2020 Coaching Carousel

[GoldenWarrior11]

Personally, I would rank WF ahead of: Clemson, VT, BC, Miami, Georgia Tech and FSU.  Wake has a 15k home arena, incredibly strong recruiting area, strong history and is a basketball-first athletics program (basketball is better at Wake than football).  Wake has more NCAA tournament appearances than each of those programs.  Miami and FSU have been good in recent seasons, but before Larranaga and Hamilton came around, neither program ever amounted to much (and both schools are clearly football-first programs).  VT accomplished little-to-nothing before Buzz came along.  BC was average at best in the Big East, and has fallen to the bottom of the ACC.  Virginia and Wake have the exact same number of NCAA Tournament appearances, which would probably surprise quite a few on this board. 

Bzdelik and Manning were both very poor fits at Wake, which is why Wake was very poor this decade.

[Herman Cain]

I think Steve Forbes is an excellent hire for Wake Forest. Forbes has a track record of winning and competing at the highest level in the conferences he coached at.  Southern Conference has 3-4 good teams every year so its not a sure thing to be a winner there.

Wake has a lot going for it. Desirable school and nice campus , member of the ACC and the money to support the program.  I believe Forbes will make the transition from opportunistic recruiting which is the norm at a place like ETSU, to a more conventional approach .

While Wake has fallen relatively speaking over the course of its last two coaches, I don't think the obstacles to moving more toward the mid level of the ACC are insurmountable. Their football team has made a bowl appearance four years in a row and is on an uptrend. That football momentum brings a lot of school spirit which will eventually accrue to the basketball team when it starts performing well.

[Viper]

Wake is going to fight Danny Manning over what he is owed, so they many save some cash that way

...possibly I missed it, but has there been a list of transgressions of DM recently posted that would play in favor of Wake withholding $ they are otherwise contracted to pay?

[The Sultan]

...possibly I missed it, but has there been a list of transgressions of DM recently posted that would play in favor of Wake withholding $ they are otherwise contracted to pay?

They didn't say.  What schools have been doing is threatening to fire coaches "for cause" as a negotiating tactic, and if necessary, finding some nitpicky violation as a reason.  Forcing the coach to file suit.  All to save $$$.

With a $15 million buy out, it probably makes sense financially for Wake to do this.  Ethically is another matter.

[Silkk the Shaka]

I think Steve Forbes is an excellent hire for Wake Forest. Forbes has a track record of winning and competing at the highest level in the conferences he coached at.  Southern Conference has 3-4 good teams every year so its not a sure thing to be a winner there.

Wake has a lot going for it. Desirable school and nice campus , member of the ACC and the money to support the program.  I believe Forbes will make the transition from opportunistic recruiting which is the norm at a place like ETSU, to a more conventional approach .

While Wake has fallen relatively speaking over the course of its last two coaches, I don't think the obstacles to moving more toward the mid level of the ACC are insurmountable. Their football team has made a bowl appearance four years in a row and is on an uptrend. That football momentum brings a lot of school spirit which will eventually accrue to the basketball team when it starts performing well.

I don't mean this in a negative way, just observation. A lot of times your posts read like a Patrick Bateman music review from American Psycho. Intentional?

[Uncle Rico]

...possibly I missed it, but has there been a list of transgressions of DM recently posted that would play in favor of Wake withholding $ they are otherwise contracted to pay?

I apologize for not quite tweeting but I believe it was Jeff Goodman who said Wake was looking to recoup some of that money over not hitting certain criteria.  Not sure what that means but that's what he tweeted.  Fluffy is correct, it's a money saving tactic that probably gets settled before going to court.

[Uncle Rico]

Wake is an interesting job.  Is it a good job or bad job?  I don't know.  I do know it'll take the right coach to succeed there.  I think Skip Prosser could have found a way to win consistently there.  It's about the coach and Forbes is a pretty good coach.  Wake isn't ETSU, though, and he'll have to change the type of kids he recruits.  I think he's highly motivated but he's definitely chumming on shark-infested waters

[Newsdreams]

I don't mean this in a negative way, just observation. A lot of times your posts read like a Patrick Bateman music review from American Psycho. Intentional?

