Senate and WH Agree on Terms of Stimulus Package

[jesmu84]

With all due respect, why do you keep hammering on this "bailout" point with incorrect information.  Initial stimulus bill was $2.2T, only $500B was allocated for corporations, and those were loans similar to the ones that were repaid in 2008.  $60B of that for the airlines and air cargo.  $350B was for small businesses and another $250B for unemployment benefits.  Stop framing it like individuals got a pittance while the evil large corporations got bags of money.

And the Fed injecting liquidity into the market is a completely different situation.  There are issues with it as well, but viewing it as the same bucket is like the people who thought the money "saved" by not giving AMZN tax breaks in NYC would then be given to education and public transit.

I don't think large corporations are evil. I also think there is requirement that they receive money.

But, IMO, budgeting requires acknowledgement of income and spending. As a country, we've decided to get money to individuals in the form of a one-time $1200 payment (but not everyone). And, I suppose so far, that's it. I truly don't believe that's enough. That will barely sustain some individuals through 1 month and rent was due a week ago. Multiple payments or freezing spending requirements should be considered as long as distancing is maintained. I think that should be the next step.

My apologies for the presentation of pitting one vs the other. I happen to believe any further stimulus/bailout should be focused on the above.

[JWags85]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/26/business/economy/fed-coronavirus-stimulus.html

Thats not what you said.  And by that metric, sure, the government and the Fed can give everyone $5000...that they will pay back with interest like every company potentially getting "bailout" money from the Fed have to.

Companies are given money with guidelines and specifications on their usage.  Thats going to go much farther than a check.  I can't fathom how people honestly would rather let more businesses fail to give people a few grand more in a lump sum in the short term.

EDIT: I see your follow up.  And I guess as a business principle I look at it differently.  I know my employee salaries.  And its nice to have both, but when you're weighing more business support stimulus vs individual stimulus, allowing those companies to not have to layoff workers, close their doors, end their earning potential... that should be tantamount IMO.

[jesmu84]

Thats not what you said.  And by that metric, sure, the government and the Fed can give everyone $5000...that they will pay back with interest like every company potentially getting "bailout" money from the Fed have to.

Companies are given money with guidelines and specifications on their usage.  Thats going to go much farther than a check.  I can't fathom how people honestly would rather let more businesses fail to give people a few grand more in a lump sum in the short term.

EDIT: I see your follow up.  And I guess as a business principle I look at it differently.  I know my employee salaries.  And its nice to have both, but when you're weighing more business support stimulus vs individual stimulus, allowing those companies to not have to layoff workers, close their doors, end their earning potential... that should be tantamount IMO.

Why not both? I mean, we're in unprecedented times and writing nearly blank checks. So, why not both?

[shoothoops]

https://twitter.com/MarketWatch/status/1248413563649048578?s=19

https://twitter.com/CNBC/status/1248425968529821696?s=19

"Let them fail."

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

https://twitter.com/MarketWatch/status/1248413563649048578?s=19

https://twitter.com/CNBC/status/1248425968529821696?s=19

"Let them fail."

Aw man.  Are you telling me that voodoo economics is actually voodoo economics???

But we all know this will never happen.  The middle and lower class isn't the one making campaign contributions.  Furthermore we have tied the financial health of the country to stock market performance, which is weird.

[JWags85]

Aw man.  Are you telling me that voodoo economics is actually voodoo economics???

But we all know this will never happen.  The middle and lower class isn't the one making campaign contributions.  Furthermore we have tied the financial health of the country to stock market performance, which is weird.

Ive never liked this dude.  He's always been a massive hypocrite to me.  Early exec at Facebook that got incredibly wealthy helping it become a monster, left the company, and says Facebook and social media is wrong and he regrets doing it.  Like if Terry Pegula came out and said he was against shale oil and fracking now as he pushed his sports initiatives.

To his actual point, it would make total sense and be valid for the 2008 crash, but applying it now seems reckless and foolish to me.  You can argue the airlines were acting selfishly in returns to monetization and buybacks, but thats not the reason they are in dire straits.  Hoarding billions to float them through emergencies and this crisis would be terrible economically.  Thinking that letting all these companies, who had their revenues slashed by 75-80% or more, fail will end up benefiting the employees and only hurt Wall St is so beyond stupid. 

I do agree that we tie too much of a company's health and the country's financial situation to the markets, however, there are few things that get me more annoyed than suggesting that the stock market, its health, etc... is only the concern of or beneficial to Wall St and the ultra wealthy.  Ignores 401Ks, IRAs, etc..  My GF works in institutional finance.  Pension funds are REELING. 

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

To his actual point, it would make total sense and be valid for the 2008 crash, but applying it now seems reckless and foolish to me.  You can argue the airlines were acting selfishly in returns to monetization and buybacks, but thats not the reason they are in dire straits.  Hoarding billions to float them through emergencies and this crisis would be terrible economically.  Thinking that letting all these companies, who had their revenues slashed by 75-80% or more, fail will end up benefiting the employees and only hurt Wall St is so beyond stupid. 

