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Author Topic: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")  (Read 1085488 times)

jesmu84

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #600 on: March 09, 2020, 07:22:32 PM »
If we don't have the test kits, then no epidemic.


Hards Alumni

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rocket surgeon

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #602 on: March 09, 2020, 08:01:59 PM »
thought i posted this earlier-as recent as saturday, 3/7 was able to order kleenex germ wipe tissues. 8  packs of 48.  allowed me to get 2 so i got 768 wipes for $44.00 or roughly .05-.06 per wipe.  supposed to arrive 3/9-3/16.  they haven't yet come today, but not going to hold my breath

along the same lines, spoke to my sullivan-schein rep-she said they do not gouge during times like these, but they have limits on orders for infection control stuff like masks.  although i haven't checked the prices, but we can only order 3 boxes of level 3.  i never thought of asking her how often and what  larger offices do.   i've known her a long time, so i've taken her word for it.  what i am going to do?  shop around? 

here's a real catch 22-what if obtaining the proper infection control armamentarium becomes more difficult allowing any facility for that matter unable to maintain OSHA standards.  this becomes a real slippery slope.  do not interpret this as sounding any alarms, but i believe the media has been causing some unnecessary panic and this is some of the collateral damage.  pretty close to yelling fire in a crowded theater
don't...don't don't don't don't

lawdog77

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #603 on: March 09, 2020, 08:11:58 PM »
If she is a SAHM with school age children, what does she normally keep busy with while the kids are at school?

If you want to feel sorry for someone, feel sorry for the paycheck-to-paycheck single moms who will have to take unpaid leave to watch their kids.
I agree with you 1000%, my comment about my sister in law was tounge in cheek, as her children can be quite the misfits.

Hards Alumni

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #604 on: March 09, 2020, 08:39:31 PM »
thought i posted this earlier-as recent as saturday, 3/7 was able to order kleenex germ wipe tissues. 8  packs of 48.  allowed me to get 2 so i got 768 wipes for $44.00 or roughly .05-.06 per wipe.  supposed to arrive 3/9-3/16.  they haven't yet come today, but not going to hold my breath

along the same lines, spoke to my sullivan-schein rep-she said they do not gouge during times like these, but they have limits on orders for infection control stuff like masks.  although i haven't checked the prices, but we can only order 3 boxes of level 3.  i never thought of asking her how often and what  larger offices do.   i've known her a long time, so i've taken her word for it.  what i am going to do?  shop around? 

here's a real catch 22-what if obtaining the proper infection control armamentarium becomes more difficult allowing any facility for that matter unable to maintain OSHA standards.  this becomes a real slippery slope.  do not interpret this as sounding any alarms, but i believe the media has been causing some unnecessary panic and this is some of the collateral damage.  pretty close to yelling fire in a crowded theater

Is it the media's fault if this is exactly what happened in China and SK?  There is a world wide shortage, and there will be.  What we see now is just the first wave of panic.  I'd wager that the true panic hasn't set in because the vast majority of people in the US aren't taking this seriously, or haven't even thought about stocking up on supplies.  Sure some have.  They're bring proactive.  Just wait until people start tracking trucks with loads of supplies meant for the stores and they don't make it to the store.  Then we will know what true panic is.

rocket surgeon

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #605 on: March 09, 2020, 08:44:49 PM »
Is it the media's fault if this is exactly what happened in China and SK?  There is a world wide shortage, and there will be.  What we see now is just the first wave of panic.  I'd wager that the true panic hasn't set in because the vast majority of people in the US aren't taking this seriously, or haven't even thought about stocking up on supplies.  Sure some have.  They're bring proactive.  Just wait until people start tracking trucks with loads of supplies meant for the stores and they don't make it to the store.  Then we will know what true panic is.

no, not the media's fault but there is "other stuff" happening

we aren't taking this seriously enough?  no, we haven't put everyone under house arrest yet, but judging by shortages of "stuff" and half empty airlines, trains, closing "stuff" etc etc.  so what will it be tipping you off that we are taking this seriously?  not everything happens in your backyard.  the stock market seems to be taking it seriously...actually too seriously, but that's a whole different topic that gives me a tummy ache right now
don't...don't don't don't don't

Hards Alumni

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #606 on: March 09, 2020, 08:51:13 PM »
no, not the media's fault but there is "other stuff" happening

we aren't taking this seriously enough?  no, we haven't put everyone under house arrest yet, but judging by shortages of "stuff" and half empty airlines, trains, closing "stuff" etc etc.  so what will it be tipping you off that we are taking this seriously?  not everything happens in your backyard.  the stock market seems to be taking it seriously...actually too seriously, but that's a whole different topic that gives me a tummy ache right now

Fair enough, obviously, emotion is what they sell, but there will never be a shortage of outrage in the news. 

