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Author Topic: Lacrosse  (Read 4513 times)

shoothoops

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2020, 11:05:28 AM »
Hay Fluff, it takes one to know one.  I even live a few miles from Trump in Bedminster, N.J..
However, I'm from Long Island City, Queens by way of Virginia, Milwaukee and White Plains, N.Y..  I'd say, sort of well rounded.

BTW, Newark and Camden are beautiful, peaceful examples of systemic change toward more civilized communities.

73% of the Marquette student body is from Illinois or Wisconsin. So it is okay for you to be more well rounded geographically but not MU?

Why were Denver kids flying to Idaho to play hockey. Perhaps its why kids in every sport travel far and wide to play sports. That's a common thing in dozens of sports. Competition, life experience, etc ...Denver has had a long history of hockey popularity at the college and professionally level. And its youth teams have been improving to higher levels in recent years. In ice hockey, ice time is difficult to get, as well as costly. It is common for youth to have to practice and play at all hours.

Why does MU have a lacrosse team?

 1) MU is affiliated with the Big East Conference which has schools with teams, a few, very successful. 2) Lacrosse has been a big booming growth sport at various youth levels across the country. Some Midwest cities have had high school teams for 20 plus years. In California it has been the sport with moat growth in recent years.

Many sports can improve its opportunities for minority as well as low income people. Some do it better than others. Whether it is City League Lax in your area, or RBI baseball, or programs in tennis, golf, you name it...some exist.

Remember life is much bigger and different in reality than limited, incomplete inaccurate stereotypes and generalizations. It is much more individually specific and nuanced. And it's much bigger than one individual's fandom or lackthereof.

A better goal is to integrate sports more, racially, geographically,  socio-economically, as opposed to having superficial separations. Some sports, teams, geographies, etc...are better at this than others.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2020, 11:06:23 AM »
I live in New Jetsey, I carry an Irish Passport, I have an apartment in Bergamo, Italy, my wife is an Italian and American citizen.

I consider blood sports uncivilized. 

Thanks for the history lesson about uncivilized sports.

I subscribe to the Irish Eco and they always have great action photos of young Irish guys beating the hell out of each other.  The new Irish blood sport is fighting with deminstrators, great fun.
NYPD enjoy the legalized thug behavior.

Apologize for the misunderstanding about your whereabouts. Doesn't quite change the bad optics of calling the Native American sport uncivilized.

I carry Irish & USA passports. I have Italian citizenship as well but no passport. Don't see what that has to do with anything about lacrosse or contact sports.

You have every right to not like contact sports. That's Not an argument against them. And if anything taking them away is actually creating greater barriers for  lower classes.

I'm not sure I understand your last paragraph at all. I'm as against police brutality as the next person
Maigh Eo for Sam

Galway Eagle

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2020, 11:10:54 AM »
A better goal is to integrate sports more, racially, geographically,  socio-economically, as opposed to having superficial separations. Some sports, teams, geographies, etc...are better at this than others.

+1
Maigh Eo for Sam

shoothoops

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2020, 11:21:06 AM »
+1

And it has to be prioritized and intentional. It doesn't happen by accident or chance or some sort of trickle down byproduct.

vogue65

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2020, 07:31:02 PM »
Well rounded in what way? Seems like just about all East Coast.

That's why I lived 5+ years in Milwaukee.  I understand very well the midwest mentality.  Yes, it is different.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2020, 07:34:54 PM »
That's why I lived 5+ years in Milwaukee.  I understand very well the midwest mentality.  Yes, it is different.


Didn't you live here like 50 years ago?

I mean, I understand that its different.  No one would seriously disagree with that.  But I am not sure you have a real contemporary view of the midwest or Milwaukee.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

vogue65

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2020, 07:44:55 PM »
Apologize for the misunderstanding about your whereabouts. Doesn't quite change the bad optics of calling the Native American sport uncivilized.

I carry Irish & USA passports. I have Italian citizenship as well but no passport. Don't see what that has to do with anything about lacrosse or contact sports.

You have every right to not like contact sports. That's Not an argument against them. And if anything taking them away is actually creating greater barriers for  lower classes.

I'm not sure I understand your last paragraph at all. I'm as against police brutality as the next person

To understand the NYPD it helps to be an Irish New Yorker.   I grew up in the Irish ghetto, it explains, to me, the current police behavior.