I agree that hoarding capital is inefficient.   However in the case of the airlines who have proven to have a low margin business susceptible in two ‘once in a lifetime’ downturns in the past 15 years, we should force them to be capitalized better (like no debt or AA rating better). 

[JWags85]

I agree that hoarding capital is inefficient.   However in the case of the airlines who have proven to have a low margin business susceptible in two ‘once in a lifetime’ downturns in the past 15 years, we should force them to be capitalized better (like no debt or AA rating better).

Again, I view this differently than 2008 cause that was a demon of our own design. But I have absolutely no issues with better structured guidelines for businesses that get “bailout” funding. Good chance to build back better

[MUBurrow]

News today that PPP funds have already been depleted.  My business bank just opened applications for businesses like mine on Monday, had tech issues through late last night (sent me a text at 2:00 am this morning that those were resolved) and now evidently the money is gone.  Anyone else run into issues with their lender not having their crap straight in time to process applications for their customers? 

I have to think there's another round of funding coming for this program because this has been pretty much a mess.

[jesmu84]

News today that PPP funds have already been depleted.  My business bank just opened applications for businesses like mine on Monday, had tech issues through late last night (sent me a text at 2:00 am this morning that those were resolved) and now evidently the money is gone.  Anyone else run into issues with their lender not having their crap straight in time to process applications for their customers? 

I have to think there's another round of funding coming for this program because this has been pretty much a mess.

The good news is that national chains took some of this money.

[JWags85]

News today that PPP funds have already been depleted.  My business bank just opened applications for businesses like mine on Monday, had tech issues through late last night (sent me a text at 2:00 am this morning that those were resolved) and now evidently the money is gone.  Anyone else run into issues with their lender not having their crap straight in time to process applications for their customers? 

I have to think there's another round of funding coming for this program because this has been pretty much a mess.

If you didn%u2019t have an existing relationship with a smaller bank, you were pretty much DOA. We fortunately got funded on Monday, but that%u2019s as because we have a smaller regional bank that we%u2019ve worked closely with over the last 3-4 years on a variety of debt servicing, so we were a priority.

They knew they were gonna be way short last week, but getting any more money for this will be as big of a cluster as the first time around. Way more will tap out before more funds are made available

[Lighthouse 84]

The good news is that national chains took some of this money.

And the bad news is that national chains took some of this money.  Ruth's Chris got $20,000,000 by applying through each of two subsidiaries.  That's a lot of money used by them that many other small businesses could have used. Other publicly traded companies are doing the same thing.   Not saying they didn't go through the process legally, but allowing them to be part of the "small business"  definition for this money?  Personally, I think they shouldn't have been able to do so.

[Hards Alumni]

If you didn%u2019t have an existing relationship with a smaller bank, you were pretty much DOA. We fortunately got funded on Monday, but that%u2019s as because we have a smaller regional bank that we%u2019ve worked closely with over the last 3-4 years on a variety of debt servicing, so we were a priority.

They knew they were gonna be way short last week, but getting any more money for this will be as big of a cluster as the first time around. Way more will tap out before more funds are made available

Same with us.  We had that application filled out and turned in less than an hour after it became available. 

[DegenerateDish]

The stimulus check rollout seems like a gigantic clusterf*ck. One thing that I really wish or hope comes out of this pandemic is how deficient America's digital infrastructure is in 2020.

I get that this is an unprecedented time, and hit like a tsunami with sudden impact, but it's woeful how inept our digital infrastructure is.

I am by no means trying to make this political at all, but America's inability to quickly gather info, keep said info, process it, and deliver is so poor. Yes, there will be mistakes, but people/small businesses really need help right now, and it really sucks to hear people who need these funds trying to cut through red tape right now, or see the same message on the IRS site with really no ability at all to communicate the error to anyone.

[#UnleashSean]

Havent got my check yet.

[Hards Alumni]

The stimulus check rollout seems like a gigantic clusterf*ck. One thing that I really wish or hope comes out of this pandemic is how deficient America's digital infrastructure is in 2020.

I get that this is an unprecedented time, and hit like a tsunami with sudden impact, but it's woeful how inept our digital infrastructure is.

I am by no means trying to make this political at all, but America's inability to quickly gather info, keep said info, process it, and deliver is so poor. Yes, there will be mistakes, but people/small businesses really need help right now, and it really sucks to hear people who need these funds trying to cut through red tape right now, or see the same message on the IRS site with really no ability at all to communicate the error to anyone.

Absolutely agree.  We have been complacent for decades.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

The stimulus check rollout seems like a gigantic clusterf*ck. One thing that I really wish or hope comes out of this pandemic is how deficient America's digital infrastructure is in 2020.

I get that this is an unprecedented time, and hit like a tsunami with sudden impact, but it's woeful how inept our digital infrastructure is.

