MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Big tuna on April 28, 2020, 03:47:19 PM
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The “last dance” shows Tex Winters. In 2002 Marquette celebrated the 1952 national Catholic tournament championship Marquette team and raised the banner at the Bradley Center. Later it was removed and quietly tossed in the garbage!! Bad form!
How about a new banner
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You want a banner for a 12-14 team... really think about that for a second.
Edit: and they went 9-14 in the regular season
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T-Cubed's got da Banner hangin' in his Athens man cave, aina?
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You want a banner for a 12-14 team... really think about that for a second.
Edit: and they went 9-14 in the regular season
Was the banner for winning the Tournament or for having a sub-500 regular season?
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Was the banner for winning the Tournament or for having a sub-500 regular season?
https://gomarquette.com/news/2002/12/10/Marquette_s_1951_52_Team_To_Be_Honored_At_Halftime_Of_Saturday_s_Basketball_Game.aspx
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Was the banner for winning the Tournament or for having a sub-500 regular season?
Three game tournament against st Francis 2x unranked and Iona who care so little their online record don't even go back that far. Its nothing to brag about. At least the NIT has some merit for years
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Three game tournament against st Francis 2x unranked and Iona who care so little their online record don't even go back that far. Its nothing to brag about. At least the NIT has some merit for years
So what does being champions of the tournament have to do with their regular season???
Hang the banner!!!
....make a new one.....then hang it!
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So what does being champions of the tournament have to do with their regular season???
Hang the banner!!!
....make a new one.....then hang it!
Would you be in favor of hanging CBI or CIT banners should we win that?
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Would you be in favor of hanging CBI or CIT banners should we win that?
No....Catholic Tournaments and Alaskan Shootouts only!
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I would wear the bejeezus out of a 1952 National Catholic Tournament Champions t-shirt.
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Would you be in favor of hanging CBI or CIT banners should we win that?
Eagle, with all due respect, the ncit at the time was considered one of the 3 big tournaments at the time. So kept in perspective, the ncit was an accomplishment that would, record aside, be a nice recollection. It would also spur interest to something that might otherwise go unnoticed as it has.
For me, until watching “the last dance” I completely forgot about Tex winter and his contribution to the world of basketball. In retrospect, he was considered a genius behind the scenes. He was like the unsung hero to head basketball coaches in general and Phil Jackson, Michael Jordan, kobe Bryant and the triangle offense in particular. Looking back, I didn’t appreciate that until I saw the documentary. Then I remembered he got his start with MU and took his talent to the next level. What I nice tribute the banner would be for at least Tex and his MU connection.
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Eagle, with all due respect, the ncit at the time was considered one of the 3 big tournaments at the time. So kept in perspective, the ncit was an accomplishment that would, record aside, be a nice recollection. It would also spur interest to something that might otherwise go unnoticed as it has. For me, until watching “the last dance” I completely forgot about Tex winter and his contribution to the world of basketball. In retrospect, he was considered a genius behind the scenes. He was like the unsung hero to head basketball coaches in general and Phil Jackson, Michael Jordan, kobe Bryant and the triangle offense in particular. Looking back, I didn’t appreciate that until I saw the documentary. Then I remembered he got his start with MU and took his talent to the next level. What I nice tribute the banner would be for at least Tex and his MU connection.
Agree it would be a nice tribute for Tex and his MU connection. Am sure the Program had reasons to take it down but do not know what they were. Am not advocating but would anyone favor a 2013 Elite 8 Banner. There is an Elite 8 Banner with the E8 appearances listed in the AL. There is a 2013 BE Champs Banner in Fiserv. My understanding is there is no 2013 E8 Banner since there were so many other MU E8 teams. Which is understandable. But Pros might be Believe other schools have E8 Banners. This is a more recent E8. Not many D1 schools reach E8 often. It is MU’s 2nd E8 since 77. Only BE schools to reach E8 since have been Nova and X. Tangent X has a 2020 NCAA appearance listed on Wikipedia.
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Interesting, because a Xavier at-large bid was definitely not a foregone conclusion.
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Eagle, with all due respect, the ncit at the time was considered one of the 3 big tournaments at the time. So kept in perspective, the ncit was an accomplishment that would, record aside, be a nice recollection. It would also spur interest to something that might otherwise go unnoticed as it has.
