6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?

[WarriorDad]

Yeah, that's not what your claim was.  You said you expected us to be what Nova actually is or what Gonzaga is to the MWC.  That is far different than being "one of the two or three best teams routinely."

It would've been great to be what you "expected" Marquette to be.  It also would've been a completely unreasonable expectation.  We've been in a total of 4 conferences in the history of the program (5 if you count the NBE and the old BE as separate conferences).  We've been the best program in exactly 0 of those conferences when we were in them.  We have a total of 3 conference titles in 31 seasons of being in a conference.  Why someone would expect us to win 6 in 7 years like Nova or 19 in 20 years like Gonzaga is baffling.

You said it better than I did, but that was my thought as well.  This is a great conference and several of those other conferences we were in were lower quality and we still didn’t win the title.  The fan base has a slightly exaggerated view vs our actual accomplishments historically.

[brewcity77]

Yeah, that's not what your claim was.  You said you expected us to be what Nova actually is or what Gonzaga is to the MWC.  That is far different than being "one of the two or three best teams routinely."

It would've been great to be what you "expected" Marquette to be.  It also would've been a completely unreasonable expectation.  We've been in a total of 4 conferences in the history of the program (5 if you count the NBE and the old BE as separate conferences).  We've been the best program in exactly 0 of those conferences when we were in them.  We have a total of 3 conference titles in 31 seasons of being in a conference.  Why someone would expect us to win 6 in 7 years like Nova or 19 in 20 years like Gonzaga is baffling.

Amazing how you misquote me when you are quoting me. I expected us to be on top of the league more often than not. I expected us to be the marquee program, which of the remaining Big East programs we had been for the past 3 years and better part of our history in the league.

The part you try to disingenuously point out is "IF SOMEONE wants to argue it would be a three team race with Nova and Georgetown, I COULD SEE THAT." There is clearly from context a difference between that and the expectations I had.

I feel there's a lot of narrative shifting between where fans thought we would be and where we are. Just because we're here now doesn't mean anyone thought we would be a second tier team. As I've said before, I don't believe anyone making that claim.

[wadesworld]

Amazing how you misquote me when you are quoting me. I expected us to be on top of the league more often than not. I expected us to be the marquee program, which of the remaining Big East programs we had been for the past 3 years and better part of our history in the league.

The part you try to disingenuously point out is "IF SOMEONE wants to argue it would be a three team race with Nova and Georgetown, I COULD SEE THAT." There is clearly from context a difference between that and the expectations I had.

I feel there's a lot of narrative shifting between where fans thought we would be and where we are. Just because we're here now doesn't mean anyone thought we would be a second tier team. As I've said before, I don't believe anyone making that claim.

Sorry if I misquoted you.  I won't even summarize what you said, I'll just put your entire quote below.  The only thing I see is you saying you expected us to be where Nova is, maybe minus two national titles.  As far as I'm reading, you added Kansas and Kentucky to the list of schools you thought we'd be in the NBE.  And frankly, we've never been that, ever.  And chances are we never will.  So to have that as your expectation, it's no wonder you feel let down.

Now, if you want to back down and say people should've expected us to be one of the two or three best programs, sure.  Nova and Georgetown were certainly in that discussion, even if we had a nice three year run (which is great, but it doesn't just surpass everything else that goes into a program).  Xavier was coming off of 4 Sweet 16s in a 5 year period and had made like 19 of 21 NCAA Tournaments.  Butler had made two national titles in the previous half decade heading into the league and at the time had what looked to be the best young coach in America.

If we're backing off from being the Kansas of the Big 12, Kentucky of the SEC, Nova of the BE, and Gonzaga of the WCC, then we can have the discussion.  That's not what your post said that began the discussion, though.

Where were everyone's expectations in 2014? Villanova was coming off a great season, but they were just as close to calls for Jay Wright to be fired as they were to a national title. Back when Creighton, Butler, and Xavier were nice additions, but still the new kids on the block. When Georgetown was the only other heavy-hitter name in the league and 7 years removed from the second round? When St. John's, Providence, and DePaul were also-rans?

My biggest issue is that when this league was founded, I expected us to be what Villanova has become. Maybe not two national titles in 7 years, but the class of the league. The regular front-runner. The Kansas, Gonzaga, or Kentucky at the top whom everyone else expects to chase.

Were anyone else's expectations that different? Having routinely been near the top of the old Big East, with a Final 4 not that far removed and second weekend runs feeling almost commonplace? At this point of Wojo's career, weren't we supposed to be back in the position we were always supposed to be in when this league was formed?

It's true that Buzz left the program a shambles. It's true that Wojo has generally improved results. It's true that for most programs, these results would be fine. It's true that he's had some defections and injuries that made things tough. But it's also true that we were picked to win this league from the start and looked like the cornerstone of the league when it was reformed in 2013. And we haven't been anywhere close to that, mostly under Wojo's watch.

