No Athletic Events if No Students on Campus BE

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

This will likely end with the cure being worse than the disease. Face it, every day without an effective vaccine will be at significant risk. But, we're all going to have to dip our toes into the water, jump in, and swim. The answer is not to bury yourself in a deep hole until you get the 100% all clear sign, hey?

Not many arguing otherwise.  Economy has to open and risks have to be mitigated. 

[Billy Hoyle]

It's not really outside the box.  Schools have been considering it.  And Lake Superior State just announced today that's the model they are going with next year.

https://www.lssu.edu/news/lake-superior-state-announces-early-start-to-fall-2020-semester/

Interesting for sure. I figured they’d start second semester later. You’re not even a quarter of the way through winter in the UP in mid January.

[brewcity77]

Brew, you’re usually a numbers guy and a pretty good one. The cost of shutting down this economy for 7 weeks has been $3,000,000,000,000, a 25% unemployment rate, thousands of businesses (and God knows how many people) bankrupt or teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. This is staggering, and I don’t disagree that it will likely take years to recover. But to assume we can shut down for another 7 weeks (or longer) without much, much more dire consequences makes no sense. Recovering from a sharp, deep, but relatively short lived recession is difficult. Recovering from a depression is a whole other animal.

Bringing parts of the economy back, sure, but you have to bring it back slowly and safely. And you have to open up in ways that will help the businesses.

Consider what's happening in Georgia. Kemp reopened restaurants but with guidelines. So a restaurant that was already operating on thin margins is expected to open. Because they are allowed to be open, many employees are no longer eligible for unemployment. The business won't have as much traffic, both because of new restrictions and because many people aren't willing to go out even if the order is lifted. So the business owner that was already working hard to remain profitable can no longer stay shut, no longer has the benefits of unemployment insurance for his employees, and doesn't have the revenue coming in to keep his business going. Opening up will actually kill many businesses that are better off at the moment waiting things out.

This is why we needed strong government intervention from the start. Robust cash disbursements coming every 2-4 weeks like they did in Canada and many European countries. And a plan to bring the economy back in a way that will both make the public feel safe and allow businesses to succeed when they do reopen. You can put an open sign in the window, but that doesn't guarantee success, and in many cases, it's more likely to guarantee failure.

[GooooMarquette]

I’m watching Nightline right now. They have interviewed owners of restaurants that have reopened on a limited basis... but can’t even fill that limited seating. And restaurants that have extensive takeout capacity are seeing sales far below expectations, so cooks are standing around.

The lesson seems to be that an open business isn’t worth a whole lot if a significant part of its customer base is afraid to show up.

[MU82]

In the latest Pew poll of 11,000 American adults, 68% worry their state governments are lifting COVID-19 restrictions too quickly. Meanwhile, only 31% of those polled feel their states are not lifting restrictions quickly enough.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article242593036.html?

[Lennys Tap]

Bringing parts of the economy back, sure, but you have to bring it back slowly and safely. And you have to open up in ways that will help the businesses.

Consider what's happening in Georgia. Kemp reopened restaurants but with guidelines. So a restaurant that was already operating on thin margins is expected to open. Because they are allowed to be open, many employees are no longer eligible for unemployment. The business won't have as much traffic, both because of new restrictions and because many people aren't willing to go out even if the order is lifted. So the business owner that was already working hard to remain profitable can no longer stay shut, no longer has the benefits of unemployment insurance for his employees, and doesn't have the revenue coming in to keep his business going. Opening up will actually kill many businesses that are better off at the moment waiting things out.

This is why we needed strong government intervention from the start. Robust cash disbursements coming every 2-4 weeks like they did in Canada and many European countries. And a plan to bring the economy back in a way that will both make the public feel safe and allow businesses to succeed when they do reopen. You can put an open sign in the window, but that doesn't guarantee success, and in many cases, it's more likely to guarantee failure.

Sorry Brew, think you’re way, way off base here. Just because businesses (like restaurants) won’t be operating at pre covid levels doesn’t mean they’re not better off (for everyone, owner and employees) than they were if shuttered or only open for carry out. “Waiting this out” (though necessary in the short term) has already meant disaster for thousands of small and medium sized businesses. More waiting will just produce more misery.

Unless you call 3 trillion peanuts we’ve already had unprecedented “government intervention” and there will be more to come. But the bigger the hole the government digs the longer it will take to crawl out of it. That’s just common sense.