I am by no means trying to make this political at all, but America's inability to quickly gather info, keep said info, process it, and deliver is so poor. Yes, there will be mistakes, but people/small businesses really need help right now, and it really sucks to hear people who need these funds trying to cut through red tape right now, or see the same message on the IRS site with really no ability at all to communicate the error to anyone.

Both the stimulus and the PPP has been a disaster.  Would have been much easier to have all of the money in the PPP and have companies keep people on the payroll, even if they were furloughed.  Of course, we can't get the PPP to work through the banks either.  But this hodgepodge of unemployment payments(states run the unemployement system, so 50 different sets of rules), stimulus, bailouts, etc. should have been streamlined from the start.

[JWags85]

The stimulus check rollout seems like a gigantic clusterf*ck. One thing that I really wish or hope comes out of this pandemic is how deficient America's digital infrastructure is in 2020.

I get that this is an unprecedented time, and hit like a tsunami with sudden impact, but it's woeful how inept our digital infrastructure is.

I am by no means trying to make this political at all, but America's inability to quickly gather info, keep said info, process it, and deliver is so poor. Yes, there will be mistakes, but people/small businesses really need help right now, and it really sucks to hear people who need these funds trying to cut through red tape right now, or see the same message on the IRS site with really no ability at all to communicate the error to anyone.

Its truly shocking.  I remember using the "Wheres My Refund" and its gotten better but it was the same issue, and its baffling to me, in this day and age, that statuses only update once a day.  Absurd.

Not just the government, I had a discussion yesterday about the banks.  Chase was one of the only major without significant issues.  US Bank, Fifth Third, and PNC all had serious outages, much less smaller regional players.  Talked to my friend who works in the space and he said its to be expected cause the vast majority of non-major (Chase, BoA, Wells Fargo) consumer banks have woefully antiquated technology and systems in that regard.

The PPP I cant even properly verbalize my disgust.  Glad Hards was fortunate like us.  If we had these issues and now the funds were tapped before we recieved, I would be apoplectic.  The EIDL program is an absolute mess too.  Very very few people had success there.  There hasn't been an update to our status in that application stream...since 3/31

[Spotcheck Billy]

Havent got my check yet.

We got ours via direct deposit this morning.

[jesmu84]

Both the stimulus and the PPP has been a disaster.  Would have been much easier to have all of the money in the PPP and have companies keep people on the payroll, even if they were furloughed.  Of course, we can't get the PPP to work through the banks either.  But this hodgepodge of unemployment payments(states run the unemployement system, so 50 different sets of rules), stimulus, bailouts, etc. should have been streamlined from the start.

Agree.

But that would have required the feds to not push responsibility to the individual states. They clearly have preferred that method from the beginning

Btw, I disagree it all should have gone through PPP. I believe it all should have gone direct to individuals with everyone being furloughed that are non-essential.

But, different viewpoints are okay.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Agree.

But that would have required the feds to not push responsibility to the individual states. They clearly have preferred that method from the beginning

Btw, I disagree it all should have gone through PPP. I believe it all should have gone direct to individuals with everyone being furloughed that are non-essential.

But, different viewpoints are okay.

IMO, PPP keeps people on payrolls, keeps their health insurance, keeps them engaged.   Their companies can still communicate with them.  Etc.  Fire someone only due to furlough, you now pay that back to the feds.

Instead,  by doing mass layoffs, it will be chaos when people are trying to get their jobs back.  Didnt like someone, don't have to hire them back.  Companies can shed payroll by not hired experienced people in lower skilled jobs and pay a fraction of what tenured employees were making (not saying that this is a good idea, but companies will do it.) Especially impacting low skill/low wage workers.

And PPP should have been capped.  Companies like Ruth Chris getting $20m is just horrible optics, and unfair to small or mid-sized businesses that dont have a ton of cash or cash equivalents on hand.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

IMO, PPP keeps people on payrolls, keeps their health insurance, keeps them engaged.   Their companies can still communicate with them.  Etc.  Fire someone only due to furlough, you now pay that back to the feds.

Instead,  by doing mass layoffs, it will be chaos when people are trying to get their jobs back.  Didnt like someone, don't have to hire them back.  Companies can shed payroll by not hired experienced people in lower skilled jobs and pay a fraction of what tenured employees were making (not saying that this is a good idea, but companies will do it.) Especially impacting low skill/low wage workers.

And PPP should have been capped.  Companies like Ruth Chris getting $20m is just horrible optics, and unfair to small or mid-sized businesses that dont have a ton of cash or cash equivalents on hand.

Agreed.  It also would have been good if we had addressed the post-2008 paperwork fiasco that has caused banks to manage this in this manner.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Agreed.  It also would have been good if we had addressed the post-2008 paperwork fiasco that has caused banks to manage this in this manner.

Banks mostly run on COBOL, legacy systems dont like change....

[jesmu84]

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/04/21/large-public-companies-are-taking-small-businesses-payroll-loans.html

[jesmu84]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/shaharziv/2020/04/14/why-are-rich-americans-getting-17-million-stimulus-checks/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

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