Well, what do you expect from Herman Cain

[MU82]

Here's a column from the unfortunately-named Luke DeCock about the very subject we had been discussing: Steve Forbes' reliance on JUCOs, and what it means for Wake Forest:

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/luke-decock/article242397351.html

Excerpts:

There's a leap of faith on Wake Forest's part that Forbes can recruit elite high-school talent and build his program that way. Which is another way to say: Forbes is a coach you'd hire in a heartbeat somewhere other than the smallest private school among the Power 5 conferences, not that Forbes thinks it's an issue.

"On first blush, people might say, 'He recruits high school kids, transfers, JUCOs, internationals, maybe he does or doesn't fit recruiting-wise,'" Forbes told the News & Observer in a telephone conversation Thursday. "I disagree. I can recruit anybody. I've proven it throughout my career."

But if it's a gamble on Wake Forest's part, it's a gamble that's certainly worth taking, given the dire state of the program after a decade with Jeff Bzdelik and Danny Manning and without a single winning record in the ACC.

Off the court, he's affable, quotable and personable — more heir to Dave Odom and Skip Prosser in that respect than Bzdelik or Manning. ... Based on his East Tennessee State persona, Forbes understands that intrinsically.

"That's just who I am," Forbes said. "Very approachable. I don't have all the answers, but I like to make fun of myself. When I went to ETSU five years ago, they had five years previously of not very good basketball. Just OK. But they had tradition: eight NCAA appearances and a passionate fan base. They just needed somebody to excite them again, spark some hope, win some games and play a style of play people want to go see."

That's exactly what Wake Forest needs, so it's just the roster-building that's hanging out there, and it's going to require an abrupt departure from past practice. Forbes coached eight all-SoCon players in his five seasons at ETSU. Two were high school recruits he inherited from the previous regime. Two were his own high school recruits. Three were junior-college transfers. One was a graduate transfer. He once described his recruiting strategy as "guys from the Land of Misfit Toys."

Wake Forest doesn't typically do things that way ... few junior-college players are going to meet Wake's admissions standards. For this to work, Forbes is going to have to walk away from the quick-fix JUCOs that enabled him to keep East Tennessee State on top of the Southern Conference year after year while he tries to rebuild Wake Forest from the ground up.

It's the one question mark about a hire that checks all of the other boxes.

[The Lens]

It never ceases to amaze me how institutions will look down on Jucos but celebrate bringing in McDonald's All Americans who plan on never staying more than 1 to 2 years. 

[The Sultan]

It never ceases to amaze me how institutions will look down on Jucos but celebrate bringing in McDonald's All Americans who plan on never staying more than 1 to 2 years. 

They are different.  In the the case of Jucos, they were likley non-qualifiers and may have more issues with credit transfer and/or struggle in a four year environment.  One and dones are qualifying students, who will likely leave, but may end up staying.  Or they may graduate at a different time.

[TedBaxter]

They are different.  In the the case of Jucos, they were likley non-qualifiers and may have more issues with credit transfer and/or struggle in a four year environment.  One and dones are qualifying students, who will likely leave, but may end up staying.  Or they may graduate at a different time.

Exactly.  Buzz recruited qualifiers like Fulce, Butler and DJO while Buycks was recruited early enough to take or retake classes that transferred.  Crowder had to work his butt off to get the credits to enroll. 

[Galway Eagle]

Exactly.  Buzz recruited qualifiers like Fulce, Butler and DJO while Buycks was recruited early enough to take or retake classes that transferred.  Crowder had to work his butt off to get the credits to enroll.

For the record TJ Taylor and Jameel McKay were also recruits if you're listing all the jucos. But my understanding is there is debate whether crowder really had enough credits

[The Sultan]

For the record TJ Taylor and Jameel McKay were also recruits if you're listing all the jucos. But my understanding is there is debate whether crowder really had enough credits

Taylor was originally a qualifier who started his career at Oklahoma.  McKay commited early like Buycks did.

[Galway Eagle]

Taylor was originally a qualifier who started his career at Oklahoma.  McKay commited early like Buycks did.