For me, until watching “the last dance” I completely forgot about Tex winter and his contribution to the world of basketball. In retrospect, he was considered a genius behind the scenes. He was like the unsung hero to head basketball coaches in general and Phil Jackson, Michael Jordan, kobe Bryant and the triangle offense in particular. Looking back, I didn’t appreciate that until I saw the documentary. Then I remembered he got his start with MU and took his talent to the next level. What I nice tribute the banner would be for at least Tex and his MU connection.
If it was such a big deal there'd be write ups about it, a school like Iona would have it in their record book and a 9-14 school wouldn't have been invited. A quick two page google search of national catholic invitational tournament returns nothing but high school basketball tournaments and st Francis apparently still brags about it. Tex was a b-ball genius but Majerus or Dukiet have more to hang their hat on here than Tex.
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If it was such a big deal there'd be write ups about it, a school like Iona would have it in their record book and a 9-14 school wouldn't have been invited. A quick two page google search of national catholic invitational tournament returns nothing but high school basketball tournaments and st Francis apparently still brags about it. Tex was a b-ball genius but Majerus or Dukiet have more to hang their hat on here than Tex.
i loved rick and believed he could have eventually hung a banner for us. dukiet? not so much. but for 1952 banner? what the hell, it was a banner and it did signify something in our history. it's not like everyone got a trophy, but we beat some of the best at that time.
funny story, my h.s b-ball team was 3-0 at christmas break. we went on to lose the rest of our games and were 3-13 or something going into tournament. proceeded to win 4 straight including the 2 conference co-champs, if we beat slinger at sectional finals, we go to madison with a record of 8-13. we had 2 x conference player of the year, a couple more decent players and a terrible coach. the year before, my junior year we went 0-fer 18 or 20??
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Makes you wonder if 20-30 years from now, people will look at the NIT banner and say "so what?" and stick that thing into storage.
Hang it. It's part of the history.
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i loved rick and believed he could have eventually hung a banner for us. dukiet? not so much. but for 1952 banner? what the hell, it was a banner and it did signify something in our history. it's not like everyone got a trophy, but we beat some of the best at that time.
funny story, my h.s b-ball team was 3-0 at christmas break. we went on to lose the rest of our games and were 3-13 or something going into tournament. proceeded to win 4 straight including the 2 conference co-champs, if we beat slinger at sectional finals, we go to madison with a record of 8-13. we had 2 x conference player of the year, a couple more decent players and a terrible coach. the year before, my junior year we went 0-fer 18 or 20??
Dukiets best year had a higher winning percentage than Winter's best. I'll always take better stats and more wins.
If the argument is "it happened it's a part of our history" then ok I get that. But any argument claiming it's a big tournament or a legit accomplishment I think is wrong.
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Tex's team won the fourth and final NCIT Tournament. While MU had a sub-.500 record before that tourney, the team won that championship, the first in the program's history.
Since the NCIT was discontinued, MU did not get a chance to defend the title.
The university honored the 50th anniversary of that team with the surviving members coming back for the honor.
It is certainly an important part of the program's basketball history, no matter what people thought of that tourney.
Go Warriors!
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Tex's team won the fourth and final NCIT Tournament. While MU had a sub-.500 record before that tourney, the team won that championship, the first in the program's history.
Since the NCIT was discontinued, MU did not get a chance to defend the title.
The university honored the 50th anniversary of that team with the surviving members coming back for the honor.
It is certainly an important part of the program's basketball history, no matter what people thought of that tourney.
Go Warriors!
part of the motivation with hanging a banner is that MU had so few in the BC and adding more provided a better presence for us. They had the National Title banner, the retired numbers banner (I'm trying to remember if there were one or two at the time), and the Al '77 banner, and the list of postseason appearances banner. There was no banner for the 1974 finals that I can recall. Did we have a conference title banner for 1994 and 1997 by 2002?
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You want a banner for a 12-14 team... really think about that for a second.
Edit: and they went 9-14 in the regular season
If Marquette received a bid to the NCAA tournament with a losing record, but won their conference tournament and somehow won the whole thing would you say no NCAA tournament banner?
The banner is for a championship of what was a prestigious tournament at the time. It was also the beginning of MU's push toward basketball importance. Three years later marked the first NCAA bid in the school's history.
