Senate and WH Agree on Terms of Stimulus Package

[Chili]

Can someone on here explain why the f*ck the cruise lines are getting one penny of US taxpayer money? They're foreign companies. I don't mind that I don't see a single penny (just like I didn't see a single penny of tax savings from the "tax cut") but this is DOGSH!T!!!!!! Porky porky porky. Glad I get to foot the bill of this crap. I'd rather send more money to out of service industry people than to float big boats.

[Jockey]

But is their income impacted?  Are their expenses impacted?  My point is that the stimulus is for people being economically affected as a direct result of the virus. Yes, your disabled person example is poor and their life sucks, but that is a separate issue from what the problem they are trying to solve with the stimulus package.

If you try to solve everyone's problems with this bill, it would never come to vote.

Isn't the stimulus just what it says? A stimulus for the economy?

Yes, it is both. A help for people who have lost income AND a stimulus to get (keep) the economy going.

[GooooMarquette]

Can someone on here explain why the f*ck the cruise lines are getting one penny of US taxpayer money? They're foreign companies. I don't mind that I don't see a single penny (just like I didn't see a single penny of tax savings from the "tax cut") but this is DOGSH!T!!!!!! Porky porky porky. Glad I get to foot the bill of this crap. I'd rather send more money to out of service industry people than to float big boats.

I'm guessing it's because lots of senators like to go on cruises. If not, I'm stumped....

[Dish]

If you had The Cheesecake Factory leading the Rent Strike revolution, kudos to you.

[Chili]

I'm guessing it's because lots of senators like to go on cruises. If not, I'm stumped....

It's mind boggling. I mean if there is a huge demand another company will form to fill that. Let those foreign ones die. They don't fill a vital need the economy like airlines do. When was last business trip scheduled by someone via a cruise?

This is a complete corporate welfare pork sandwich to South Florida for votes. It's disgusting.

[rocky_warrior]

If you had The Cheesecake Factory leading the Rent Strike revolution, kudos to you.

I had to google that - but hah
https://la.eater.com/2020/3/25/21194144/cheesecake-factory-rent-strike-chain-restaurant

[rocky_warrior]

I'm guessing it's because lots of senators like to go on cruises. If not, I'm stumped....

Di$ney $tand$ to lo$e a lot otherwi$e

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Top of head example:

Disabled person, lives alone, has mortgage or rent, utilities, doesn't  pay taxes, no W2, has bills 3 times more than their monthly income to get by. They eat, wear clothes etc need transportation costs basic needs expenses. What about them? Their lives are being greatly disrupted by the virus. I am not being a smart ass but do you spend much time around poor people or disabled people?

Was their social security, medicaid, disability, retirement, pension, etc impacted in the last few weeks? 

Like chick, not trying to be insensitive, but those on fixed incomes should have the same income streams.

Its the bartenders, hairstyles, retail workers, daycare teachers, etc. that have been the most affected and they are the ones that should be getting made whole.

And yes to means testing the lump sum payments.  Yes to helping small businesses with grants, not loans from the SBA.

[Jay Bee]

Isn't the stimulus just what it says? A stimulus for the economy?

Yes, it is both. A help for people who have lost income AND a stimulus to get (keep) the economy going.

Then why am I not getting jack sh1t?

[The Sultan]

Was their social security, medicaid, disability, retirement, pension, etc impacted in the last few weeks? 

Like chick, not trying to be insensitive, but those on fixed incomes should have the same income streams.

Its the bartenders, hairstyles, retail workers, daycare teachers, etc. that have been the most affected and they are the ones that should be getting made whole.

And yes to means testing the lump sum payments.  Yes to helping small businesses with grants, not loans from the SBA.

But everyone who makes under a certain threshold will be made whole (by income or unemployment) AND will receive a stimulus payment.  I think shoot is suggesting that those who don't file taxes should still be receiving the stimulus check.

I think you are mixing up two issues here.

