MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: WarriorDad on December 11, 2019, 03:03:09 PM
-
Received the notice last week. Lower annual increase than the 5% the latest few years. Rate card now going to $44,000.
-
Up 100%+ in 10 years. At this rate it will be aprx $166k/yr for my daughter in 18 years. That which can't go on forever, won't.
-
44 grand. Jesus Christ.
-
44 grand. Jesus Christ.
lower increases than when I was there.
And don't forget, $44K is just for tuition. Freshmen and sophomores also have to pay room and board charges, which will be over $13K next year.
-
And don't forget, $44K is just for tuition. Freshmen and sophomores also have to pay room and board charges, which will be over $13K next year.
Right. Hence the Jesus Christ
-
I will say it for the 999th time: With tuition increases that outstrip inflation every year, over time, the universe of customers who will pay for Marquette (or any private school) drops to near zero.
In 24 short years, at 3.5%, MU's tuition will be $100k/year. If you add in $13k for room/board, that milestone is only 16 years away.
Yes, yes, student aid lowers these numbers and it's all a big used car lot.
-
High cost, high discount programs exist for a reason. Marquette will be fine.
-
High cost, high discount programs exist for a reason. Marquette will be fine.
Call me crazy but selling a product for a massive, conscience-shocking price tag tuition and cutting everyone a 50% discount to get it down to merely exorbitant, or maybe a 75% or 80% or 90% to get it to "affordable" doesn't seem like it plays.
Pricing at $100k/yr and making the true cost $20k/yr is nuts.
-
Got to pay for all those administrators somehow. Don't see how some schools survive when graduates can't make enough to pay back loans.
.
-
My wife reminds me regularly that I have to ramp down my anti-Badger rhetoric so that our kids don't rule that school out and want to go to Marquette.
That or we need to start terminal degrees and get teaching gigs somewhere. Or become janitors.
-
I will say it for the 999th time: With tuition increases that outstrip inflation every year, over time, the universe of customers who will pay for Marquette (or any private school) drops to near zero.
In 24 short years, at 3.5%, MU's tuition will be $100k/year. If you add in $13k for room/board, that milestone is only 16 years away.
Yes, yes, student aid lowers these numbers and it's all a big used car lot.
Student aid lowers these numbers. Very few students pay the full price.
-
Student aid lowers these numbers. Very few students pay the full price.
True, but the number of students who do pay full price (that helps subsidize aid programs) is dropping and even they are becoming more cost conscious. You don’t get enough full paying students, you gotta big while in operating budget.
-
Well worth it! (Well, except for MU82, @1nuh).
-
Ludicrous. In 2009 I was given a 6k scholarship is the argument that that scholarship would now be 12k or that most people don't pay the 44k because MU generously gives out 44k scholarships?
Either way it seems to be quite unaffordable.
-
Kind of curious as to what people think the solution should be.
-
Start with a decade-long tuition freeze. Minimum.
-
Start with a decade-long tuition freeze. Minimum.
Didn't mean that aspect. Meant, what do you cut? How do you maintain the same level of education and amenities, and have a decade-long tuition freeze.
-
Got to pay for all those administrators somehow. Don't see how some schools survive when graduates can't make enough to pay back loans.
.
Very, very easily. The school isn't issuing the loan. The school collects the money on the front end and (aside from a general desire for its students not to default) is not impacted by future failures to repay. The feds guarantee the loans, so when kids default, the school isn't holding the bag. They aren't financiers.
In fact, this is ABSOLUTELY THE NUMBER ONE reason why tuition inflates at such a disgusting rate. Schools have no incentive to control prices. Kids will just take a loan because school decisions are pathos-driven, not economic-analysis driven, and the school has its money regardless of what debt the kid is ultimately burdened with (or who the loan issuer is that gets screwed... probably the federal government, so all of us). Why charge $1.00 if people will happily fork over $10.00? And the year after that, why not $20.00, and so on and so on.
It's the perfect storm of price elasticity x moral hazard.
-
Call me crazy but selling a product for a massive, conscience-shocking price tag tuition and cutting everyone a 50% discount to get it down to merely exorbitant, or maybe a 75% or 80% or 90% to get it to "affordable" doesn't seem like it plays.
Pricing at $100k/yr and making the true cost $20k/yr is nuts.
Brother (or Sister) Ficke:
But they don't discount consistently. I'm guessing there's quite a few of us who would never see the light of day with any money. I'm a big supporter of Marquette financially and otherwise but this is the one issue that threatens the university's existence. And, I do think they know it.
3.5 percent is better than it has been in a long time. But assuming a consistent 3.5 percent increase, or CAGR (as in compound annual growth rate), the Marquette tuition that is $44,000 annually today will be $82,000 by the time a child born today reaches age 18. Will there be enough financial aid to make up the delta between middle class family affordability and Marquette's tuition? Candidly, it's doubtful given the sociological and personal financial factors affecting too many of today's college grads.
Maybe they are hoping a political candidate who promises free college tuition becomes president!
-
44 grand. Jesus Christ.
Even he has to pay 44 grand?
-
Even he has to pay 44 grand?
^^^ ban dis gf thing
-
Call me crazy but selling a product for a massive, conscience-shocking price tag tuition and cutting everyone a 50% discount to get it down to merely exorbitant, or maybe a 75% or 80% or 90% to get it to "affordable" doesn't seem like it plays.
Pricing at $100k/yr and making the true cost $20k/yr is nuts.
It plays much better than the opposite. Schools do this for a reason.
-
Very, very easily. The school isn't issuing the loan. The school collects the money on the front end and (aside from a general desire for its students not to default) is not impacted by future failures to repay. The feds guarantee the loans, so when kids default, the school isn't holding the bag. They aren't financiers.
In fact, this is ABSOLUTELY THE NUMBER ONE reason why tuition inflates at such a disgusting rate. Schools have no incentive to control prices. Kids will just take a loan because school decisions are pathos-driven, not economic-analysis driven, and the school has its money regardless of what debt the kid is ultimately burdened with (or who the loan issuer is that gets screwed... probably the federal government, so all of us). Why charge $1.00 if people will happily fork over $10.00? And the year after that, why not $20.00, and so on and so on.
It's the perfect storm of price elasticity x moral hazard.
Not 100% accurate on a number of levels. First schools very much work on cost containment.
Second the marketplace doesn’t support unlimited borrowing. Very few borrow more than Stafford maximums. So the idea that students will borrow whatever they need regardless doesn’t really hold true. They are smarter consumers than that.
Third students compare discounted offers. Competition still works to keep costs contained. That includes competition from public universities.
I’m not saying student indebtedness isn’t a problem. It is. But it isn’t just about cheap loans. Because those loans are a huge reason people can access higher education in the first place.
There are other discussions to be had about how financial aid programs have changed over the past 30 years, how state governments support higher education, an industry obsessed with poor measures of quality, and how our society views the personal versus communal benefits of education. But those are large, complex problems that our society really isn’t ready for.
-
What percentage of current students are paying full sticker price?
I thought I read somewhere that it was less than half and the "average" tuition bill is in the high $20k?
-
I recently went into a restaurant wearing a Marquette shirt, and the hostess asked if I went there. She told me she and some friends had recently applied and gotten in and received scholarships, but the cost was still out of reach with a sticker price over 50k. Honestly, I couldn't believe it and had to look it up. I was stunned.
Even with programs and aid, they are pricing themselves out for people. The young lady I was speaking with told me she was going to IU, but seemed much more like she wanted to talk about Marquette. It's a shame really.
-
Start with a decade-long tuition freeze. Minimum.
Are we demanding freezes of all salaries as well? Removal of some programs? No new buildings?
-
We got the letter as well...one more year for him. My daughter’s Xavier acceptance this past weekend offered bigger scholarship, lower tuition (not by much)...the game they all play.
-
Start with a decade-long tuition freeze. Minimum.
That’s not a good idea for a number of reasons.
-
I recently went into a restaurant wearing a Marquette shirt, and the hostess asked if I went there. She told me she and some friends had recently applied and gotten in and received scholarships, but the cost was still out of reach with a sticker price over 50k. Honestly, I couldn't believe it and had to look it up. I was stunned.
Even with programs and aid, they are pricing themselves out for people. The young lady I was speaking with told me she was going to IU, but seemed much more like she wanted to talk about Marquette. It's a shame really.
Marquette’s been a higher cost option for people than the public universities for decades. Yet enrollment is generally been fine.
-
Not 100% accurate on a number of levels. First schools very much work on cost containment.
Second the marketplace doesn’t support unlimited borrowing. Very few borrow more than Stafford maximums. So the idea that students will borrow whatever they need regardless doesn’t really hold true. They are smarter consumers than that.
