Masks

[Hards Alumni]

Local hospitals are again turning people away.    Highest numbers ever.  Highest daily number of cases statewide since a year ago. 80 deaths a day, statewide. 
School districts shutting down, too many teacher and student illnesses to even go virtual.  Why on  earth would anyone think it is safe to  be unmasked and unvaccinated?

Dane County is choosing prudence.

I don't live there.  I'm sorry those people are too stupid to get vaccinated, but this is the path they've chosen.  Pick the number, tower.

[pacearrow02]

I don't live there.  I'm sorry those people are too stupid to get vaccinated, but this is the path they've chosen.  Pick the number, tower.

Pick a number or at least use real numbers.  Assuming he was talking hospitalizations, deaths, etc as it relates to Wisconsin we are nowhere near 80 deaths a day, record hospitalizations, or needing to turn patients away.  I'm sure there have been an instance or two of schools temporarily shutting down but nothing that I've seen or I'm the surrounding area that I live.  Tower has had some hot takes this week as it relates to what's going on in a state that he doesn't live in that's for sure.

[tower912]

Pick a number.
Vaccination %?
Number of new cases per day?
Number of deaths per day?
Number of new cases among children?
Between 1-10?
Number of things shown to slow spread?  OK, that number is three.

Minnesota and Michigan are now where Florida was during late summer and early fall.   

[pacearrow02]

Pick a number.
Vaccination %?
Number of new cases per day?
Number of deaths per day?
Number of new cases among children?
Between 1-10?
Number of things shown to slow spread?  OK, that number is three.

Minnesota and Michigan are now where Florida was during late summer and early fall.

You still aren't picking a number. 

[The Sultan]

Pick a number.
Vaccination %?
Number of new cases per day?
Number of deaths per day?
Number of new cases among children?
Between 1-10?
Number of things shown to slow spread?  OK, that number is three.

Minnesota and Michigan are now where Florida was during late summer and early fall.   

And Florida, with zero mask mandates and a rather average vaccination rate considering the age of its population, has seen their case counts drop significantly since then.

Eventually burdening the entire population because a segment won't take the steps necessary to keep themselves healthy isn't a tenable position.

[tower912]

I disagree with the premise that a mask is a burden.

[The Sultan]

I disagree with the premise that a mask is a burden.

Many people don't.

[tower912]

Clearly.

[pbiflyer]

Many people don't.

Many of those same think vaccines are a burden and ivermectin is a wonder drug.....

[JWags85]

Many of those same think vaccines are a burden and ivermectin is a wonder drug.....

See I don't think thats fair and thats not at all what FBM is talking about.  We're all in agreement that people that haven't gotten the vaccine yet are some form of stubborn/stupid/willfully ignorant.  But its unfair to continue to assume that those who have taken all the steps, distanced, gotten vaccines and boosters, etc... are in the same bucket as anti-vaxxers cause they don't see mask wearing in perpetuity as NBD. 

Its not unreasonable to ask when does it stop?  First it was vaccines, then vaccines for kids, so now what?  Its not going to be eradicated and we're not going to get to 95%+ vaccination, so what are we waiting for?  Applauding "prudence" or abundance of caution without a plan seems excessive at this point.  Just some people have no issue with a mask for whatever reason, I'm gonna take issue with being deemed some form of selfish/impatient/whatever because I don't want to wear one anymore after 3 shots when everyone and anyone who wants one can get one.

[Hards Alumni]

I disagree with the premise that a mask is a burden.

You're welcome to wear an N95 for the rest of your life then.

See I don't think thats fair and thats not at all what FBM is talking about.  We're all in agreement that people that haven't gotten the vaccine yet are some form of stubborn/stupid/willfully ignorant.  But its unfair to continue to assume that those who have taken all the steps, distanced, gotten vaccines and boosters, etc... are in the same bucket as anti-vaxxers cause they don't see mask wearing in perpetuity as NBD. 

