MU tuition up 3.5%

[Galway Eagle]

"I have a friend" anectodal stories aside, the average loan amount taken out by Marqutte undergraduates a year is $7,800.  Times four, that's just over $30,000.  If you choose the extended payoff rate, that's $230 a month.  That isn't "crippling" - expecially since Marquette's loan default rate is about 2%.

And a liberal arts major is going to make more over the course of their lifetime than someone with a high school education.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/whats-a-liberal-arts-degree-worth-11557501301

Ok, no personal anecdotes though for the record both were true stories.

skipped over the teacher argument though. How should a teacher justify 4 years of loans to basically make crap money According to salary.com and glassdoor a teacher around Milwaukee is looking at 33k-73k. Average journeyman electrician is 41k-83k (Glassdoor) how should Marquette justify telling students to become teachers, then teach kids that education is important when a person less educated is making more money?

Avg starting salary= 45k
Take home pay after taxes= 35.7 (used a tax calculator based on 2018)
Each Paycheck= Roughly 1489

Expenses based on available averages:
230/month loans+1,211/month rent + 33/month auto insurance + 530/month car + Federal government suggests 200-400/month on groceries (for this purpose I used 300) + 50/month utilities + 75/month phone bill + 60/month in internet + 50/month health insurance (plan?) + We've been taught our whole lives to save 20% of each paycheck which'd be 596/month

That's 3075 for expense/recommendations vs 2978.6 earned every month how do you feel that's not crippling?

sure it's easy to tell someone don't get a car but in Milwaukee that's not really feasible plus then you've gotta factor in Public transit.  Get a roommate? Some people are introverts or have social anxiety. Phone and internet are pretty much essentials for someone to be successful now unless their back is truly against the wall. Which gets to cutting into savings. Then a person can barely break even so I guess you've got me there!

[Galway Eagle]

What do people think about programs like free school in exchange for X% of earnings for X years? It is just a matter of running the actuary numbers to get to some numbers that average out the cost over a big enough pool of graduates. Grads who become Catholic school teachers will pay back less, but investment bankers will pay back more. Could be a completely voluntary program administered by MU: MU covers cost while students send them checks for X years after graduation. MU could still take students who prefer to take government backed loans. Just another option. I don't really see a downside.

I like it, but it's new and out there so someone will find a reason to be upset.

[Billy Hoyle]

"I have a friend" anectodal stories aside, the average loan amount taken out by Marqutte undergraduates a year is $7,800.  Times four, that's just over $30,000.  If you choose the extended payoff rate, that's $230 a month.  That isn't "crippling" - expecially since Marquette's loan default rate is about 2%.

And a liberal arts major is going to make more over the course of their lifetime than someone with a high school education.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/whats-a-liberal-arts-degree-worth-11557501301

Is that in federal loans? What about private loans, or parent PLUS loans. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

Ok, no personal anecdotes though for the record both were true stories.

skipped over the teacher argument though. How should a teacher justify 4 years of loans to basically make crap money According to salary.com and glassdoor a teacher around Milwaukee is looking at 33k-73k. Average journeyman electrician is 41k-83k (Glassdoor) how should Marquette justify telling students to become teachers, then teach kids that education is important when a person less educated is making more money?

Avg starting salary= 45k
Take home pay after taxes= 35.7 (used a tax calculator based on 2018)
Each Paycheck= Roughly 1489

Expenses based on available averages:
230/month loans+1,211/month rent + 33/month auto insurance + 530/month car + Federal government suggests 200-400/month on groceries (for this purpose I used 300) + 50/month utilities + 75/month phone bill + 60/month in internet + 50/month health insurance (plan?) + We've been taught our whole lives to save 20% of each paycheck which'd be 596/month

That's 3075 for expense/recommendations vs 2978.6 earned every month how do you feel that's not crippling?

sure it's easy to tell someone don't get a car but in Milwaukee that's not really feasible plus then you've gotta factor in Public transit.  Get a roommate? Some people are introverts or have social anxiety. Phone and internet are pretty much essentials for someone to be successful now unless their back is truly against the wall. Which gets to cutting into savings. Then a person can barely break even so I guess you've got me there!