We haven't put people under house arrest yet, but we should consider it.  The US is letting this progress just like other countries where things went very badly... which seems to be everywhere but SK and Singapore (not really fair to judge).  Europe is being reactive, and its not working out so well.  SEA is doing it right. 

forgetful

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #607 on: March 09, 2020, 09:09:01 PM »
Thought I posted this, but obviously didn't go through.

Regarding Italy's healthcare. There care is great. The problem has nothing to do with the healthcare system it has to do with:

1. Italy has the oldest population in all of Europe.
2. Enough cases slipped through the initial cracks, allowing spread.
3. Politicians were emphasizing that there was nothing to worry about and that it was just a flu. Leading to people not taking precautions.

That led to rapid spread. People not going to the doctor, or quarantining themselves, and the result is what you see now.

Hards Alumni

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #608 on: March 09, 2020, 09:13:20 PM »
Thought I posted this, but obviously didn't go through.

Regarding Italy's healthcare. There care is great. The problem has nothing to do with the healthcare system it has to do with:

1. Italy has the oldest population in all of Europe.
2. Enough cases slipped through the initial cracks, allowing spread.
3. Politicians were emphasizing that there was nothing to worry about and that it was just a flu. Leading to people not taking precautions.

That led to rapid spread. People not going to the doctor, or quarantining themselves, and the result is what you see now.

America - "Two out of three ain't bad"

Benny B

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #609 on: March 09, 2020, 10:20:30 PM »
Yay for your kid who wants to price gouge and profit off the fears of their fellow man?

To be fair, he said “profit,” not “gouge.”

Frankly, if there was an oversupply in one part of the country and a shortage in the other, shipping product to your kid to distribute at a fair profit (to cover the time/effort) seems like it would be doing society a favor.

Maintain perspective, people. 
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Galway Eagle

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #610 on: March 09, 2020, 10:35:36 PM »
To be fair, he said “profit,” not “gouge.”

Frankly, if there was an oversupply in one part of the country and a shortage in the other, shipping product to your kid to distribute at a fair profit (to cover the time/effort) seems like it would be doing society a favor.

Maintain perspective, people.

This. Plus maybe his kid needed toilet paper, he can use the hand San to barter for it. 
Maigh Eo for Sam

rocky_warrior

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #611 on: March 09, 2020, 10:56:15 PM »
here's a real catch 22-what if obtaining the proper infection control armamentarium becomes more difficult allowing any facility for that matter unable to maintain OSHA standards.  this becomes a real slippery slope. 

Seriously dude, have you been living under a rock? I've been telling you this. This is already happening.  Healthcare centers in the US with 100s of clinics can't get resupplied. Dr's, PA's, MA's are freaking out. We're already past the point of being able to stop this. 

And to the Twitter thread from the Italian doc, read it.

Marquette Gyros

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #612 on: March 09, 2020, 11:14:26 PM »
This. Plus maybe his kid needed toilet paper, he can use the hand San to barter for it.

The worst part is that he willingly lives in San Bernardino.

Hards Alumni

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #613 on: March 09, 2020, 11:54:24 PM »
Seriously dude, have you been living under a rock? I've been telling you this. This is already happening.  Healthcare centers in the US with 100s of clinics can't get resupplied. Dr's, PA's, MA's are freaking out. We're already past the point of being able to stop this. 

And to the Twitter thread from the Italian doc, read it.

Quote
/ I may be repeating myself, but I want to fight this sense of security that I see outside of the epicenters, as if nothing was going to happen "here". The media in Europe are reassuring, politicians are reassuring, while there's little to be reassured of. #COVID19 #coronavirus

2/ This is the English translation of a post of another ICU physician in Bergamo, Dr. Daniele Macchini. Read until the end "After much thought about whether and what to write about what is happening to us, I felt that silence was not responsible.

3/ I will therefore try to convey to people far from our reality what we are living in Bergamo in these days of Covid-19 pandemic. I understand the need not to create panic, but when the message of the dangerousness of what is happening does not reach people I shudder.

4/ I myself watched with some amazement the reorganization of the entire hospital in the past week, when our current enemy was still in the shadows: the wards slowly "emptied", elective activitieswere interrupted, intensive care were freed up to create as many beds as possible.

5/ All this rapid transformation brought an atmosphere of silence and surreal emptiness to the corridors of the hospital that we did not yet understand, waiting for a war that was yet to begin and that many (including me) were not so sure would ever come with such ferocity.