Thanks didn't remember the situation of either just that they were on campus

[The Lens]

I understand everything that goes into it, the path to graduation etc.  IMO there's a way to figure it out, especially if you're OK having a Burger Boy only on campus until late March his freshman year.  The Jucos of the world seem much more willing and able to graduate (with help) than your Jabari's, Kyrie's & Henry E's of the world. 

[brewcity77]

I understand everything that goes into it, the path to graduation etc.  IMO there's a way to figure it out, especially if you're OK having a Burger Boy only on campus until late March his freshman year.  The Jucos of the world seem much more willing and able to graduate (with help) than your Jabari's, Kyrie's & Henry E's of the world.

The thing is, for better or worse, it's not about graduating, it's just about the "path to graduation" you mention. It's easier to have a fully qualified one-and-done at the right point of the path for their class because they only need two semesters. For a JUCO, you're usually talking about someone who may be behind from the jump because of different requirements or how credits transfer.

I've mentioned it before, but I came to Marquette with a 2-year degree from the UW system (Waukesha). I was told all my credits would transfer. Almost all did, but some that I expected to go towards my major came in as electives and many of my classes were knocked down a level and seen as intro even though they weren't. That's from a system Marquette regularly works with and contributed to me getting the last 2 years of my bachelor's in 3 years (as did me not wanting 18-credit semesters, but it would've been easier had I gone to another UW school).

I can only imagine it's harder to get students on that track when it's a less familiar, out of state program and often with less reliable educational systems.

[Billy Hoyle]

Here's a column from the unfortunately-named Luke DeCock about the very subject we had been discussing: Steve Forbes' reliance on JUCOs, and what it means for Wake Forest:

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/luke-decock/article242397351.html

Excerpts:

There's a leap of faith on Wake Forest's part that Forbes can recruit elite high-school talent and build his program that way. Which is another way to say: Forbes is a coach you'd hire in a heartbeat somewhere other than the smallest private school among the Power 5 conferences, not that Forbes thinks it's an issue.

"On first blush, people might say, 'He recruits high school kids, transfers, JUCOs, internationals, maybe he does or doesn't fit recruiting-wise,'" Forbes told the News & Observer in a telephone conversation Thursday. "I disagree. I can recruit anybody. I've proven it throughout my career."

But if it's a gamble on Wake Forest's part, it's a gamble that's certainly worth taking, given the dire state of the program after a decade with Jeff Bzdelik and Danny Manning and without a single winning record in the ACC.

Off the court, he's affable, quotable and personable — more heir to Dave Odom and Skip Prosser in that respect than Bzdelik or Manning. ... Based on his East Tennessee State persona, Forbes understands that intrinsically.

"That's just who I am," Forbes said. "Very approachable. I don't have all the answers, but I like to make fun of myself. When I went to ETSU five years ago, they had five years previously of not very good basketball. Just OK. But they had tradition: eight NCAA appearances and a passionate fan base. They just needed somebody to excite them again, spark some hope, win some games and play a style of play people want to go see."

That's exactly what Wake Forest needs, so it's just the roster-building that's hanging out there, and it's going to require an abrupt departure from past practice. Forbes coached eight all-SoCon players in his five seasons at ETSU. Two were high school recruits he inherited from the previous regime. Two were his own high school recruits. Three were junior-college transfers. One was a graduate transfer. He once described his recruiting strategy as "guys from the Land of Misfit Toys."

Wake Forest doesn't typically do things that way ... few junior-college players are going to meet Wake's admissions standards. For this to work, Forbes is going to have to walk away from the quick-fix JUCOs that enabled him to keep East Tennessee State on top of the Southern Conference year after year while he tries to rebuild Wake Forest from the ground up.

It's the one question mark about a hire that checks all of the other boxes.

but wades and Keefe said that's not true.  Hmmm....

[Billy Hoyle]

The thing is, for better or worse, it's not about graduating, it's just about the "path to graduation" you mention. It's easier to have a fully qualified one-and-done at the right point of the path for their class because they only need two semesters. For a JUCO, you're usually talking about someone who may be behind from the jump because of different requirements or how credits transfer.