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If Marquette received a bid to the NCAA tournament with a losing record, but won their conference tournament and somehow won the whole thing would you say no NCAA tournament banner?
The banner is for a championship of what was a prestigious tournament at the time. It was also the beginning of MU's push toward basketball importance. Three years later marked the first NCAA bid in the school's history.
Different situation. If we win the NCAA tournament we've beaten more than a few ranked teams and top teams. A 4 team tournament against unranked teams that needed to invite a 9-14 team to fill out a field is a major false equivalency to the NCAA tournament. That's why I said would you hang a banner for the CIT or CBI?
And again if it was a prestigious tournament where are the records of it? Seriously, I can't find it mentioned anywhere outside of Wikipedia basketball for St Francis and MU.
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Dukiets best year had a higher winning percentage than Winter's best. I'll always take better stats and more wins.
If the argument is "it happened it's a part of our history" then ok I get that. But any argument claiming it's a big tournament or a legit accomplishment I think is wrong.
Why are you saying it was not a legit accomplishment?
Some of the media comments in reference to other schools winning or participating in that tournament. "His 1949-50 team finished 27-5 and won the very prestigious National Catholic Invitational Tournament title, beating Dukes’ Seton Hall team along the way."
From the Washington Post. "They also won a national championship — the 1951 National Catholic Invitational Tournament, a big-time event in those days. There were NIT bids, in 1954, 1956 and 1963. The 1956 team, in fact, finished fourth in the NIT and reached as high as No. 13 in the Associated Press poll ."
Members here keep saying it ended after Marquette won the title, but the tournament did come back in 1963 for one year under the moniker National Catholic College Tour, but it was considered a revival of the NCIT. Xavier, St. Bonaventure and Creighton participated.
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And again if it was a prestigious tournament where are the records of it? Seriously, I can't find it mentioned anywhere outside of Wikipedia basketball for St Francis and MU.
Because something was big at the time doesn't mean it lives forever, or for that matter records do. How important are sacks in the NFL? Did you know that stats wasn't even a stat in the NFL until 1982. Go back to the 1950's or 1960's and find a bunch of articles or stats on sacks in a game and they do not exist, but the plays were just as important.
From another article: "That year, Siena had an extremely powerful men’s basketball team, as the Indians compiled a 27-5 record, and received a bid to the NCIT – the National Catholic Invitation Tournament, which at the time was considered one of the three major postseason college tournaments, right up there with the NIT and the NCAA tournament."
Part of this is recency bias. We see names like Iona, Siena, St. Francis and put them in 2020 terms, not 1940's or 1950's terms. Some powerful basketball programs back then even if they are not today. Think back to Navy, Army, CCNY and other programs that had their heyday in bygone eras.
1949 Included St. Francis, St. Thomas, Regis, St. Thomas, St. Norbert's, Loyola, St. Benedict's
1950
National Catholic Invitation Tournament, at Albany, N.Y. (Siena College)
[Moved from Baltimore due to Hotel segregation. St. Francis insisted their "Negro" players receive equal accomodations or they wouldn't play in tournament.]
First Round:
3/29 Iona 71 - St. Michael's (Vt.) 55 (Other game: St. Francis (Bk.) 67 - Creighton 66
Semi-Final:
3/30 St. Francis (Bk.) 62 - Iona (N.Y.) 61 (Other semi: Siena 75 - Loras 55)
Consolation game:
4/1 Loras 55 - Iona 52 (Champ.: Siena 57 - St. Francis (Bk.) 50)
1951
National Catholic Invitation Tournament , at Albany, N.Y. (Siena College)
First Round:
3/13 Iona 54 - St. Mark's (Minn.) 52
Quarter-Final:
3/14 Seattle 69 - Iona 67 (2nd g.: Le Moyne 57 - Siena 53)
1952
National Catholic Invitation Tournament, at Troy, N.Y.
First Round:
3/15 Iona 68 - Gannon 52 (other g.- Le Moyne 67 - Providence 63)
Quarter-Final:
3/19 Marquette 66 - Iona 59 (other g.- St. Francis (Pa.) 65 - St. Joseph's (Phil.) 56))
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Why are you saying it was not a legit accomplishment?
Some of the media comments in reference to other schools winning or participating in that tournament. "His 1949-50 team finished 27-5 and won the very prestigious National Catholic Invitational Tournament title, beating Dukes’ Seton Hall team along the way."