The Eco, I'm still connected to my roots, addresses blood sports in Ireland.  Allow me to even include horse racing. 

We are discussing various sports, their history and characteristics.   People have spoken about native american, Italian, and East Coast sports.  Denver hockey, west coast lacrosse, and Irish sports just broden the discussion. 

I only notice one reasonable explanation for M.U. Lacrosse .  Lacrosse helps east coast student recruiting and is relatively a low cost opetation.  The university has for a long time had the goal of being a national vs. a regional university.  Got it and I  agree.

Nevertheless, there might be better ways of acheiving the goal without lacrosse.  The argument that Marquette plays lacrosse because it has native american roots is rather weak and actually racist, IMHO.


vogue65

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2020, 08:02:48 PM »

Didn't you live here like 50 years ago?

I mean, I understand that its different.  No one would seriously disagree with that.  But I am not sure you have a real contemporary view of the midwest or Milwaukee.

Although I subscribe to the jsonline.com and read it every day, you may be correct, I'm a little out of touch.

After graduation I worked for a Minnessota company for 7 years and would frequently stop by for a visit.  I have had only two visits over the past twenty years.  I recognise that I am as relevant to current Marquette as an anumni in my day who graduated in 1915.  1965-50=1915.  Holy cow!

I understand that Marquette and Milwaukee think, and even smell differently.  While I cherish my memories, the Pfister at 1:00 A.M., 30 degrees below, St. Louis tourch singer in the first floor lounge, times have changed.  No more smells of chocolate, breweries and stock yards.  And now we play lacrosse, it's all part of the package. 






warriorchick

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2020, 08:36:24 PM »


I only notice one reasonable explanation for M.U. Lacrosse .  Lacrosse helps east coast student recruiting and is relatively a low cost opetation.  The university has for a long time had the goal of being a national vs. a regional university.  Got it and I  agree.

Nevertheless, there might be better ways of acheiving the goal without lacrosse.

So if it helps meet other goals Marquette is trying to achieve, what specific issue do you have with lacrosse?
Have some patience, FFS.

vogue65

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2020, 09:16:10 PM »
So if it helps meet other goals Marquette is trying to achieve, what specific issue do you have with lacrosse?

1.   I personally see it as promoting violence.
2.   I see it as elitest.
3.  There are additional goals beyond cost and recruiting.

Your reasons, recruiting and relative cost, are understandable. 

I started at Marquette in 1961 the year after football.  At the time or soon thereafter the univetsity had the slogan, Intellectual and Moral Excellence.  The university had serious concerns about the Friday night pre game wilding, demonstrations, violence, and so-called pep rallies. 

I just think there are better sports to play than lacrosse.  Keep in mind that this discussion is connected to the character of a freshman student athlete who plays the sport.  Put simply, I don't think lacrosse contributes to intellectual or moral excellence.

I know I'm in a minority.  The economic downturn and the pandemic may change intercollegiate sports anyway.

MU82

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2020, 09:40:15 PM »
Why does MU field teams in this sport?

A tribute to all the fine people of La Crosse.

Duh.
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

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JWags85

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2020, 09:54:21 PM »
1.   I personally see it as promoting violence.
2.   I see it as elitest.
3.  There are additional goals beyond cost and recruiting.

Your reasons, recruiting and relative cost, are understandable. 

I started at Marquette in 1961 the year after football.  At the time or soon thereafter the univetsity had the slogan, Intellectual and Moral Excellence.  The university had serious concerns about the Friday night pre game wilding, demonstrations, violence, and so-called pep rallies. 

I just think there are better sports to play than lacrosse.  Keep in mind that this discussion is connected to the character of a freshman student athlete who plays the sport.  Put simply, I don't think lacrosse contributes to intellectual or moral excellence.

I know I'm in a minority.  The economic downturn and the pandemic may change intercollegiate sports anyway.

What is a true meaningful growing sport that generates some sort of revenue that Marquette could add that doesn’t “promote violence”?

There are zero, and that includes baseball which is nationally on a downswing and Midwestern schools are nothing more than cannon fodder cause they can’t practice year round like their southern competitors.

