collapse

* Stud of Colorado Game

Tyler Kolek

21 points, 5 rebounds,
11 assists, 1 steal,
40 minutes

2023-24 Season SoG Tally
Kolek11
Ighodaro6
Jones, K.6
Mitchell2
Jones, S.1
Joplin1

'22-23
'21-22 * '20-21 * '19-20
'18-19 * '17-18 * '16-17
'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

2024 Coaching Carousel by Uncle Rico
[Today at 05:12:25 PM]


2024 Transfer Portal by Uncle Rico
[Today at 04:59:27 PM]


2024 NCAA Tournament Thread by Frenns Liquor Depot
[Today at 04:57:21 PM]


Sweet 16 presser by MuMark
[Today at 04:40:13 PM]


Dallas bars tonite by BrewCity83
[Today at 04:40:04 PM]


Where is Marquette? by Dr. Blackheart
[Today at 04:38:52 PM]


10 years after “Done Deal” … It’s Happening! by The Sultan of Semantics
[Today at 03:24:51 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: NC State

Marquette
81
Marquette vs

NC State

Date/Time: Mar 29, 2024, 6:09 pm
TV: CBS
Schedule for 2023-24
Colorado
77

Poll

Too Soon?

A
10 (3.3%)
B
31 (10.4%)
C
149 (49.8%)
D
79 (26.4%)
F
13 (4.3%)
Who cares, we're all going to die (Arby's)
17 (5.7%)

Total Members Voted: 299

Author Topic: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?  (Read 35722 times)

Lighthouse 84

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2982
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2020, 09:03:27 AM »
I am thinking long term.  This change a coach every 5 or 6 years puts this program into a reset and I want to see what Wojo can do with the returning players, the recruits and any other newcomers.  Just how I roll.
I’m definitely in TB’s camp.  Fire Wojo and one or more of the incoming probably bolt.  Get them on campus, see how they do. Then, if the year doesn’t go well and they fire Wojo, the possibility of keeping them is greater than if they never got here. Since they’ll have experienced Real Chili I mean.  Why leave then?
HILLTOP SENIOR SURVEY from 1984 Yearbook: 
Favorite Drinking Establishment:

1. The Avalanche.              7. Major Goolsby's.
2. The Gym.                      8. Park Avenue.
3. The Ardmore.                 9. Mugrack.
4. O'Donohues.                 10. Lighthouse.
5. O'Pagets.
6. Hagerty's.

4everwarriors

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 15995
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2020, 09:23:38 AM »
Oh, have transfers now bin eliminated two, hey?
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

mileskishnish72

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4519
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2020, 09:33:06 AM »
At least I never pined for a program like DePaul. 
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=59473.0

But who would have guessed that DePaul would win the final game of the BET?

Silkk the Shaka

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5376
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2020, 10:31:37 AM »
I am thinking long term.  This change a coach every 5 or 6 years puts this program into a reset and I want to see what Wojo can do with the returning players, the recruits and any other newcomers.  Just how I roll.

That's certainly your prerogative!

But I am expecting to miss the NIT next year. Wojo in general performs to pre-season expectations.

Pre-season kenpom rank (End of season KenPom rank)

2015: 87 (93) no post-season
2016: 53 (97) no post-season
2017: 47 (32) first round NCAA blowout loss
2018: 49 (53) NIT
2019: 29 (33) first round NCAA blowout loss
2020: 18 (31) spiraling towards first round NCAA blowout loss

So... his only season overachieving vs. pre-season kenpom ratings ended in a first round NCAA blowout loss.

And his best comp for next year, the 2016 Ellenson season, was a drastic underperformance ending in no post-season.

Why do I bring this up? T-Rank already put out next year's on-paper rankings. We are rated #80. And yes that includes the incoming freshmen.

I would be shocked if we even make the NIT. Not sure why anyone would expect anything different at this point, there's an ample body of work. The guy just is what he is. No demonstration that he can make a team more than the sum of its parts in six years. Garcia will look awesome at times and we'll drain a bunch of threes against cupcakes and some mediocre competition. Then when the second half of the season comes around the defense will be a sieve and we'll hear about the freshman wall, why are guys missing open shots, we need a point guard, yada yada yada as we lose some winnable games on paper that we desperately need to win and miss the post season altogether. Garcia will go pro after averaging 18 & 8 while shooting a ton of threes, and the cycle of mediocrity will continue. What's the point.

