Masks

[Warriors4ever]

Today's paper said that far southern Illinois has no ICU beds open.

[jfmu]

Huh?

Typo. Should have said "aren't".

There's this narrative that the ICUs are flooded with Covid patients but if you look at the link the overwhelming amount of beds are not with covid patients (in Illinois). I'm using Illinois bc that's one place where they actually have the breakdown to see. You can also see the amount of icu beds has dropped since the beginning of the pandemic.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Sweden update.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/swedens-pandemic-experiment?utm_campaign=falcon&utm_source=facebook&utm_brand=tny&mbid=social_facebook&utm_social-type=owned&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=cm_paid_social_tny_paid_content_broad_swedens-pandemic-experiment&utm_social-type=paid&utm_brand=thenewyorker&fbclid=IwAR1KqedVEMwmxpPcRECQzv1BXvgq-5Jr1c5L9sGbpQklkudvBp-5X2PobLY

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Typo. Should have said "aren't".

There's this narrative that the ICUs are flooded with Covid patients but if you look at the link the overwhelming amount of beds are not with covid patients (in Illinois). I'm using Illinois bc that's one place where they actually have the breakdown to see. You can also see the amount of icu beds has dropped since the beginning of the pandemic.

The issue is that we need our icu beds.  They aren't just sitting there open and waiting, people have disease that requires hospital care. 

So yeah covid isn't all the beds but it is the reason we are forced to and above capacity.  Also this isn't a narrative, it's happening in hot spots.  It's not happening in areas that aren't hot spots for the reason you describe...they are handling it with the capacity available. 

[MU82]

This ain't gonna go over big in South Cackalacky ...

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article254271153.html?

Masks will be required at South Carolina's Williams-Brice Stadium due to Columbia's citywide mask mandate.

In an email sent to students Wednesday, the university said that Williams-Brice Stadium falls under the "crowded outdoor spaces" guideline in the mask mandate enacted on Sept. 8. The ordinance is in effect for 30 days.

USC's email to students notes that the "City of Columbia is solely responsible" for enforcing the mandate. Those not wearing masks can be fined up to $100.

The email was initially shared to social media by The Daily Gamecock and was confirmed by a USC spokesperson.

Last week, more people were hospitalized in South Carolina from COVID-19 than at any point since the virus hit last March, according to data from the state's Department of Health and Environmental Control. From Sept. 4-10, DHEC reported 30,757 new cases of COVID-19, an average of about 4,394 cases a day.

[Warriors4ever]

That Sweden article is from April.

[Dr. Blackheart]

That Sweden article is from April.

Sorry. No idea why it was on my FB newsfeed this AM. 

[Pakuni]

Typo. Should have said "aren't".

There's this narrative that the ICUs are flooded with Covid patients but if you look at the link the overwhelming amount of beds are not with covid patients (in Illinois). I'm using Illinois bc that's one place where they actually have the breakdown to see. You can also see the amount of icu beds has dropped since the beginning of the pandemic.

On the other hand ...


An Illinois region reported Monday and Tuesday that it ran out of intensive care unit beds, a milestone that has meant delayed surgeries and, in some cases, longer waits for appropriate care.
In the latest Illinois Department of Public Health count released Tuesday, the state's southern region reported that, overnight Monday, its hospitals had no available ICU beds in an area that includes roughly 400,000 people. As of Tuesday morning, 19 hospitals in that region still had zero open ICU beds, said Arien Herrmann, regional hospital coordinating center manager for the area.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-zero-icu-beds-covid-20210915-k672qydhsfbqfpmg52yyjpv2wy-story.html

But yes, unlike some southern parts of the state (and country), ICUs are not being overwhelmed in northern Illinois.
I wonder why that is.

[jfmu]

The issue is that we need our icu beds.  They aren't just sitting there open and waiting, people have disease that requires hospital care. 

So yeah covid isn't all the beds but it is the reason we are forced to and above capacity.  Also this isn't a narrative, it's happening in hot spots.  It's not happening in areas that aren't hot spots for the reason you describe...they are handling it with the capacity available.

I understand but that's not the way these arguments are being framed. The general population is acting like hospitals don't normally run their ICUs at high capacity.

[jfmu]

On the other hand ...


An Illinois region reported Monday and Tuesday that it ran out of intensive care unit beds, a milestone that has meant delayed surgeries and, in some cases, longer waits for appropriate care.
In the latest Illinois Department of Public Health count released Tuesday, the state's southern region reported that, overnight Monday, its hospitals had no available ICU beds in an area that includes roughly 400,000 people. As of Tuesday morning, 19 hospitals in that region still had zero open ICU beds, said Arien Herrmann, regional hospital coordinating center manager for the area.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-zero-icu-beds-covid-20210915-k672qydhsfbqfpmg52yyjpv2wy-story.html

But yes, unlike some southern parts of the state (and country), ICUs are not being overwhelmed in northern Illinois.
I wonder why that is.

Got it...Let's continue to make a big deal that all 87 of the ICU beds in Region 5 of Illinois are utilized. Especially when you have no idea the breakdown...