From the Washington Post. "They also won a national championship — the 1951 National Catholic Invitational Tournament, a big-time event in those days. There were NIT bids, in 1954, 1956 and 1963. The 1956 team, in fact, finished fourth in the NIT and reached as high as No. 13 in the Associated Press poll ."
Members here keep saying it ended after Marquette won the title, but the tournament did come back in 1963 for one year under the moniker National Catholic College Tour, but it was considered a revival of the NCIT. Xavier, St. Bonaventure and Creighton participated.
Wanna link those sources so I can read up? And again if it was a real big deal someone would have a record book on it. Even Wikipedia, where I can look up random obscure sports tournaments from over 100yrs ago, doesn't list it.
Wow yeah mentioning the 63 revival really makes me buy into it being big time with these powerhouse records:
14-13 Creighton
12-16 Xavier
13-12 St Bonaventure
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Your next post doesn't help either you're just listing scores. I don't need a patronizing lesson of when certain stats started being recorded or that success in college sports is cyclical. Here's some facts:
1952 Iona Basketball doesn't seem to exist. It's not listed on there own athletics records book, not on their Wikipedia, and even the Coach (Jim McDermott) doesn't have the season on his Basketball-reference page. If it was such a big deal it'd be listed. Like how Butler has pre tournament Helms championships listed.
Siena has it listed, Saint Francis does as well (20-8). St Mary's MN participated and was 12-11, Scranton was 15-14. Outside of Siena there's not a single record that was great, one that was decent and three terrible.
Next, none of your rambling answers explain why, if it was such a great tournament back then, they're inviting less than .500 teams like us and Scranton. Answer: because it was the third "best", the actual good teams went to the NCAA and NIT making it essentially the CBI tournament except even less schools to choose from because it was catholic only.
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The 1963 version doesn't mean the version in 1949-1952 are the same. The NIT from 1965 is not the same as the NIT from 1995 either. Times change. If you find my comment patronizing then I apologize. My sense is you haven't been roaming the earth for close to 70 years and using recency bias.
I'm also sensing that you probably do not know much about Helms national championships, but go back 50 years and that is how we measured champions in college football. Most people under the age of 40 or even older have little idea what that even was. Even the UPI, United Press International, had their championship trophy. I believe they don't exist any longer. Things change with time.
You don't find it important, schools did at the time. Washington Post and labeled it as a prestigious, big-time event.
Maybe you should start a wikipedia page as a hobby. In case that didn't come across as patronizing, that remark was and intended to be so. ;)
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The 1963 version doesn't mean the version in 1949-1952 are the same. The NIT from 1965 is not the same as the NIT from 1995 either. Times change. If you find my comment patronizing then I apologize. My sense is you haven't been roaming the earth for close to 70 years and using recency bias.
I'm also sensing that you probably do not know much about Helms national championships, but go back 50 years and that is how we measured champions in college football. Most people under the age of 40 or even older have little idea what that even was. Even the UPI, United Press International, had their championship trophy. I believe they don't exist any longer. Things change with time.
You don't find it important, schools did at the time. Washington Post and labeled it as a prestigious, big-time event.
Maybe you should start a wikipedia page as a hobby. In case that didn't come across as patronizing, that remark was and intended to be so. ;)
So without any answer to my valid points that there was terrible teams in the 63 version you referenced as proof it was prestigious. Nor my fact that at least 3 of the teams in the field in 52 were trash you offer red herring arguments and ramblings to change the topic.
Also if you are sensing I don't know much about helms championships (where I clearly referenced it as a big deal in my post) then i invite you to reread my post or perhaps start doing sudoku to keep that mind busy before it goes completely as you push 70.
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Because something was big at the time doesn't mean it lives forever, or for that matter records do. How important are sacks in the NFL? Did you know that stats wasn't even a stat in the NFL until 1982. Go back to the 1950's or 1960's and find a bunch of articles or stats on sacks in a game and they do not exist, but the plays were just as important.
From another article: "That year, Siena had an extremely powerful men’s basketball team, as the Indians compiled a 27-5 record, and received a bid to the NCIT – the National Catholic Invitation Tournament, which at the time was considered one of the three major postseason college tournaments, right up there with the NIT and the NCAA tournament."
