Masks

[pbiflyer]

They actually do exist, so don't be so dismissive.  I work with plenty of at risk individuals who cannot wear a mask.

MY 95 yo father requires oxygen and wears a mask in public. Not sure I have seen many people that can't put a mask on for brief periods of time.

[jficke13]

They actually do exist, so don't be so dismissive.  I work with plenty of at risk individuals who cannot wear a mask.

Maybe they shouldn't walk around Key West during a pandemic that primarily attacks the respiratory system?

[MUfan12]

Anybody see the study about mask effectiveness? Since the numbers went down I've been using a bandana. Didn't know it was essentially useless.

Have a link? I'd be interested in seeing the study.

[Galway Eagle]

Have a link? I'd be interested in seeing the study.

https://www.fau.edu/newsdesk/articles/efficacy-facemasks-coronavirus.php

[🏀]

https://www.fau.edu/newsdesk/articles/efficacy-facemasks-coronavirus.php

The bandana is useless, they're cheap, thin pieces of cloth.

[Hards Alumni]

Maybe they shouldn't walk around Key West during a pandemic that primarily attacks the respiratory system?

Yeah we don't live in a vacuum here.  I don't think that Key West is the only city doing this.

Since all of Dane County requires masks as well.

MY 95 yo father requires oxygen and wears a mask in public. Not sure I have seen many people that can't put a mask on for brief periods of time.

That's nice for your father, but you do what anecdotal means, right?  I'm telling you, I have a few developmentally disabled people who cannot.

[rocky_warrior]

Disagree about "useless". With a bandana the 6ft guideline is still in play as opposed to without. Sure there are more effective options, but wearing a bandana is still protecting others with distancing.

From the study:

Without a mask, droplets traveled more than 8 feet; with a bandana, they traveled 3 feet, 7 inches; with a folded cotton handkerchief, they traveled 1 foot, 3 inches; with the stitched quilting cotton mask, they traveled 2.5 inches; and with the cone-style mask, droplets traveled about 8 inches. 

[jficke13]

Yeah we don't live in a vacuum here.  I don't think that Key West is the only city doing this.

Since all of Dane County requires masks as well.

That's nice for your father, but you do what anecdotal means, right?  I'm telling you, I have a few developmentally disabled people who cannot.

not sure if trolling or...

But in all seriousness, yes, the world is large and the population is massive enough that there will invariably be a statistically miniscule number of people who "cannot" wear masks for one reason or another. My response to them does not change: If you have a medical condition that renders you incapable of wearing a mask, then you should not be in public during a pandemic.

The larger issue that was implicit in your "how will they tell who has a legitimate excuse and cannot wear a mask" concern post is that it gives cover to people who want an excuse to not wear a mask because they're too selfish to do so. I've seen enough fake service dog vests on dachsunds to know that the shamelessness of some of my fellow Americans knows no depths, so I'm confident there are people out there using your legitimate concern for your coworkers to evade wearing a mask. Heck, there's even a mask exemption card grift floating around citing nonsense laws that do not apply and do not provide a legal exemption to mask requirements.

[Hards Alumni]

not sure if trolling or...

But in all seriousness, yes, the world is large and the population is massive enough that there will invariably be a statistically miniscule number of people who "cannot" wear masks for one reason or another. My response to them does not change: If you have a medical condition that renders you incapable of wearing a mask, then you should not be in public during a pandemic.

The larger issue that was implicit in your "how will they tell who has a legitimate excuse and cannot wear a mask" concern post is that it gives cover to people who want an excuse to not wear a mask because they're too selfish to do so. I've seen enough fake service dog vests on dachsunds to know that the shamelessness of some of my fellow Americans knows no depths, so I'm confident there are people out there using your legitimate concern for your coworkers to evade wearing a mask. Heck, there's even a mask exemption card grift floating around citing nonsense laws that do not apply and do not provide a legal exemption to mask requirements.

I'm sorry you read into something incorrectly.

You think it's right to require people who absolutely cannot wear a mask to stay home?

[jficke13]

I'm sorry you read into something incorrectly.

You think it's right to require people who absolutely cannot wear a mask to stay home?

I was simply pointing out that you pointed out one person's anecdote and then replied with one of your own.

And, again, my position has not changed: If you have some kind of condition that prohibits you from wearing a mask, going out during a pandemic is an unwise decision.

