6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?

[wadesworld]

Throughout your thread he said several times you were misinterpreting/misquoting him.  Yet you continued to drag it out.  Most people understood the sentiment of what he meant.

Yeah and the sentiment continues to be wrong.  Even if his words were misinterpreted or misquoted and he didn't expect 14 straight conference titles or 19 of 20 conference titles, the sentiment was we would be the flagship program in the Big East.  History tells us that it's absurd to expect that out of Marquette, given we've been in 5 (including the old BE and the new BE as separate conferences) different conferences and been affiliated with a conference for 30+ years and we have never once been the flagship program of any of those conferences.  And a number of those conferences were worse than the current BE.  So yes, it's easy to understand why someone would be let down if the expectation was we would be the best program in the conference.

Expecting better than what we've been?  Reasonable.  The flagship program in a conference that includes some very, very strong programs both recently and historically?  Pretty easy to be let down if those are the expectations.

[Elonsmusk]

If someone said at the end of the 2013-2014 season that MU in 6 years, MU would be the 7th place team in aggregate Big East record - most Scoopers would have said no f'in way.

But here we are.  Trailing Creighton, Providence, Seton Hall, Butler, and Xavier.  Rather surprisingly the new adds to the conference have all done better than we have.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Is wojo Otter, Bluto or D-Day?

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Do you ever get tired of making the same arguments over and over?

Like how no one was quoted in the post.  Can ask the question of most people here.

[jesmu84]

Wojo isn't going anywhere and no one is going to change their opinion regardless of argument presented.

Can we all move on now?

[brewcity77]

History tells us that it's absurd to expect that out of Marquette, given we've been in 5 (including the old BE and the new BE as separate conferences) different conferences and been affiliated with a conference for 30+ years and we have never once been the flagship program of any of those conferences.

You expected a top-15 team after Vander left. Hard to believe you would think a program would go from S16/S16/E8 & conference champs, return to the top-15, and then be a middle of the pack team in a lesser league.

You can move goalposts all you like, but the only absurd thing is any Marquette fan saying they expected us to be a second tier team in this league. If lying to yourself now makes you feel better about the state of the program, fine, but no one in blue and gold expected nor would've accepted this considering where we were when the C7 split.

[wadesworld]

You expected a top-15 team after Vander left. Hard to believe you would think a program would go from S16/S16/E8 & conference champs, return to the top-15, and then be a middle of the pack team in a lesser league.

You can move goalposts all you like, but the only absurd thing is any Marquette fan saying they expected us to be a second tier team in this league. If lying to yourself now makes you feel better about the state of the program, fine, but no one in blue and gold expected nor would've accepted this considering where we were when the C7 split.

Who is moving goalposts? You claimed you expected us to be what Nova is (5 conference titles in 6 years) minus "maybe" 2 national titles, Gonzaga (something like 19 conference titles on 21 years), Kentucky (don't have the time to look it up but I'd venture to guess more than 3 conference titles in program history), and Kansas (15 of 16 conference titles). Then when I said that'd be absolutely absurd to expect you backed down and changed it to the best program, but could understand how others might think "second or third best."

We aren't what you expected. We never have been. And chances are we never will be.

[MU82]

We have not won enough under Wojo.

The finishes to the last two seasons were beyond annoying, and those certainly reflect on the coach. One can look at the first as something that just happened -- some guys had injuries, some hit walls, etc. But a second straight collapse? Ugh.

Throw in last year's inability to manage egos -- which is one of every coach's main jobs -- and I feel almost overly generous giving him a C.

All of that said, I am certain he will not be fired this offseason, and I have doubts that even a .500 season would get him fired a year from now, especially if he has another good recruiting class. That's why I refuse to get myself too worked up about it. It's out of my control, and there are plenty of Scoopers who absolutely hate Wojo and would like to see him crushed under a Zamboni. I'll let them keep screaming from the rooftops.