Teachers have school loan forgiveness programs available to them including 100% forgiveness after 10 years of teaching.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/student-loans/teacher-student-loan-forgiveness/

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Ok, no personal anecdotes though for the record both were true stories.

skipped over the teacher argument though. How should a teacher justify 4 years of loans to basically make crap money According to salary.com and glassdoor a teacher around Milwaukee is looking at 33k-73k. Average journeyman electrician is 41k-83k (Glassdoor) how should Marquette justify telling students to become teachers, then teach kids that education is important when a person less educated is making more money?

You're assuming that getting an education is solely about the professional training you receive.  You are also assuming that a teacher will always be a teacher.

[Coleman]

Teachers have school loan forgiveness programs available to them including 100% forgiveness after 10 years of teaching.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/student-loans/teacher-student-loan-forgiveness/

That almost never actually happens in practice

[Galway Eagle]

Teachers have school loan forgiveness programs available to them including 100% forgiveness after 10 years of teaching.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/student-loans/teacher-student-loan-forgiveness/

 so only 10yrs of living like crap and boom you're 33/32 better hustle to save money now that you can afford to walk down the aisle, get a house and child after living below your means for a decade.

[Galway Eagle]

You're assuming that getting an education is solely about the professional training you receive.  You are also assuming that a teacher will always be a teacher.

Well they'll probably be forced out from it due to it being unsustainable. But then they get a new corporate starting salary which can be less but certainly won't be extensively more as they don't have corporate experience nor specialized training from an education degree. So now choose door 1: crappy entry level job paying about the same door 2: take out more loans so you can try to apply that math specialty as a teacher to analytics or finance. Or that English specialty to being a copywriter

[jficke13]

Teachers have school loan forgiveness programs available to them including 100% forgiveness after 10 years of teaching.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/student-loans/teacher-student-loan-forgiveness/

Is that one of the loan forgiveness programs that gets treated as income on taxes? That was a fun day in law school during tax when all the people who planned on doing PD work learned that after doing income-based repayment and not actually reducing the principal balance owed, the loan forgiveness at the end of public service career was treated as gross income. I didn't do that program so haven't kept up with whether it has changed.

[forgetful]

Not to be combative, but I really do believe this: As tuition continues to outstrip inflation and the value of a tuition investment in MU (and all privates / high priced education) decreases, the customer base drops to zero over the long term. 

MU's recent cuts and very high acceptance rates seem to be canaries in that coal mine.   

So .. no tuition freeze?  Ok.  I think there's an asteroid coming.   How can it be dealt with?

I actually don't find this combative at all. It is fairly accurate assessment of long term prognosis.

Cutting salaries though is not really feasible, education would suffer tremendously.

But a "tuition freeze" is not the only way to deal with this.

The reason tuition increases are now under 5% is because they were aware of the long term issues. The reason they are able to do that, and still increase revenue is because they are now targeting other lucrative income streams. The current big one is "continuing education" for local individuals.

The current long term plan for most Universities is to further develop high revenue continuing education streams, and developing some online curricula, particularly in "continuing education". That way the can keep tuition under control, without affecting education or the University mission.

Minor disagreement regarding "canaries in a coal mine". You are misinterpreting stats regarding the high acceptance rates.

[Dr. Blackheart]

so only 10yrs of living like crap and boom you're 33/32 better hustle to save money now that you can afford to walk down the aisle, get a house and child after living below your means for a decade.

No, you do what all the teachers do and delay starting or make low loan payments until you are 32 and then you are debt free. In the summers, work at Fed Ex and rake in the cash. What else would you want? Hell, if the teachers were smart, they took more on their loans and invested the extra loan amount above tuition for ten years.

Guess what, we bought our first house about that same age. Kids then followed. We were lucky to get a fixed, first time homeowners loan from HUD at 13.5% (not kidding on the lucky part). My wife worked in a non-profit but we still had to pay off her student loan at rates above 10%. No exemptions back then. It sucked too...who knows how many times we had to refinance those house loans and pay points each time as interest rates came down.

I know this response is sweater-vestish, but each generation has its own crosses to bear.  If no one can pay for tuition, then costs will come down. If they can, costs will go up. You adapt. It’s scary because you see all the costs with loans at the start, and not the appreciation of benefits till later. But, I can honestly say that a low cost student loan will provide most if not all a better investment return than just about anything.

[jsglow]

Ok, no personal anecdotes though for the record both were true stories.

skipped over the teacher argument though. How should a teacher justify 4 years of loans to basically make crap money According to salary.com and glassdoor a teacher around Milwaukee is looking at 33k-73k. Average journeyman electrician is 41k-83k (Glassdoor) how should Marquette justify telling students to become teachers, then teach kids that education is important when a person less educated is making more money?

