Where’s the 1952 national catholic league championship banner?

[Big tuna]

The “last dance” shows Tex Winters.  In 2002 Marquette celebrated the 1952 national Catholic tournament championship Marquette team and raised the banner at the Bradley Center.  Later it was removed and quietly tossed in the garbage!!  Bad form!   
How about a new banner

[Galway Eagle]

You want a banner for a 12-14 team... really think about that for a second.

Edit: and they went 9-14 in the regular season

[4everwarriors]

T-Cubed's got da Banner hangin' in his Athens man cave, aina?

[We R Final Four]

You want a banner for a 12-14 team... really think about that for a second.

Edit: and they went 9-14 in the regular season

Was the banner for winning the Tournament or for having a sub-500 regular season?

[Billy Hoyle]

Was the banner for winning the Tournament or for having a sub-500 regular season?

https://gomarquette.com/news/2002/12/10/Marquette_s_1951_52_Team_To_Be_Honored_At_Halftime_Of_Saturday_s_Basketball_Game.aspx

[Galway Eagle]

Was the banner for winning the Tournament or for having a sub-500 regular season?

Three game tournament against st Francis 2x unranked and Iona who care so little their online record don't even go back that far. Its nothing to brag about. At least the NIT has some merit for years

[We R Final Four]

Three game tournament against st Francis 2x unranked and Iona who care so little their online record don't even go back that far. Its nothing to brag about. At least the NIT has some merit for years

So what does being champions of the tournament have to do with their regular season???
Hang the banner!!!
....make a new one.....then hang it!

[Galway Eagle]

So what does being champions of the tournament have to do with their regular season???
Hang the banner!!!
....make a new one.....then hang it!

Would you be in favor of hanging CBI or CIT banners should we win that?

[We R Final Four]

Would you be in favor of hanging CBI or CIT banners should we win that?

No....Catholic Tournaments and Alaskan Shootouts only!

[MUBurrow]

I would wear the bejeezus out of a 1952 National Catholic Tournament Champions t-shirt.

[rocket surgeon]

Would you be in favor of hanging CBI or CIT banners should we win that?

Eagle, with all due respect, the ncit at the time was considered one of the 3 big tournaments at the time. So kept in perspective, the ncit was an accomplishment that would, record aside, be a nice recollection.  It would also spur interest to something that might otherwise go unnoticed as it has.

  For me, until watching “the last dance” I completely forgot about Tex winter and his contribution to the world of basketball.  In retrospect, he was considered a genius behind the scenes. He was like the unsung hero to head basketball coaches in general and Phil Jackson, Michael Jordan, kobe Bryant and the triangle offense in particular. Looking back, I didn’t appreciate that until I saw the documentary.  Then I remembered he got his start with MU and took his talent to the next level. What I nice tribute the banner would be for at least Tex and his MU connection.

[MarquetteMike1977]

Eagle, with all due respect, the ncit at the time was considered one of the 3 big tournaments at the time. So kept in perspective, the ncit was an accomplishment that would, record aside, be a nice recollection.  It would also spur interest to something that might otherwise go unnoticed as it has. For me, until watching “the last dance” I completely forgot about Tex winter and his contribution to the world of basketball.  In retrospect, he was considered a genius behind the scenes. He was like the unsung hero to head basketball coaches in general and Phil Jackson, Michael Jordan, kobe Bryant and the triangle offense in particular. Looking back, I didn’t appreciate that until I saw the documentary.  Then I remembered he got his start with MU and took his talent to the next level. What I nice tribute the banner would be for at least Tex and his MU connection.

Agree it would be a nice tribute for Tex and his MU connection. Am sure the Program had reasons to take it down but do not know what they were. Am not advocating but would anyone favor a 2013 Elite 8 Banner. There is an Elite 8 Banner with the E8 appearances listed in the AL. There is a 2013 BE Champs Banner in Fiserv. My understanding is there is no 2013 E8 Banner since there were so many other MU E8 teams. Which is understandable. But Pros might be Believe other schools have E8 Banners. This is a more recent E8. Not many D1 schools reach E8 often. It is MU’s 2nd E8 since 77. Only BE schools to reach E8 since have been Nova and X. Tangent X has a 2020 NCAA appearance listed on Wikipedia.