Third students compare discounted offers. Competition still works to keep costs contained. That includes competition from public universities.
I’m not saying student indebtedness isn’t a problem. It is. But it isn’t just about cheap loans. Because those loans are a huge reason people can access higher education in the first place.
There are other discussions to be had about how financial aid programs have changed over the past 30 years, how state governments support higher education, an industry obsessed with poor measures of quality, and how our society views the personal versus communal benefits of education. But those are large, complex problems that our society really isn’t ready for.
+1
-
We got the letter as well...one more year for him. My daughter’s Xavier acceptance this past weekend offered bigger scholarship, lower tuition (not by much)...the game they all play.
BigEastDad?
But seriously, if you don't mind sharing, what made you/your daughter look into Xavier, given that you all live in CA?
-
This thread implies MU’s tuition is out of line with other private schools.
They are not.
-
My wife reminds me regularly that I have to ramp down my anti-Badger rhetoric so that our kids don't rule that school out and want to go to Marquette.
That or we need to start terminal degrees and get teaching gigs somewhere. Or become janitors.
Could go my route of go to UW. Hate the crap out of their basketball, then do masters at mu.
-
BigEastDad?
But seriously, if you don't mind sharing, what made you/your daughter look into Xavier, given that you all live in CA?
She desires to go to film school. To produce, direct, write, etc. The top film schools (UCLA, USC, CHAPMAN, NYU) are in LA or NYC. From a practical matter she applied to XU, DePaul and a few other film schools since the top ones have less than a 10% acceptance rate. Those other schools are up and coming, but geography away from the studios and production jobs have been a challenge for them. She is very good student, and so far 1 for 1 on acceptances, but no doubt rejections are coming. She knows my wife and I are leaving California soon, so that may have factored in as well. Will see how it shakes out as the other schools reveal their decisions and she chooses what to do.
-
This thread implies MU’s tuition is out of line with other private schools.
They are not.
Word.
And while the cost of higher education has outpaced inflation and that's a problem that needs a solution, many folks are willing to fork over $40k for a new car. My dad's 1976 Olds Cutlass was $4800, about what my tuition was as a MU Frosh a couple years later. And scholarships were far more selective back in the day.
-
This thread implies MU’s tuition is out of line with other private schools.
They are not.
What happens when public education is “free” for everyone?
-
Marquette’s been a higher cost option for people than the public universities for decades. Yet enrollment is generally been fine.
Does transferring the burden of crippling student loans onto a population who isn't engaging in economically rational decision making fit the mission of the university? Does maximizing revenue, playing games with sticker prices and discounts, and after all that still saddling students with a mortgage-worth of nondischargeable debt simply because enrollment hasn't dropped and therefore demand must be there fit with the university's mission?
-
What happens when public education is “free” for everyone?
The tran in Milwaukee was free for a year yet people still drove and paid for busses. There's a segment out there for everyone.
-
This thread implies MU’s tuition is out of line with other private schools.
They are not.
Or it implies that some people foresee an unsustainable trajectory in the pricing of higher education as an industry.
-
Are we demanding freezes of all salaries as well? Removal of some programs? No new buildings?
Yes. Do what any other business does when revenues are flat. Prioritize and optimize.
-
The tran in Milwaukee was free for a year yet people still drove and paid for busses. There's a segment out there for everyone.
The tram is all but useless though.
-
Didn't mean that aspect. Meant, what do you cut? How do you maintain the same level of education and amenities, and have a decade-long tuition freeze.
The answer is you don't maintain the amenities.
-
The answer is you don't maintain the amenities.
Then students won't come. It is well understood that students prioritize amenities over other aspects. They are willing to pay for those amenities.
Yes. Do what any other business does when revenues are flat. Prioritize and optimize.
Then faculty quit and go to industry. They are already working at a massive discount compared to private industry, and they would be more sought after and competitive than peers in private industry.
Also, businesses either raise prices to increase revenue, or make budget cuts if that cannot happen. The open market says that revenues are not flat, they can increase, because of demand.
I could argue that professional sports tickets are absurd. So they should put a mandatory 10-year freeze on sports tickets and TV packages. They simply can balance that by a mandatory freeze on all wages.
-
Then students won't come. It is well understood that students prioritize amenities over other aspects. They are willing to pay for those amenities.
Then faculty quit and go to industry. They are already working at a massive discount compared to private industry, and they would be more sought after and competitive than peers in private industry.
Also, businesses either raise prices to increase revenue, or make budget cuts if that cannot happen. The open market says that revenues are not flat, they can increase, because of demand.
I could argue that professional sports tickets are absurd. So they should put a mandatory 10-year freeze on sports tickets and TV packages. They simply can balance that by a mandatory freeze on all wages.
Do you really believe those things are similar in any way?
-
While rationalization and cost containment are essential and in order (remember the MU layoffs and program consolidations in August?), no university I'm aware of has successfully 'cost contained' themselves into financial success. What absolutely kills a university (and many, many more are going to die in the next 25 years) is when kids stop attending.
I think many were rightly critical last summer when the university leadership seemingly finally conceded that the projected 2500 annual class size was an unrealistic pipe dream and began to adjust accordingly but you simply cannot successfully go on a full blown austerity program and not lose sufficient luster to avoid the downward spiral. Honestly, Marquette has been fairly proactive and is positioned as well as can be expected given the modern climate.
-
Then students won't come. It is well understood that students prioritize amenities over other aspects. They are willing to pay for those amenities.
Then faculty quit and go to industry. They are already working at a massive discount compared to private industry, and they would be more sought after and competitive than peers in private industry.
Also, businesses either raise prices to increase revenue, or make budget cuts if that cannot happen. The open market says that revenues are not flat, they can increase, because of demand.
I could argue that professional sports tickets are absurd. So they should put a mandatory 10-year freeze on sports tickets and TV packages. They simply can balance that by a mandatory freeze on all wages.
Not to be combative, but I really do believe this: As tuition continues to outstrip inflation and the value of a tuition investment in MU (and all privates / high priced education) decreases, the customer base drops to zero over the long term.
MU's recent cuts and very high acceptance rates seem to be canaries in that coal mine.
So .. no tuition freeze? Ok. I think there's an asteroid coming. How can it be dealt with?
-
We got the letter as well...one more year for him. My daughter’s Xavier acceptance this past weekend offered bigger scholarship, lower tuition (not by much)...the game they all play.
my brother-in-law played some peer institutions off one another to get a higher aid package. MU was one of them (he leveraged Saint Louis with them and got a higher aid package from SLU). He ended up at American after they kept upping their aid package to beat out George Washington. But still, he only got about 50% of his overall costs paid since scholarships rarely cover room and board.
Unless my nephew can get a significant scholarship (trying for a LAX scholarship) MU will not be an option, nor will any private school. Even with the normal aid packages, a private school is still more expensive than in-state tuition and many top-tier state schools with comparable levels of education. MU is not in danger of shutting down like some small schools have but I can foresee difficulty recruiting students, especially as the potential student gets smaller with birth rates dropping.
-
I think many were rightly critical last summer when the university leadership seemingly finally conceded that the projected 2500 annual class size was an unrealistic pipe dream and began to adjust accordingly but you simply cannot successfully go on a full blown austerity program and not lose sufficient luster to avoid the downward spiral. Honestly, Marquette has been fairly proactive and is positioned as well as can be expected given the modern climate.
that's ridiculous. My class was around 1400, I know post-Final Four there was a cap at 1800. But, tuition-driven institutions like MU are trying to increase enrollment as they see every potential student as a revenue generator. The result will be a lower quality of the student body and the quality of education. It will also hurt the school as attrition will increase. Law schools have been paying for this strategy. Valpo is in its final year of existence because they were trying to increase numbers and admitting unqualified students. The same will happen at undergrad institutions.
-
The tran in Milwaukee was free for a year yet people still drove and paid for busses. There's a segment out there for everyone.
Eventually those segments don’t make a big enough market to sustain itself. Not without subsidies, an a private school isn’t getting much of those from taxpayers.
-
Eventually those segments don’t make a big enough market to sustain itself. Not without subsidies, an a private school isn’t getting much of those from taxpayers.
Ok let me put it differently. Public High school is included in taxes and all the good private schools are doing just dandy. Yeah the crappy ones have closed, which in college scenario would be a good thing as it's over saturated anyways.
There's 600 Christian Universities in the US. I would wager that we are in the top 10% at least which, in my opinion, puts us in a category where we'll stick in the "sustainable zone". As long as we stay there, we can pick up the kids who would have otherwise gone to a school below us that risks closing. No different than What's been happening at Christian High Schools.