Marquette’s disgustingly East Coast elitist Lax team actually has 60% of its roster from non-East Coast locals and from nearly a dozen other states, including those not traditionally Marquette feeders like Alabama, Georgia, Colorado, and Canada like Ontario and Alberta.

It’s funny that you think of “blood sport” like lacrosse or football as befitting of scorn and taking away from the stature of the university, yet “softer” sports not currently offered like Crew, Men’s Volleyball, Water Polo, or Women’s Field Hockey are just as elitist if not more.

But you’re referencing the rowdiness and “wilding” of a pep rally 60 years ago as justification for decisions made about intercollegiate decisions in 2020 so this is probably a worthless attempt to stop you shouting at clouds

Jables1604

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2020, 11:44:50 PM »
To understand the NYPD it helps to be an Irish New Yorker.   I grew up in the Irish ghetto, it explains, to me, the current police behavior.

The Eco, I'm still connected to my roots, addresses blood sports in Ireland.  Allow me to even include horse racing. 

We are discussing various sports, their history and characteristics.   People have spoken about native american, Italian, and East Coast sports.  Denver hockey, west coast lacrosse, and Irish sports just broden the discussion. 

I only notice one reasonable explanation for M.U. Lacrosse .  Lacrosse helps east coast student recruiting and is relatively a low cost opetation.  The university has for a long time had the goal of being a national vs. a regional university.  Got it and I  agree.

Nevertheless, there might be better ways of acheiving the goal without lacrosse.  The argument that Marquette plays lacrosse because it has native american roots is rather weak and actually racist, IMHO.
18 of 58 players on Marquette’s 2020 men’s lacrosse roster are from the East (and that’s with a very generous definition of “East”)

Why does Marquette have cheerleaders? Or a newspaper?

I think both of those are fads.

(Sorry I have no idea how to use teal).

shoothoops

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2020, 12:12:03 AM »
Vogue65 has stated he doesn't like lacrosse because it is in a list of sports he considers violent, which is fine. He names other typical examples. He does concede the physicality involved in high level of less obvious sports such as soccer (true), and you could also extend that to some other sports too.

Later Vogue65 equates those mentioned violent sports as not being intellectual, or moral, especially in college, which he prefers. This is where he drifts into broad brushes. At the same time he asks if MU plays it because elite schools play it.

It would seem that Vogue65 wants what he considers intellectual and moral sports at MU, while at the same time being what he considers to be non-violent. He is vague about race, socio-economics, geography.

He isn't aware of the mainstream growth of lacrosse over recent decades.

As I mentioned before, I wouldn't paint such broad brushes describing things in stereotypes. Reality can often times be quite different. I would also repeat that better solutions are to increase opportuntinities and integration of those sports in a wide variety of ways racially, geographically, socio-economically, instead of self segragating and walking away from them. (These things have and continue to happen at growing rates)





WarriorDad

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2020, 08:54:03 AM »
Lacrosse is a physical sport, not a violent sport.
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato

vogue65

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2020, 09:43:37 AM »
Is Marquette running a university or a sports program?
Is Marquette a university or a glorified Marriott?
Are student athletes cash cows for the university?

When Marquette discontinued football for a host of reasons including cost, most players left the university.  Obvioisly they were at Marquette to play football.

We may draw players from around the country + Canada, but I don't think many if any students come to Marquette because it has a lacrosse program.

I find broad brushes helpful in framing discussions.  I have learned interesting information from this "broad brush" discussion.

When I did H.S. recruiting I found high school seniors and their parents to be very fickle.  One year it was all about journalism, the next veternary medicine, then compiter science or accounting. 
The university would craft offerings to fit what was on t.v..  Now the big thing is criminology or forensics.  (Talk about fads)

My point being, if we want an elite image go all the way, crew, squash, fencing, OLYMPIC sports.
 
If we want our brand on the field with Johns Hopkins, Princeton, or Duke I suppose marketing trumps reason, my reason.  Go Marquette, beat NAVY, Holy Cross and N.D. our cohort, cost what may.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 01:52:33 PM by vogue65 »

MU82

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2020, 10:26:37 AM »
Shortly after I moved to Charlotte, I refereed high school boys lacrosse for one year. I also reffed junior high and youth league lacrosse. The sport is very popular here.

I went through extensive training but I was still a newby, so I was always the "junior official" on the field, and was always placed with an experienced partner.