Its not unreasonable to ask when does it stop?  First it was vaccines, then vaccines for kids, so now what?  Its not going to be eradicated and we're not going to get to 95%+ vaccination, so what are we waiting for?  Applauding "prudence" or abundance of caution without a plan seems excessive at this point.  Just some people have no issue with a mask for whatever reason, I'm gonna take issue with being deemed some form of selfish/impatient/whatever because I don't want to wear one anymore after 3 shots when everyone and anyone who wants one can get one.

Yup.

[MUBurrow]

See I don't think thats fair and thats not at all what FBM is talking about.  We're all in agreement that people that haven't gotten the vaccine yet are some form of stubborn/stupid/willfully ignorant.  But its unfair to continue to assume that those who have taken all the steps, distanced, gotten vaccines and boosters, etc... are in the same bucket as anti-vaxxers cause they don't see mask wearing in perpetuity as NBD. 

Its not unreasonable to ask when does it stop?  First it was vaccines, then vaccines for kids, so now what?  Its not going to be eradicated and we're not going to get to 95%+ vaccination, so what are we waiting for?  Applauding "prudence" or abundance of caution without a plan seems excessive at this point.  Just some people have no issue with a mask for whatever reason, I'm gonna take issue with being deemed some form of selfish/impatient/whatever because I don't want to wear one anymore after 3 shots when everyone and anyone who wants one can get one.

+2

And as Fluff mentions with the Florida comp, and as was outined in that NYT article a couple weeks back, we are seeing policies like mask mandates having less and less of a correlative impact with surges.  That isn't anti science - masks definitely help prevent spread.  But with the vaccines as established as they are, from a public health standpoint, the only thing mask mandates do is protect a rounding error percentile of the unvaccinated from dying (those people aren't being safe in the other 99% of their lives when they aren't in a place actively mandating masks) and vaccinated folks from potentially having to call into work for a few days.  I was all aboard mandates before kids could get vaxxed, because kids have been wearing the brunt of adult stupidity this whole time - but at this point this thing is what it is.

[tower912]

You're welcome to wear an N95 for the rest of your life then.

Honestly, as often as I come into contact with people with active COVID (20 minutes ago), that would be the considerate thing to do.

[MUBurrow]

Honestly, as often as I come into contact with people with active COVID (20 minutes ago), that would be the considerate thing to do.

Tower, I feel for you man, I really do.  You and folks in your field continue to be face to face with the most anti-social among us, and are at increased risk of catching covid in your professional life every day. First responders, health care professionals, and relevant to this board, dentists, are going to be dealing with covid aftershocks longer and more directly than the rest of us. Professionally, you folks are going to be in masks for a long, long time. A lot of best practices are never going to be the same.  I remember early in the pandemic a lot of hospital systems were on zoom calls with southeast asian health care facilities to learn how to route hospital traffic to try to prevent spread. Those are lessons we can't afford for them to unlearn.

But the people who are trying to give you covid every day are going to keep trying to give you covid every day.  Its what they do and who they are.  Enforcing mask mandates at the coffee shop has less and less of an impact on that. 

[pbiflyer]

See I don't think thats fair and thats not at all what FBM is talking about.  We're all in agreement that people that haven't gotten the vaccine yet are some form of stubborn/stupid/willfully ignorant.  But its unfair to continue to assume that those who have taken all the steps, distanced, gotten vaccines and boosters, etc... are in the same bucket as anti-vaxxers cause they don't see mask wearing in perpetuity as NBD. 

Its not unreasonable to ask when does it stop?  First it was vaccines, then vaccines for kids, so now what?  Its not going to be eradicated and we're not going to get to 95%+ vaccination, so what are we waiting for?  Applauding "prudence" or abundance of caution without a plan seems excessive at this point.  Just some people have no issue with a mask for whatever reason, I'm gonna take issue with being deemed some form of selfish/impatient/whatever because I don't want to wear one anymore after 3 shots when everyone and anyone who wants one can get one.

But that is not what he said. He said people believe masks are a burden. Not that masks are unnecessary for some people. Different discussion. Calling masks a burden is hyperbole. Just like calling vaccines dangerous or ivermectin a cure for Covid.

[The Sultan]

But that is not what he said. He said people believe masks are a burden. Not that masks are unnecessary for some people. Different discussion. Calling masks a burden is hyperbole. Just like calling vaccines dangerous or ivermectin a cure for Covid.