-
*Seinfeld voice* Why don't they just make the endowment out of the tuition!?
-
We got the letter as well...one more year for him. My daughter’s Xavier acceptance this past weekend offered bigger scholarship, lower tuition (not by much)...the game they all play.
A repeat of what I mentioned here on Scoop last year with my daughter.
-
that still saddling students with a mortgage-worth of nondischargeable debt
To be 'saddled with' student loan debt, one must make the decision to be 'saddled with' student loan debt.
If being 'saddled with' student loan debt isn't something you're comfortable with, don't do it.
-
BigEastDad?
But seriously, if you don't mind sharing, what made you/your daughter look into Xavier, given that you all live in CA?
My daughter at Xavier has two California friends. Before Thanksgiving, her group of friends took the California kids to Target for some winter clothes and boots shopping.
-
Interesting thread, but I can't get past the fact that tuition has risen over $23k since I started in 2003. Yowza.
-
that's ridiculous. My class was around 1400, I know post-Final Four there was a cap at 1800. But, tuition-driven institutions like MU are trying to increase enrollment as they see every potential student as a revenue generator. The result will be a lower quality of the student body and the quality of education. It will also hurt the school as attrition will increase. Law schools have been paying for this strategy. Valpo is in its final year of existence because they were trying to increase numbers and admitting unqualified students. The same will happen at undergrad institutions.
Will Law schools exist in the AI Age? We were recently with our lawyer who is a mentor at John Marshall and his POV is that debt-ridden new lawyers will be 100% replaced by digital machines in the near-future.
-
What happens when public education is “free” for everyone?
Politics. Again. Of course.
-
Does transferring the burden of crippling student loans onto a population who isn't engaging in economically rational decision making fit the mission of the university?
Student loan debt isn't really "crippling" for the vast majority of most students. Furthermore, when you consider the economic benefits of a Marquette bachelor's degree, and the pay-off periods and interest rates of most student loans, it is completely rational decision making.
Does maximizing revenue, playing games with sticker prices and discounts, and after all that still saddling students with a mortgage-worth of nondischargeable debt simply because enrollment hasn't dropped and therefore demand must be there fit with the university's mission?
Oh stop with the hyperbolic nonsense. No one is "playing games" with anything. And no one has a "mortgage-worth" of student loans.
What you resort to that crap your argument sucks.
-
Not to be combative, but I really do believe this: As tuition continues to outstrip inflation and the value of a tuition investment in MU (and all privates / high priced education) decreases, the customer base drops to zero over the long term.
MU's recent cuts and very high acceptance rates seem to be canaries in that coal mine.
So .. no tuition freeze? Ok. I think there's an asteroid coming. How can it be dealt with?
The acceptance rate nonsense has nothing to do with it. That's a targetting issue.
And there isn't an asteroid coming. Chicken little nonsense.
-
While rationalization and cost containment are essential and in order (remember the MU layoffs and program consolidations in August?), no university I'm aware of has successfully 'cost contained' themselves into financial success. What absolutely kills a university (and many, many more are going to die in the next 25 years) is when kids stop attending.
I think many were rightly critical last summer when the university leadership seemingly finally conceded that the projected 2500 annual class size was an unrealistic pipe dream and began to adjust accordingly but you simply cannot successfully go on a full blown austerity program and not lose sufficient luster to avoid the downward spiral. Honestly, Marquette has been fairly proactive and is positioned as well as can be expected given the modern climate.
This is a very good post.
-
While rationalization and cost containment are essential and in order (remember the MU layoffs and program consolidations in August?), no university I'm aware of has successfully 'cost contained' themselves into financial success. What absolutely kills a university (and many, many more are going to die in the next 25 years) is when kids stop attending.
I think many were rightly critical last summer when the university leadership seemingly finally conceded that the projected 2500 annual class size was an unrealistic pipe dream and began to adjust accordingly but you simply cannot successfully go on a full blown austerity program and not lose sufficient luster to avoid the downward spiral. Honestly, Marquette has been fairly proactive and is positioned as well as can be expected given the modern climate.
Back in the 60s when I attended, 25% of my classes were taught be Jesuits which I am sure kept costs down.
-
Student loan debt isn't really "crippling" for the vast majority of most students. Furthermore, when you consider the economic benefits of a Marquette bachelor's degree, and the pay-off periods and interest rates of most student loans, it is completely rational decision making.
Oh stop with the hyperbolic nonsense. No one is "playing games" with anything. And no one has a "mortgage-worth" of student loans.
What you resort to that crap your argument sucks.
Do you have stats on your it's not "crippling" claim?
I had a friend who ended MU plus masters with about 160k in loans. Seems like a mortgage worth to me. Not a great home but still could get something.
After dating a teacher for years and having been in sales for four years at companies like Groupon and Stericycle which were hiring people from Jucos or with simple high school degrees I'd completely disagree about the economic benefits unless you're in finance, a medical field, or take your degree and get a masters (Psych for example). Even a MU/HS/Grade school friend of mine quit his tech job to flip houses and paint because it wasn't financially smart for his to sit making 40k paying off loans, plus rent, commuter costs, insurance, etc.
For many individuals being in a solid trade union would likely yield better or roughly the same returns till at least a college grad reaches their 40s.
-
Two kids at MU for four years and one for 1.5 years over the past decade was a financial ball buster at our house. I love MU a great deal, but the sting of all the checks going their way is going to take awhile to get over. Now almost three years removed from youngest graduating, I thank God that our kids tuition is behind us. Have two grandkids coming early next year and already worrying about they will be able to handle the high cost of education.
-
Two kids at MU for four years and one for 1.5 years over the past decade was a financial ball buster at our house. I love MU a great deal, but the sting of all the checks going their way is going to take awhile to get over. Now almost three years removed from youngest graduating, I thank God that our kids tuition is behind us. Have two grandkids coming early next year and already worrying about they will be able to handle the high cost of education.
I love Marquette. I loved my experience there. I love the people I met there. Loved most of my teachers. It sucks that it will most likely not be an option for my kids.
-
Do you have stats on your it's not "crippling" claim?
I had a friend who ended MU plus masters with about 160k in loans. Seems like a mortgage worth to me. Not a great home but still could get something.
After dating a teacher for years and having been in sales for four years at companies like Groupon and Stericycle which were hiring people from Jucos or with simple high school degrees I'd completely disagree about the economic benefits unless you're in finance, a medical field, or take your degree and get a masters (Psych for example). Even a MU/HS/Grade school friend of mine quit his tech job to flip houses and paint because it wasn't financially smart for his to sit making 40k paying off loans, plus rent, commuter costs, insurance, etc.
For many individuals being in a solid trade union would likely yield better or roughly the same returns till at least a college grad reaches their 40s.
100% agree. The notion that one MUST go to a 4 year college to be successful is wrong.
-
It is sad to say, but I will discourage my kids from going to MU unless they can get a very significant scholarship. We plan on helping out with some of the cost but even then, I think it would be far too much debt for them to take on compared to a state school.
-
Do you have stats on your it's not "crippling" claim?
I had a friend who ended MU plus masters with about 160k in loans. Seems like a mortgage worth to me. Not a great home but still could get something.
After dating a teacher for years and having been in sales for four years at companies like Groupon and Stericycle which were hiring people from Jucos or with simple high school degrees I'd completely disagree about the economic benefits unless you're in finance, a medical field, or take your degree and get a masters (Psych for example). Even a MU/HS/Grade school friend of mine quit his tech job to flip houses and paint because it wasn't financially smart for his to sit making 40k paying off loans, plus rent, commuter costs, insurance, etc.
For many individuals being in a solid trade union would likely yield better or roughly the same returns till at least a college grad reaches their 40s.
"I have a friend" anectodal stories aside, the average loan amount taken out by Marqutte undergraduates a year is $7,800. Times four, that's just over $30,000. If you choose the extended payoff rate, that's $230 a month. That isn't "crippling" - expecially since Marquette's loan default rate is about 2%.
And a liberal arts major is going to make more over the course of their lifetime than someone with a high school education.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/whats-a-liberal-arts-degree-worth-11557501301
-
"I have a friend" anectodal stories aside, the average loan amount taken out by Marqutte undergraduates a year is $7,800. Times four, that's just over $30,000. If you choose the extended payoff rate, that's $230 a month. That isn't "crippling" - expecially since Marquette's loan default rate is about 2%.
And a liberal arts major is going to make more over the course of their lifetime than someone with a high school education.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/whats-a-liberal-arts-degree-worth-11557501301
I agree that $30k isn't crippling. That is actually about what I had. But that doesn't mean it is without negative consequence. It probably delays buying a house. It could delay marriage and starting a family. It did not do any of these for me, but I think it probably does happen pretty often.