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I understand but that's not the way these arguments are being framed. The general population is acting like hospitals don't normally run their ICUs at high capacity.

Ahh got it.  My guess is its because people can't handle complexity.  I've heard people say things like 'we're supposed to use our hospital capacity' and I just shake my head because you are right -- people don't understand that we already do.

Maybe everyone should binge ER for a month to remind themselves how busy the ED/ICU usually is

[Pakuni]

Got it...Let's continue to make a big deal that all 87 of the ICU beds in Region 5 of Illinois are utilized. Especially when you have no idea the breakdown...

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Is it your belief that ICU beds in southern Illinois are filling up with non-COVID patients? That'd be a pretty astounding coincidence, don't you think?

[jfmu]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Is it your belief that ICU beds in southern Illinois are filling up with non-COVID patients? That'd be a pretty astounding coincidence, don't you think?

What I'm getting at is that its likely the greater majority are non-covid. Even if its half covid that's double the Illinois rate currently.

There's also a total of 87 ICU beds in the region that's currently out of ICU beds. You article mentioned 400,000 people in the area.

If you want to have the argument that as an area/state/country we don't have enough ICU beds, that's fine. But sounding the alarm that 87 ICU beds for a place with 400,000 people is a little much.

Before looking into it i was surprised that the entire state if illinois has just over 3,000 ICU beds.

I get it - it sucks but the hyperbole from both sides of the covid environment need to relax. We just need to move on and get back to normal...

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

If you want to have the argument that as an area/state/country we don't have enough ICU beds, that's fine. But sounding the alarm that 87 ICU beds for a place with 400,000 people is a little much.

...unless you live in that area.

Honestly we haven't proved anywhere yet that we can not impact quality of care or capacity....thus the need for mitigation.  The high vax states this summer may have found the balance (will be tested this winter).

Should that not be reported so people can 'relax and get back to normal'? That hasnt worked out for every place in the last three months that have epidemics that have over-filled their hospitals.

[pacearrow02]

Typo. Should have said "aren't".

There's this narrative that the ICUs are flooded with Covid patients but if you look at the link the overwhelming amount of beds are not with covid patients (in Illinois). I'm using Illinois bc that's one place where they actually have the breakdown to see. You can also see the amount of icu beds has dropped since the beginning of the pandemic.

Wisconsin does a pretty good job of breaking down who is in the ICU right now.

Currently in whole state ICU beds are 94% occupied with 75% of those not having Covid.  Throw in maybe 5% of the Patients categorized as Covid positive but in the ICU for primarily other reasons that puts the ICU census around 80% of non-Covid which is around the normal avg.  The additional 15% occupancy from Covid patients certainly stresses those teams a little more because of isolation/PPE protocols that need to followed but like you said these units are always jam packed which is why it's rare to see a nurse who spends decades at the bedside in an ICU environment, high stress always!!

[The Sultan]

Wisconsin does a pretty good job of breaking down who is in the ICU right now.

Currently in whole state ICU beds are 94% occupied with 75% of those not having Covid.  Throw in maybe 5% of the Patients categorized as Covid positive but in the ICU for primarily other reasons that puts the ICU census around 80% of non-Covid which is around the normal avg.  The additional 15% occupancy from Covid patients certainly stresses those teams a little more because of isolation/PPE protocols that need to followed but like you said these units are always jam packed which is why it's rare to see a nurse who spends decades at the bedside in an ICU environment, high stress always!!

There are about 1,360 ICU beds in the state, and as of two days ago, are occupied by 320 Covid patients.  That's 23.5%.

[forgetful]

I don't get this argument of "most of the ICU beds are occupied by other things than COVID so people are over-reacting".

A single illness never takes up over 20% of ICU beds. That is unheard of and is a massive deal leading to people dying because they can't get a bed.

If over 20% of ICU beds were due to food poisoning, or a chickenpox outbreak...it would be national catastrophic news, and the entire nation would be undergoing special protocols to stem the tide.

I don't get the mindset of the people that push this narrative. It is a huge deal and is being reported as such. We need to do everything we can to mitigate further spread and stress on the system.

[pacearrow02]

There are about 1,360 ICU beds in the state, and as of two days ago, are occupied by 320 Covid patients.  That's 23.5%.

Right....so 75% non Covid, like I said

[jesmu84]

Right....so 75% non Covid, like I said

Now how does that affect staffing and resources?

[pacearrow02]

Now how does that affect staffing and resources?

It affects both as you would imagine, the good news is that hospitals now know what resources it takes to care for a Covid patient so it's a little more predictable and they can plan for it.

The bigger concern I'm hearing from hospital administrators is the unknown percentage of there workforce that will quit/fired once the vaccine mandates go into place and how that will affect their health systems ability to handle the inevitable fall surge.  Some are estimating 1% while others are fearing as much as 10% would leave during a time where nursing shortages are being felt at all levels and corners of the country.

[Pakuni]

It affects both as you would imagine, the good news is that hospitals now know what resources it takes to care for a Covid patient so it's a little more predictable and they can plan for it.