[brewcity77]

Interesting, because a Xavier at-large bid was definitely not a foregone conclusion.

[Galway Eagle]

Eagle, with all due respect, the ncit at the time was considered one of the 3 big tournaments at the time. So kept in perspective, the ncit was an accomplishment that would, record aside, be a nice recollection.  It would also spur interest to something that might otherwise go unnoticed as it has.

  For me, until watching “the last dance” I completely forgot about Tex winter and his contribution to the world of basketball.  In retrospect, he was considered a genius behind the scenes. He was like the unsung hero to head basketball coaches in general and Phil Jackson, Michael Jordan, kobe Bryant and the triangle offense in particular. Looking back, I didn’t appreciate that until I saw the documentary.  Then I remembered he got his start with MU and took his talent to the next level. What I nice tribute the banner would be for at least Tex and his MU connection.

If it was such a big deal there'd be write ups about it, a school like Iona would have it in their record book and a 9-14 school wouldn't have been invited. A quick two page google search of national catholic invitational tournament returns nothing but high school basketball tournaments and st Francis apparently still brags about it. Tex was a b-ball genius but Majerus or Dukiet have more to hang their hat on here than Tex.

[rocket surgeon]

If it was such a big deal there'd be write ups about it, a school like Iona would have it in their record book and a 9-14 school wouldn't have been invited. A quick two page google search of national catholic invitational tournament returns nothing but high school basketball tournaments and st Francis apparently still brags about it. Tex was a b-ball genius but Majerus or Dukiet have more to hang their hat on here than Tex.

i loved rick and believed he could have eventually hung a banner for us.  dukiet?  not so much.  but for 1952 banner?  what the hell, it was a banner and it did signify something in our history. it's not like everyone got a trophy, but we beat some of the best at that time. 

   funny story, my h.s b-ball team was 3-0 at christmas break.  we went on to lose the rest of our games and were 3-13 or something going into tournament.  proceeded  to win 4 straight including the 2 conference co-champs,  if we beat slinger at sectional finals, we go to madison with a record of 8-13.  we had 2 x conference player of the year, a couple more decent players and a terrible coach.  the year before, my junior year we went 0-fer 18 or 20??   

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Makes you wonder if 20-30 years from now, people will look at the NIT banner and say "so what?" and stick that thing into storage.

Hang it.  It's part of the history.

[Galway Eagle]

i loved rick and believed he could have eventually hung a banner for us.  dukiet?  not so much.  but for 1952 banner?  what the hell, it was a banner and it did signify something in our history. it's not like everyone got a trophy, but we beat some of the best at that time. 

   funny story, my h.s b-ball team was 3-0 at christmas break.  we went on to lose the rest of our games and were 3-13 or something going into tournament.  proceeded  to win 4 straight including the 2 conference co-champs,  if we beat slinger at sectional finals, we go to madison with a record of 8-13.  we had 2 x conference player of the year, a couple more decent players and a terrible coach.  the year before, my junior year we went 0-fer 18 or 20??

Dukiets best year had a higher winning percentage than Winter's best. I'll always take better stats and more wins.

If the argument is "it happened it's a part of our history" then ok I get that. But any argument claiming it's a big tournament or a legit accomplishment I think is wrong.

[warriorjoe]

Tex's team won the fourth and final NCIT Tournament. While MU had a sub-.500 record before that tourney, the team won that championship, the first in the program's history.

Since the NCIT was discontinued, MU did not get a chance to defend the title.

The university honored the 50th anniversary of that team with the surviving members coming back for the honor.

It is certainly an important part of the program's basketball history, no matter what people thought of that tourney.

Go Warriors!

[Billy Hoyle]

Tex's team won the fourth and final NCIT Tournament. While MU had a sub-.500 record before that tourney, the team won that championship, the first in the program's history.

