Where’s the 1952 national catholic league championship banner?

[Galway Eagle]

The 1963 version doesn't mean the version in 1949-1952 are the same.   The NIT from 1965 is not the same as the NIT from 1995 either.  Times change.  If you find my comment patronizing then I apologize.  My sense is you haven't been roaming the earth for close to 70 years and using recency bias.

I'm also sensing that you probably do not know much about Helms national championships, but go back 50 years and that is how we measured champions in college football.  Most people under the age of 40 or even older have little idea what that even was.  Even the UPI, United Press International, had their championship trophy.  I believe they don't exist any longer.  Things change with time.

You don't find it important, schools did at the time.  Washington Post and labeled it as a prestigious, big-time event.

Maybe you should start a wikipedia page as a hobby.  In case that didn't come across as patronizing, that remark was and intended to be so.   

So without any answer to my valid points that there was terrible teams in the 63 version you referenced as proof it was prestigious. Nor my fact that at least 3 of the teams in the field in 52 were trash you offer red herring arguments and ramblings to change the topic.

Also if you are sensing I don't know much about helms championships (where I clearly referenced it as a big deal in my post) then i invite you to reread my post or perhaps start doing sudoku to keep that mind busy before it goes completely as you push 70.

[GoldenDieners32]

Because something was big at the time doesn't mean it lives forever, or for that matter records do.  How important are sacks in the NFL?  Did you know that stats wasn't even a stat in the NFL until 1982.  Go back to the 1950's or 1960's and find a bunch of articles or stats on sacks in a game and they do not exist, but the plays were just as important.

From another article: "That year, Siena had an extremely powerful men’s basketball team, as the Indians compiled a 27-5 record, and received a bid to the NCIT – the National Catholic Invitation Tournament, which at the time was considered one of the three major postseason college tournaments, right up there with the NIT and the NCAA tournament."

Part of this is recency bias.  We see names like Iona, Siena, St. Francis and put them in 2020 terms, not 1940's or 1950's terms.  Some powerful basketball programs back then even if they are not today.  Think back to Navy, Army, CCNY and other programs that had their heyday in bygone eras.


1949 Included St. Francis, St. Thomas, Regis, St. Thomas, St. Norbert's, Loyola, St. Benedict's

This can't be St. Norbert in DePere right?

[GooooMarquette]

Tex's team won the fourth and final NCIT Tournament. While MU had a sub-.500 record before that tourney, the team won that championship, the first in the program's history.

So the NCIT was held for all of 4 years and invited teams with sub-.500 records, yet people are talking like it was a 'big deal' tournament?

I am all for recognizing significant accomplishments, and I really could use something to be excited about right now, but I'm struggling to get anything more than a 'meh' out of this.

[Galway Eagle]

As far as I can tell here's who participated in 52 with their final record (seems like one might be missing):

Le Moyne 8-15
St Francis 20-8
St Joseph's 20-7
Providence 14-9
Siena 24-6
Marquette 12-14
Loyola MD 16-12
Iona 16-10
Gannon 12-13
Scranton 15-14
St Mary's MN 12-11

I see one team with a good record, a couple more with respectable and a whole lot of trash.

So the NCIT was held for all of 4 years and invited teams with sub-.500 records, yet people are talking like it was a 'big deal' tournament?

I am all for recognizing significant accomplishments, and I really could use something to be excited about right now, but I'm struggling to get anything more than a 'meh' out of this.

This!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm an 80s babies, so I definitely lack the context here but I have a question. When people say the NCIT was "up there with the NCAA and NIT as one of the three biggest tournaments", was it really up there where it was comparable to the NIT and NCAA? Or was it a very clear distant third that just happened to be better than whatever other tournaments were offered at the time?

Also, remember the Vegas 16? That was good for a ROFL

[tower912]

As far as I can tell here's who participated in 52 with their final record (seems like one might be missing):

Le Moyne 8-15
St Francis 20-8
St Joseph's 20-7
Providence 14-9
Siena 24-6
Marquette 12-14
Loyola MD 16-12
Iona 16-10
Gannon 12-13
Scranton 15-14
St Mary's MN 12-11

I see one team with a good record, a couple more with respectable and a whole lot of trash.

This!

WWCD?   


What would Crean do?