Also, if $30k is the average, after accounting for a bunch of no-debt grads (full-ride scholarships and rich parents who pay cash), many MU grads probably have some pretty staggering debt levels. MU should care about every individual who graduates, not just averages.
-
Student loan debt isn't really "crippling" for the vast majority of most students. Furthermore, when you consider the economic benefits of a Marquette bachelor's degree, and the pay-off periods and interest rates of most student loans, it is completely rational decision making.
Oh stop with the hyperbolic nonsense. No one is "playing games" with anything. And no one has a "mortgage-worth" of student loans.
What you resort to that crap your argument sucks.
Then what's the point of charging $50k (wink wink actually $20k)? It's the anti-Kohl's pricing structure. Instead of saying Look it's 70% off! Say Look it costs 70% more than your surprise price at the register! Hope you get a good spin of the mystery student aid wheel!
If *someone* is paying full freight on the $50k sticker price, and that someone goes to medical or law school for a comparable price tag, they are looking at $350k. So... uh... kinda mortgagey, no? And yes, I know law school classmates who've done this. (Obviously they weren't smart, smart people don't go to law school).
And, frankly, the only thing I care about is this: The price of higher education, both at MU and at other schools, is increasing at an unsustainable rate. I think that this rate of increase is bad for society, bad for students, and cannot continue at this rate forever.
Do you think that the rate of increase to the cost of higher education is not high?
-
Then what's the point of charging $50k (wink wink actually $20k)? It's the anti-Kohl's pricing structure. Instead of saying Look it's 70% off! Say Look it costs 70% more than your surprise price at the register! Hope you get a good spin of the mystery student aid wheel!
Hyperbolic nonsense. It's fine.
If *someone* is paying full freight on the $50k sticker price, and that someone goes to medical or law school for a comparable price tag, they are looking at $350k. So... uh... kinda mortgagey, no? And yes, I know law school classmates who've done this. (Obviously they weren't smart, smart people don't go to law school).
First of all, we were talking about undergraduate tuition. So goalpost shifting to professional school debt isn't really what I was talking about. And if someone is paying full freight on $50k, then they can afford it. They aren't taking out loans unless their family simply isn't contributing.
And, frankly, the only thing I care about is this: The price of higher education, both at MU and at other schools, is increasing at an unsustainable rate. I think that this rate of increase is bad for society, bad for students, and cannot continue at this rate forever.
They've been saying it's unsustainable for 20 years. Yet it sustains. Eventually people have to figure out that students are making economic rational decisions because the cost of higher education is worth it. And the more the gap between the value of a HS education and a college education widens, the more costs can and will rise.
Do you think that the rate of increase to the cost of higher education is not high?
I think higher education should cost less. I think states should return to previous levels of investment in public higher education, and the federal government should turn back more of its loan programs into grant programs. Higher education benefits society at large. It's not just an individual benefit.
But that's politics and isn't going to happen. So...
-
I agree that $30k isn't crippling. That is actually about what I had. But that doesn't mean it is without negative consequence. It probably delays buying a house. It could delay marriage and starting a family. It did not do any of these for me, but I think it probably does happen pretty often.
Also, if $30k is the average, after accounting for a bunch of no-debt grads (full-ride scholarships and rich parents who pay cash), many MU grads probably have some pretty staggering debt levels. MU should care about every individual who graduates, not just averages.
The $30,000 is average for those taking out debt.
And yes I agree that it does financially hamper someone. No doubt. But there are solutions for that that I have mentioned elsewhere.
-
Hyperbolic nonsense. It's fine.
First of all, we were talking about undergraduate tuition. So goalpost shifting to professional school debt isn't really what I was talking about. And if someone is paying full freight on $50k, then they can afford it. They aren't taking out loans unless their family simply isn't contributing.
They've been saying it's unsustainable for 20 years. Yet it sustains. Eventually people have to figure out that students are making economic rational decisions because the cost of higher education is worth it. And the more the gap between the value of a HS education and a college education widens, the more costs can and will rise.
I think higher education should cost less. I think states should return to previous levels of investment in public higher education, and the federal government should turn back more of its loan programs into grant programs. Higher education benefits society at large. It's not just an individual benefit.
But that's politics and isn't going to happen. So...
Price paid, and indebtedness incurred, is increasing far faster than the rate of inflation, or the increase in real wages earned. Here's a cite stating that "Student loan debt in the U.S. reached another all-time high of $1.4 trillion in the first quarter (Q1) of 2019, according to Experian data. That's an increase of 116% in 10 years." https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/state-of-student-loan-debt/ (which more or less tracks with what I've noted that my '05 tuition was about half of what they're reporting now).
100+% increases in 10 years time is an accelerating rate of change and, I think, bad.
-
Price paid, and indebtedness incurred, is increasing far faster than the rate of inflation, or the increase in real wages earned. Here's a cite stating that "Student loan debt in the U.S. reached another all-time high of $1.4 trillion in the first quarter (Q1) of 2019, according to Experian data. That's an increase of 116% in 10 years." https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/state-of-student-loan-debt/ (which more or less tracks with what I've noted that my '05 tuition was about half of what they're reporting now).
100+% increases in 10 years time is an accelerating rate of change and, I think, bad.
I don't disagree with you. As I said, I think there should be alternatives to loan programs.
-
I agree that $30k isn't crippling. That is actually about what I had. But that doesn't mean it is without negative consequence. It probably delays buying a house. It could delay marriage and starting a family. It did not do any of these for me, but I think it probably does happen pretty often.
In fact, a student loan establishes a credit and score history that may make it easier to buy a house or condo.
-
What do people think about programs like free school in exchange for X% of earnings for X years? It is just a matter of running the actuary numbers to get to some numbers that average out the cost over a big enough pool of graduates. Grads who become Catholic school teachers will pay back less, but investment bankers will pay back more. Could be a completely voluntary program administered by MU: MU covers cost while students send them checks for X years after graduation. MU could still take students who prefer to take government backed loans. Just another option. I don't really see a downside.
-
"I have a friend" anectodal stories aside, the average loan amount taken out by Marqutte undergraduates a year is $7,800. Times four, that's just over $30,000. If you choose the extended payoff rate, that's $230 a month. That isn't "crippling" - expecially since Marquette's loan default rate is about 2%.
And a liberal arts major is going to make more over the course of their lifetime than someone with a high school education.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/whats-a-liberal-arts-degree-worth-11557501301
Ok, no personal anecdotes though for the record both were true stories.
skipped over the teacher argument though. How should a teacher justify 4 years of loans to basically make crap money According to salary.com and glassdoor a teacher around Milwaukee is looking at 33k-73k. Average journeyman electrician is 41k-83k (Glassdoor) how should Marquette justify telling students to become teachers, then teach kids that education is important when a person less educated is making more money?
Avg starting salary= 45k
Take home pay after taxes= 35.7 (used a tax calculator based on 2018)
Each Paycheck= Roughly 1489
Expenses based on available averages:
230/month loans+1,211/month rent + 33/month auto insurance + 530/month car + Federal government suggests 200-400/month on groceries (for this purpose I used 300) + 50/month utilities + 75/month phone bill + 60/month in internet + 50/month health insurance (plan?) + We've been taught our whole lives to save 20% of each paycheck which'd be 596/month
That's 3075 for expense/recommendations vs 2978.6 earned every month how do you feel that's not crippling?
sure it's easy to tell someone don't get a car but in Milwaukee that's not really feasible plus then you've gotta factor in Public transit. Get a roommate? Some people are introverts or have social anxiety. Phone and internet are pretty much essentials for someone to be successful now unless their back is truly against the wall. Which gets to cutting into savings. Then a person can barely break even so I guess you've got me there!
-
What do people think about programs like free school in exchange for X% of earnings for X years? It is just a matter of running the actuary numbers to get to some numbers that average out the cost over a big enough pool of graduates. Grads who become Catholic school teachers will pay back less, but investment bankers will pay back more. Could be a completely voluntary program administered by MU: MU covers cost while students send them checks for X years after graduation. MU could still take students who prefer to take government backed loans. Just another option. I don't really see a downside.
I like it, but it's new and out there so someone will find a reason to be upset.
-
"I have a friend" anectodal stories aside, the average loan amount taken out by Marqutte undergraduates a year is $7,800. Times four, that's just over $30,000. If you choose the extended payoff rate, that's $230 a month. That isn't "crippling" - expecially since Marquette's loan default rate is about 2%.
And a liberal arts major is going to make more over the course of their lifetime than someone with a high school education.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/whats-a-liberal-arts-degree-worth-11557501301
Is that in federal loans? What about private loans, or parent PLUS loans.