Part of this is recency bias. We see names like Iona, Siena, St. Francis and put them in 2020 terms, not 1940's or 1950's terms. Some powerful basketball programs back then even if they are not today. Think back to Navy, Army, CCNY and other programs that had their heyday in bygone eras.
1949 Included St. Francis, St. Thomas, Regis, St. Thomas, St. Norbert's, Loyola, St. Benedict's
This can't be St. Norbert in DePere right?
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Tex's team won the fourth and final NCIT Tournament. While MU had a sub-.500 record before that tourney, the team won that championship, the first in the program's history.
So the NCIT was held for all of 4 years and invited teams with sub-.500 records, yet people are talking like it was a 'big deal' tournament?
I am all for recognizing significant accomplishments, and I really could use something to be excited about right now, but I'm struggling to get anything more than a 'meh' out of this.
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As far as I can tell here's who participated in 52 with their final record (seems like one might be missing):
Le Moyne 8-15
St Francis 20-8
St Joseph's 20-7
Providence 14-9
Siena 24-6
Marquette 12-14
Loyola MD 16-12
Iona 16-10
Gannon 12-13
Scranton 15-14
St Mary's MN 12-11
I see one team with a good record, a couple more with respectable and a whole lot of trash.
So the NCIT was held for all of 4 years and invited teams with sub-.500 records, yet people are talking like it was a 'big deal' tournament?
I am all for recognizing significant accomplishments, and I really could use something to be excited about right now, but I'm struggling to get anything more than a 'meh' out of this.
This!
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I'm an 80s babies, so I definitely lack the context here but I have a question. When people say the NCIT was "up there with the NCAA and NIT as one of the three biggest tournaments", was it really up there where it was comparable to the NIT and NCAA? Or was it a very clear distant third that just happened to be better than whatever other tournaments were offered at the time?
Also, remember the Vegas 16? That was good for a ROFL
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As far as I can tell here's who participated in 52 with their final record (seems like one might be missing):
Le Moyne 8-15
St Francis 20-8
St Joseph's 20-7
Providence 14-9
Siena 24-6
Marquette 12-14
Loyola MD 16-12
Iona 16-10
Gannon 12-13
Scranton 15-14
St Mary's MN 12-11
I see one team with a good record, a couple more with respectable and a whole lot of trash.
This!
WWCD?
What would Crean do?
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I'm an 80s babies, so I definitely lack the context here but I have a question. When people say the NCIT was "up there with the NCAA and NIT as one of the three biggest tournaments", was it really up there where it was comparable to the NIT and NCAA? Or was it a very clear distant third that just happened to be better than whatever other tournaments were offered at the time?
Also, remember the Vegas 16? That was good for a ROFL
At one time, the NIT was significant. NCAA tourney only took 16 teams back-in-day. When MU lost in the NIT title game in the mid-60’s, and won it a few years later, it was definitely a big deal..especially when MU turned down a ncaa bid, then won the NIT. Big!
In the early ‘70’s, Maryland lost the ACC tourney title game, thus denied a ncaa tourney bid despite being a top 5 team nationally. Hence, the NIT had significance.
NCIT? Limited on a national scale in that it was class-type (in this case Catholic schools-only...actually omitting some Catholic schools that had better records than those participating listed in this thread).
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I'm an 80s babies, so I definitely lack the context here but I have a question. When people say the NCIT was "up there with the NCAA and NIT as one of the three biggest tournaments", was it really up there where it was comparable to the NIT and NCAA? Or was it a very clear distant third that just happened to be better than whatever other tournaments were offered at the time?
Also, remember the Vegas 16? That was good for a ROFL
There were five tournaments back then, the NCIT was limited in scope in only taking Catholic schools, but was considered a big tournament. It doesn't have to be distant to the extent Vegas 16 was. Tournaments like the Vegas 16 were not contemplated back then. Tournaments were not about money-making ventures to the degree they are now. The NAIB tournament was another fairly prominent tournament (became the NAIA in 1952) back in the day.
Maybe with the time on my hands (semi-retirement and pandemic stage has some advantages) I will create the NCIT Wikipedia page. I have never done that and will have to learn how.
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I think it would be a good move to put it up in the FiServ. The connection with Tex Winter is reason enough. Also , MU started to have some good teams and players in the 50s so that banner could represent that era in a way.