[Lennys Tap]

We were in the Old Big East for 9 seasons. Here are the cumulative conference records in those 9 years of the teams that moved to the New Big East:

Marquette   91-49
Georgetown 91-49
Villanova.    82-58
Seton Hall.  54-86
Providence  49-91
St Johns.    48-92
DePaul.       27-113

In the 3 years preceding the NBE's inception:

Marquette     37-17
Georgetown. 36-18
Villanova       24-30
Seton Hall.    18-36
Providence.   17-37
St Johns.       18-36
DePaul.          6-48

Now here are the conference records of those same teams since the NBE's inception:

Villanova.      103-23
Providence.     70-56
Seton Hall.      66-60
Marquette.      60-66
Georgetown.   51-75
St Johns.        44-82
DePaul.           28-98

Pretty clear a) what reasonable expectations should have been when the NBE began and b) which teams have exceeded, met or underperformed what was reasonable.


 

[5DollarPitcher]

Yeah and the sentiment continues to be wrong.  Even if his words were misinterpreted or misquoted and he didn't expect 14 straight conference titles or 19 of 20 conference titles, the sentiment was we would be the flagship program in the Big East.  History tells us that it's absurd to expect that out of Marquette, given we've been in 5 (including the old BE and the new BE as separate conferences) different conferences and been affiliated with a conference for 30+ years and we have never once been the flagship program of any of those conferences.  And a number of those conferences were worse than the current BE.  So yes, it's easy to understand why someone would be let down if the expectation was we would be the best program in the conference.

Expecting better than what we've been?  Reasonable.  The flagship program in a conference that includes some very, very strong programs both recently and historically?  Pretty easy to be let down if those are the expectations.

I honestly think you're fighting a strawman.

I expected to be top 3 in the conference perennially with occassional big time March success (2 or more wins).  For a program and school like Marquette, so rich in basketball tradition and so dependent on the sport for exposure, that needs to be the expectation. 

Wojo's product is far far far from that.  Therefore, looping back to the point of this thread, you would be hard pressed convincing me Wojo has done better than a D+.  He's not passing.

[MU Buff]

Lenny

It was 8 seasons in the old Big East but the records are correct. Your point remains the same. I thought Georgetown, Marquette, Villanova, and Xavier would be consistent top half finishers.

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny

It was 8 seasons in the old Big East but the records are correct. Your point remains the same. I thought Georgetown, Marquette, Villanova, and Xavier would be consistent top half finishers.

Buff

You are correct. Thanks for the catch.

[PointWarrior]

Reading the other board - serious question, does Marquette pay for Dodd's to be the MU apologist? 

[WarriorDad]

Lenny

It was 8 seasons in the old Big East but the records are correct. Your point remains the same. I thought Georgetown, Marquette, Villanova, and Xavier would be consistent top half finishers.

[MU Buff]

I wish I was as accurate as Carnac...or as funny

[Lennys Tap]

WTF is this even supposed to mean, Chico? 8 or 9 years is neither here nor there. The point is that we were in the OBE with Nova, GTown, SH, Providence, StJ and DePaul for a long time. We tied with GTown for the best record among the group, better than Villanova and much, much better than SH and Providence. Added to that we entered the NBE with the most momentum of any of those teams. But in the NBE, even former BE doormats SH and Providence have outperformed us and the difference between Nova and us is huge. If you're looking for the silver lining, we came in on a par with GTown and they've sucked worse than us - whoopee!

[The Lens]

COVID 19 came at a perfect time for MU & Wojo.  It will cover so many losses.  Now all seat defections will be treated as a bad economy.   

[Warrior-Eagle]

We were in the Old Big East for 9 seasons. Here are the cumulative conference records in those 9 years of the teams that moved to the New Big East:

Marquette   91-49
Georgetown 91-49
Villanova.    82-58
Seton Hall.  54-86
Providence  49-91
St Johns.    48-92
DePaul.       27-113

In the 3 years preceding the NBE's inception:

Marquette     37-17
Georgetown. 36-18
Villanova       24-30
Seton Hall.    18-36
Providence.   17-37
St Johns.       18-36
DePaul.          6-48

Now here are the conference records of those same teams since the NBE's inception:

Villanova.      103-23
Providence.     70-56
Seton Hall.      66-60
Marquette.      60-66
Georgetown.   51-75
St Johns.        44-82
DePaul.           28-98

Pretty clear a) what reasonable expectations should have been when the NBE began and b) which teams have exceeded, met or underperformed what was reasonable.