Our economy was much stronger than Canada’s or Europe’s going into this and will be much stronger coming out - unless we keep it shut down beyond the tipping point. I don’t know exactly when that is - maybe a depression is already inevitable, but I don’t think so. Shut down indefinitely? It’s a done deal.
 

[Lennys Tap]

I’m watching Nightline right now. They have interviewed owners of restaurants that have reopened on a limited basis... but can’t even fill that limited seating. And restaurants that have extensive takeout capacity are seeing sales far below expectations, so cooks are standing around.

The lesson seems to be that an open business isn’t worth a whole lot if a significant part of its customer base is afraid to show up.

Demand will be a problem for awhile whenever the re-opening. If you think another month (or 2, or 6 or 12) would mean people would flock to restaurants, salons and shop when they reopen I think you’re living in a dream world.

[GooooMarquette]

Demand will be a problem for awhile whenever the re-opening. If you think another month (or 2, or 6 or 12) would mean people would flock to restaurants, salons and shop when they reopen I think you’re living in a dream world.

I don’t think that. I think it will take some time whenever they reopen...but it will be slow if people still feel endangered, and much quicker if people feel safe.

[4everwarriors]

The key will be jobs. If people are working, the economy will rebound much more quickly. Continuing this asinine shutdown and you'll reach the tipping point of depression, hey?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

The key will be jobs. If people are working, the economy will rebound much more quickly. Continuing this asinine shutdown and you'll reach the tipping point of depression, hey?

I mean, the "shut down" is going to end.  Two weeks from this Tuesday if not earlier.  But even in places like Seoul, they had to shut some things back down again because hotspots flared up.  That will likely happen here too.  And its why large crowds at sporting events won't happen for awhile.

Look, the guy you want to absolve of any blame put out criteria on when states should open up, and you apparently want states not to follow that criteria?

There are really no good answers here.  People are going to die.  The economy is going to suck.  Both are undeniably true.  We are going to find out how to balance those two and its going to take some time. 

[brewcity77]

Sorry Brew, think you’re way, way off base here. Just because businesses (like restaurants) won’t be operating at pre covid levels doesn’t mean they’re not better off (for everyone, owner and employees) than they were if shuttered or only open for carry out. “Waiting this out” (though necessary in the short term) has already meant disaster for thousands of small and medium sized businesses. More waiting will just produce more misery.

Unless you call 3 trillion peanuts we’ve already had unprecedented “government intervention” and there will be more to come. But the bigger the hole the government digs the longer it will take to crawl out of it. That’s just common sense.

Our economy was much stronger than Canada’s or Europe’s going into this and will be much stronger coming out - unless we keep it shut down beyond the tipping point. I don’t know exactly when that is - maybe a depression is already inevitable, but I don’t think so. Shut down indefinitely? It’s a done deal.

It's disaster for small businesses because of how it was handled federally. And yes, the stimulus was small peanuts. And maybe there will be more to come, but as the first round wasn't adequate ($1200 should last 10 weeks, AYFKM?) why would we expect them to get it right the next time?

And a large scale opening will have us back in this same place in 3 months because nothing has tangibly changed. We don't have a vaccine and we aren't remotely close to the minimum testing we need so how will we end up with anything other than a spike in deaths (which has already been seen) and a return to quarantine in the Fall if not sooner?

Is it better to open up, kill people, and shut down again or open up later in a deliberate and safe manner?

[Uncle Rico]

I mean, the "shut down" is going to end.  Two weeks from this Tuesday if not earlier.  But even in places like Seoul, they had to shut some things back down again because hotspots flared up.  That will likely happen here too.  And its why large crowds at sporting events won't happen for awhile.

Look, the guy you want to absolve of any blame put out criteria on when states should open up, and you apparently want states not to follow that criteria?

There are really no good answers here.  People are going to die.  The economy is going to suck.  Both are undeniably true.  We are going to find out how to balance those two and its going to take some time.

Ding, ding, ding

A lot of this could have been avoided if the folks in Washington had taken this seriously but narcissism ruled the day.  The buck stops here until I have to make tough decisions

[Scoop Snoop]

I mean, the "shut down" is going to end.  Two weeks from this Tuesday if not earlier.  But even in places like Seoul, they had to shut some things back down again because hotspots flared up.  That will likely happen here too.  And its why large crowds at sporting events won't happen for awhile.

Look, the guy you want to absolve of any blame put out criteria on when states should open up, and you apparently want states not to follow that criteria?

There are really no good answers here.  People are going to die.  The economy is going to suck.  Both are undeniably true.  We are going to find out how to balance those two and its going to take some time.