I had watched only a little lacrosse before doing this, so I was surprised at how violent the sport is at the high school level. There is a lot of body-to-body contact, and the violence is especially notable in the stick play. The stick is basically a legal weapon.

There are three degrees of penalties -- 1 minute, 2 minutes and 3 minutes. Many of the penalties are similar to hockey (interference, holding, tripping, etc). Only the most egregious infractions received 2-minute penalties. During all the games I worked, no infraction ever was assigned 3 minutes. The vast majority were 1 minute.

Again, as a newby, anytime I threw my penalty flag, I had to confer with my more experienced partner before meting out the punishment.

One time, a kid took a vicious two-handed hack with his stick and hit an opponent so hard that the victim crumbled to the ground. A wound was opened up on the side of the neck, and a little blood was trickling out a small cut. It wasn't a "gusher," but I thought it was really bad, especially for high school.

I huddled with my partner and said, "That's got to be 3, right?"

"Nope, it's only a 2."

"What the hell has to happen for it to be a 3? Does the head actually have to be detached from the body and start rolling down the field?"

"It's a 2."

"Okey dokey then. It's a 2."

That was my only season doing lacrosse. I didn't quit because of the violence but because I decided to focus more on basketball and baseball.

The body-on-body play is similar to a physical basketball game ... but basketball players aren't given a weapon.

All that being said, I have absolutely no problem with Marquette having a lacrosse program. I've even watched parts of a few games and have been entertained, and it was cool when we made the NCAAs. Those who don't like it are not forced to watch it, and I don't think having a relatively violent sport says anything bad about the university.
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

Herman Cain

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2020, 09:37:12 PM »
In general I am a big fan of MU having made the commitment to Lacrosse.

The visibility it gives to MU athletics and academics in the top Athletic High Schools in the US is very helpful . The ACC and Big Ten have made a commitment to the sport and it helps that the Big East has a strong commitment as well. High school kids travel in similar circles for training and participate in multiple sports.

The sport requires a unique combination of hand to eye coordination, speed, lateral quickness, strength and endurance combined with basketball style IQ. Very fun to watch. The best players on any given college team generally have the athletic ability or opportunity to play other D1 sports.

MU has proven to be competitive in a short time and I think they can actually be a consistent team in the upper tier of the sport.

The sport has worked hard to overcome the douche bag factor, but it still lingers in a small way as evidenced by the fact that MU coach had to suspend 19 kids before a game last year . I think any collision sport and especially one that has sticks is going to have similar issues. A good coach can keep a lid on it . 
Old Spice Moisturize with Shea Butter Body Wash is a great product

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=srXChURjbqI

vogue65

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2020, 10:24:56 PM »
Shortly after I moved to Charlotte, I refereed high school boys lacrosse for one year. I also reffed junior high and youth league lacrosse. The sport is very popular here.

I went through extensive training but I was still a newby, so I was always the "junior official" on the field, and was always placed with an experienced partner.

I had watched only a little lacrosse before doing this, so I was surprised at how violent the sport is at the high school level. There is a lot of body-to-body contact, and the violence is especially notable in the stick play. The stick is basically a legal weapon.

There are three degrees of penalties -- 1 minute, 2 minutes and 3 minutes. Many of the penalties are similar to hockey (interference, holding, tripping, etc). Only the most egregious infractions received 2-minute penalties. During all the games I worked, no infraction ever was assigned 3 minutes. The vast majority were 1 minute.

Again, as a newby, anytime I threw my penalty flag, I had to confer with my more experienced partner before meting out the punishment.

One time, a kid took a vicious two-handed hack with his stick and hit an opponent so hard that the victim crumbled to the ground. A wound was opened up on the side of the neck, and a little blood was trickling out a small cut. It wasn't a "gusher," but I thought it was really bad, especially for high school.

I huddled with my partner and said, "That's got to be 3, right?"

"Nope, it's only a 2."

"What the hell has to happen for it to be a 3? Does the head actually have to be detached from the body and start rolling down the field?"

"It's a 2."

"Okey dokey then. It's a 2."

That was my only season doing lacrosse. I didn't quit because of the violence but because I decided to focus more on basketball and baseball.

The body-on-body play is similar to a physical basketball game ... but basketball players aren't given a weapon.