-
Ok, no personal anecdotes though for the record both were true stories.
skipped over the teacher argument though. How should a teacher justify 4 years of loans to basically make crap money According to salary.com and glassdoor a teacher around Milwaukee is looking at 33k-73k. Average journeyman electrician is 41k-83k (Glassdoor) how should Marquette justify telling students to become teachers, then teach kids that education is important when a person less educated is making more money?
Avg starting salary= 45k
Take home pay after taxes= 35.7 (used a tax calculator based on 2018)
Each Paycheck= Roughly 1489
Expenses based on available averages:
230/month loans+1,211/month rent + 33/month auto insurance + 530/month car + Federal government suggests 200-400/month on groceries (for this purpose I used 300) + 50/month utilities + 75/month phone bill + 60/month in internet + 50/month health insurance (plan?) + We've been taught our whole lives to save 20% of each paycheck which'd be 596/month
That's 3075 for expense/recommendations vs 2978.6 earned every month how do you feel that's not crippling?
sure it's easy to tell someone don't get a car but in Milwaukee that's not really feasible plus then you've gotta factor in Public transit. Get a roommate? Some people are introverts or have social anxiety. Phone and internet are pretty much essentials for someone to be successful now unless their back is truly against the wall. Which gets to cutting into savings. Then a person can barely break even so I guess you've got me there!
Teachers have school loan forgiveness programs available to them including 100% forgiveness after 10 years of teaching.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/student-loans/teacher-student-loan-forgiveness/
-
Ok, no personal anecdotes though for the record both were true stories.
skipped over the teacher argument though. How should a teacher justify 4 years of loans to basically make crap money According to salary.com and glassdoor a teacher around Milwaukee is looking at 33k-73k. Average journeyman electrician is 41k-83k (Glassdoor) how should Marquette justify telling students to become teachers, then teach kids that education is important when a person less educated is making more money?
You're assuming that getting an education is solely about the professional training you receive. You are also assuming that a teacher will always be a teacher.
-
Teachers have school loan forgiveness programs available to them including 100% forgiveness after 10 years of teaching.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/student-loans/teacher-student-loan-forgiveness/
That almost never actually happens in practice
-
Teachers have school loan forgiveness programs available to them including 100% forgiveness after 10 years of teaching.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/student-loans/teacher-student-loan-forgiveness/
so only 10yrs of living like crap and boom you're 33/32 better hustle to save money now that you can afford to walk down the aisle, get a house and child after living below your means for a decade.
-
You're assuming that getting an education is solely about the professional training you receive. You are also assuming that a teacher will always be a teacher.
Well they'll probably be forced out from it due to it being unsustainable. But then they get a new corporate starting salary which can be less but certainly won't be extensively more as they don't have corporate experience nor specialized training from an education degree. So now choose door 1: crappy entry level job paying about the same door 2: take out more loans so you can try to apply that math specialty as a teacher to analytics or finance. Or that English specialty to being a copywriter
-
Teachers have school loan forgiveness programs available to them including 100% forgiveness after 10 years of teaching.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/student-loans/teacher-student-loan-forgiveness/
Is that one of the loan forgiveness programs that gets treated as income on taxes? That was a fun day in law school during tax when all the people who planned on doing PD work learned that after doing income-based repayment and not actually reducing the principal balance owed, the loan forgiveness at the end of public service career was treated as gross income. I didn't do that program so haven't kept up with whether it has changed.
-
Not to be combative, but I really do believe this: As tuition continues to outstrip inflation and the value of a tuition investment in MU (and all privates / high priced education) decreases, the customer base drops to zero over the long term.
MU's recent cuts and very high acceptance rates seem to be canaries in that coal mine.
So .. no tuition freeze? Ok. I think there's an asteroid coming. How can it be dealt with?
I actually don't find this combative at all. It is fairly accurate assessment of long term prognosis.
Cutting salaries though is not really feasible, education would suffer tremendously.
But a "tuition freeze" is not the only way to deal with this.
The reason tuition increases are now under 5% is because they were aware of the long term issues. The reason they are able to do that, and still increase revenue is because they are now targeting other lucrative income streams. The current big one is "continuing education" for local individuals.
The current long term plan for most Universities is to further develop high revenue continuing education streams, and developing some online curricula, particularly in "continuing education". That way the can keep tuition under control, without affecting education or the University mission.
Minor disagreement regarding "canaries in a coal mine". You are misinterpreting stats regarding the high acceptance rates.
-
so only 10yrs of living like crap and boom you're 33/32 better hustle to save money now that you can afford to walk down the aisle, get a house and child after living below your means for a decade.
No, you do what all the teachers do and delay starting or make low loan payments until you are 32 and then you are debt free. In the summers, work at Fed Ex and rake in the cash. What else would you want? Hell, if the teachers were smart, they took more on their loans and invested the extra loan amount above tuition for ten years.
Guess what, we bought our first house about that same age. Kids then followed. We were lucky to get a fixed, first time homeowners loan from HUD at 13.5% (not kidding on the lucky part). My wife worked in a non-profit but we still had to pay off her student loan at rates above 10%. No exemptions back then. It sucked too...who knows how many times we had to refinance those house loans and pay points each time as interest rates came down.
I know this response is sweater-vestish, but each generation has its own crosses to bear. If no one can pay for tuition, then costs will come down. If they can, costs will go up. You adapt. It’s scary because you see all the costs with loans at the start, and not the appreciation of benefits till later. But, I can honestly say that a low cost student loan will provide most if not all a better investment return than just about anything.
-
Ok, no personal anecdotes though for the record both were true stories.
skipped over the teacher argument though. How should a teacher justify 4 years of loans to basically make crap money According to salary.com and glassdoor a teacher around Milwaukee is looking at 33k-73k. Average journeyman electrician is 41k-83k (Glassdoor) how should Marquette justify telling students to become teachers, then teach kids that education is important when a person less educated is making more money?
Avg starting salary= 45k
Take home pay after taxes= 35.7 (used a tax calculator based on 2018)
Each Paycheck= Roughly 1489
Expenses based on available averages:
230/month loans+1,211/month rent + 33/month auto insurance + 530/month car + Federal government suggests 200-400/month on groceries (for this purpose I used 300) + 50/month utilities + 75/month phone bill + 60/month in internet + 50/month health insurance (plan?) + We've been taught our whole lives to save 20% of each paycheck which'd be 596/month
That's 3075 for expense/recommendations vs 2978.6 earned every month how do you feel that's not crippling?
sure it's easy to tell someone don't get a car but in Milwaukee that's not really feasible plus then you've gotta factor in Public transit. Get a roommate? Some people are introverts or have social anxiety. Phone and internet are pretty much essentials for someone to be successful now unless their back is truly against the wall. Which gets to cutting into savings. Then a person can barely break even so I guess you've got me there!
So I didn't read the whole thing but why do you think the College of Education is getting dissolved? The class size is down to about 30 kids per year. Consumers aren't stupid. Now the same argument can be made that basically any soft science Liberal Arts degree should face a similar fate but that just doesn't fit any reasonable Jesuit mission statement.
-
Is that one of the loan forgiveness programs that gets treated as income on taxes? That was a fun day in law school during tax when all the people who planned on doing PD work learned that after doing income-based repayment and not actually reducing the principal balance owed, the loan forgiveness at the end of public service career was treated as gross income. I didn't do that program so haven't kept up with whether it has changed.
Yes, it’s taxable now. Let’s see if the program continues after the election too.
https://www.savingforcollege.com/article/is-student-loan-forgiveness-taxable
-
So marrying this with the thread showing Tom Hagerty's old pictures along Wells.
You kids with your brick oven pizza in Commons and snowplow parents solving every little challenge you've ever encountered have no idea how awesome it was to be 18 and legal in the 'naked city' along the north edge of campus with at least 20 Wells and State Street taverns to choose from. It would kill me in one weekend nowadays. Youth is wasted on the young.
-
Very, very easily. The school isn't issuing the loan. The school collects the money on the front end and (aside from a general desire for its students not to default) is not impacted by future failures to repay. The feds guarantee the loans, so when kids default, the school isn't holding the bag. They aren't financiers.
In fact, this is ABSOLUTELY THE NUMBER ONE reason why tuition inflates at such a disgusting rate. Schools have no incentive to control prices. Kids will just take a loan because school decisions are pathos-driven, not economic-analysis driven, and the school has its money regardless of what debt the kid is ultimately burdened with (or who the loan issuer is that gets screwed... probably the federal government, so all of us). Why charge $1.00 if people will happily fork over $10.00? And the year after that, why not $20.00, and so on and so on.
