K-12 Schools & COVID

[tower912]

Teacher shortage is here.    As predicted. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Not just cause of Covid, but a growing problem accelerated by Covid.

[tower912]

Agreed.    A problem decades in the making. 

[4everwarriors]

Great opportunity for aspiring young teachers who actually want to teach, aina?


#freerocket2022v2

#freeziggy2022

[Uncle Rico]

Great opportunity for aspiring young teachers who actually want to teach, aina?


#freerocket2022v2

#freeziggy2022

Great opportunity for communities and politicians to support teachers, aina?

[tower912]

Great opportunity for aspiring young teachers who actually want to teach, aina?


#freerocket2022v2

#freeziggy2022

Yup.   Work for just over minimum wage, get blame from all sides.

[JWags85]

Yup.   Work for just over minimum wage, get blame from all sides.

Are many teachers underpaid?  Probably. 

Is the bolded statement remotely true?  Not even close.  There is not a single state where the average starting teacher salary is within $10K of minimum wage, much less into your career.  Most are not even within $15K. 

Its possible to make points without being dramatic and absurdist.  Salaries being too low to attract proper talent against other careers or justify the headaches and blame/drama is the real salary issue.  Not that teachers are living on food stamps and subsidized housing.

[tower912]

Oklahoma, average starting salary is $38k.  For Head Start, as low as $21k.   So, I confess to engaging in hyperbole.    But not by as much as I wish.

[Skatastrophy]

Its possible to make points without being dramatic and absurdist. 

lol

[Pakuni]

Are many teachers underpaid?  Probably. 

Is the bolded statement remotely true?  Not even close.  There is not a single state where the average starting teacher salary is within $10K of minimum wage, much less into your career.  Most are not even within $15K. 

Its possible to make points without being dramatic and absurdist.  Salaries being too low to attract proper talent against other careers or justify the headaches and blame/drama is the real salary issue.  Not that teachers are living on food stamps and subsidized housing.

FWIW, there are a growing number of school districts - mostly in high-priced real estate markets or places where housing is scarce - that do, in fact, offer subsidized housing for teachers.

https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/new-from-nea/affordable-housing-teachers-its-table-now

[mu_hilltopper]

There's a school district in Door County that put out an email blast to families asking if anyone had spare bedrooms for (new) teachers who couldn't find housing in the area.

[JWags85]

FWIW, there are a growing number of school districts - mostly in high-priced real estate markets or places where housing is scarce - that do, in fact, offer subsidized housing for teachers.

https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/new-from-nea/affordable-housing-teachers-its-table-now

Interesting but seemingly very niche examples.  Silicon Valley and Aspen aren't exactly representative.  I think solutions in places like that, or somewhere like Door County or other high priced vacation destinations, need to be creative, and should be applauded, but aren't emblematic of a national issue to counter my original point.

[mu_hilltopper]

This story from 4 years ago has always stuck with me:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2019/01/29/what-industry-has-seen-pay-fall-below-average-most-states-public-schools/?noredirect=on

Roughly, 30 years ago, in half the states, teacher salaries were 10-20% higher than the average salary in the state.  By 2018, that dropped to 1 state.

Should be no surprise that there's teacher shortages across the country.

The article calls out Wisconsin, where teachers used to be paid 1.2x the average job.  Now it's .9x.  That's .. quite pathetic, and shows what happens when the state successfully kneecaps unions for public workers.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

This story from 4 years ago has always stuck with me:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2019/01/29/what-industry-has-seen-pay-fall-below-average-most-states-public-schools/?noredirect=on

Roughly, 30 years ago, in half the states, teacher salaries were 10-20% higher than the average salary in the state.  By 2018, that dropped to 1 state.

Should be no surprise that there's teacher shortages across the country.

The article calls out Wisconsin, where teachers used to be paid 1.2x the average job.  Now it's .9x.  That's .. quite pathetic, and shows what happens when the state successfully kneecaps unions for public workers.

We as a society has a great understanding of the cost of things, but not a great understanding of the value of things.  It's the equivalent of building a house with cheap materials and wondering why the roof leaks five years later.