I live in Virginia and our governor is also a physician. Last night he edged closer to a limited reopening in Virginia but also stated that this virus may be with us for many months and maybe even for years. He reminded everyone that there is no guarantee of a vaccine anytime soon. I like that our state CEO is also a physician. I think that Brew is getting a little roughed up here. Solid and compassionate argument. That does not mean I am in complete agreement with him but I get what he said and he said it very well.

I am clearly in the virus high risk category yet I want the food supply line to be uninterrupted, I want the economy to bounce back as quickly as possible (agree that a certain amount of long term damage has already been done), and I want a lot of other things including a college basketball season. Asking others to risk their lives and perhaps their health is the epitome  of selfishness.

Getting back to the bolded: there are no good answers here. Maybe that is the one thing we can agree on. TAMU's comment about the economy trumping health concerns is the most realistic, non-judgemental assessment I have read here.     

[Knight Commission]

Xavier just announced via Facebook this am that it is planning on having students in the fall. 

[brewcity77]

I live in Virginia and our governor is also a physician. Last night he edged closer to a limited reopening in Virginia but also stated that this virus may be with us for many months and maybe even for years. He reminded everyone that there is no guarantee of a vaccine anytime soon. I like that our state CEO is also a physician. I think that Brew is getting a little roughed up here. Solid and compassionate argument. That does not mean I am in complete agreement with him but I get what he said and he said it very well.

I am clearly in the virus high risk category yet I want the food supply line to be uninterrupted, I want the economy to bounce back as quickly as possible (agree that a certain amount of long term damage has already been done), and I want a lot of other things including a college basketball season. Asking others to risk their lives and perhaps their health is the epitome  of selfishness.

Getting back to the bolded: there are no good answers here. Maybe that is the one thing we can agree on. TAMU's comment about the economy trumping health concerns is the most realistic, non-judgemental assessment I have read here.   

No good answers is right, but economy vs health is a false choice when the economy relies on a healthy labor force and restarting the economy will have the opposite effect.

This has been mismanaged at the top since December and the idea of trying to suppress CDC guidelines about safely reopening when we are still seeing 2,000 deaths per day is ludicrous. We are headed for an unemployment crunch that will conservatively take 5 years to get out of (14.7% unemployment, typically an economy is able to gain back about 1.5% per year in good times, so 5 years is very optimistic) and we've done nothing to strengthen our healthcare system. We need both for this to work. We need healthcare plans and testing in place in order for the economy to function safely and grow efficiently. I don't get how that is so difficult for people to comprehend.

I'm seeing this every day. I'm seeing the effects of this on real actual human beings every single day. This is real and anyone saying otherwise is either selling something or outright lying, more likely both. So how should we get back to reality as we knew it? Slowly, carefully, and with plenty of safety measures in place. Because the alternative is going right back here in a few months. Though I guess we'll do it with fewer mouths to feed.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

This has killed more Americans (72,000) than died from suicide (47,000) and drug overdoes (67,000) in all of 2018. 

[GooooMarquette]

I mean, the "shut down" is going to end.  Two weeks from this Tuesday if not earlier.  But even in places like Seoul, they had to shut some things back down again because hotspots flared up.  That will likely happen here too.  And its why large crowds at sporting events won't happen for awhile.

Look, the guy you want to absolve of any blame put out criteria on when states should open up, and you apparently want states not to follow that criteria?

There are really no good answers here.  People are going to die.  The economy is going to suck.  Both are undeniably true.  We are going to find out how to balance those two and its going to take some time.

Yep.

People don't think there will be a rollback after we reopen, but experience in other places says there will. And the more widespread the virus when we reopen, the sooner we will need to start closing things up again. I would rather wait a bit longer (the President's/CDC's criteria), so we can keep things open for a while and people feel safer. Others would rather open sooner...which means customers will be afraid to go out and we'll have to close things back up a lot sooner.

A balancing act. I favor waiting until the majority of the country says they are ready to be customers again....

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Yep.

People don't think there will be a rollback after we reopen, but experience in other places says there will. And the more widespread the virus when we reopen, the sooner we will need to start closing things up again. I would rather wait a bit longer (the President's/CDC's criteria), so we can keep things open for a while and people feel safer. Others would rather open sooner...which means customers will be afraid to go out and we'll have to close things back up a lot sooner.

A balancing act. I favor waiting until the majority of the country says they are ready to be customers again....

I think you will have to open up even if people aren't ready and let them go out on their own and find their own level of comfort.   I would be fine if Wisconsin's order is shortened and we try to strike a balance sooner rather than later.