[brewcity77]

Sorry if I misquoted you.  I won't even summarize what you said, I'll just put your entire quote below.  The only thing I see is you saying you expected us to be where Nova is, maybe minus two national titles.  As far as I'm reading, you added Kansas and Kentucky to the list of schools you thought we'd be in the NBE.  And frankly, we've never been that, ever.  And chances are we never will.  So to have that as your expectation, it's no wonder you feel let down.

Now, if you want to back down and say people should've expected us to be one of the two or three best programs, sure.  Nova and Georgetown were certainly in that discussion, even if we had a nice three year run (which is great, but it doesn't just surpass everything else that goes into a program).  Xavier was coming off of 4 Sweet 16s in a 5 year period and had made like 19 of 21 NCAA Tournaments.  Butler had made two national titles in the previous half decade heading into the league and at the time had what looked to be the best young coach in America.

If we're backing off from being the Kansas of the Big 12, Kentucky of the SEC, Nova of the BE, and Gonzaga of the WCC, then we can have the discussion.  That's not what your post said that began the discussion, though.

By Kentucky, Kansas, and Gonzaga, I was referring to our position in our league. That was clearly spelled out. Yes, I expected us to be the marquee program of this Big East. The later post is adding that I can understand someone thinking we would be one of the marquee programs along with Nova and Georgetown.

No one, no one thought we would be a second tier program in this league. No one thought we would be a middle to bottom team in this league. No one at Marquette and frankly no one outside Marquette.

We were the team to beat in year one and the program to beat when the league was formed. Clearly, we've been beaten in both regards. My issue is that while it seemed we were moving back in that direction the past two years, we now seem to be much further away from that than we were 13 months ago.

[#UnleashSean]

It's pretty clear what brew is saying. But Wades loves to argue.

[wadesworld]

It's pretty clear what brew is saying. But Wades loves to argue.

Yeah, it is clear.  And we've never been what brew thought we'd be.

Thank you for contributing.

[Elonsmusk]

Yeah, it is clear.  And we've never been what brew thought we'd be.

Thank you for contributing.

Feel free to own this: We’ve never been under Wojo what you thought we’d be.

Brew’s perception and expectation was totally fair based on what our program achieved the prior 14 years before Wojo took over.  You actually pretty much assured us the same back in January 2015.

(Recall posting how beautiful it was gonna be once Wojo had all his guys and we’d be trending like Duke under K?)

Funny how your tune has changed due to your man crush underperforming.

[BM1090]

Feel free to own this: We’ve never been under Wojo what you thought we’d be.

Brew’s perception and expectation was totally fair based on what our program achieved the prior 14 years before Wojo took over.  You actually pretty much assured us the same back in January 2015.

(Recall posting how beautiful it was gonna be once Wojo had all his guys and we’d be trending like Duke under K?)

Funny how your tune has changed due to your man crush underperforming.

Wojo has absolutely underperformed. The extent to which he has underperformed is greatly exaggerated.

[Small Orange Soda]

C-/D+.  Would've given him a firm C- but this year's collapse has shown that last year's collapse wasn't all on the Hausers.  He's certainly not a bad coach, but this is a big boy league, and he's a lower tier coach in it.

[WarriorDad]

By Kentucky, Kansas, and Gonzaga, I was referring to our position in our league. That was clearly spelled out. Yes, I expected us to be the marquee program of this Big East. The later post is adding that I can understand someone thinking we would be one of the marquee programs along with Nova and Georgetown.

No one, no one thought we would be a second tier program in this league. No one thought we would be a middle to bottom team in this league. No one at Marquette and frankly no one outside Marquette.

We were the team to beat in year one and the program to beat when the league was formed. Clearly, we've been beaten in both regards. My issue is that while it seemed we were moving back in that direction the past two years, we now seem to be much further away from that than we were 13 months ago.

No one thought we would be second tier the first year in it. Coach Williams picked to win it.  That started us off on bad footing and then the rebuilding from there.  How one starts can set the tone.

Why are you discounting Xavier, Butler, and others when the new league was formed?  Xavier has every right to be an upper tier team claim going in. 

[WarriorPride68]

Wojo is 51-57 in the Big East across 6 seasons without a tourney win. Could be wrong, but I would assume that puts Mu only ahead of cellar dwellers DePaul, St Johns & Gtown over those seasons?

It’s hard to go much higher than C

[Golden Avalanche]

Wojo is 51-57 in the Big East across 6 seasons without a tourney win. Could be wrong, but I would assume that puts Mu only ahead of cellar dwellers DePaul, St Johns & Gtown over those seasons?