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That tourney was MU's first small step into the shadow of big time basketball. Freshmen were not able to play at that time and basically no one cared about basketball then. The players recruited for that team eventually were on the 53-4 team which beat KY who was perceived as invincible at that time. We then lost to Iowa and didn't make the finals. I saw the MU KY game and I still remember being in 7th heaven down at Evanston.
The rumor at the time that Winter left was that he wanted a $500 raise in his annual salary and MU wouldn't pay it.
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As far as I can tell here's who participated in 52 with their final record (seems like one might be missing):
Le Moyne 8-15
St Francis 20-8
St Joseph's 20-7
Providence 14-9
Siena 24-6
Marquette 12-14
Loyola MD 16-12
Iona 16-10
Gannon 12-13
Scranton 15-14
St Mary's MN 12-11
I see one team with a good record, a couple more with respectable and a whole lot of trash.
This!
I hope LeMoyne's nickname was the Raiders.
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That tourney was MU's first small step into the shadow of big time basketball. Freshmen were not able to play at that time and basically no one cared about basketball then. The players recruited for that team eventually were on the 53-4 team which beat KY who was perceived as invincible at that time. We then lost to Iowa and didn't make the finals. I saw the MU KY game and I still remember being in 7th heaven down at Evanston.
The rumor at the time that Winter left was that he wanted a $500 raise in his annual salary and MU wouldn't pay it.
That is right. It was the beginning of Marquette becoming a player in men's basketball. Similar remarks I made a few days ago. An important tournament to build on and NCAA bound only three years later with some big wins in between. Had not heard that about a raise for Winter. That $500 then is equivalent to $5000 today. The Jesuits have been tight with money for years.
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I hope LeMoyne's nickname was the Raiders.
LeMoyne is French for “The Moyne”.
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I hope LeMoyne's nickname was the Raiders.
The Dolphins, you know, because it’s in Syracuse. It’s the youngest Jesuit college.
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That is right. It was the beginning of Marquette becoming a player in men's basketball. Similar remarks I made a few days ago. An important tournament to build on and NCAA bound only three years later with some big wins in between. Had not heard that about a raise for Winter. That $500 then is equivalent to $5000 today. The Jesuits have been tight with money for years.
Exactly how do you know this to act like you were there? If you're pushing your 70s then you're born in 1950 at best which makes you 2 during this season.
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Exactly how do you know this to act like you were there? If you're pushing your 70s then you're born in 1950 at best which makes you 2 during this season.
I wasn't there. I also wasn't in the European theater during WWII or in the Philippines at that time either, but through conversations with relatives who were one can learn much about history and events. Or by reading, talking to people that were that, including former players.
harryp said essentially the same as my comments. Ask him if he was there.
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I was present in Evanston in 1954 -- I was an MU student at the time. You might think that that makes me old. I AM OLD!
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I wasn't there. I also wasn't in the European theater during WWII or in the Philippines at that time either, but through conversations with relatives who were one can learn much about history and events. Or by reading, talking to people that were that, including former players.
harryp said essentially the same as my comments. Ask him if he was there.
He wasn't being a patronizing a$$ about things he wasn't around for.
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I was present in Evanston in 1954 -- I was an MU student at the time. You might think that that makes me old. I AM OLD!
You are not old, you are wise. My daughter calls me BOOMER. I’d rather be called that with wisdom and experience than young and think I have all the answers.
Tell us more about Evanston and the early 50’s when the program went from playing at the old gym to the arena in 1955. Try not to be patronizing to the youngsters. Haha :D
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You are not old, you are wise. My daughter calls me BOOMER. I’d rather be called that with wisdom and experience than young and think I have all the answers.
Tell us more about Evanston and the early 50’s when the program went from playing at the old gym to the arena in 1955. Try not to be patronizing to the youngsters. Haha :D
Telling a story about something he was around for isn't patronizing. Using age to seem like an authority on topics that you only know about second hand is being a patronizing a$$. So I agree, please HarryP tell stories
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I was a senior at Marquette in 1970 and my clear recollection (I don't need to do Sudoku to keep my mind sharp) of Al's decision to turn down the NCAA bid and go to the NIT was, certainly for me and I believe for many others, a real downer. We "supported" Al's decision because he was our coach, but that's all. The mood on campus was gloomy. I rarely missed a game while at Marquette so I as tuned in to other rabid student fans. Was the NIT still regarded as a serious tourney? I think so, but to describe it as "Big!" ? I strongly disagree. Featuring a major team like Maryland a few years later that missed the NCAA and went to the NIT only made it a little more interesting. It was already a poor country cousin to the NCAA. Let's not try to make the NIT championship into more than it was.