Wisconsin's devaluing of a historically great public school system has been a tragedy.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

The profession has been attacked relentlessly since that POS Newt, if not before. The reason is pretty simple, all you have to do is ask who benefits from an uneducated populace.

[jesmu84]

The profession has been attacked relentlessly since that POS Newt, if not before. The reason is pretty simple, all you have to do is ask who benefits from an uneducated populace.

What would you expect for a group that's trying to groom the kids?

But, groomers or not, we should still give them guns

[noblewarrior]

We can always cut the amount of administrators.  For some reason, their numbers have had an exponential increase in the past couple of decades… while the number of teacher have only had a steady linear increase.  You want to talk about getting paid the big bucks in our educational system.  look no further than these administrators/bureaucrats.  Cut their numbers and send this money the teachers way.

[jesmu84]

We can always cut the amount of administrators.  For some reason, their numbers have had an exponential increase in the past couple of decades… while the number of teacher have only had a steady linear increase.  You want to talk about getting paid the big bucks in our educational system.  look no further than these administrators/bureaucrats.  Cut their numbers and send this money the teachers way.

Not the worst idea. Similar applies to hospital administration vs staff

[Jay Bee]

I find it reasonable to consider…

1) teaching isn’t a full year job for many. Can they not work another job during parts of the year? If so, is their teaching salary the right metric, or should it be adjusted?

2) There are still some highly favorable retirement provisions that some teachers benefit from. Doesn’t show up in the base salary, but is real

3) Tell me why public school teachers have on average a meaningfully higher base salary than private… and why don’t people break these down more often when talking about “teacher salaries”?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I find it reasonable to consider…

1) teaching isn’t a full year job for many. Can they not work another job during parts of the year? If so, is their teaching salary the right metric, or should it be adjusted?

2) There are still some highly favorable retirement provisions that some teachers benefit from. Doesn’t show up in the base salary, but is real

3) Tell me why public school teachers have on average a meaningfully higher base salary than private… and why don’t people break these down more often when talking about “teacher salaries”?

1.  Not sure that is relevant at all. Even if they do have second sources of income, that doesn't mean that they feel that teaching is worth the compensation.

2.  I think that is why people stick with teaching why they reach a certain age and/or tenure.  But my guess is retirement doesn't really much to anyone under the age of 40...or older.  Regardless, do we really want teachers who are continuing simply because of the "golden handcuffs" of a public pension?

3.  I have no idea.

[mu_hilltopper]

I find it reasonable to consider…

1) teaching isn’t a full year job for many. Can they not work another job during parts of the year? If so, is their teaching salary the right metric, or should it be adjusted?

2) There are still some highly favorable retirement provisions that some teachers benefit from. Doesn’t show up in the base salary, but is real

3) Tell me why public school teachers have on average a meaningfully higher base salary than private… and why don’t people break these down more often when talking about “teacher salaries”?

1. Mrs. Hilltopper is a 3rd grade teacher.   She's at work from 7:15am, quits around 5.   She eats lunch at her desk as she works, she has zero down time, zero social time.   At home, she works another 2, so 55 hours a week, easy.   Removing school breaks, that's 2035 hours packed into 37 weeks.

Incidentally, she has a masters and 16 years experience for a $66,000 salary, so around $32 an hour.  And that's about in the top quarter of compensation for the district.

She ain't getting a summer job.

2. As for pensions .. Looking at her pension payout, it's about $16,000 per year after age 65 (right now.)  She'll probably work another 7-10 years, so maybe that perks up to $25k a year, but that's an optimistic guess.  Hardly an easy street retirement.

3. I'm not sure where you'd get that teachers have a "meaningfully higher base salary than private."   Maybe you're comparing them to non-college degree workers?   Entry-level teacher salaries are in the low-40s.  After 10 years, teachers are in the high 50s.    Google tells me the average starting salary for a college grad is $55k.

No doubt, teachers do pay around 10% of health care premiums versus around 30% in the private sector.  Family premium, let's say is $25k, that's $5k in premiums teachers aren't paying.   Ok, bump the salaries by $5k.