It’s hard to go much higher than C

If we're hanging on the 51-57 record it should be noted that he's behind others but not terribly. Willard is under .500 as a coach with only two seasons of more than 10 wins. Cooley is a smidge above .500 but has never won more than 12 games in one season.

Jordan is under .500 at Butler. McDermott is at .550 but only twice has won more than 10 games. Ewing has never had a winning record. Steele and Anderson are just at their start. In this regard, Wojo isn't much different.


Regarding March there isn't much success in the conference. Willard, Cooley, and Jordan have one win each. McDermott has three wins in 25 years of coaching. Anderson has had success but it's been 10-15 years and two programs since that success. Ewing has nothing. Steele has never been there. In that regard, Wojo isn't much different.


I left out Nova/GQ and DePaul/Leitao because it's obvious what they've done.

[MU Buff]

Wojo is 51-57 in the Big East across 6 seasons without a tourney win. Could be wrong, but I would assume that puts Mu only ahead of cellar dwellers DePaul, St Johns & Gtown over those seasons?

It’s hard to go much higher than C

You are correct. It was a tough choice between giving Wojo a C or D grade but I voted D. In my mind he's been in the C-/D+ range.

Team	Record
Villanova	87-21
Xavier	64-44
Butler	60-48
Providence	60-48
Seton Hall	60-48
Creighton	55-53
Marquette	51-57
Georgetown	43-65
St. John's	35-73
DePaul	25-83

[connie]

Wojo has absolutely underperformed. The extent to which he has underperformed is greatly exaggerated.

Eliminate the "greatly" and I'm on board with this.

[Elonsmusk]

If we're hanging on the 51-57 record it should be noted that he's behind others but not terribly. Willard is under .500 as a coach with only two seasons of more than 10 wins. Cooley is a smidge above .500 but has never won more than 12 games in one season.

Jordan is under .500 at Butler. McDermott is at .550 but only twice has won more than 10 games. Ewing has never had a winning record. Steele and Anderson are just at their start. In this regard, Wojo isn't much different.


Regarding March there isn't much success in the conference. Willard, Cooley, and Jordan have one win each. McDermott has three wins in 25 years of coaching. Anderson has had success but it's been 10-15 years and two programs since that success. Ewing has nothing. Steele has never been there. In that regard, Wojo isn't much different.


I left out Nova/GQ and DePaul/Leitao because it's obvious what they've done.

Wow.  This is mind-numbing rationalization and logic.

Didn't realize we were on the same trajectory as Providence and Seton Hall when Wojo took over?

Comparing 6 year Wojo to Anderson, Ewing and Steele?  One in his 1st year, the other his 3rd, and the other 2nd. 

Want to weigh in on next year?  Want to weigh in on the awful finishes to each of the last two seasons? 

[brewcity77]

If we're hanging on the 51-57 record it should be noted that he's behind others but not terribly. Willard is under .500 as a coach with only two seasons of more than 10 wins. Cooley is a smidge above .500 but has never won more than 12 games in one season.

Jordan is under .500 at Butler. McDermott is at .550 but only twice has won more than 10 games. Ewing has never had a winning record. Steele and Anderson are just at their start. In this regard, Wojo isn't much different.


Regarding March there isn't much success in the conference. Willard, Cooley, and Jordan have one win each. McDermott has three wins in 25 years of coaching. Anderson has had success but it's been 10-15 years and two programs since that success. Ewing has nothing. Steele has never been there. In that regard, Wojo isn't much different.


I left out Nova/GQ and DePaul/Leitao because it's obvious what they've done.

I don't disagree, but I think this underscores the problem. Wojo is an average coach. A bit above average as a recruiter, a bit below average as a game coach. Thus far, the average coach has given us average results. Some okay, some a little disappointing, but nothing that makes you excited or completely exasperated.

The question is then what we expect as a program. Is an average program with average results okay? Then Wojo's the guy. But if we want more than average, I don't think he's it.

[MU Buff]

This is our record in 15 years since joining the Big East. 9 years before Wojo (3 Crean, 6 Buzz) and 6 since he became coach. I don't think giving him a D grade for his tenure so far is being harsh. The numbers speak for themselves.

Years	Overall	Big East
2005-14	208-100 (.675)	100-58 (.633)
2014-20	115-81 (.587)	51-57 (.472)
Total:	323-181 (.641)	151-115 (.568)

[5DollarPitcher]

This is our record in 15 years since joining the Big East. 9 years before Wojo (3 Crean, 6 Buzz) and 6 since he became coach. I don't think giving him a D grade for his tenure so far is being harsh. The numbers speak for themselves.

Years	Overall	Big East
2005-14	208-100 (.675)	100-58 (.633)
2014-20	115-81 (.587)	51-57 (.472)
Total:	323-181 (.641)	151-115 (.568)

But but but but we'll never be Kansas or Gonzaga!