It's the perfect storm of price elasticity x moral hazard.
this is "F" ing right on!!
btw, i did not get any discounts or grants or schollies, or...nor did my 2 kids, which was really me again :'(
-
bro galway, re: teachers-point well taken, BUT they do have pretty good retirement plans and medical insurance. i know i'm old, but i pay over $2400/mo, for my bride and i
-
Is that one of the loan forgiveness programs that gets treated as income on taxes? That was a fun day in law school during tax when all the people who planned on doing PD work learned that after doing income-based repayment and not actually reducing the principal balance owed, the loan forgiveness at the end of public service career was treated as gross income. I didn't do that program so haven't kept up with whether it has changed.
you mean the loan forgiveness program that never was? That was a fun day to get the rejection letter because my federal loans were taken out under a different name. But then again, I'm among the 99% who were eligible for the program and got hosed so I cannot be too mad, right?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2019/09/09/99-rejected-for-student-loan-forgiveness-again/
-
Expenses based on available averages:
230/month loans+1,211/month rent + 33/month auto insurance + 530/month car + Federal government suggests 200-400/month on groceries (for this purpose I used 300) + 50/month utilities + 75/month phone bill + 60/month in internet + 50/month health insurance (plan?) + We've been taught our whole lives to save 20% of each paycheck which'd be 596/month
I am not sure where you got the information that the average apartment in Milwaukee is $1200 a month, but I I can promise no young teacher is living in it (at least not a smart one). You can share a beautiful 2 bedroom apartment in Tosa for under $500 a person. A couple of years ago, my daughter had a 1 bedroom on the East Side that had a view of the Lake. She was paying $800.
But your point is made. Starting pay for teachers sucks.
-
Yes, it’s taxable now. Let’s see if the program continues after the election too.
https://www.savingforcollege.com/article/is-student-loan-forgiveness-taxable
Forgiveness of debt has always been taxable income, no matter what kind. They don't tell you that in those "Let us renegotiate your credit card bills" ads.
Even so, paying tax on $30,000 is still a better deal than paying back $30,000 in loan payments plus interest.
-
I am not sure where you got the information that the average apartment in Milwaukee is $1200 a month, but I I can promise no young teacher is living in it (at least not a smart one). You can share a beautiful 2 bedroom apartment in Tosa for under $500 a person. A couple of years ago, my daughter had a 1 bedroom on the East Side that had a view of the Lake. She was paying $800.
But your point is made. Starting pay for teachers sucks.
Yeah butt, probably der wuz no underground heated parking and da concierge sucked, aina?
-
I am not sure where you got the information that the average apartment in Milwaukee is $1200 a month, but I I can promise no young teacher is living in it (at least not a smart one). You can share a beautiful 2 bedroom apartment in Tosa for under $500 a person. A couple of years ago, my daughter had a 1 bedroom on the East Side that had a view of the Lake. She was paying $800.
But your point is made. Starting pay for teachers sucks.
Available averages. I'm sure I could find a basement apartment prone to mold for 350 (actually I know I can) but was basing it off average price of a 1bdrm in mke proper.
-
Teachers have school loan forgiveness programs available to them including 100% forgiveness after 10 years of teaching.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/student-loans/teacher-student-loan-forgiveness/
Uh...
Nearly all of those eligible got rejected.
-
Well they'll probably be forced out from it due to it being unsustainable. But then they get a new corporate starting salary which can be less but certainly won't be extensively more as they don't have corporate experience nor specialized training from an education degree. So now choose door 1: crappy entry level job paying about the same door 2: take out more loans so you can try to apply that math specialty as a teacher to analytics or finance. Or that English specialty to being a copywriter
Well those aren’t the only options.
-
bro galway, re: teachers-point well taken, BUT they do have pretty good retirement plans and medical insurance. i know i'm old, but i pay over $2400/mo, for my bride and i
True about retirement plans... if they get there after such crape salary. Medical I will disagree, I've been a Maketing Analyst for CDW for a quarter and am getting better medical than my gf who's been with MPS for 4yrs.
-
No, you do what all the teachers do and delay starting or make low loan payments until you are 32 and then you are debt free. In the summers, work at Fed Ex and rake in the cash. What else would you want? Hell, if the teachers were smart, they took more on their loans and invested the extra loan amount above tuition for ten years.
Guess what, we bought our first house about that same age. Kids then followed. We were lucky to get a fixed, first time homeowners loan from HUD at 13.5% (not kidding on the lucky part). My wife worked in a non-profit but we still had to pay off her student loan at rates above 10%. No exemptions back then. It sucked too...who knows how many times we had to refinance those house loans and pay points each time as interest rates came down.
I know this response is sweater-vestish, but each generation has its own crosses to bear. If no one can pay for tuition, then costs will come down. If they can, costs will go up. You adapt. It’s scary because you see all the costs with loans at the start, and not the appreciation of benefits till later. But, I can honestly say that a low cost student loan will provide most if not all a better investment return than just about anything.
Congrats you're one of the few "sweater vesters" who aren't upset at millenials and Zs for not investing in real estate in their 20s then.
As far as summers off, last year MPS had a week of snow days leading to June break. Started the first week of August. Keep in mind it's extremely frowned upon to take a vacation as a teacher during the year. Are you going to say that you've never felt the need for a break and taken a vacation at your job?
I agree about every generation. I am NOT a millenial saying we've had it harder. Only that college cost is increasing at a faster rate than starting salaries are and to get back to disagreeing with Sultan, it does cripple people right out of college.
-
People seem to be hung up on my example being a teacher. So I can do the following
Groupon Sales starting base pay is 30k and you cannot make commissions for 6 months. Most are lucky to break 50k.
Stericycle sales base pay is 36.5k. You cannot earn commission for 4 months.
I know these are Chicago companies but it gets back to my actual point about starting salaries not keeping up with COL and then you add on colleges increasing at a faster rate than salaries increasing you start to see why so many in my age bracket and the one under feel slighted.
-
People seem to be hung up on my example being a teacher. So I can do the following
Groupon Sales starting base pay is 30k and you cannot make commissions for 6 months. Most are lucky to break 50k.
Stericycle sales base pay is 36.5k. You cannot earn commission for 4 months.
I know these are Chicago companies but it gets back to my actual point about starting salaries not keeping up with COL and then you add on colleges increasing at a faster rate than salaries increasing you start to see why so many in my age bracket and the one under feel slighted.
I’m sorry but why are those crappy jobs being used to set the market as an example? I mean I could point to kid #2 who was a non STEM, non business major who is making well north of that in his first job but I don’t think that is necessarily indicative of anything.
-
I’m sorry but why are those crappy jobs being used to set the market as an example? I mean I could point to kid #2 who was a non STEM, non business major who is making well north of that in his first job but I don’t think that is necessarily indicative of anything.
I'm sure you can. But does that company have a sales force north of 1,000 kids starting their first job? Of course there's loads of outliers out there. That's why I pointed to companies that have massive sales floors taking advantage of immediate post grads.
Edit: Here's an article from my Junior year showing MU grads make an average of 46 right out of college so it's not just teachers.
https://marquettewire.org/3797335/tribune/tribune-news/paycheck-mu-grads-earn-third-biggest-paychecks-bg1-ab2-td3/
-
I will not bring politics in. That said, I love teachers.
-
Politics. Again. Of course.
At. A. Minimum. 10. Other. Posts. Here. Fit. Mold. You. Say. Nothing. Of. Course. Again. Of. Course. Of. Course.
-
I'm sure you can. But does that company have a sales force north of 1,000 kids starting their first job?
No because he got a better job than that.
-
And by the way, an average salary of $46,000 can pay the average student loan debt of a Marquette graduate quite easily.
-
And by the way, an average salary of $46,000 can pay the average student loan debt of a Marquette graduate quite easily.
It can?
-
It can?
Yep. We have already established that with the extended payment plan, that's a payment of $230 per month. A salary of $3,800 per month will net you about $2,950 in Wisconsin assuming you are single and taking one allowance. That leaves $2,700 for the rest of the month. Even with a $1,000 per month rent payment, that is easily doable.
-
And by the way, an average salary of $46,000 can pay the average student loan debt of a Marquette graduate quite easily.
I'm pretty sure I just ran the numbers at 45k in Milwaukee and it showed that it can be done but not "easily" and is much tougher than you give it credit
No because he got a better job than that.
So your answer to the thousands of post grads working those jobs is "get a better job"?
-
I'm pretty sure I just ran the numbers at 45k in Milwaukee and it showed that it can be done but not "easily" and is much tougher than you give it credit
Yeah I don't think so.
So your answer to the thousands of post grads working those jobs is "get a better job"?
Yes. Those jobs don't reflect the education you have earned.
-
It can?
