied with Ed Cooley's performance? 

Anyway, my point is that Wojo and Cooley aren't really all that different.  If you swap them, the results would be similar.

[The Sultan]

MU was 8-10 this year in conference with an All American.  I have always contended that sub-500 teams should not make the NCAA as an at large. 

Good thing your arbitrary rules are just that.

[Badgerhater]

Why would two teams from the same conferences have fundamentally different bars?  Why should Providence be satisfied with Ed Cooley's performance? 

Anyway, my point is that Wojo and Cooley aren't really all that different.  If you swap them, the results would be similar.

Cooley achieving at Providence is more difficult then succeeding at MU.  Only Georgetown has underperformed program expectations more than MU in the new BE.

[The Sultan]

Cooley achieving at Providence is more difficult then succeeding at MU.

Why?  Does he have less scholarships?  Does he have to coach with one hand tied behind his back?

They are similarly resourced programs with similar exposure.  (And yes, Providence charters jets everywhere just like Marquette does.)  Neither of them are considered "elite" and don't generally get one and dones.  They are typical, good but not great, Power 6 programs.

[rocky_warrior]

Cooley achieving at Providence is more difficult then succeeding at MU.  Only Georgetown has underperformed program expectations more than MU in the new BE.

First - I agree Cooley and Wojo are roughly similar at this point in their careers (success wise).  But now the contention is that if you were to drop Cooley @ Marquette he would be more successful?    That's a big mental hurdle for me to get over.  Providence is a BE level program, spending BE level money, competing for BE level recruits.  Does MU have more history, yes.  But HS kids don't give many sh1ts to 1970s history.

[GooooMarquette]

Eastern Kentucky and Xavier headed to overtime after EKU hit a three with 0.3 left.

[Uncle Rico]

First - I agree Cooley and Wojo are roughly similar at this point in their careers (success wise).  But now the contention is that if you were to drop Cooley @ Marquette he would be more successful?    That's a big mental hurdle for me to get over.  Providence is a BE level program, spending BE level money, competing for BE level recruits.  Does MU have more history, yes.  But HS kids don't give many sh1ts to 1970s history.

Or 1997 or 2007. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

Here is we can all agree: Over the past four years, Wojo is 11-17 in toughly the last month of BE games (7 games per season), or 39%. He has been much better the first time through the conference than Cooley, but the 2nd time through, MU seems to struggle.

Where we might not agree is why? I think he becomes too much a slave to his Duke system and doesn't throw a ton of new wrinkles in on the round trip...plus, his core has been dinged up as he shortens his bench. I think the team depth gives him more this year in his tool kit and I have seen some new looks already.

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

SJU looking good today. Fun to watch also. X struggling but looks like they'll survive in OT against EKU.

[tower912]

X dodges an RPG, not just a bullet.

[We R Final Four]

Wow—that X press break was brutal.