Blecch. Snooze. Wake me up when we get a new coach. I've been an avid fan for 18 years, and I can't bring myself to care about next season. I've traveled to countless games, rearranged schedules & bent over backwards to watch nearly every game no matter the competition, often annoying my wife, family, friends, etc.

Next year I'll watch when it's convenient I guess? Maybe check in on the standings every once in a while? I just can't ignore the evidence. It's bad basketball, and it's disheartening.

5DollarPitcher

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1690
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2020, 11:10:05 AM »
And at this point, as we saw with a loss to DePaul, it's a sample size of one game while the KenPom or NET numbers are looking at that one game PLUS the 30-40 games a team played throughout the same season.  So even if the NoJo guarantee of how our next two games went, we probably would've still been right around 30-35 in KenPom and 25-30 in NET.

But it's no surprise you wouldn't understand that and would think those two results would drop us from 31 to...what, 131?
Nobody cares about KenPom at this point.  Just give us results - any way you do it.

wadesworld

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 17384
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2020, 11:25:35 AM »
Nobody cares about KenPom at this point.  Just give us results - any way you do it.

The season was cancelled.  You won't be getting the results.

It also seems like people do care about KenPom given the response was to a NoJo saying you need to factor in the blowout losses we would've received in the 2 games we won't be playing.
Rocket Trigger Warning (wild that saying this would trigger anyone, but it's the world we live in): Black Lives Matter

Pakuni

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9876
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2020, 11:49:29 AM »
Do you ever get tired of making the same arguments over and over?

PointWarrior

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1887
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2020, 11:50:16 AM »
No surprise you think Kenpom 31 is a major accomplishment for Wojo - hang a banner!    Think of all the Badger top 10 kenpom banners the badgers would have....



And at this point, as we saw with a loss to DePaul, it's a sample size of one game while the KenPom or NET numbers are looking at that one game PLUS the 30-40 games a team played throughout the same season.  So even if the NoJo guarantee of how our next two games went, we probably would've still been right around 30-35 in KenPom and 25-30 in NET.

But it's no surprise you wouldn't understand that and would think those two results would drop us from 31 to...what, 131?

wadesworld

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 17384
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2020, 12:36:20 PM »
No surprise you think Kenpom 31 is a major accomplishment for Wojo - hang a banner!    Think of all the Badger top 10 kenpom banners the badgers would have....

Yeah, never said Kenpom 31 is a major accomplishment for Wojo.  Was pointing out your stupidity in thinking that even had we gotten blown out in the first BET game we had and first NCAA Tournament game we had that there would be this major plummet to our KenPom number.

But good job shifting the goalposts.
Rocket Trigger Warning (wild that saying this would trigger anyone, but it's the world we live in): Black Lives Matter

Elonsmusk

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2262
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2020, 12:48:09 PM »
We should extend Wojo 5 or 6 years. I really want to see what he can do with his own recruits and give him plenty of time to install his culture. Putting pressure on him to win now is really unfair and mean.

I agree with this analysis. Plus he’s a first time head coach and really, this was his first time to coach through a cycle of “his guys.”

5DollarPitcher

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1690
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2020, 12:53:28 PM »
The season was cancelled.  You won't be getting the results.
Like we were getting them anyway. Pay no attention to the 5 years of zero results whatsoever combined with the 6 of 7 game losing streak. THIS was our year to make a run, and we were robbed of it by COVID19. Right, Petty?

Predictable response from a predictable poster.

wadesworld

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 17384
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2020, 12:54:53 PM »
Like we were getting them anyway. Pay no attention to the 5 years of zero results whatsoever combined with the 6 of 7 game losing streak. THIS was our year to make a run, and we were robbed of it by COVID19. Right, Petty?

Predictable response from a predictable poster.

Let me know where any of that was said. Lol. Maybe learn how to read before responding from now on.
Rocket Trigger Warning (wild that saying this would trigger anyone, but it's the world we live in): Black Lives Matter

JamilJaeJamailJrJuan

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 7801
  • Js for days
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2020, 12:56:20 PM »
Any grade other than a C is either way too critical, or a gift.  I think we ended up right about (maybe 1 less BE win and 1 more non-con win) where most reasonable people thought we'd be after the Hauser's departed. 
I would take the Rick SLU program right now.

5DollarPitcher

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1690
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2020, 12:58:29 PM »
Let me know where any of that was said. Lol. Maybe learn how to read before responding from now on.
You said - “The season was cancelled. You won’t be getting any results”.