6/ I still remember my night call a week ago when I was waiting for the results of a swab. When I think about it, my anxiety over one possible case seems almost ridiculous and unjustified, now that I've seen what's happening. Well, the situation now is dramatic to say the least.

7/ The war has literally exploded and battles are uninterrupted day and night. But now that need for beds has arrived in all its drama. One after the other the departments that had been emptied fill up at an impressive pace.

8/ The boards with the names of the patients, of different colours depending on the operating unit, are now all red and instead of surgery you see the diagnosis, which is always the damned same: bilateral interstitial pneumonia.

9/ Now, explain to me which flu virus causes such a rapid drama. [post continues comparing covid19 to flu, link below]. And while there are still people who boast of not being afraid by ignoring directions, protesting because their normal routine is"temporarily" put in crisis,

10/ the epidemiological disaster is taking place. And there are no more surgeons, urologists, orthopedists, we are only doctors who suddenly become part of a single team to face this tsunami that has overwhelmed us.

11/ Cases are multiplying, we arrive at a rate of 15-20 admissions per day all for the same reason. The results of the swabs now come one after the other: positive, positive, positive. Suddenly the E.R. is collapsing.

12/ Reasons for the access always the same: fever and breathing difficulties, fever and cough, respiratory failure. Radiology reports always the same: bilateral interstitial pneumonia, bilateral interstitial pneumonia, bilateral interstitial pneumonia. All to be hospitalized.

13/ Someone already to be intubated and go to intensive care. For others it's too late... Every ventilator becomes like gold: those in operating theatres that have now suspended their non-urgent activity become intensive care places that did not exist before.

14/ The staff is exhausted. I saw the tiredness on faces that didn't know what it was despite the already exhausting workloads they had. I saw a solidarity of all of us, who never failed to go to our internist colleagues to ask "what can I do for you now?"

15/ Doctors who move beds and transfer patients, who administer therapies instead of nurses. Nurses with tears in their eyes because we can't save everyone, and the vital parameters of several patients at the same time reveal an already marked destiny.

16/ There are no more shifts, no more hours. Social life is suspended for us. We no longer see our families for fear of infecting them. Some of us have already become infected despite the protocols.

17/ Some of our colleagues who are infected also have infected relatives and some of their relatives are already struggling between life and death. So be patient, you can't go to the theatre, museums or the gym. Try to have pity on the myriad of old people you could exterminate.

18/ We just try to make ourselves useful. You should do the same: we influence the life and death of a few dozen people. You with yours, many more. Please share this message. We must spread the word to prevent what is happening here from happening all over Italy."

20/ I finish by saying that I really don't understand this war on panic. The only reason I see is mask shortages, but there's no mask on sale anymore. We don't have a lot of studies, but is it panic really worse than neglect and carelessness during an epidemic of this sort?

19/ Full post here, you can DeepL:

«Con le nostre azioni influenziamo la vita e la morte di molte persone»Con un lungo post su Facebook, il dottor Daniele Macchini, medico dell’Humanitas Gavazzeni, racconta la sua vita in prima linea per contrastare il coronavirus. È una testimonianza da brividi, da legg…https://www.ecodibergamo.it/stories/bergamo-citta/con-le-nostre-azioni-influenziamola-vita-e-la-morte-di-molte-persone_1344030_11/

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rocky's edit: imma fix your quotes
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 12:09:46 AM by rocky_warrior »

SoCalwarrior

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #614 on: March 10, 2020, 12:52:27 AM »
Wait, Pearl Jam just canceled their tour? Ok, now it's real to me.

mu03eng

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #615 on: March 10, 2020, 07:39:56 AM »
The "panic, the end is nigh" crowd should probably step back and look at things a little more detailed. So far the most catastrophic and widespread outbreaks have been in two places, China and Italy. What do those two countries have in common?

-Very dense populations
-Extremely pervasive smoking culture
-Low public hygiene culture(especially northern Italy, hoo boy).
-Aging/older population

There is no doubt that the virus is something to be vigilant about and there is also no doubt that if what is happening in Italy were happening, in say, New York State that there would be a lot of panic and stress on the system.....but I don't think that the virus is nearly deadly enough nor going to be widespread enough to do more than cause a short term recession and stress people out for a couple of weeks.

I think 6 months from now we're going to have tons of think pieces on why all the hullabaloo was and why the media is bad and then we'll have counter think pieces about how nothing happened which means the system worked so the angst was all justified.....good times
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #616 on: March 10, 2020, 07:43:23 AM »
Yeah the Facebook memes and Presidential tweets comparing this to the flu in hopes of minimizing the problem don't really understand the point.  It's not about stopping healthy people like myself from catching this.  It's about slowing the spread so our health system can manage it when it REALLY starts.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #617 on: March 10, 2020, 07:44:13 AM »
The "panic, the end is nigh" crowd should probably step back and look at things a little more detailed. So far the most catastrophic and widespread outbreaks have been in two places, China and Italy. What do those two countries have in common?