[Warrior-Eagle]

The momentum from the OBE to the NBE helpful context. My recollection is MU was picked to finish on top in year one of NBE and limped into a 9-9 finish under Buzz. We followed that up with a last place finish and our best player on the court was Matt Carilino. We have been grinding from there. MU, GT, XU, BU, SJU, DU have one thing in common over the last six years versus VU,CU,SH and PU over the same six years which is stability in coaching staff. Just and observation. 

[brewcity77]

We were in the Old Big East for 9 seasons. Here are the cumulative conference records in those 9 years of the teams that moved to the New Big East:

Thanks for that, Lenny. I felt we were the marquee program coming in. Our Big East success, NCAA success, future projections (ranked in 2013-14 & picked to win the league), and the level we were recruiting at certainly indicated we would be the team to beat for the foreseeable future.

Any argument of "but we'd never been that" is silly. Nova had never been that either, yet here we are. Someone had to be and we were in the best position to do so.

[#UnleashSean]

Jesus, this is almost worse then his Jake Arrieta argument.

[panda]

Reading the other board - serious question, does Marquette pay for Dodd's to be the MU apologist?

Yes!

[Silkk the Shaka]

We were in the Old Big East for 9 seasons. Here are the cumulative conference records in those 9 years of the teams that moved to the New Big East:

Marquette   91-49
Georgetown 91-49
Villanova.    82-58
Seton Hall.  54-86
Providence  49-91
St Johns.    48-92
DePaul.       27-113

In the 3 years preceding the NBE's inception:

Marquette     37-17
Georgetown. 36-18
Villanova       24-30
Seton Hall.    18-36
Providence.   17-37
St Johns.       18-36
DePaul.          6-48

Now here are the conference records of those same teams since the NBE's inception:

Villanova.      103-23
Providence.     70-56
Seton Hall.      66-60
Marquette.      60-66
Georgetown.   51-75
St Johns.        44-82
DePaul.           28-98

Pretty clear a) what reasonable expectations should have been when the NBE began and b) which teams have exceeded, met or underperformed what was reasonable.

Perfectly obvious. thank you

[dad's couch]

We were in the Old Big East for 9 seasons. Here are the cumulative conference records in those 9 years of the teams that moved to the New Big East:

Marquette   91-49
Georgetown 91-49
Villanova.    82-58
Seton Hall.  54-86
Providence  49-91
St Johns.    48-92
DePaul.       27-113

In the 3 years preceding the NBE's inception:

Marquette     37-17
Georgetown. 36-18
Villanova       24-30
Seton Hall.    18-36
Providence.   17-37
St Johns.       18-36
DePaul.          6-48

Now here are the conference records of those same teams since the NBE's inception:

Villanova.      103-23
Providence.     70-56
Seton Hall.      66-60
Marquette.      60-66
Georgetown.   51-75
St Johns.        44-82
DePaul.           28-98

Pretty clear a) what reasonable expectations should have been when the NBE began and b) which teams have exceeded, met or underperformed what was reasonable.


Great argument Lenny except one major point you are missing. The teams that are ahead of us in the NBE have KEPT their coaches since coming over from the previous BE even though they were trailing MU. The teams behind us had coaching changes.

[wadesworld]

Jesus, this is almost worse then his Jake Arrieta argument.

Lol yeah, Arrieta is as clean as Will Wade, Sean Miller, and Bill Self.

Nova had over twice as many regular season conference titles in program history before the NBE was formed.  Since Al left, even if you take out their success in the NBE, Villanova has been the far, far superior program to Marquette.

Sorry, but it's very clear that part of the disappointment is too high of expectations for the program.  People expected us to suddenly take a jump to places we haven't been since the 1970s.  It'd be awesome if that happened someday.  Personally, I'm not counting on it.