The bigger concern I'm hearing from hospital administrators is the unknown percentage of there workforce that will quit/fired once the vaccine mandates go into place and how that will affect their health systems ability to handle the inevitable fall surge.  Some are estimating 1% while others are fearing as much as 10% would leave during a time where nursing shortages are being felt at all levels and corners of the country.

If United Airlines' experience is any indication, it's probably nothing to worry about.


@AllisonLHedges
United Airlines says almost 90% of its workers have been vaccinated since the airline instituted a company-wide mandate last month, and CEO Scott Kirby says resignations over the mandate are "in single digits."
https://twitter.com/AllisonLHedges/status/1438470178304663558

[Warrior2008]

I don't get this argument of "most of the ICU beds are occupied by other things than COVID so people are over-reacting".

A single illness never takes up over 20% of ICU beds. That is unheard of and is a massive deal leading to people dying because they can't get a bed.

If over 20% of ICU beds were due to food poisoning, or a chickenpox outbreak...it would be national catastrophic news, and the entire nation would be undergoing special protocols to stem the tide.

I don't get the mindset of the people that push this narrative. It is a huge deal and is being reported as such. We need to do everything we can to mitigate further spread and stress on the system.

What's even more annoying are people who have never spent a day working in a hospital who assume all ICU beds are equal, they aren't.  States list the total number of ICU beds, but hospitals separate general ICU's where sick people might go from other ICU's like cardiac, surgical, trauma, pediatric, etc.  You don't want your recovering hip surgery patient in a SICU coming down with a nosocomial infection because they were sharing the same staff as a covid patient.  You can't put an adult covid patient on a ventilator in a NICU just because there is an available staffed ICU bed.

[MU82]

The bigger concern I'm hearing ...

This sounds like the previous president, who loved to say, "I'm hearing" or "people say" or "people tell me" when he was making stuff up.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not just making this up and that you have a pipeline to numerous hospital administrators who have voiced this concern to you ...

Don't you think patients and their families should have the expectation that when they step into a hospital, the nurses, doctors and support staff have been vaccinated for a highly contagious virus that already has killed 650K Americans? Wouldn't you and your loved ones have that expectation every time you step into a hospital?

What is your solution other than terminating selfish, irrational employees who refuse to get vaccinated? Restrict unvaccinated staff to areas where they can never come face-to-face with patients or vaccinated co-workers? Establish separate COVID-19 wards for unvaccinated patients staffed strictly by unvaccinated medical personnel?

I'll tell you what the largest hospital network in the southeast is doing because their CEO sent an email to all employees a couple weeks ago explaining it:

They're going to fire every employee who isn't vaccinated by Oct. 31 - period. Meanwhile, they've been hiring hundreds of recent grads to be RNs and nursing aides, stipulating that those employees must be vaccinated to get hired. And they have increased the pay for current and incoming staff.

So yes, they will be trading experienced nurses who are willing to get infected with a deadly virus for inexperienced nurses who are willing to follow life-saving rules. If I or a loved one had to go to that hospital, it sounds like a reasonable trade-off to me.

[pacearrow02]

This sounds like the previous president, who loved to say, "I'm hearing" or "people say" or "people tell me" when he was making stuff up.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not just making this up and that you have a pipeline to numerous hospital administrators who have voiced this concern to you ...

Don't you think patients and their families should have the expectation that when they step into a hospital, the nurses, doctors and support staff have been vaccinated for a highly contagious virus that already has killed 650K Americans? Wouldn't you and your loved ones have that expectation every time you step into a hospital?

What is your solution other than terminating selfish, irrational employees who refuse to get vaccinated? Restrict unvaccinated staff to areas where they can never come face-to-face with patients or vaccinated co-workers? Establish separate COVID-19 wards for unvaccinated patients staffed strictly by unvaccinated medical personnel?

I'll tell you what the largest hospital network in the southeast is doing because their CEO sent an email to all employees a couple weeks ago explaining it:

They're going to fire every employee who isn't vaccinated by Oct. 31 - period. Meanwhile, they've been hiring hundreds of recent grads to be RNs and nursing aides, stipulating that those employees must be vaccinated to get hired. And they have increased the pay for current and incoming staff.

So yes, they will be trading experienced nurses who are willing to get infected with a deadly virus for inexperienced nurses who are willing to follow life-saving rules. If I or a loved one had to go to that hospital, it sounds like a reasonable trade-off to me.

I meet with hospital staff all day every day, from c-suite all the way down to the bedside nurse so when I say this is what I'm hearing, it is indeed what I'm hearing.

Did anywhere in my original post say that I agree with these nurses who would rather be fired then get vaccinated?  So you're acknowledging the largest health system is anticipating having to fire hundreds of nurses by getting out in front of it and hiring hundreds of nurses straight out of school.

So you agree (through your own personal experience it seems) with what I'm hearing even though you're skeptical as to whether or not I'm actually hearing it.  Is that right? 

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I don't get this argument of "most of the ICU beds are occupied by other things than COVID so people are over-reacting".

Perhaps because the argument is not in good faith.