[wadesworld]

But but but but we'll never be Kansas or Gonzaga!

You might want to educate yourself if you think the 2005-2014 numbers are anywhere close to what Gonzaga and Kansas have been doing...

[5DollarPitcher]

You might want to educate yourself if you think the 2005-2014 numbers are anywhere close to what Gonzaga and Kansas have been doing...

That's exactly what I'm jabbing at you for, smart guy.  There's a difference between being Kansas/Gonzaga and NOT being utterly mediocre (51-57 in Big East play).

[wadesworld]

That's exactly what I'm jabbing at you for, smart guy.  There's a difference between being Kansas/Gonzaga and NOT being utterly mediocre (51-57 in Big East play).

Read what was quoted, smart guy.  Kansas, Gonzaga, Kentucky, Nova.  I'm not the one who came up with the list, I'm the one who responded to the list.  If somebody expected that kind of success from Marquette then part of the reason they are feeling let down is because their expectations were way too high.  Marquette has been in a conference for 31 years now and never once have they approached close to the level of success in their conference as Kansas, Gonzaga, Kentucky, or Nova have recently.  Even when things were great under Crean/Buzz, they weren't close to that level.  Which is exactly the point I've been making.

[5DollarPitcher]

Read what was quoted, smart guy.  Kansas, Gonzaga, Kentucky, Nova.  I'm not the one who came up with the list, I'm the one who responded to the list.  If somebody expected that kind of success from Marquette then part of the reason they are feeling let down is because their expectations were way too high.  Marquette has been in a conference for 31 years now and never once have they approached close to the level of success in their conference as Kansas, Gonzaga, Kentucky, or Nova have recently.  Even when things were great under Crean/Buzz, they weren't close to that level.  Which is exactly the point I've been making.

Ok...?

The letdown feeling still exists because we have not been Tier 1 (or even remotely close honestly) and debatably not Tier 2 (depending on how you slice it up) of the new Big East.  You're fighting a strawman to make it seem like Wojo has done just fine, but he could have never meet the entitled fanbase's expectations.  This is a classic Projo position I've seen taken by not just you, Petty.

There is an ocean, canyon, stratosphere, and universe of success between Wojo's current results and the strawman you're fighting.  At this moment in time, we have only been decisively better than DePaul, St. John, and Georgetown - the perennial whipping boys of the new Big East (not to mention multiple horrific losses to the aforementioned teams in critical moments during seasons).

The overall point (because I know you have trouble focusing on these) is that Marquette basketball has objectively underperformed against far lower expectations than being the Kansas/Gonzaga of the new Big East.  Therefore you fighting that strawman is not incredibly relevant.

[willie warrior]

This is our record in 15 years since joining the Big East. 9 years before Wojo (3 Crean, 6 Buzz) and 6 since he became coach. I don't think giving him a D grade for his tenure so far is being harsh. The numbers speak for themselves.

Years	Overall	Big East
2005-14	208-100 (.675)	100-58 (.633)
2014-20	115-81 (.587)	51-57 (.472)
Total:	323-181 (.641)	151-115 (.568)

Agreed. Wojo has been abysmal.

[wadesworld]

Ok...?

The letdown feeling still exists because we have not been Tier 1 (or even remotely close honestly) and debatably not Tier 2 (depending on how you slice it up) of the new Big East.  You're fighting a strawman to make it seem like Wojo has done just fine, but he could have never meet the entitled fanbase's expectations.  This is a classic Projo position I've seen taken by not just you, Petty.

There is an ocean, canyon, stratosphere, and universe of success between Wojo's current results and the strawman you're fighting.  At this moment in time, we have only been decisively better than DePaul, St. John, and Georgetown - the perennial whipping boys of the new Big East (not to mention multiple horrific losses to the aforementioned teams in critical moments during seasons).

The overall point (because I know you have trouble focusing on these) is that Marquette basketball has objectively underperformed against far lower expectations than being the Kansas/Gonzaga of the new Big East.  Therefore you fighting that strawman is not incredibly relevant.

Simple. Make that argument to begin with and don’t claim we should be something we never have been. Or continue to get mad because I disagree with what someone is claiming and claim I’m just trying to make Wojo look better than he is. I’m guessing you’ll continue with the latter.

[5DollarPitcher]

Simple. Make that argument to begin with and don’t claim we should be something we never have been. Or continue to get mad because I disagree with what someone is claiming and claim I’m just trying to make Wojo look better than he is. I’m guessing you’ll continue with the latter.

Throughout your thread he said several times you were misinterpreting/misquoting him.  Yet you continued to drag it out.  Most people understood the sentiment of what he meant.