[shoothoops]

Was their social security, medicaid, disability, retirement, pension, etc impacted in the last few weeks? 

Like chick, not trying to be insensitive, but those on fixed incomes should have the same income streams.

Its the bartenders, hairstyles, retail workers, daycare teachers, etc. that have been the most affected and they are the ones that should be getting made whole.

And yes to means testing the lump sum payments.  Yes to helping small businesses with grants, not loans from the SBA.

Nah. Couldn't disagree more. Their cost of living went up on a variety of ways due to COVID-19 in acute fashion.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Nah. Couldn't disagree more. Their cost of living went up on a variety of ways due to COVID-19 in acute fashion.

How?  Genuinely curious.

[Jay Bee]

Nah. Couldn't disagree more. Their cost of living went up on a variety of ways due to COVID-19 in acute fashion.

What about me, buddy?

[shoothoops]

How?  Genuinely curious.

I already posted some of it

No home care during COVID-19. Previously that's covered under Medicaid. Medicare Primary, Medicaid secondary if you are disabled.  Transportation is also limited. Previously this would be covered under Medicaid for some different categories (many medical but some not) Other free transportation not running during the crisis. Daily/weekly programs canceled during the crisis. Some include meals. And so on and so on.

I have hired home health workers (they make $9 an hour, drive far, no bennies, no mileage. I supplement their agency
income out of my pocket. Many are single parents) and agencies for many years. I have coached some kids and teams who's families have a wide variety of challenges. I have spent a lot of time around disabled young adult people, kids, low income Seniors, you name it. I know some low income Seniors that file taxes for exactly one reason only, rental tax breaks to collect a few hundred bucks a year.  I've seen a thing or two in my time.

I lack patience for people who don't live empathy and fairness and just say oh well that sucks or me me me me me what about me. It's one thing to talk the talk and simply say oh well, and go back to wondering if one's portfolio is going to take a temporary hit during a public health crisis where deaths, permanent long term health conditions remain high and the low income continue to get marginalized.

I am certainly not naive when I hear terms such as entitlement programs as if that applies to only poor people and not wealthy people too. Corporate welfare bailouts, trillion dollar wealthy tax cuts. Somehow some have convinced themselves that is somehow different. My own portfolio isn't thrilled with recent events but some things and some people are more important to me and come first. I'm all for a strong economy for everyone, not picking and choosing some over others. These aren't lazy people, bad people, or unlucky people. They have the exact same value as anyone else. Those that think so can take their self absorbed heirarchy elsewhere. We are living in a society where minimum wage hasn't increased in a decade. Cost of living has gone up yearly.

I'm not a Bernie Bro and didn't vote for him but he is 100% on point in this short clip today:

https://twitter.com/People4Bernie/status/1242989219598884865?s=19

[mu_hilltopper]

Here's another question .. I saw that there's $350b for "small business loans for those who don't lay off workers" or some summary.

Why would a small business go into debt to pay unneeded workers?    Grants, I understand, but loans?  Unless you saw a pretty big payoff later, I don't quite get it.

[Jay Bee]

Here's another question .. I saw that there's $350b for "small business loans for those who don't lay off workers" or some summary.

Why would a small business go into debt to pay unneeded workers?    Grants, I understand, but loans?  Unless you saw a pretty big payoff later, I don't quite get it.

What is your definition of 'unneeded workers'?

[MU82]

Senate passed 96-0. House to vote Friday.

[skianth16]

I am certainly not naive when I hear terms such as entitlement programs as if that applies to only poor people and not wealthy people too. Corporate welfare bailouts, trillion dollar wealthy tax cuts. Somehow some have convinced themselves that is somehow different. My own portfolio isn't thrilled with recent events but some things and some people are more important to me and come first. I'm all for a strong economy for everyone, not picking and choosing some over others. These aren't lazy people, bad people, or unlucky people. They have the exact same value as anyone else. Those that think so can take their self absorbed heirarchy elsewhere. We are living in a society where minimum wage hasn't increased in a decade. Cost of living has gone up yearly.