I've mentioned it before, but I came to Marquette with a 2-year degree from the UW system (Waukesha). I was told all my credits would transfer. Almost all did, but some that I expected to go towards my major came in as electives and many of my classes were knocked down a level and seen as intro even though they weren't. That's from a system Marquette regularly works with and contributed to me getting the last 2 years of my bachelor's in 3 years (as did me not wanting 18-credit semesters, but it would've been easier had I gone to another UW school).

I can only imagine it's harder to get students on that track when it's a less familiar, out of state program and often with less reliable educational systems.

The problem with JUCO's and transferring to a four year like Marquette and other private/religious schools is that those schools have requirements that are not offered at a JUCO (Theology, Philosophy, other specific courses that are part of a core curriculum). So when a student transfers most of their credits will transfer but they still have outstanding requirements for graduation (as you did) on top of the remaining credits. So, while a student entering as a freshman may need 128 credits to graduate to MU (that was the requirement when I was there) it may actually take 140 for a JUCO or other transfer to graduate due to not every transferrable class going towards graduation requirements.  Someone may bring in 58 credits but actually need 84 at MU to graduate.

JUCO's have been pretty good about making sure kids are taking the proper classes to meet transfer requirements. The NCAA has severely limited the number of PE courses one can transfer for eligibility and JUCO's have academic advisors for D1 bound student-athletes to make sure they're meeting the transfer requirements to get them eligible when they do transfer. However, even with that it may be easier for them to go to UWM or UIC than MU or DePaul and be in track for graduating on-time.

[wadesworld]

but wades and Keefe said that's not true.  Hmmm....

I did? I don't think I ever said a word about Jucos and Wake Forrest. If I did please share the post, I'd love to see it.

[brewcity77]

The problem with JUCO's and transferring to a four year like Marquette and other private/religious schools is that those schools have requirements that are not offered at a JUCO (Theology, Philosophy, other specific courses that are part of a core curriculum). So when a student transfers most of their credits will transfer but they still have outstanding requirements for graduation (as you did) on top of the remaining credits. So, while a student entering as a freshman may need 128 credits to graduate to MU (that was the requirement when I was there) it may actually take 140 for a JUCO or other transfer to graduate due to not every transferrable class going towards graduation requirements.

I was aware of the credit requirements when I came in, what surprised me was that as a communications major, my previous journalism classes were all converted to general education electives & many of the English courses I took were downgraded (I was an English minor). The one that got me the most was Shakespeare; I was told I needed a Shakespeare class for my minor so I pointed to the two Shakespeare classes, one poetry and one plays, that I took through UWW that were both the hundred level equivalent of the course MU wanted me to take, which turned out to be a less thorough review of classes I had already taken.

Regardless, bottom line, there are a lot more impediments to getting transfers caught up on the path to graduation than a one-and-done freshman that can get by on electives.

[The Sultan]

I was aware of the credit requirements when I came in, what surprised me was that as a communications major, my previous journalism classes were all converted to general education electives & many of the English courses I took were downgraded (I was an English minor). The one that got me the most was Shakespeare; I was told I needed a Shakespeare class for my minor so I pointed to the two Shakespeare classes, one poetry and one plays, that I took through UWW that were both the hundred level equivalent of the course MU wanted me to take, which turned out to be a less thorough review of classes I had already taken.

Regardless, bottom line, there are a lot more impediments to getting transfers caught up on the path to graduation than a one-and-done freshman that can get by on electives.

That's more of a Marquette problem than anything else.  I have heard of other students transfering into Marquette who have had similar issues.  And its kind of ridiculous.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

That's more of a Marquette problem than anything else.  I have heard of other students transfering into Marquette who have had similar issues.  And its kind of ridiculous.

I've heard a lot of stories about having trouble with getting MU to accept transfer credits. In high school, I took some language classes at the University of Minnesota for college credit. It took me a year of bargaining and arguing with Marquette before they accepted the credits.

[Lennys Tap]

That's more of a Marquette problem than anything else.  I have heard of other students transfering into Marquette who have had similar issues.  And its kind of ridiculous.

Jae Crowder.

[Galway Eagle]

Jae Crowder.

A little different seeing as one of his schools wasn't accredited