[wiscwarrior]

Yeah. Wait until a majority of the public thinks we should reopen. That's using the expertise of the health and economic professions optimally. If we wait too long, there will be fewer paying customers and fewer businesses for them to patronize.

[muguru]

No good answers is right, but economy vs health is a false choice when the economy relies on a healthy labor force and restarting the economy will have the opposite effect.

This has been mismanaged at the top since December and the idea of trying to suppress CDC guidelines about safely reopening when we are still seeing 2,000 deaths per day is ludicrous. We are headed for an unemployment crunch that will conservatively take 5 years to get out of (14.7% unemployment, typically an economy is able to gain back about 1.5% per year in good times, so 5 years is very optimistic) and we've done nothing to strengthen our healthcare system. We need both for this to work. We need healthcare plans and testing in place in order for the economy to function safely and grow efficiently. I don't get how that is so difficult for people to comprehend.

I'm seeing this every day. I'm seeing the effects of this on real actual human beings every single day. This is real and anyone saying otherwise is either selling something or outright lying, more likely both. So how should we get back to reality as we knew it? Slowly, carefully, and with plenty of safety measures in place. Because the alternative is going right back here in a few months. Though I guess we'll do it with fewer mouths to feed.

You know what's not real however?? The # of deaths that are reported as being due to Covid-19 that are actually NOT because of Covid-19. I have this from an incredibly reliable source who has been a nurse for almost 30 years. She flat out told me, a lot of hospitals are labeling it "death to covid-19" because A. they either want to because they have an agenda, or B. because their are no autopsies being done, so there is no proof to the general public that it wasn't due to Covid-19. She told me she has had at least 50 patients die during this time that were 100% NOT due to Covid-19, but hospital administrators told them to "label it as Covid-19". For the record, she's a liberal. Why this info would shock anyone is beyond me, other than the fact that they themselves have an agenda.

[GooooMarquette]

I think you will have to open up even if people aren't ready and let them go out on their own and find their own level of comfort.   I would be fine if Wisconsin's order is shortened and we try to strike a balance sooner rather than later.

Agreed.

I never said we need 100% of the country ready...but I think it needs too be a heck of a lot higher than the ~30% we have today. IMHO if we follow the three-phase criteria, it would strike the right balance...less than 100%, but a lot higher than 30%.

[muguru]

I think you will have to open up even if people aren't ready and let them go out on their own and find their own level of comfort.   I would be fine if Wisconsin's order is shortened and we try to strike a balance sooner rather than later.

I'm actually pretty impressed here Fluffy I must say. Seems you have come a long way on this since the beginning. I'm impressed. This isn't anywhere close to the stance I'd see you taking. *standing applause*

[GooooMarquette]

You know what's not real however?? The # of deaths that are reported as being due to Covid-19 that are actually NOT because of Covid-19. I have this from an incredibly reliable source who has been a nurse for almost 30 years. She flat out told me, a lot of hospitals are labeling it "death to covid-19" because A. they either want to because they have an agenda, or B. because their are no autopsies being done, so there is no proof to the general public that it wasn't due to Covid-19. She told me she has had at least 50 patients die during this time that were 100% NOT due to Covid-19, but hospital administrators told them to "label it as Covid-19". For the record, she's a liberal. Why this info would shock anyone is beyond me, other than the fact that they themselves have an agenda.

Inaccuracies, sure. But there is a lot more underreporting than overreporting, because we still aren't testing anywhere near all symptomatic patients. On balance, I'd bet we are closer to 100,000 than people realize....

[muguru]

I still have never understood why we haven't just isolated the higher risk/elderly  from the very beginning and let the world continue around them, of course with the understanding that those family members of the high risk people know what they'd be getting into and taking proper precautions etc. That seemed like the easiest solution all along.

[Mr. Nielsen]

You know what's not real however?? The # of deaths that are reported as being due to Covid-19 that are actually NOT because of Covid-19. I have this from an incredibly reliable source who has been a nurse for almost 30 years. She flat out told me, a lot of hospitals are labeling it "death to covid-19" because A. they either want to because they have an agenda, or B. because their are no autopsies being done, so there is no proof to the general public that it wasn't due to Covid-19. She told me she has had at least 50 patients die during this time that were 100% NOT due to Covid-19, but hospital administrators told them to "label it as Covid-19". For the record, she's a liberal. Why this info would shock anyone is beyond me, other than the fact that they themselves have an agenda.

This is not the first time I've heard about this.