Regardless .. K-12 Teachers .. are underpaid, full stop.  And no surprise, the supply of people willing to do the job is decreasing.

[Jay Bee]

Teachers taking a lot of time off is relevant because the data point was “the average salary is only $XX”. Well, they’re not working the entire year.
 
As for the 2,035 hours worked.. there are many of us who are salaried, yet can hardly imagine working that LITTLE in a year. There may be time management issues (I hardly believe every teacher has to work 55 hours a week in order to do their job), but the idea of ‘I don’t get a summer job because I work a lot during the school year’ seems like a decision that is fine to make, but lessens the argument of ‘I need more money’.
 
As for public vs. private – I probably didn’t type that clearly. I’m talking about teachers only – public school teachers on average make meaningfully more than private school teachers. Why? I think there are a few things at play… but the red tape/over-bearing requirements of some public school systems are probably a reason. Unions won’t love it, but especially now with the need for educators, why not open things up a bit to highly smart people with alternative training to help public school kids?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Teachers taking a lot of time off is relevant because the data point was “the average salary is only $XX”. Well, they’re not working the entire year.

But they have to work more than 40 hours a week during the times that they are working. They also are only allowed 3-5 PTO days during the time that they are working so it balances out.

As for the 2,035 hours worked.. there are many of us who are salaried, yet can hardly imagine working that LITTLE in a year.

As you pointed out that's in a year, not 9 months. Also it is your choice if you want to work more than you are paid for. For teachers, the expectation is that they work for more than they are paid for. You also make significantly more than a teacher does.

There may be time management issues (I hardly believe every teacher has to work 55 hours a week in order to do their job),

Have you done the math?

School day is what? 7 hours? As already discussed, teachers are expected to work through lunch and don't get breaks the way most salaried positions do so that's 7 hours x 5 school days = 35 hours a week.

Let's conservatively estimate that a teacher needs 30 minutes in the morning to prep and stays 30 minutes after final bell to wrap things up for the day so that's 1 hour x 5 school days = 5 + 35 = 40 hours.

Now let's conservatively estimate that a teacher needs an hour and a half a night to lesson plan/grade (most teachers I know take at least 2 hours) so that 1.5 hours x 5 school days = 7.5+40 = 47.5 hours

So you'd only need an additional 7.5 hours of tutoring, after school programs, supervising extra curriculars, managing pick up or drop off, meeting with parents, and other duties as assigned to get to 55 hours a week. And that's with conservative estimates on time needed for prep, lesson planning, and grading. I think it's fair to estimate that most teachers are somewhere in the 45-60 hours a week range.

why not open things up a bit to highly smart people with alternative training to help public school kids?

What highly smart people with alternative training are banging down the door to be a teacher right now?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Teachers taking a lot of time off is relevant because the data point was “the average salary is only $XX”. Well, they’re not working the entire year.
 
As for the 2,035 hours worked.. there are many of us who are salaried, yet can hardly imagine working that LITTLE in a year. There may be time management issues (I hardly believe every teacher has to work 55 hours a week in order to do their job), but the idea of ‘I don’t get a summer job because I work a lot during the school year’ seems like a decision that is fine to make, but lessens the argument of ‘I need more money’.

The argument isn't "I need more money."  The argument is "I am paid too little for what I do."

And this is what the marketplace is saying right?  People either aren't entering the profession, or they are exiting the profession prior to retirement, because they feel underpaid.  Either they can make more doing something else OR they can make something similar doing something easier.  (I know former teachers that fit both categories BTW.)

So I am not saying "let's pay teachers more" because it is the right thing to do. I am saying we need to pay them more to attract and retain qualified people in the profession. That's exactly what my microeconomics class taught me would happen when there is a lack of supply. It is also exactly what private industry would do if there was a shortage of accountants, etc.

[tower912]

JB, you already spend a lot of time coaching.   Quit your job and start teaching, too.    You can still have your summers for the AAU circuit.    Private schools and charter schools are options, too.   I am sure you would be welcomed.