[Viper]

I'm an 80s babies, so I definitely lack the context here but I have a question. When people say the NCIT was "up there with the NCAA and NIT as one of the three biggest tournaments", was it really up there where it was comparable to the NIT and NCAA? Or was it a very clear distant third that just happened to be better than whatever other tournaments were offered at the time?

Also, remember the Vegas 16? That was good for a ROFL

At one time, the NIT was significant. NCAA tourney only took 16 teams back-in-day. When MU lost in the NIT title game in the mid-60’s, and won it a few years later, it was definitely a big deal..especially when MU turned down a ncaa bid, then won the NIT. Big!
In the early ‘70’s, Maryland lost the ACC tourney title game, thus denied a ncaa tourney bid despite being a top 5 team nationally. Hence, the NIT had significance.
NCIT? Limited on a national scale in that it was class-type (in this case Catholic schools-only...actually omitting some Catholic schools that had better records than those participating listed in this thread).

[WarriorDad]

I'm an 80s babies, so I definitely lack the context here but I have a question. When people say the NCIT was "up there with the NCAA and NIT as one of the three biggest tournaments", was it really up there where it was comparable to the NIT and NCAA? Or was it a very clear distant third that just happened to be better than whatever other tournaments were offered at the time?

Also, remember the Vegas 16? That was good for a ROFL

There were five tournaments back then, the NCIT was limited in scope in only taking Catholic schools, but was considered a big tournament.  It doesn't have to be distant to the extent Vegas 16 was.  Tournaments like the Vegas 16 were not contemplated back then.  Tournaments were not about money-making ventures to the degree they are now.  The NAIB tournament was another fairly prominent tournament (became the NAIA in 1952) back in the day.

Maybe with the time on my hands (semi-retirement and pandemic stage has some advantages) I will create the NCIT Wikipedia page.  I have never done that and will have to learn how.

[Herman Cain]

I think it would be a good move to put it up in the FiServ. The connection with Tex Winter is reason enough. Also , MU started to have some good teams and players in the 50s so that banner could represent that era in a way.

[harryp]

That tourney was MU's first small step into the shadow of big time basketball. Freshmen were not able to play at that time and basically no one cared about basketball then. The players recruited for that team eventually were on the 53-4  team which beat KY who was perceived as invincible at that time. We then lost to Iowa and didn't make the finals. I saw the MU KY game and I still remember being in 7th heaven down at Evanston.
The rumor at the time that Winter left was that he wanted a $500 raise in his annual salary and MU wouldn't pay it.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

As far as I can tell here's who participated in 52 with their final record (seems like one might be missing):

Le Moyne 8-15
St Francis 20-8
St Joseph's 20-7
Providence 14-9
Siena 24-6
Marquette 12-14
Loyola MD 16-12
Iona 16-10
Gannon 12-13
Scranton 15-14
St Mary's MN 12-11

I see one team with a good record, a couple more with respectable and a whole lot of trash.

This!

I hope LeMoyne's nickname was the Raiders.

[WarriorDad]

That tourney was MU's first small step into the shadow of big time basketball. Freshmen were not able to play at that time and basically no one cared about basketball then. The players recruited for that team eventually were on the 53-4  team which beat KY who was perceived as invincible at that time. We then lost to Iowa and didn't make the finals. I saw the MU KY game and I still remember being in 7th heaven down at Evanston.
The rumor at the time that Winter left was that he wanted a $500 raise in his annual salary and MU wouldn't pay it.

That is right.  It was the beginning of Marquette becoming a player in men's basketball.  Similar remarks I made a few days ago.  An important tournament to build on and NCAA bound only three years later with some big wins in between.  Had not heard that about a raise for Winter.  That $500 then is equivalent to $5000 today.  The Jesuits have been tight with money for years.

[Lennys Tap]

I hope LeMoyne's nickname was the Raiders.

LeMoyne is French for “The Moyne”.

[Billy Hoyle]

I hope LeMoyne's nickname was the Raiders.

The Dolphins, you know, because it’s in Syracuse. It’s the youngest Jesuit college.

[Galway Eagle]

That is right.  It was the beginning of Marquette becoming a player in men's basketball.  Similar remarks I made a few days ago.  An important tournament to build on and NCAA bound only three years later with some big wins in between.  Had not heard that about a raise for Winter.  That $500 then is equivalent to $5000 today.  The Jesuits have been tight with money for years.

Exactly how do you know this to act like you were there? If you're pushing your 70s then you're born in 1950 at best which makes you 2 during this season.

