COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")

[MU82]

But the good news is "it affects virtually nobody."

[rocky_warrior]

But the good news is "it affects virtually nobody."

Disagreed.  My sister works for a senior care facility.  About 30% of their patients families don't need to worry about paying the facility in 2021!

[jesmu84]

It's important to note that weld county sits right beside boulder county.  That's like Idaho vs California, and Idaho residents needing to get sent to CA for healthcare.  So I get the ideological differences, but we all need to take care of each other.

Do we though? At what point do we force people to reap what they sow?

[tower912]

I completely reject that philosophy.   Right now, the virus is everywhere    I caught it because we had two house fires in one night and I was mingling with civilians and other firefighters without a surgical mask for the only time in months.   Or I caught it at the dentist 36 hours later.   

This isn't some morality test.

[jesmu84]

I completely reject that philosophy.   Right now, the virus is everywhere    I caught it because we had two house fires in one night and I was mingling with civilians and other firefighters without a surgical mask for the only time in months.   Or I caught it at the dentist 36 hours later.   

This isn't some morality test.

I understand that.

But why is it everywhere?

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I hope you really aren't advocating for this.  I understand the urge, but it is essentially advocating for the do nothing policy we have....which is a tragedy unfolding week by week.

[tower912]

Because it is a very powerful, very communicable virus.    And Americans have yet to take the necessary steps to control it.   But that is not a reason to withhold care.


As a matter of fact, your argument is dangerously close to the argument Kushner made back in April.    The 'it is only happening in blue states so we won't do anything' argument.      And if any argument you make can be compared to an argument that anyone from the current administration made, it is a crap argument. 

[The Sultan]

Do we though? At what point do we force people to reap what they sow?

That is a completely immoral point of view.

Furthermore, I know many people who have taken all sorts of precautions who have gotten this.  Let's not act like its just the morons who are the problem here.

[jesmu84]

That is a completely immoral point of view.

Furthermore, I know many people who have taken all sorts of precautions who have gotten this.  Let's not act like its just the morons who are the problem here.

Sure. But there's a difference between those who take precautions vs the morons

[The Sultan]

Sure. But there's a difference between those who take precautions va the morons

Well its not that black and white of course.  And "loving one's neighbor" does not have an "except for the morons" clause.

[jesmu84]

I hope you really aren't advocating for this.  I understand the urge, but it is essentially advocating for the do nothing policy we have....which is a tragedy unfolding week by week.

That's not what I was suggesting.

[jesmu84]

Well its not that black and white of course.  And "loving one's neighbor" does not have an "except for the morons" clause.

Of course.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

That's not what I was suggesting.

Then you should be more clear, because on its face your suggestion does not sound great from a policy or moral/ethical standpoint. 

[The Lens]

I completely reject that philosophy.   Right now, the virus is everywhere    I caught it because we had two house fires in one night and I was mingling with civilians and other firefighters without a surgical mask for the only time in months.   Or I caught it at the dentist 36 hours later.   

This isn't some morality test.

Curious about hose civilian interactions.  Were you wearing any mask?  Were they?  I can certainly appreciate that given your circumstances at a house fire things get chaotic and you would be exposed for periods. 

[MUBurrow]

Because it is a very powerful, very communicable virus.    And Americans have yet to take the necessary steps to control it.   But that is not a reason to withhold care.

For what its worth, the argument is not about withholding care, its about allocating care.  There is no more care to be had. Jesmu's point is about allocating that scarce resource to folks who have not selfishly or intentionally put themselves in a position to need it.

[GooooMarquette]

Whether we like it or not, we are all in this together.

As for making people reap what they sow, even if you get past the moral dimensions of such a policy, contact tracers are overwhelmed in many places so we don't often know where someone got the virus. Even if we did, there are many 'good' people who do the right thing most of the time, but might slip up once (because they are human, after all) and then contract the virus. Or maybe they don't get the virus the day they slip up, but they catch it when they didn't - they are wearing a mask and suddenly encounter someone who isn't, and the maskless person gives them the virus. There are just too many variables to know for sure and make such a policy 'work.'