That implies that the first sentence begat the second. Or did you just sandwich two independent facts next to each other in some type of word vomit?

wadesworld

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 17384
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2020, 01:03:37 PM »
You said - “The season was cancelled. You won’t be getting any results”.

That implies that the first sentence begat the second. Or did you just sandwich two independent facts next to each other in some type of word vomit?

It implies that literally there will not be a single college basketball result for the rest of the 2019-2020 season.  Not for Marquette, not for Kansas, not for the DePaul program you want us to be, not for Cardinal Stritch, not for UWM, not for UWGB, nobody.  Results will not occur this season.
Rocket Trigger Warning (wild that saying this would trigger anyone, but it's the world we live in): Black Lives Matter

5DollarPitcher

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1690
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #65 on: March 13, 2020, 01:07:27 PM »
It implies that literally there will not be a single college basketball result for the rest of the 2019-2020 season.  Not for Marquette, not for Kansas, not for the DePaul program you want us to be, not for Cardinal Stritch, not for UWM, not for UWGB, nobody.  Results will not occur this season.
So you’re just stating a fact? Not using it as an excuse for Wojo’s mediocre regular season and lack of results in the first 5 years of his career?

Ok, I’m on board. Thanks for clarifying.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #66 on: March 13, 2020, 06:27:04 PM »
I went with a C. Going into this season I was probably more of a B- to C+ and now am more of C to C-.

The interesting thing about Wojo is that the results have not been bad. 2 years of rebuild, NCAA, NIT, NCAA x2 is not a bad first 6 years. We can argue until we are blue in the face about whether or not they are "good" but they certainly aren't fireable results.

The problem with Wojo isn't the what, it's the how. Two consecutive late season collapses is a humongous red flag. I'd argue that if Wojo pulled an Ed Cooley and had a disastrous start to the season followed by a torrid run that took us from outside the NIT to 7-10 seed, we would have a lot less angst. Both paths result in the same finish but one certainly feels better than the other.
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 26360
  • Warning-This poster may trigger thin skinned users
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #67 on: March 13, 2020, 08:42:22 PM »
Where were everyone's expectations in 2014? Villanova was coming off a great season, but they were just as close to calls for Jay Wright to be fired as they were to a national title. Back when Creighton, Butler, and Xavier were nice additions, but still the new kids on the block. When Georgetown was the only other heavy-hitter name in the league and 7 years removed from the second round? When St. John's, Providence, and DePaul were also-rans?

My biggest issue is that when this league was founded, I expected us to be what Villanova has become. Maybe not two national titles in 7 years, but the class of the league. The regular front-runner. The Kansas, Gonzaga, or Kentucky at the top whom everyone else expects to chase.

Were anyone else's expectations that different? Having routinely been near the top of the old Big East, with a Final 4 not that far removed and second weekend runs feeling almost commonplace? At this point of Wojo's career, weren't we supposed to be back in the position we were always supposed to be in when this league was formed?

It's true that Buzz left the program a shambles. It's true that Wojo has generally improved results. It's true that for most programs, these results would be fine. It's true that he's had some defections and injuries that made things tough. But it's also true that we were picked to win this league from the start and looked like the cornerstone of the league when it was reformed in 2013. And we haven't been anywhere close to that, mostly under Wojo's watch.
This space reserved for a 2024 National Championship celebration banner.

wadesworld

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 17384
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #68 on: March 13, 2020, 08:49:57 PM »
Where were everyone's expectations in 2014? Villanova was coming off a great season, but they were just as close to calls for Jay Wright to be fired as they were to a national title. Back when Creighton, Butler, and Xavier were nice additions, but still the new kids on the block. When Georgetown was the only other heavy-hitter name in the league and 7 years removed from the second round? When St. John's, Providence, and DePaul were also-rans?

My biggest issue is that when this league was founded, I expected us to be what Villanova has become. Maybe not two national titles in 7 years, but the class of the league. The regular front-runner. The Kansas, Gonzaga, or Kentucky at the top whom everyone else expects to chase.

Were anyone else's expectations that different? Having routinely been near the top of the old Big East, with a Final 4 not that far removed and second weekend runs feeling almost commonplace? At this point of Wojo's career, weren't we supposed to be back in the position we were always supposed to be in when this league was formed?

It's true that Buzz left the program a shambles. It's true that Wojo has generally improved results. It's true that for most programs, these results would be fine. It's true that he's had some defections and injuries that made things tough. But it's also true that we were picked to win this league from the start and looked like the cornerstone of the league when it was reformed in 2013. And we haven't been anywhere close to that, mostly under Wojo's watch.