All that being said, I have absolutely no problem with Marquette having a lacrosse program. I've even watched parts of a few games and have been entertained, and it was cool when we made the NCAAs. Those who don't like it are not forced to watch it, and I don't think having a relatively violent sport says anything bad about the university.

MU82,

For a moment there I thought I had a compadre and then I got to your conclusion.   I guess I just don't hang out with SUV moms.   

When I read your story to my wife she got physically upset.   It just goes to show how out of touch we actually are. 
Thanks anyway, your story gave my position an ounce of support. 

JWags85

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2020, 11:50:25 PM »
Yet again with your tolerance and acceptance you lecture us all on. Doesn’t wholly agree with your position so you have to toss a cheap shot at him. Must be a charmed life to get “physically upset” over a HS breeding during a sporting event.

Kudos for at least realizing you’re out of touch. Let us know how your campaign for MU’s dressage team goes with the Athletic Department.

vogue65

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2020, 11:09:52 AM »
Yet again with your tolerance and acceptance you lecture us all on. Doesn’t wholly agree with your position so you have to toss a cheap shot at him. Must be a charmed life to get “physically upset” over a HS breeding during a sporting event.

Kudos for at least realizing you’re out of touch. Let us know how your campaign for MU’s dressage team goes with the Athletic Department.

I think football would more interesting if the players had pugil sticks. 

We are talking about lacrosse so cheap shots are more than appropriate.

I was pretty good with pugil sticks back in the day.   Great training for police academy recruits or Marines. 

Marquette was doing fine before lacrosse, it will do fine after lacrosse. 
To each his own, hurah.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2020, 11:27:05 AM »
If only we could all strive to only play Vogue approved civilized sports. That aren't elitist like Tennis, golf or polo at the country club, perhaps sailing at the yacht club. You know, civilized sports with low barriers to get good at that are WASP approved.

Probably shouldn't play basketball at MU either because it occasionally gets physical especially below the basket. God forbid a fight breaks out.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 11:32:12 AM by Galway Eagle »
Maigh Eo for Sam

vogue65

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2020, 12:43:44 PM »
If only we could all strive to only play Vogue approved civilized sports. That aren't elitist like Tennis, golf or polo at the country club, perhaps sailing at the yacht club. You know, civilized sports with low barriers to get good at that are WASP approved.

Probably shouldn't play basketball at MU either because it occasionally gets physical especially below the basket. God forbid a fight breaks out.

I see a difference between "physicality" and uncivilized.  I don't see hitting someone with a stick as a civilized sport.   An accident is one thing, taking a two handed swing at someones head/neck is another.  And it is only a 2 min. foul? 

WASP, OLYMPIC, is one thing, organized mayhem another.

The NCAA is always trying to make their sports safer.  The flagrant head shot in basketball is a good example.  Ejection for a flagrant foul is appropriate.

I'm going to let go of this topic, have at it, swing away, hone your skills, get on t.v., hang with the surban elite schools.   Sorry I even brought it up, how foolish of me.   

I'll stick with my inner city sports, drum line, handball, basketball and stick ball.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2020, 12:54:49 PM »
I see a difference between "physicality" and uncivilized.  I don't see hitting someone with a stick as a civilized sport.   An accident is one thing, taking a two handed swing at someones head/neck is another.  And it is only a 2 min. foul? 

WASP, OLYMPIC, is one thing, organized mayhem another.

The NCAA is always trying to make their sports safer.  The flagrant head shot in basketball is a good example.  Ejection for a flagrant foul is appropriate.

I'm going to let go of this topic, have at it, swing away, hone your skills, get on t.v., hang with the surban elite schools.   Sorry I even brought it up, how foolish of me.   

I'll stick with my inner city sports, drum line, handball, basketball and stick ball.

Right tell the guy that grew up in the city Of Chicago till he was 15 and played Freshman lacrosse at a CPS school all about how suburban I am compared to your oh so urban self in New Jersey.

Next you'll be telling me any minority kids I played with don't count because it's lacrosse or that lane tech wasn't inner city enough
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 01:25:50 PM by Galway Eagle »
Maigh Eo for Sam

Jables1604

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Re: Lacrosse
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2020, 08:05:57 PM »
 

I'll stick with my inner city sports, drum line, handball, basketball and stick ball.
Handball and stickball were fads.