Since the NCIT was discontinued, MU did not get a chance to defend the title.

The university honored the 50th anniversary of that team with the surviving members coming back for the honor.

It is certainly an important part of the program's basketball history, no matter what people thought of that tourney.

Go Warriors!

part of the motivation with hanging a banner is that MU had so few in the BC and adding more provided a better presence for us.  They had the National Title banner, the retired numbers banner (I'm trying to remember if there were one or two at the time), and the Al '77 banner, and the list of postseason appearances banner. There was no banner for the 1974 finals that I can recall. Did we have a conference title banner for 1994 and 1997 by 2002?

[WarriorDad]

You want a banner for a 12-14 team... really think about that for a second.

Edit: and they went 9-14 in the regular season

If Marquette received a bid to the NCAA tournament with a losing record, but won their conference tournament and somehow won the whole thing would you say no NCAA tournament banner?

The banner is for a championship of what was a prestigious tournament at the time.  It was also the beginning of MU's push toward basketball importance.  Three years later marked the first NCAA bid in the school's history.

[Galway Eagle]

If Marquette received a bid to the NCAA tournament with a losing record, but won their conference tournament and somehow won the whole thing would you say no NCAA tournament banner?

The banner is for a championship of what was a prestigious tournament at the time.  It was also the beginning of MU's push toward basketball importance.  Three years later marked the first NCAA bid in the school's history.

Different situation. If we win the NCAA tournament we've beaten more than a few ranked teams and top teams. A 4 team tournament against unranked teams that needed to invite a 9-14 team to fill out a field is a major false equivalency to the NCAA tournament. That's why I said would you hang a banner for the CIT or CBI?

And again if it was a prestigious tournament where are the records of it? Seriously, I can't find it mentioned anywhere outside of Wikipedia basketball for St Francis and MU.

[WarriorDad]

Dukiets best year had a higher winning percentage than Winter's best. I'll always take better stats and more wins.

If the argument is "it happened it's a part of our history" then ok I get that. But any argument claiming it's a big tournament or a legit accomplishment I think is wrong.

Why are you saying it was not a legit accomplishment?

Some of the media comments in reference to other schools winning or participating in that tournament.  "His 1949-50 team finished 27-5 and won the very prestigious National Catholic Invitational Tournament title, beating Dukes’ Seton Hall team along the way."

From the Washington Post.   "They also won a national championship — the 1951 National Catholic Invitational Tournament, a big-time event in those days. There were NIT bids, in 1954, 1956 and 1963. The 1956 team, in fact, finished fourth in the NIT and reached as high as No. 13 in the Associated Press poll ."


Members here keep saying it ended after Marquette won the title, but the tournament did come back in 1963 for one year under the moniker National Catholic College Tour, but it was considered a revival of the NCIT.   Xavier, St. Bonaventure and Creighton participated.

[WarriorDad]

And again if it was a prestigious tournament where are the records of it? Seriously, I can't find it mentioned anywhere outside of Wikipedia basketball for St Francis and MU.

Because something was big at the time doesn't mean it lives forever, or for that matter records do.  How important are sacks in the NFL?  Did you know that stats wasn't even a stat in the NFL until 1982.  Go back to the 1950's or 1960's and find a bunch of articles or stats on sacks in a game and they do not exist, but the plays were just as important.

From another article: "That year, Siena had an extremely powerful men’s basketball team, as the Indians compiled a 27-5 record, and received a bid to the NCIT – the National Catholic Invitation Tournament, which at the time was considered one of the three major postseason college tournaments, right up there with the NIT and the NCAA tournament."

Part of this is recency bias.  We see names like Iona, Siena, St. Francis and put them in 2020 terms, not 1940's or 1950's terms.  Some powerful basketball programs back then even if they are not today.  Think back to Navy, Army, CCNY and other programs that had their heyday in bygone eras.


1949 Included St. Francis, St. Thomas, Regis, St. Thomas, St. Norbert's, Loyola, St. Benedict's

1950
National Catholic Invitation Tournament, at Albany, N.Y. (Siena College)
[Moved from Baltimore due to Hotel segregation. St. Francis insisted their "Negro" players receive equal accomodations or they wouldn't play in tournament.]