We should be better than what we have been, but we have 3 conference championships in the history of the program (and one was a three way split). Yes, some of our history includes having been an independent. But that’s still 3 championships in like 30 years. If you expected us to be what Nova has been maybe part of the problem was your expectations. We aren’t that and we haven’t been that since Al left.
Rocket Trigger Warning (wild that saying this would trigger anyone, but it's the world we live in): Black Lives Matter

brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 26360
  • Warning-This poster may trigger thin skinned users
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2020, 08:51:38 PM »
We should be better than what we have been, but we have 3 conference championships in the history of the program (and one was a three way split). Yes, some of our history includes having been an independent. But that’s still 3 championships in like 30 years. If you expected us to be what Nova has been maybe part of the problem was your expectations. We aren’t that and we haven’t been that since Al left.

When I say what Nova has been, I mean the team clearly at the top of the conference. Can anyone honestly say that wasn't their expectation when this new league was formed?

No one expected Nova to morph into a blue blood, not even the craziest dreamers at the Finn, but I think it's safe to say we all expected the top dog in the Big East would reside in Milwaukee more often than not.
This space reserved for a 2024 National Championship celebration banner.

wadesworld

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 17384
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2020, 08:53:21 PM »
When I say what Nova has been, I mean the team clearly at the top of the conference. Can anyone honestly say that wasn't their expectation when this new league was formed?

No one expected Nova to morph into a blue blood, not even the craziest dreamers at the Finn, but I think it's safe to say we all expected the top dog in the Big East would reside in Milwaukee more often than not.

I did not expect that. I thought Nova and Georgetown would be the two best programs in the conference and us, Xavier, and Butler (thought Stevens would eventually leave, but not as soon as he did) would make up the second tier.
Rocket Trigger Warning (wild that saying this would trigger anyone, but it's the world we live in): Black Lives Matter

brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 26360
  • Warning-This poster may trigger thin skinned users
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #71 on: March 13, 2020, 09:02:48 PM »
Villanova went 24-30 in the past three years of the old Big East and there were Villanova fans that wanted him fired in 2012. I'd be curious to see anyone that expected Villanova to regularly be ahead of us in the pecking order when this league reformed. I honestly don't believe that person existed on this board.
This space reserved for a 2024 National Championship celebration banner.

wadesworld

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 17384
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #72 on: March 13, 2020, 09:07:24 PM »
Villanova went 24-30 in the past three years of the old Big East and there were Villanova fans that wanted him fired in 2012. I'd be curious to see anyone that expected Villanova to regularly be ahead of us in the pecking order when this league reformed. I honestly don't believe that person existed on this board.

They had also gone to the Final Four in 2009, been a 2 seed in 2010, and a 1 seed in 2006. Anybody who wanted Jay Wright fired one 2012 is an idiot. They are and have been a much better program than Marquette this entire century.
Rocket Trigger Warning (wild that saying this would trigger anyone, but it's the world we live in): Black Lives Matter

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12220
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #73 on: March 13, 2020, 09:41:07 PM »
They had also gone to the Final Four in 2009, been a 2 seed in 2010, and a 1 seed in 2006. Anybody who wanted Jay Wright fired one 2012 is an idiot. They are and have been a much better program than Marquette this entire century.

1. Totally agree that anyone who wanted Jay Wright fired in 2012 (or any other year for that matter) is an idiot.

2. Not sure what you mean by the “entire century”. Since the break up of the old Big East (Buzz’s last year and 6 years of Wojo) they’ve been light years better than MU. And for TC’s years they were better, too.

3. But in Buzz’s first 5 years (the last 5 years of the old, great Big East) we were 60-30 in the conference. Villanova was 50-40 and Georgetown was 53-37. And we were thought to be the best team entering the NBE’s inaugural year. Yes, Vander Blue and Jamal McKey left unexpectedly and we were caught short, but I don’t see a reason why anyone would have thought we went into the New Big East with an inferior program to Villanova or Georgetown.

brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 26360
  • Warning-This poster may trigger thin skinned users
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: 6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?
« Reply #74 on: March 13, 2020, 09:41:47 PM »
And we were a 3-seed in 2012 & 2013 while sharing the 2013 Big East title, which I'd argue was more relevant than their 2006. Like I said, I don't believe any Marquette fan thought we were a second tier team in this league when it was formed.
This space reserved for a 2024 National Championship celebration banner.

 

feedback