[tower912]

Curious about hose civilian interactions.  Were you wearing any mask?  Were they?  I can certainly appreciate that given your circumstances at a house fire things get chaotic and you would be exposed for periods.

I was not, and that is my point.    First interactions with civilians without a surgical mask in months.    But, walking out of fires and taking off your facepiece, there really is not an opportunity to put on a surgical mask.    Probably should have been more diligent during the clean up phase, picking up hoses, etc.    Like normal, the citizenry came out to watch.    And wanted to talk to us as we were cleaning up.   

[SERocks]

Because it is a very powerful, very communicable virus.

I still think we don't know something about the communicability of this virus.  I know of at least three families where a member got the virus and the others did not.  Living in the same house.  In one case sharing a bed for a few nights prior to confirmation of covid.  These things do not make sense.  (No I am not downplaying this virus at all, just really wonder what it is we are missing.  There is more to learn.)

[Warriors4ever]

I shared the post to show how frustrated people are getting with the places proudly declaring that they don't believe in mandating collective measures, for example. I really really hope we don't have to make that kind of decision.
Heidi Stevens, a Chicago Tribune columnist, wrote about contracting Covid. She has no idea how she got it, and the rest of her family did not get infected.

[injuryBug]

I still think we don't know something about the communicability of this virus.  I know of at least three families where a member got the virus and the others did not.  Living in the same house.  In one case sharing a bed for a few nights prior to confirmation of covid.  These things do not make sense.  (No I am not downplaying this virus at all, just really wonder what it is we are missing.  There is more to learn.)

completely agree.  I have heard of 4 families with similar situations.  Then 2 others that did everything by the book and everyone in the house got it except for the middle school child in both cases.

Really makes you think how a 15 minute conversation with someone can spread the virus but living with someone cannot?  This is one crazy virus

[The Sultan]

I believe this has been researched.  That certain people, most likely due to their viral load, do most of the spreading.  That numerous people who get the disease and show symptoms seemingly don't spread it at all.

[jesmu84]

For what its worth, the argument is not about withholding care, its about allocating care.  There is no more care to be had. Jesmu's point is about allocating that scarce resource to folks who have not selfishly or intentionally put themselves in a position to need it.

You said it better. Thanks.

And maybe withholding of that care isn't necessary. But don't smokers or other high-risk personal behavior increase health insurance premiums?

So perhaps we should charge more for care for those who intentionally don't take precautions?

And, no, I don't know how you'd collect that information.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I agree there is something to be learned about super spreaders.  If we could find a way to identify them or a test that detects their high viral load it would crush this thing very quickly. 

[forgetful]

I still think we don't know something about the communicability of this virus.  I know of at least three families where a member got the virus and the others did not.  Living in the same house.  In one case sharing a bed for a few nights prior to confirmation of covid.  These things do not make sense.  (No I am not downplaying this virus at all, just really wonder what it is we are missing.  There is more to learn.)

I believe this has been researched.  That certain people, most likely due to their viral load, do most of the spreading.  That numerous people who get the disease and show symptoms seemingly don't spread it at all.

This is part of it. Another aspect is some of these cases are anecdotal without all the data one needs to make a rational analysis. An example of related to SERocks. I know a similar family, very close contact with a "contagious" family member where they "never got it," had negative tests to prove. Then later they got an antibody test out of curiosity. Turned out they got it at some point. Whether that was when the family member was sick, and false positive tests, or they were the one who infected their partner (asymptomatic), or they simply had it awhile earlier...who knows.

Bottom line is there was an explanation. There are a lot of viable explanations, each case is likely different.

[pbiflyer]

Whether we like it or not, we are all in this together.

But we are not. ~40% of the poppy has said screw you and your restrictions. We are doing what we want.
And the rest of us are paying the price.
I have no issues with putting those folks at the end of the care line.