I'm not a Bernie Bro and didn't vote for him but he is 100% on point in this short clip today:

https://twitter.com/People4Bernie/status/1242989219598884865?s=19

It sounds like you do some really important and underappreciated work. So, thank you. You're a big part of why we can all be proud of the MU community. I think some of the frustration you're expressing here is valid, but in the current situation, no fix is perfect. And you can't let perfect get in the way of good.

Thinking through the current scenario where a very significant portion of the population has suddenly become vulnerable, speed has to be a huge priority. Working through all the potential scenarios to ensure 100% coverage would take time that I'm sure many people feel they don't have. For every person left out, there are probably 50 people who really needed to pay rent or buy medicine or groceries. There is a lot of good intent here. To use another colloquialism, we can't miss the forest for the trees in this situation.

And while I'm sure many people will be skeptical of the money going to certain sectors or big businesses, there are a ton of people that could be out of work if big businesses fail or are significantly set back by the current situation. It's easy to just look at big revenue numbers and assume large corporations don't need any help, but without the stimulus, there would probably be a lot of people out of work.

[JWags85]

As someone who is a principal in a small/mid sized business that was hit EXTREMELY hard by the trade war and also had a number of people, including myself, who took substantial pay cuts in late 2019 to keep people employed and the lights on, we've had our global business screech to a halt, many customers flat out tell us they can't/won't pay until after lockdowns, and have no meaningful revenue come in while we're shut down. I'm skeptical of how much we are truly going to be "assisted" and to add insult to injury, I and multiple others did "too well" in 2018 to meet the threshold for stimulus despite coming under in 2019 for various reasons. Corporate taxes hadn't been finished so I and others couldn't file personal yet.

I know I'm not alone, and I'm part of a segment of people that get shouted down with everyone that says we shouldn't care about the stock market and that people caring about the economics are heartless and greedy. It's getting pretty old how cut and dried people are making this out to be. JMHO

[Lighthouse 84]

Here's another question .. I saw that there's $350b for "small business loans for those who don't lay off workers" or some summary.

Why would a small business go into debt to pay unneeded workers?    Grants, I understand, but loans?  Unless you saw a pretty big payoff later, I don't quite get it.

Small businesses need to continue to pay workers so they stay employees and are there when the businesses open up again at full strength.  As I read it, the loans are to be used for rent, payroll and utilities.  Provided the employer maintains the payroll through a certain date (June 30, 2020 was proposeed), the loans become grants.  If they didn't have this available to them, many small businesses would fold, all the employees they have would be looking for work and on the unemployment line, landlords would be after the tenants for defaulting under their leases, lenders would be after the landlords for defaults under their mortgages, etc.   So the $350B in loans will be turned into grants if employers maintain the payroll, keeping everyone happy.  This is huge for many businesses I represent whose owners would otherwise be looking at their employees and deciding which ones to keep and which to layoff.

[Hards Alumni]

Small businesses need to continue to pay workers so they stay employees and are there when the businesses open up again at full strength.  As I read it, the loans are to be used for rent, payroll and utilities.  Provided the employer maintains the payroll through a certain date (June 30, 2020 was proposeed), the loans become grants.  If they didn't have this available to them, many small businesses would fold, all the employees they have would be looking for work and on the unemployment line, landlords would be after the tenants for defaulting under their leases, lenders would be after the landlords for defaults under their mortgages, etc.   So the $350B in loans will be turned into grants if employers maintain the payroll, keeping everyone happy.  This is huge for many businesses I represent whose owners would otherwise be looking at their employees and deciding which ones to keep and which to layoff.

So, as a small business owner, how do I get this cash?  What about my employees that have already filed for unemployment because there has been no work for a week and a half?

[mu_hilltopper]

Provided the employer maintains the payroll through a certain date (June 30, 2020 was proposed), the loans become grants.