First Round:
3/29 Iona 71 - St. Michael's (Vt.) 55  (Other game: St. Francis (Bk.) 67 - Creighton 66

Semi-Final:
3/30 St. Francis (Bk.) 62 - Iona (N.Y.) 61   (Other semi: Siena 75 - Loras 55)

Consolation game:
4/1  Loras 55 - Iona 52  (Champ.: Siena 57 - St. Francis (Bk.) 50)

1951
National Catholic Invitation Tournament , at Albany, N.Y. (Siena College)

First Round:
3/13 Iona 54 - St. Mark's (Minn.) 52

Quarter-Final:
3/14 Seattle 69 - Iona 67  (2nd g.: Le Moyne 57 - Siena 53)


1952
National Catholic Invitation Tournament, at Troy, N.Y.

First Round:
3/15 Iona 68 - Gannon 52  (other g.- Le Moyne 67 - Providence 63)

Quarter-Final:
3/19 Marquette 66 - Iona 59  (other g.- St. Francis (Pa.) 65 - St. Joseph's (Phil.) 56))

[Galway Eagle]

Why are you saying it was not a legit accomplishment?

Some of the media comments in reference to other schools winning or participating in that tournament.  "His 1949-50 team finished 27-5 and won the very prestigious National Catholic Invitational Tournament title, beating Dukes’ Seton Hall team along the way."

From the Washington Post.   "They also won a national championship — the 1951 National Catholic Invitational Tournament, a big-time event in those days. There were NIT bids, in 1954, 1956 and 1963. The 1956 team, in fact, finished fourth in the NIT and reached as high as No. 13 in the Associated Press poll ."


Members here keep saying it ended after Marquette won the title, but the tournament did come back in 1963 for one year under the moniker National Catholic College Tour, but it was considered a revival of the NCIT.   Xavier, St. Bonaventure and Creighton participated.

Wanna link those sources so I can read up? And again if it was a real big deal someone would have a record book on it. Even Wikipedia, where I can look up random obscure sports tournaments from over 100yrs ago, doesn't list it.

Wow yeah mentioning the 63 revival really makes me buy into it being big time with these powerhouse records:

14-13 Creighton
12-16 Xavier
13-12 St Bonaventure
-----------


Your next post doesn't help either you're just listing scores. I don't need a patronizing lesson of when certain stats started being recorded or that success in college sports is cyclical. Here's some facts:

1952 Iona Basketball doesn't seem to exist. It's not listed on there own athletics records book, not on their Wikipedia, and even the Coach (Jim McDermott) doesn't have the season on his Basketball-reference page. If it was such a big deal it'd be listed. Like how Butler has pre tournament Helms championships listed.

Siena has it listed, Saint Francis does as well (20-8). St Mary's MN participated and was 12-11, Scranton was 15-14. Outside of Siena there's not a single record that was great, one that was decent and three terrible.

Next, none of your rambling answers explain why, if it was such a great tournament back then, they're inviting less than .500 teams like us and Scranton. Answer: because it was the third "best", the actual good teams went to the NCAA and NIT making it essentially the CBI tournament except even less schools to choose from because it was catholic only.

[WarriorDad]

The 1963 version doesn't mean the version in 1949-1952 are the same.   The NIT from 1965 is not the same as the NIT from 1995 either.  Times change.  If you find my comment patronizing then I apologize.  My sense is you haven't been roaming the earth for close to 70 years and using recency bias.

I'm also sensing that you probably do not know much about Helms national championships, but go back 50 years and that is how we measured champions in college football.  Most people under the age of 40 or even older have little idea what that even was.  Even the UPI, United Press International, had their championship trophy.  I believe they don't exist any longer.  Things change with time.

You don't find it important, schools did at the time.  Washington Post and labeled it as a prestigious, big-time event.

Maybe you should start a wikipedia page as a hobby.  In case that didn't come across as patronizing, that remark was and intended to be so.