It's probably unwise for a person who needs contacts to drive without them, and just because they got pink eye and can't wear those lenses doesn't grant them an exemption from doing the thing that is actively risky to themselves and society.

[Hards Alumni]

I was simply pointing out that you pointed out one person's anecdote and then replied with one of your own.

And, again, my position has not changed: If you have some kind of condition that prohibits you from wearing a mask, going out during a pandemic is an unwise decision.

It's probably unwise for a person who needs contacts to drive without them, and just because they got pink eye and can't wear those lenses doesn't grant them an exemption from doing the thing that is actively risky to themselves and society.

Ah, unwise now.  I was asking about enforcement.

Also, my point wasn't anecdotal... you may want to figure out what that means.

[jficke13]

Ah, unwise now.  I was asking about enforcement.

Also, my point wasn't anecdotal... you may want to figure out what that means.

Unwise to the point where enforcement is warranted. There are external costs associated with perpetuating the myth that there are many people wandering around who cannot tolerate wearing masks. Forcing everyone to wear masks and allowing no exceptions is a means of addressing those costs.

So, yes, sorry, but the vanishingly small number of people who are unable to wear masks should stay indoors. Many people stay indoors and manage to survive, so somehow, I suspect they'll make it.

And... what do you think anecdotal means? Because "I have a few developmentally disabled people who cannot [wear masks]" is... uh... an anecdote.

[Jockey]

I'm sorry you read into something incorrectly.

You think it's right to require people who absolutely cannot wear a mask to stay home?

In a pandemic, hopefully they would be smart enough to stay home.

[Pakuni]

Those who claim they can't wear a mask because of a medical condition are almost certainly lying.

"There are no known medical conditions aside from a severe skin condition [like a very severe burn that needs medical attention] on your face that would prevent a person from wearing this type of mask,” David Kaufman, MD, pulmonologist and director of the medical ICU at Tisch Hospital, tells Health. “If you can wear a scarf to keep your face warm in the winter, you can wear a mask to prevent the spread of disease.”


https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/can-you-be-medically-exempt-from-wearing-a-face-mask

[MarquetteDano]

BBC did a segment on masks the other night and it was interesting.  They asked Americans, Canadians, Australians, and Brits about their opinions on mask wearing then asked Japanese and Koreans (whom obviously have a much higher rate of wearing masks).

Multiple Japanese had a simple response why Asians wear masks more:  "In Asia other's lives outweighs individual freedom.  In some parts of the West,  individual freedom outweighs other people's lives".

Can explain so many things about our culture.  What is interesting is no one in the Western countries owned up to this exact thing when they were asked why.  It was always word salad non-sense,  about mask wearing rules are confusing, or about Asians following rules, etc..

So not only do we value our individual freedom than our fellow compatriot's life,  we don't even have the integrity to admit it.

[MUBurrow]

Multiple Japanese had a simple response why Asians wear masks more:  "In Asia other's lives outweighs individual freedom.  In some parts of the West,  individual freedom outweighs other people's lives".

Can explain so many things about our culture.  What is interesting is no one in the Western countries owned up to this exact thing when they were asked why.  It was always word salad non-sense,  about mask wearing rules are confusing, or about Asians following rules, etc..

So not only do we value our individual freedom than our fellow compatriot's life,  we don't even have the integrity to admit it.

But the bolded might be the better way to look at it! I hate slippery slope arguments because they are all logic fallacies, but there's a legitimate and unresolvable debate to be had around individualism vs collectivism.  I still can't fathom why some deem wearing a mask during a pandemic to be the place to make this stand (I think if you boil it down, its a sad commentary on the lack of purpose most Americans see in their own lives, and this is as close a chance as they'll get to risking their lives for what they perceive to be any kind of reasonable purpose, but that's a deeper debate for another day).  But I'm not sure the root position of valuing an conception of individual freedom over compatriot's lives is prima facie devoid of integrity as your last sentence seems to infer.

[MarquetteDano]

  But I'm not sure the root position of valuing an conception of individual freedom over compatriot's lives is prima facie devoid of integrity as your last sentence seems to infer.

Maybe it isn't integrity?  Maybe is a lack of self awareness?  Either way those Japanese succinctly stated something that we rarely admit.  If we can do what we want,  then we don't care if someone else suffers as a result.