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Disappointing for sure. We felt we could take down UCLA. As one who was present at the Garden for both the NIT semis and finals, it was a big deal to feel like you owned the basketball capital of the world, even if it was a lesser tourney, hey?
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I was a senior at Marquette in 1970 and my clear recollection (I don't need to do Sudoku to keep my mind sharp) of Al's decision to turn down the NCAA bid and go to the NIT was, certainly for me and I believe for many others, a real downer. We "supported" Al's decision because he was our coach, but that's all. The mood on campus was gloomy. I rarely missed a game while at Marquette so I as tuned in to other rabid student fans. Was the NIT still regarded as a serious tourney? I think so, but to describe it as "Big!" ? I strongly disagree. Featuring a major team like Maryland a few years later that missed the NCAA and went to the NIT only made it a little more interesting. It was already a poor country cousin to the NCAA. Let's not try to make the NIT championship into more than it was.
yes, but al took a big chance here. he loses any game, much less a first or 2nd rounder, he looks like a fool. winning it was shoving it in even further. then winning the big one they way he did was, well ya'll know the rest of that story
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yes, but al took a big chance here. he loses any game, much less a first or 2nd rounder, he looks like a fool. winning it was shoving it in even further.
I disagree with this. It seems like a big deal because it was our team and Al was our coach, but in retrospect it diminished the accomplishments of one his better teams. That team was Final Four caliber. Would have loved to see what they would have done against one of the weaker UCLA teams.
But Al was mad and didn't want to go to Texas instead of Dayton. ::)
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At one time, the NIT was significant. NCAA tourney only took 16 teams back-in-day. When MU lost in the NIT title game in the mid-60’s, and won it a few years later, it was definitely a big deal..especially when MU turned down a ncaa bid, then won the NIT. Big!
There were 25 schools in the NCAA tournament. Not 16. And it was big only to our fanbase.
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Disappointing for sure. We felt we could take down UCLA. As one who was present at the Garden for both the NIT semis and finals, it was a big deal to feel like you owned the basketball capital of the world, even if it was a lesser tourney, hey?
Back in those days there was 3 networks, Sports Illustrated and the local newspapers. Al's decision got a ton of publicity as the NIT was still very prominent in the sports media world.
Also it should be noted the NCAA field that year was 25 teams. Some conferences had rules only allowing one school to go to a tournament. . So for example , Purdue with the great Rick Mount did not make the NCAA field
The 16 teams that were invited to the NIT were not cream puffs and featured many future NBA/ABA stars. In today's NCAA tournament they all would have been invited.
Army ( Coached by Bobby Knight)
Cincinnati
Duke
Duquesne
Georgetown
Georgia Tech
LSU ( Featured Pete Maravich)
Louisville
Manhattan
Marquette
Massachusetts ( Feature Dr. J)
Miami (OH)
North Carolina ( Feature Charlie Scott)
Oklahoma ( Feature Gar Heard and Clifford Ray)
St. John's ( Featured The Whopper Billy Paultz)
Utah ( Featured Mike Newlin)
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Back in those days there was 3 networks, Sports Illustrated and the local newspapers. Al's decision got a ton of publicity as the NIT was still very prominent in the sports media world.
Also it should be noted the NCAA field that year was 25 teams. Some conferences had rules only allowing one school to go to a tournament. . So for example , Purdue with the great Rick Mount did not make the NCAA field
The 16 teams that were invited to the NIT were not cream puffs and featured many future NBA/ABA stars. In today's NCAA tournament they all would have been invited.
Army ( Coached by Bobby Knight)
Cincinnati
Duke
Duquesne
Georgetown
Georgia Tech
LSU ( Featured Pete Maravich)
Louisville
Manhattan
Marquette
Massachusetts ( Feature Dr. J)
Miami (OH)
North Carolina ( Feature Charlie Scott)
Oklahoma ( Feature Gar Heard and Clifford Ray)
St. John's ( Featured The Whopper Billy Paultz)
Utah ( Featured Mike Newlin)
While clearly the teams were better I feel like it's worth pointing out only Utah and Marquette were ranked of that whole bracket based on
http://collegepollarchive.com/mbasketball/ap/seasons.cfm?seasonid=1970#.XrA9pyVOmEc
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Telling a story about something he was around for isn't patronizing. Using age to seem like an authority on topics that you only know about second hand is being a patronizing a$$. So I agree, please HarryP tell stories
What word would you use to devalue an accomplishment of a group of men for which you saw no value in for any number of reasons, youth likely one of them, in which they were honored at one point of time? Patronizing could be one word.