$30K student loan with 10 year payoff at today’s rate is $310 a month. I don’t know if easily is the word, but definitely doable.
I paid off mine at interest rates around 6% and making less than $25k first few years after grad school. It means not having a lot of nice things, but part of growing up.
-
Do you have stats on your it's not "crippling" claim?
I had a friend who ended MU plus masters with about 160k in loans. Seems like a mortgage worth to me. Not a great home but still could get something.
After dating a teacher for years and having been in sales for four years at companies like Groupon and Stericycle which were hiring people from Jucos or with simple high school degrees I'd completely disagree about the economic benefits unless you're in finance, a medical field, or take your degree and get a masters (Psych for example). Even a MU/HS/Grade school friend of mine quit his tech job to flip houses and paint because it wasn't financially smart for his to sit making 40k paying off loans, plus rent, commuter costs, insurance, etc.
For many individuals being in a solid trade union would likely yield better or roughly the same returns till at least a college grad reaches their 40s.
Indeed. And it doesn't even have to be the trades.
-
Indeed. And it doesn't even have to be the trades.
Or in a union
-
Yeah I don't think so.
Yes. Those jobs don't reflect the education you have earned.
You can't just not think so. They were literally laid out. Only difference is the average salary was 1k higher than what I laid it out as.
That's an idiotic response. The market for jobs indicative of the "education you have earned" right out of college is saturated. And due to living expenses it makes finding a job asap necessary so you can't take the time to apply to 600 jobs over the course of a year.
-
I'm pretty sure I just ran the numbers at 45k in Milwaukee and it showed that it can be done but not "easily" and is much tougher than you give it credit
So your answer to the thousands of post grads working those jobs is "get a better job"?
FWIW, my answer would be "college is what you make it."
Many students simply "show up" to their classes and skate by. This will likely not lead to a high-paying job.
-
This is a useless discussion. I'm arguing with a guy who is defending his job sector but has no grasp on what being a post grad is like currently and ignored a whole balance sheet I tried to put together.
FWIW, my answer would be "college is what you make it."
Many students simply "show up" to their classes and skate by. This will likely not lead to a high-paying job.
This is a much better answer than sultans and is true. Hindsight is 20/20
Unfortunately that answer doesn't make it "easy" to live it just justifies why you make less than your peers that were STEM majors
-
Average salary for a post grad in Wisconsin 39k. If only all these people just thought "hey why don't I get a better job that are clearly just hanging on trees" surely it's not that there's less of those jobs available because that'd mean there's a logical reason college grads are taking these jobs to live
https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/How-Much-Does-a-College-Grads-Make-a-Year--in-Wisconsin
-
$30K student loan with 10 year payoff at today’s rate is $310 a month. I don’t know if easily is the word, but definitely doable.
I paid off mine at interest rates around 6% and making less than $25k first few years after grad school. It means not having a lot of nice things, but part of growing up.
This is something I agree with. It's doable, you work hard, do cheap dates, look hard for a cheap apartment and it's doable but I get pissed at the assertion is "easy"
-
And by the way, an average salary of $46,000 can pay the average student loan debt of a Marquette graduate quite easily.
I thought I saw right here on Scoop that the average salary for an MU grad last year was $56K or $58K. That $45K is from 2011.
EDIT: Here is the data from 2017-18
https://www.marquette.edu/business/career-center/graduate-outcome.php
Average $53,500
-
I thought I saw right here on Scoop that the average salary for an MU grad last year was $56K or $58K. That $45K is from 2011.
I did qualify that the article was from my jr year when I posted it
-
This is something I agree with. It's doable, you work hard, do cheap dates, look hard for a cheap apartment and it's doable but I get pissed at the assertion is "easy"
All comes down to what you define as easy and personal life experiences. When facing huge medical bills, or putting your own kids through college....someone of Sultan’s vintage may say it was easy. Someone else might say it is really hard.
No right answer here...you are right, Sultan is right...just depend# on definitions and gradients.
-
I did qualify that the article was from my jr year when I posted it
Understood. But then the debate was whether or not that was enough to live on and service the average debt load, so I looked up more recent data. An extra $8K - $9K per year is pretty significant in those terms.
-
Norbies grads just do better than most recent grads. The Harvard of Depere.
-
You can't just not think so. They were literally laid out. Only difference is the average salary was 1k higher than what I laid it out as.
What you laid out was wrong because it didn't discuss completely viable alternatives.
That's an idiotic response. The market for jobs indicative of the "education you have earned" right out of college is saturated. And due to living expenses it makes finding a job asap necessary so you can't take the time to apply to 600 jobs over the course of a year.
It's not an idiotic response. And the market for jobs right out of college where you can utilize the education you have earned is not saturated. Certainly not in Chicago and Milwaukee. Your experience doesn't match reality.
-
Sample size of one, so take it for what it is worth, but I came out of MU with a debt-to-starting-salary ratio of ~56%. I found it not too difficult to pay off my loans ahead of time.
Using the data in this thread, the average grad comes out with $31,200 in debt and has a starting salary of ~$53,500, or a 58% ratio.
-
Understood. But then the debate was whether or not that was enough to live on and service the average debt load, so I looked up more recent data. An extra $8K - $9K per year is pretty significant in those terms.
From what I'm seeing on us news (assuming that's what you're using) they qualify starting salary as having had three years of postgrad work. If you'd like to confirm click on the "i" next to it.
But given that stat I'll amend my argument to the first three years aren't easy.
-
I did find this link quite interesting, as posted above.. https://www.marquette.edu/business/career-center/graduate-outcome.php
I think it's also important to remember that when we're talking about the "average grad" making $xx thousand when they get out .. that ~HALF are making less than that. The point being .. there are plenty of MU fresh grads that aren't on easy street.
The other link has college grads making less. From the link, it doesn't say "starting salaries" which makes me wonder if this is for all college grads -- (the numbers are so low, that's hard to believe.)
https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/How-Much-Does-a-College-Grads-Make-a-Year--in-Wisconsin
It has the Average at $39k .. but roughly half are making $5-10-15k less than that
-
I did find this link quite interesting, as posted above.. https://www.marquette.edu/business/career-center/graduate-outcome.php
I think it's also important to remember that when we're talking about the "average grad" making $xx thousand when they get out .. that ~HALF are making less than that. The point being .. there are plenty of MU fresh grads that aren't on easy street.
That's actually not what that means.
-
That's actually not what that means.
https://youtu.be/8rh6qqsmxNs
Its George Carlin, so NSFW.
-
https://youtu.be/8rh6qqsmxNs
Its George Carlin, so NSFW.
If you are criticizing me, you should probably look up the difference between average and median. And that's important. Roughly 25% of Marquette's graduates are from business and engineering. If those alumni are making $53,000 on average, that means the balance are making just over $43,000 to reach an average of $46,000. (Again, very rough numbers.) So that would mean 75% are making less than average, but they aren't making significantly less.
-
If you are criticizing me, you should probably look up the difference between average and median. And that's important. Roughly 25% of Marquette's graduates are from business and engineering. If those alumni are making $53,000 on average, that means the balance are making just over $43,000 to reach an average of $46,000. (Again, very rough numbers.) So that would mean 75% are making less than average, but they aren't making significantly less.
Indeed. I would add that incomes at the bottom are probably bounded but the salaries at the top are not, e.g., the top AIM students make very good salaries, pulling up the average.
BTW, not only is George Carlin wholly unfunny, he's flat out wrong--dare I say stupid?
-
Indeed. I would add that incomes at the bottom are probably bounded but the salaries at the top are not, e.g., the top AIM students make very good salaries, pulling up the average.
Exactly.
-
https://youtu.be/8rh6qqsmxNs
Its George Carlin, so NSFW.
Pretty sure George was referencing this board with those comments.
-
If you are criticizing me, you should probably look up the difference between average and median. And that's important. Roughly 25% of Marquette's graduates are from business and engineering. If those alumni are making $53,000 on average, that means the balance are making just over $43,000 to reach an average of $46,000. (Again, very rough numbers.) So that would mean 75% are making less than average, but they aren't making significantly less.
Really? You need to chill out. It wasn't to criticize you. It was because it is funny. Holy Crap. I guess it was aimed at you, though that wasn't the original intention.
-
Really? You need to chill out. It wasn't to criticize you. It was because it is funny. Holy Crap. I guess it was aimed at you, though that wasn't the original intention.
Well, you quoted me so sorry for not understanding your intent.
-
Well, you quoted me so sorry for not understanding your intent.
Yeah, just always assume you're under attack.
And you should look up averages apparently. Mean, median and mode. All averages. Different things, but all averages.
-
Yeah, just always assume you're under attack.