[pbiflyer]

That's nice for your father, but you do what anecdotal means, right?  I'm telling you, I have a few developmentally disabled people who cannot.

Thank you for your perfect example of anecdotal. 

[Hards Alumni]

Unwise to the point where enforcement is warranted. There are external costs associated with perpetuating the myth that there are many people wandering around who cannot tolerate wearing masks. Forcing everyone to wear masks and allowing no exceptions is a means of addressing those costs.

So, yes, sorry, but the vanishingly small number of people who are unable to wear masks should stay indoors. Many people stay indoors and manage to survive, so somehow, I suspect they'll make it.

And... what do you think anecdotal means? Because "I have a few developmentally disabled people who cannot [wear masks]" is... uh... an anecdote.

But I'm not perpetuating that myth.  If you want to require face coverings, there needs to be exceptions.  I'm not talking about people who clearly flaunt rules like jackasses.  I'm talking about people who shouldn't be forced to be locked up over a mask.  What do you suggest someone with no family, no friends, and no means to get necessities do? 

My statement wasn't anecdotal because there are hundreds of people in Dane County alone that can't wear masks.  That is a far cry from a personal story about someone's 95 year old father.  Learn the difference.  My statement has nothing to do with personal experience, it is other people's verifiable experience.

Those who claim they can't wear a mask because of a medical condition are almost certainly lying.

"There are no known medical conditions aside from a severe skin condition [like a very severe burn that needs medical attention] on your face that would prevent a person from wearing this type of mask,” David Kaufman, MD, pulmonologist and director of the medical ICU at Tisch Hospital, tells Health. “If you can wear a scarf to keep your face warm in the winter, you can wear a mask to prevent the spread of disease.”


https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/can-you-be-medically-exempt-from-wearing-a-face-mask

I have customers who salivate/drool to the point that they need to wear a bib or towel in public tied around their neck.  A mask could cause them problems with breathing easily.  I guess I'm just pointing out that all of this isn't so cut and dry (no pun intended).

[Hards Alumni]

Thank you for your perfect example of anecdotal. 

Except it isn't.  I can't tell you their names.  You'd only need to meet one in person to realize that it isn't anecdotal. 

[Pakuni]

I have customers who salivate/drool to the point that they need to wear a bib or towel in public tied around their neck.  A mask could cause them problems with breathing easily.  I guess I'm just pointing out that all of this isn't so cut and dry (no pun intended).

That shouldn't prevent someone from wearing a mask. I can't imagine it would be comfortable or convenient. It probably would require frequent changing or cleaning. But, IMO, you don't get to put everyone around you at risk because a mask would be uncomfortable or inconvenient.

[Hards Alumni]

That shouldn't prevent someone from wearing a mask. I can't imagine it would be comfortable or convenient. It probably would require frequent changing or cleaning. But, IMO, you don't get to put everyone around you at risk because a mask would be uncomfortable or inconvenient.

https://publichealthmdc.com/documents/2020-07-07_Order_8.pdf

While the majority of people are able to wear cloth face coverings, some people may not be
able to due to a medical condition, mental condition, or disability. Additionally, some people of
color in the U.S. have experienced harassment and racism due to wearing a face covering in
public. The following Order should not be used as justification to harass or harm another
person who is either wearing or not wearing a face covering. People should assume others have
valid reasons for wearing or not wearing a face covering

The following individuals are exempt from the requirement to
wear a face covering:
1. Individuals for whom wearing a face covering would
create a risk to the person related to their work, as
determined by government safety guidelines.
2. Individuals with a medical condition, mental health
condition, or disability that prevents them from wearing
a face covering.

I guess public officials agree there should be exceptions.

[Jockey]

Except it isn't.  I can't tell you their names.  You'd only need to meet one in person to realize that it isn't anecdotal.

I don't question your point at all, Hards. But I think even you would admin this applies to maybe 1% of the population, if that.

I think when someone here said most people are lying when they said they cant wear masks, he was correct. Both points can be correct.

[Galway Eagle]

Saw an interview of a group down in Florida protesting masks saying "my body my right" I don't think they picked up on the hilarious irony

[Hards Alumni]

I don't question your point at all, Hards. But I think even you would admin this applies to maybe 1% of the population, if that.

I think when someone here said most people are lying when they said they cant wear masks, he was correct. Both points can be correct.

Oh, absolutely, I'm merely pointing out that 1% exists.