[WarriorDad]

Exactly how do you know this to act like you were there? If you're pushing your 70s then you're born in 1950 at best which makes you 2 during this season.

I wasn't there.  I also wasn't in the European theater during WWII or in the Philippines at that time either, but through conversations with relatives who were one can learn much about history and events. Or by reading, talking to people that were that, including former players.

harryp said essentially the same as my comments.  Ask him if he was there. 

[harryp]

I was present in Evanston in 1954 -- I was an MU student at the time. You might think that that makes me old. I AM OLD!

[Galway Eagle]

I wasn't there.  I also wasn't in the European theater during WWII or in the Philippines at that time either, but through conversations with relatives who were one can learn much about history and events. Or by reading, talking to people that were that, including former players.

harryp said essentially the same as my comments.  Ask him if he was there.

He wasn't being a patronizing a$$ about things he wasn't around for.

[WarriorDad]

I was present in Evanston in 1954 -- I was an MU student at the time. You might think that that makes me old. I AM OLD!

You are not old, you are wise.  My daughter calls me BOOMER.  I’d rather be called that with wisdom and experience than young and think I have all the answers.

Tell us more about Evanston and the early 50’s when the program went from playing at the old gym to the arena in 1955.  Try not to be patronizing to the youngsters. Haha   

[Galway Eagle]

You are not old, you are wise.  My daughter calls me BOOMER.  I’d rather be called that with wisdom and experience than young and think I have all the answers.

Tell us more about Evanston and the early 50’s when the program went from playing at the old gym to the arena in 1955.  Try not to be patronizing to the youngsters. Haha   

Telling a story about something he was around for isn't patronizing. Using age to seem like an authority on topics that you only know about second hand is being a patronizing a$$. So I agree, please HarryP tell stories

[Scoop Snoop]

I was a senior at Marquette in 1970 and my clear recollection (I don't need to do Sudoku to keep my mind sharp) of Al's decision to turn down the NCAA bid and go to the NIT was, certainly for me and I believe for many others, a real downer. We "supported" Al's decision because he was our coach, but that's all. The mood on campus was gloomy. I rarely missed a game while at Marquette so I as tuned in to other rabid student fans. Was the NIT still regarded as a serious tourney? I think so, but to describe it as "Big!" ? I strongly disagree.  Featuring a major team like Maryland a few years later that missed the NCAA and went to the NIT only made it a little more interesting. It was already a poor country cousin to the NCAA. Let's not try to make the NIT championship into more than it was.

[4everwarriors]

Disappointing for sure. We felt we could take down UCLA. As one who was present at the Garden for both the NIT semis and finals, it was a big deal to feel like you owned the basketball capital of the world, even if it was a lesser tourney, hey?

[rocket surgeon]

I was a senior at Marquette in 1970 and my clear recollection (I don't need to do Sudoku to keep my mind sharp) of Al's decision to turn down the NCAA bid and go to the NIT was, certainly for me and I believe for many others, a real downer. We "supported" Al's decision because he was our coach, but that's all. The mood on campus was gloomy. I rarely missed a game while at Marquette so I as tuned in to other rabid student fans. Was the NIT still regarded as a serious tourney? I think so, but to describe it as "Big!" ? I strongly disagree.  Featuring a major team like Maryland a few years later that missed the NCAA and went to the NIT only made it a little more interesting. It was already a poor country cousin to the NCAA. Let's not try to make the NIT championship into more than it was.

yes, but al took a big chance here.  he loses any game, much less a first or 2nd rounder, he looks like a fool.  winning it was shoving it in even further.  then winning the big one they way he did was, well ya'll know the rest of that story

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

yes, but al took a big chance here.  he loses any game, much less a first or 2nd rounder, he looks like a fool.  winning it was shoving it in even further. 

I disagree with this.  It seems like a big deal because it was our team and Al was our coach, but in retrospect it diminished the accomplishments of one his better teams.  That team was Final Four caliber.  Would have loved to see what they would have done against one of the weaker UCLA teams.

But Al was mad and didn't want to go to Texas instead of Dayton. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

At one time, the NIT was significant. NCAA tourney only took 16 teams back-in-day. When MU lost in the NIT title game in the mid-60’s, and won it a few years later, it was definitely a big deal..especially when MU turned down a ncaa bid, then won the NIT. Big!

There were 25 schools in the NCAA tournament.  Not 16.  And it was big only to our fanbase.