Fine.  They are a nuisance.  And as Wags says, at what point do we stop having everyone endure this nuisance for the sake of a few people who won't get vaccinated? 

[Hards Alumni]

But that is not what he said. He said people believe masks are a burden. Not that masks are unnecessary for some people. Different discussion. Calling masks a burden is hyperbole. Just like calling vaccines dangerous or ivermectin a cure for Covid.

I see we're playing the semantics game now.

[tower912]

Fine.  They are a nuisance.  And as Wags says, at what point do we stop having everyone endure this nuisance for the sake of a few people who won't get vaccinated?

When it is somewhere in the same time zone as over.   Currently, it is not

[The Sultan]

When it is somewhere in the same time zone as over.   Currently, it is not

People have a safe and effective tool to end this, but refuse to use it, so I disagree. 

[pbiflyer]

I see we're playing the semantics game now.

No, when people call wearing a mask a burden, they are dismissed by most people. They are grouped with those comparing it to nazi death camps. Can't have a serious discussion with them.
I want this pandemic over. Those calling wearing a mask a "burden" don't want to do anything to help end it.

[The Sultan]

No, when people call wearing a mask a burden, they are dismissed by most people. They are grouped with those comparing it to nazi death camps. Can't have a serious discussion with them.
I want this pandemic over. Those calling wearing a mask a "burden" don't want to do anything to help end it.

Seriously?  Go over my posting history in this topic and if you can continue claim I "don't want to do anything to help end it," then you're an idiot. 

Honestly, making a conclusion like that cause I used one word. 

[Skatastrophy]

People have a safe and effective tool to end this, but refuse to use it, so I disagree. 

Disagree that we're there (but we're getting close). My friends have kids that are sub-5 with other issues that are unable to get vaccinated because of their age.

Thankfully we live in Chicago where we've been able to keep the spread lower than rural areas because the mask mandates are enforced. Just like Madison. Despite the high population density, both cities have low infection rate per 100k residents.

[tower912]

People have a safe and effective tool to end this, but refuse to use it, so I disagree.

I know.   As my coworker is busy changing his Thanksgiving plans since his pre-school aged niece brought it home and infected his sister and brother in law.   

You can believe anything you want.   This ongoing pandemic has proven that.  What do the current numbers say?

[Hards Alumni]

Disagree that we're there (but we're getting close). My friends have kids that are sub-5 with other issues that are unable to get vaccinated because of their age.

Thankfully we live in Chicago where we've been able to keep the spread lower than rural areas because the mask mandates are enforced. Just like Madison. Despite the high population density, both cities have low infection rate per 100k residents.

What if told you the reported number of children under 11 that have died from covid19 in the US is 276 as of October since the start of the pandemic.  I can't find information about children under 5.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/data-shows-more-children-are-getting-sick-dying-covid-n1281616

I'm not attempting to minimize the loss felt by those 276 families, but regardless of their vaccination rate, we will still lose people to this virus every single year for the rest of the existence of humanity (short of an absolute cure that is available worldwide).  More people die from car accidents to deer.  Around 50 children die every year from chickenpox.  There is a vaccine for that, but what percent of children have had it?  Surely you can see where I'm going with this.  Covid19 poses a near zero fatal risk to children under 11 who contract it.  If society is deciding to wait until kids under 5 can get vaccinated, that's fine, but it is a decision that is based on misplaced fear instead of facts.

What are we doing here?

[Hards Alumni]

I know.   As my coworker is busy changing his Thanksgiving plans since his pre-school aged niece brought it home and infected his sister and brother in law.   

You can believe anything you want.   This ongoing pandemic has proven that.  What do the current numbers say?

Hmmm your coworker's preschool aged niece is probably over the age of 5 and therefore has had ample opportunity to be vaccinated under 5 and at a extremely low risk of hospitalization and even less for death.  Just like the adults have had plenty of time to become vaccinated as well.  So they're as protected as they can be.

Likely no one will be hospitalized, and even less likely someone will die.

What exactly do you expect to happen?  We aren't ever going to zero.

edit:  apparently I think preschoolers are older than they are.