-Very dense populations
-Extremely pervasive smoking culture
-Low public hygiene culture(especially northern Italy, hoo boy).
-Aging/older population

There is no doubt that the virus is something to be vigilant about and there is also no doubt that if what is happening in Italy were happening, in say, New York State that there would be a lot of panic and stress on the system.....but I don't think that the virus is nearly deadly enough nor going to be widespread enough to do more than cause a short term recession and stress people out for a couple of weeks.

I think 6 months from now we're going to have tons of think pieces on why all the hullabaloo was and why the media is bad and then we'll have counter think pieces about how nothing happened which means the system worked so the angst was all justified.....good times

Iran too.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Galway Eagle

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #618 on: March 10, 2020, 07:49:46 AM »
So when do they suggest you go get tested? Fever? Shortness of breath? Congestion? These seem like symptoms of a cold, so are they advising precaution or what
Maigh Eo for Sam


MUBurrow

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #620 on: March 10, 2020, 09:10:49 AM »
So when do they suggest you go get tested? Fever? Shortness of breath? Congestion? These seem like symptoms of a cold, so are they advising precaution or what

This is the difficulty for me too, and I think its where it becomes impossible to discuss this completely apolitically.  The fact is that we fracked up the response by delaying the production of tests, and now we have a shortage and no way to have a good handle on what is going on. There could be a lot of reasons for that, and it could have happened to any administration (the political pissing match is over why the delay, and how likely it would have been in various admnistrations - which is the kind of stuff we've all agreed not to discuss around here).  But its a fact that we delayed on readying tests, even compared to other countries, and now we don't have remotely enough.

This is resulting in mealy-mouthed, useless guidelines into who should seek tests, and how they should do it.  And that's because none of the powers that be are willing to admit there aren't enough tests, and so we have to restrict access to them more than we should.  Its compounding the error. FWIW, if you haven't traveled to a hot zone, and you haven't had contact with someone you know to have tested positive, you aint getting a test right now. But you might still have covid-19, so unless you have symptoms beyond typical cold-mild flu stuff, self-quarantine and stay outta the health care system.

mu03eng

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #621 on: March 10, 2020, 09:13:31 AM »
Iran too.

Great point, forgot about Iran....they have all the same intrinsic markers that Italy and China do that make them very vulnerable to an overly negative impact from a virus of this type. Essentially Covid 19 is a respiratory flu, so dense/aging/respiratory adverse nations are going to struggle with it. Add in any infrastructure problems and it gets bad. However the majority of countries in the developed world don't have the perfect storm that Iran/Italy/China has so while it will be impactful it won't be the worst case scenario
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GooooMarquette

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #622 on: March 10, 2020, 09:13:51 AM »
The "panic, the end is nigh" crowd should probably step back and look at things a little more detailed. So far the most catastrophic and widespread outbreaks have been in two places, China and Italy. What do those two countries have in common?

-Very dense populations
-Extremely pervasive smoking culture
-Low public hygiene culture(especially northern Italy, hoo boy).
-Aging/older population


You are spot on. I just checked The WHO data on smoking rates, and they bear that out.

China: 45.7% of men and 1.4% of women (about 23.5% overall).
Italy: 26.9% of men and 19.6% of women (about 23.8% overall).
US: 17.4% of men and 13.0% of women (about 15.2% overall).

I suspect the dramatic difference between men and women in China is a cultural thing, but even if you take the approximate average, the OVERALL smoking rate in both Italy and China is more than 50% higher than in the US. Combine that with the higher population density, and Italy and China have all the hallmarks of being more susceptible targets than the US. It also wouldn't surprise me if China has less restrictive workplace bans on smoking, so second-hand smoke may also be a bigger factor.

Yes, we need to be vigilant...but I think we need to step back from the ledge....
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 09:18:10 AM by GooooMarquette »

Hards Alumni

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #623 on: March 10, 2020, 09:23:39 AM »
Sounds good guys.  Looks like scoop has figured it out.  Someone alert the WHO and CDC that this is just a smokers disease.


Galway Eagle

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Re: COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")
« Reply #624 on: March 10, 2020, 09:25:32 AM »
Sounds good guys.  Looks like scoop has figured it out.  Someone alert the WHO and CDC that this is just a smokers disease.

That's sort of a ridiculous conclusion. The point they were making was why the spread has been explosive in those areas and severity has been worse.
Maigh Eo for Sam

 

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