Avg starting salary= 45k
Take home pay after taxes= 35.7 (used a tax calculator based on 2018)
Each Paycheck= Roughly 1489

Expenses based on available averages:
230/month loans+1,211/month rent + 33/month auto insurance + 530/month car + Federal government suggests 200-400/month on groceries (for this purpose I used 300) + 50/month utilities + 75/month phone bill + 60/month in internet + 50/month health insurance (plan?) + We've been taught our whole lives to save 20% of each paycheck which'd be 596/month

That's 3075 for expense/recommendations vs 2978.6 earned every month how do you feel that's not crippling?

sure it's easy to tell someone don't get a car but in Milwaukee that's not really feasible plus then you've gotta factor in Public transit.  Get a roommate? Some people are introverts or have social anxiety. Phone and internet are pretty much essentials for someone to be successful now unless their back is truly against the wall. Which gets to cutting into savings. Then a person can barely break even so I guess you've got me there!

So I didn't read the whole thing but why do you think the College of Education is getting dissolved?  The class size is down to about 30 kids per year.  Consumers aren't stupid.  Now the same argument can be made that basically any soft science Liberal Arts degree should face a similar fate but that just doesn't fit any reasonable Jesuit mission statement.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Is that one of the loan forgiveness programs that gets treated as income on taxes? That was a fun day in law school during tax when all the people who planned on doing PD work learned that after doing income-based repayment and not actually reducing the principal balance owed, the loan forgiveness at the end of public service career was treated as gross income. I didn't do that program so haven't kept up with whether it has changed.

Yes, it’s taxable now. Let’s see if the program continues after the election too.

https://www.savingforcollege.com/article/is-student-loan-forgiveness-taxable

[jsglow]

So marrying this with the thread showing Tom Hagerty's old pictures along Wells. 

You kids with your brick oven pizza in Commons and snowplow parents solving every little challenge you've ever encountered have no idea how awesome it was to be 18 and legal in the 'naked city' along the north edge of campus with at least 20 Wells and State Street taverns to choose from.  It would kill me in one weekend nowadays.  Youth is wasted on the young.

[rocket surgeon]

Very, very easily. The school isn't issuing the loan. The school collects the money on the front end and (aside from a general desire for its students not to default) is not impacted by future failures to repay. The feds guarantee the loans, so when kids default, the school isn't holding the bag. They aren't financiers.

In fact, this is ABSOLUTELY THE NUMBER ONE reason why tuition inflates at such a disgusting rate. Schools have no incentive to control prices. Kids will just take a loan because school decisions are pathos-driven, not economic-analysis driven, and the school has its money regardless of what debt the kid is ultimately burdened with (or who the loan issuer is that gets screwed... probably the federal government, so all of us). Why charge $1.00 if people will happily fork over $10.00? And the year after that, why not $20.00, and so on and so on.

It's the perfect storm of price elasticity x moral hazard.

this is "F" ing right on!!

  btw, i did not get any discounts or grants or schollies, or...nor did my 2 kids, which was really me again  

[rocket surgeon]

bro galway, re: teachers-point well taken, BUT they do have pretty good retirement plans and medical insurance.  i know i'm old, but i pay over $2400/mo, for my bride and i

[Billy Hoyle]

Is that one of the loan forgiveness programs that gets treated as income on taxes? That was a fun day in law school during tax when all the people who planned on doing PD work learned that after doing income-based repayment and not actually reducing the principal balance owed, the loan forgiveness at the end of public service career was treated as gross income. I didn't do that program so haven't kept up with whether it has changed.

you mean the loan forgiveness program that never was?  That was a fun day to get the rejection letter because my federal loans were taken out under a different name. But then again, I'm among the 99% who were eligible for the program and got hosed so I cannot be too mad, right?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2019/09/09/99-rejected-for-student-loan-forgiveness-again/

[warriorchick]

Expenses based on available averages:
230/month loans+1,211/month rent + 33/month auto insurance + 530/month car + Federal government suggests 200-400/month on groceries (for this purpose I used 300) + 50/month utilities + 75/month phone bill + 60/month in internet + 50/month health insurance (plan?) + We've been taught our whole lives to save 20% of each paycheck which'd be 596/month

I am not sure where you got the information that the average apartment in Milwaukee is $1200 a month, but I I can promise no young teacher is living in it (at least not a smart one). You can share a beautiful 2 bedroom apartment in Tosa for under $500 a person. A couple of years ago, my daughter had a 1 bedroom on the East Side that had a view of the Lake. She was paying $800.