Ah, that's the piece I was missing, the loans become grants.  Now it makes sense.


Probably shouldn't call it a loan program .. it's a free money program with strings attached.  (Not that there's anything wrong with that..)

[Lighthouse 84]

So, as a small business owner, how do I get this cash?  What about my employees that have already filed for unemployment because there has been no work for a week and a half?

The original plan proposed by Rubio, which was expected to remain unmodified in the final draft, would be retroactive to March 1, to help bring workers who may have been laid off back onto payrolls.   Here are the key provisions:

-Loans would be immediately available through existing Small Business Administration-certified lenders, including banks, credit unions, and other financial institutions, and SBA would be required to streamline the process to bring additional lenders into the program.

-The Secretary of Treasury would be authorized to expedite the addition of new lenders and make further enhancements to expedite delivery of capital to small employers.

-The size of the loans would be tied to an applicant's average monthly payroll; mortgage, rent, and utility payments; and other debt obligations over the previous year. The maximum loan amount would be $10 million.

-Conditional upon business retaining their employees and payroll levels during the covered period (March 1, 2020, through June 30, 2020), the portion of the loan used to cover payroll and payments on pre-existing debt would be forgiven. Further, employers with tipped employees would receive forgiveness for additional wages paid to such employees during the covered time.

I don't know for sure that none of these provisions was changed in the final draft, but this will be huge for many small businesses.

[The Sultan]

As someone who is a principal in a small/mid sized business that was hit EXTREMELY hard by the trade war and also had a number of people, including myself, who took substantial pay cuts in late 2019 to keep people employed and the lights on, we've had our global business screech to a halt, many customers flat out tell us they can't/won't pay until after lockdowns, and have no meaningful revenue come in while we're shut down. I'm skeptical of how much we are truly going to be "assisted" and to add insult to injury, I and multiple others did "too well" in 2018 to meet the threshold for stimulus despite coming under in 2019 for various reasons. Corporate taxes hadn't been finished so I and others couldn't file personal yet.

I know I'm not alone, and I'm part of a segment of people that get shouted down with everyone that says we shouldn't care about the stock market and that people caring about the economics are heartless and greedy. It's getting pretty old how cut and dried people are making this out to be. JMHO

I think most are saying that in the sort term, worrying first about health is more important than worrying about the economy.  And that the economy would be worse in the long term if we "come back" to early.  Because it's just going to spike the disease up again and we may need to shut down again.

[Hards Alumni]

The original plan proposed by Rubio, which was expected to remain unmodified in the final draft, would be retroactive to March 1, to help bring workers who may have been laid off back onto payrolls.   Here are the key provisions:

-Loans would be immediately available through existing Small Business Administration-certified lenders, including banks, credit unions, and other financial institutions, and SBA would be required to streamline the process to bring additional lenders into the program.

-The Secretary of Treasury would be authorized to expedite the addition of new lenders and make further enhancements to expedite delivery of capital to small employers.

-The size of the loans would be tied to an applicant's average monthly payroll; mortgage, rent, and utility payments; and other debt obligations over the previous year. The maximum loan amount would be $10 million.

-Conditional upon business retaining their employees and payroll levels during the covered period (March 1, 2020, through June 30, 2020), the portion of the loan used to cover payroll and payments on pre-existing debt would be forgiven. Further, employers with tipped employees would receive forgiveness for additional wages paid to such employees during the covered time.

I don't know for sure that none of these provisions was changed in the final draft, but this will be huge for many small businesses.

So, as an employer I have to take a loan in the hopes that I remain in business until June 30?  Why would I take that risk when I can just layoff my people?  I'm not worried about retention because there is no one else that is hiring for their job skill set at the moment.  In this situation, I am taking all of the risk by grabbing these loans, that might turn into grants assuming I can remain in business while generating much lower revenue.

Please tell me if I have this wrong.  Just spit-balling here.