Lighten up. Maybe I came across that way, but has it dawned on you that maybe some people like harryp or others have seen a more MU hoops and can address first hand or even second hand some information you don't have? Not all the great players or teams suited up in the last 15 years.
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I think one of the irritants to Al was that we had (always) to play a game vs either the (I think) mid America or another mid major to get to the "big" ones. And then it was the SEC champ the 1st night and the Big Ten champ the next nite. We could never win both. In 1954 we played Miami of Ohio. We were 13 down at the half and I thought it was hopeless, but we came back and won. Mainly on the shooting of Bob Walczak. This is all based on memory, so if I make an error, forgive me. The next week we were at Evanston. This was exciting as the NCAA was just something we read about before that. Evanston was within driving distance, so we decided to go. Watching Adolph Rupp and KY was like a dream. When we started, it seemed like every time we scored, KY came down and matched it. Frustrating. Then we got the lead and we actually thought we had a chance to win, it was like being in the really big time for the first time. We never dreamed we would win. Approaching the end of the game it got even better and when we knew it was our victory, I remember throwing my coat high into the air. It was the best 24 hours. Next night we were a little tired and lost to Iowa who had played a very weak Penn State team the night before. Penn State had no one but an excellent center named Jesse Arnell and Iowa beat them easily. Against Iowa we faded in the second half and lost. Next morning we were back to reality. If we had won against Iowa, we would have been in the Final Four, which was not really a big deal like it is now. No TV back then. Fifty-four was an incredible year for me. We lost the first game to MI State by (I think) 19 points. I recall saying to my friends the next day that it looked liked another long sad b-ball season. Then we won our next 22, losing to Notre Dame. I have more memories about that game but I've already said enough.
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I think one of the irritants to Al was that we had (always) to play a game vs either the (I think) mid America or another mid major to get to the "big" ones. And then it was the SEC champ the 1st night and the Big Ten champ the next nite. We could never win both. In 1954 we played Miami of Ohio. We were 13 down at the half and I thought it was hopeless, but we came back and won. Mainly on the shooting of Bob Walczak. This is all based on memory, so if I make an error, forgive me. The next week we were at Evanston. This was exciting as the NCAA was just something we read about before that. Evanston was within driving distance, so we decided to go. Watching Adolph Rupp and KY was like a dream. When we started, it seemed like every time we scored, KY came down and matched it. Frustrating. Then we got the lead and we actually thought we had a chance to win, it was like being in the really big time for the first time. We never dreamed we would win. Approaching the end of the game it got even better and when we knew it was our victory, I remember throwing my coat high into the air. It was the best 24 hours. Next night we were a little tired and lost to Iowa who had played a very weak Penn State team the night before. Penn State had no one but an excellent center named Jesse Arnell and Iowa beat them easily. Against Iowa we faded in the second half and lost. Next morning we were back to reality. If we had won against Iowa, we would have been in the Final Four, which was not really a big deal like it is now. No TV back then. Fifty-four was an incredible year for me. We lost the first game to MI State by (I think) 19 points. I recall saying to my friends the next day that it looked liked another long sad b-ball season. Then we won our next 22, losing to Notre Dame. I have more memories about that game but I've already said enough.
Did you mean 1955? That was our first NCAA berth I think.
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If it was such a big deal there'd be write ups about it, a school like Iona would have it in their record book and a 9-14 school wouldn't have been invited. A quick two page google search of national catholic invitational tournament returns nothing but high school basketball tournaments and st Francis apparently still brags about it. Tex was a b-ball genius but Majerus or Dukiet have more to hang their hat on here than Tex.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Catholic_Invitational_Tournament
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that's puzzling -- I had a close friend at the time who was away at (excuse the expression) Notre Dame, and I clearly recall writing him a letter about it and how it was an encouraging sign about the future of MU b-ball