But your point is made. Starting pay for teachers sucks.

[warriorchick]

Yes, it’s taxable now. Let’s see if the program continues after the election too.

https://www.savingforcollege.com/article/is-student-loan-forgiveness-taxable

Forgiveness of debt has always been taxable income, no matter what kind. They don't tell you that in those "Let us renegotiate your credit card bills" ads.

Even so, paying tax on $30,000 is still a better deal than paying back $30,000 in loan payments plus interest.

[4everwarriors]

I am not sure where you got the information that the average apartment in Milwaukee is $1200 a month, but I I can promise no young teacher is living in it (at least not a smart one). You can share a beautiful 2 bedroom apartment in Tosa for under $500 a person. A couple of years ago, my daughter had a 1 bedroom on the East Side that had a view of the Lake. She was paying $800.

But your point is made. Starting pay for teachers sucks.

Yeah butt, probably der wuz no underground heated parking and da concierge sucked, aina?

[Galway Eagle]

I am not sure where you got the information that the average apartment in Milwaukee is $1200 a month, but I I can promise no young teacher is living in it (at least not a smart one). You can share a beautiful 2 bedroom apartment in Tosa for under $500 a person. A couple of years ago, my daughter had a 1 bedroom on the East Side that had a view of the Lake. She was paying $800.

But your point is made. Starting pay for teachers sucks.

Available averages. I'm sure I could find a basement apartment prone to mold for 350 (actually I know I can) but was basing it off average price of a 1bdrm in mke proper.

[jesmu84]

Teachers have school loan forgiveness programs available to them including 100% forgiveness after 10 years of teaching.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/student-loans/teacher-student-loan-forgiveness/

Uh...

Nearly all of those eligible got rejected.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Well they'll probably be forced out from it due to it being unsustainable. But then they get a new corporate starting salary which can be less but certainly won't be extensively more as they don't have corporate experience nor specialized training from an education degree. So now choose door 1: crappy entry level job paying about the same door 2: take out more loans so you can try to apply that math specialty as a teacher to analytics or finance. Or that English specialty to being a copywriter

Well those aren’t the only options.

[Galway Eagle]

bro galway, re: teachers-point well taken, BUT they do have pretty good retirement plans and medical insurance.  i know i'm old, but i pay over $2400/mo, for my bride and i

True about retirement plans... if they get there after such crape salary. Medical I will disagree, I've been a Maketing Analyst for CDW for a quarter and am getting better medical than my gf who's been with MPS for 4yrs.

[Galway Eagle]

No, you do what all the teachers do and delay starting or make low loan payments until you are 32 and then you are debt free. In the summers, work at Fed Ex and rake in the cash. What else would you want? Hell, if the teachers were smart, they took more on their loans and invested the extra loan amount above tuition for ten years.

Guess what, we bought our first house about that same age. Kids then followed. We were lucky to get a fixed, first time homeowners loan from HUD at 13.5% (not kidding on the lucky part). My wife worked in a non-profit but we still had to pay off her student loan at rates above 10%. No exemptions back then. It sucked too...who knows how many times we had to refinance those house loans and pay points each time as interest rates came down.

I know this response is sweater-vestish, but each generation has its own crosses to bear.  If no one can pay for tuition, then costs will come down. If they can, costs will go up. You adapt. It’s scary because you see all the costs with loans at the start, and not the appreciation of benefits till later. But, I can honestly say that a low cost student loan will provide most if not all a better investment return than just about anything.

Congrats you're one of the few "sweater vesters" who aren't upset at millenials and Zs for not investing in real estate in their 20s then.

As far as summers off, last year MPS had a week of snow days leading to June break. Started the first week of August. Keep in mind it's extremely frowned upon to take a vacation as a teacher during the year. Are you going to say that you've never felt the need for a break and taken a vacation at your job?

I agree about every generation. I am NOT a millenial saying we've had it harder. Only that college cost is increasing at a faster rate than starting salaries are and to get back to disagreeing with Sultan, it does cripple people right out of college.