First, I qualified my statement. "If..." Second, I apologized for misunderstanding your intent. It's probably best that you STFU about it now.
And you should look up averages apparently. Mean, median and mode. All averages. Different things, but all averages.
Not necessarily. Definitions include what you are mentioning, but also simply the arithmatic mean.
-
First, I qualified my statement. "If..." Second, I apologized for misunderstanding your intent. It's probably best that you STFU about it now.
Not necessarily. Definitions include what you are mentioning, but also simply the arithmatic mean.
Hahaha. Ok. Nice apology. I misunderstood its intent and sincerity.
-
I did find this link quite interesting, as posted above.. https://www.marquette.edu/business/career-center/graduate-outcome.php
I think it's also important to remember that when we're talking about the "average grad" making $xx thousand when they get out .. that ~HALF are making less than that. The point being .. there are plenty of MU fresh grads that aren't on easy street.
Yeah, and there could be reporting bias if, as it appears, reporting was completely voluntary.
But if you are on the low end of the reported range at $18K and you are taking on loans above the average, you're doing it wrong.
-
Nobody pays sticker
----
Private Colleges Offer Record Discounts as Tuition Costs Rise
Big grants for freshmen help students but hurt schools’ budgets
https://www.wsj.com/articles/private-colleges-offer-record-discount-prices-as-tuition-costs-rise-11557428871?mod=article_inline
Tuition-discount rates for first-time, full-time freshmen hit a record 52.2% in the current school year, according to preliminary results from a National Association of College and University Business Officers survey of 405 private, nonprofit schools. The 2018-2019 figure is up from 50.5% in the previous year.
Over the past decade, the average institutional grant for first-time freshmen has increased to more than $20,000 this year, up from about $10,600 in the 2008-09 year. About 90% of freshmen received grant aid from private colleges and universities in the 2018-2019 year, according to the study. Those discounts, on average, cover about 60% of the tuition and fee sticker price.
-
Discount rates aren’t really a great measure but yeah. Don’t worry about tuition.
-
Lots of discounts. My daughter accepted to DePaul yesterday....huge discount. Xavier the same. Waiting for the others.
-
A friend of Porky’s who works in higher education here in the Northeast (where the avg pvt school tuition sticker is typically $10K above their midwestern peers) believes it’s inevitable that the U.S. will adopt the European model where bachelors degrees are completed in 3 yrs. It won’t solve runaway inflation but at least it’s one less year to pay for. This individual works in finance for a prestigious LAC in the greater NYC area that’s almost $70K all in and believes it’s inevitable and about 5-7 yrs away away. Even with the wealth concentration in the region, their percentage of full pay families has been declining precipitously for years. When costs are out of reach even for high income upper middle class families (if not the outright wealthy) something’s gotta give.
-
A friend of Porky’s who works in higher education here in the Northeast (where the avg pvt school tuition sticker is typically $10K above their midwestern peers) believes it’s inevitable that the U.S. will adopt the European model where bachelors degrees are completed in 3 yrs. It won’t solve runaway inflation but least it’s one less year to pay for. This individual works in finance for a prestigious LAC in the greater NYC area that’s almost $70K all in and believes it’s inevitable and about 5-7 yrs away away. Even with the wealth concentration in the region, their percentage of full pay families has been declining precipitously for years. When costs are out of reach even for high income upper middle class families (if not the outright wealthy) something’s gotta give.
Cut those salaries, drop anything with “studies” in it, etc.....it will go over really well.
-
Even he has to pay 44 grand?
Just catching up on this. $44K a year is a lot on a carpenter’s salary.
-
Related to the discussion, aprx 50% of student loan borrowers aren't paying down their balances: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/16/student-loan-debt-is-over-1point6-trillion-and-balances-arent-going-down.html
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/2q97YCXcLOlkoR2jKKEMQ-wkG9k=/0x0:900x500/1200x800/filters:focal(378x178:522x322)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/49493993/this-is-fine.0.jpg)
-
So because people aren’t honoring their debts they freely chose to take, I have to bail them out? Sorry....no dice.
I paid mine back at a rate way higher than today’s rate and so have millions of others.
I can think of no better idea than telling a bunch of 20 year olds that your financial commitments are waived away by a magic wand so that in their 30’s they will expect the same thing with the homes they buy. Bad. Bad. Bad.
-
So because people aren’t honoring their debts they freely chose to take, I have to bail them out? Sorry....no dice.
I paid mine back at a rate way higher than today’s rate and so have millions of others.
I can think of no better idea than telling a bunch of 20 year olds that your financial commitments are waived away by a magic wand so that in their 30’s they will expect the same thing with the homes they buy. Bad. Bad. Bad.
we don't agree on much politically, Cheeks, but I agree with you here (and likely in opposing the individual advocating this). While I still have outstanding debt from grad school my wife and I have paid off a significant chunk.
I was supposed to qualify for the PSLF program (after working and paying off my loans for 10 years) but like 99% of applicants, I was denied without explanation. But, I had to do something to qualify. My father took a job in and moved our family to a place he didn't want to live to qualify for a loan forgiveness program and had 50% forgiven when he met the qualifications for it. If there is going to be any loan forgiveness it should be in a similar vein, not "no more loans, you're welcome."
-
So because people aren’t honoring their debts they freely chose to take, I have to bail them out? Sorry....no dice.
I paid mine back at a rate way higher than today’s rate and so have millions of others.
I can think of no better idea than telling a bunch of 20 year olds that your financial commitments are waived away by a magic wand so that in their 30’s they will expect the same thing with the homes they buy. Bad. Bad. Bad.
Well we still have farmers planting stuff even though we keep bailing them out...
Yeah, yeah. I know it's not the same thing. But we seem to want to spend money in the name of keeping a healthy economy when it comes to one class of people, yet totally want to overlook the economic benefits when it comes to another.
-
Wasn't advocating bailing out the endebted, merely pointing out that this supports my contention that the cost of education is a systemic problem, and no amount of handwaving changes that.
Anecdotal but a couple of my lawschool classmates posted this on FB today: "Sometimes when I want a good laugh, I go see how much my loans have increased since I graduated law school. Despite my diligent, on-time payments every month for the last almost eight years, my loans have increased $52,725.21." And another classmate commented "Mine are up about $80k since graduation even though I pay every month."
-
This was in today's paper.
-
Nobody pays sticker
----
Private Colleges Offer Record Discounts as Tuition Costs Rise
Big grants for freshmen help students but hurt schools’ budgets
https://www.wsj.com/articles/private-colleges-offer-record-discount-prices-as-tuition-costs-rise-11557428871?mod=article_inline
Tuition-discount rates for first-time, full-time freshmen hit a record 52.2% in the current school year, according to preliminary results from a National Association of College and University Business Officers survey of 405 private, nonprofit schools. The 2018-2019 figure is up from 50.5% in the previous year.
Over the past decade, the average institutional grant for first-time freshmen has increased to more than $20,000 this year, up from about $10,600 in the 2008-09 year. About 90% of freshmen received grant aid from private colleges and universities in the 2018-2019 year, according to the study. Those discounts, on average, cover about 60% of the tuition and fee sticker price.
then my whole family, including father, brother, sister-in-law, and both sons are all nobodys ::) i guess someone's gotta pay the bills
-
Well we still have farmers planting stuff even though we keep bailing them out...
Yeah, yeah. I know it's not the same thing. But we seem to want to spend money in the name of keeping a healthy economy when it comes to one class of people, yet totally want to overlook the economic benefits when it comes to another.
We pay people to do a lot of things, including not working....but that's another story. And yes, sorry but there are different treatments for different people often based on many things. Your creditworthiness dictates what kind of loan you can get...how much and what rate....yes, they are treated differently that other people. One size fits all doesn't work. That is just one example. Fairness sounds great, it's also financially suicidal.
Loans are a fundamental aspect of responsibility, and if we are going to teach people to spend on things (education, homes, cars, etc) and Sammy is going to say you don't have to pay for it....we're finished financially as an economy. We've already seen through our history on multiple occasions what happens when we over-lend, reduce requirements, and induce people to buy stuff they cannot afford. Quite frankly, we are doing this in the educational system, too....and the schools are LARGELY a part of the problem. Charging outrageous amounts of money for degrees that have no ROI while students accumulate debt along the way.
-
Well we still have farmers planting stuff even though we keep bailing them out...
Yeah, yeah. I know it's not the same thing. But we seem to want to spend money in the name of keeping a healthy economy when it comes to one class of people, yet totally want to overlook the economic benefits when it comes to another.
Farmers. Automakers. Banks. Etc.
-
Farmers. Automakers. Banks. Etc.
Right. But somehow it's a moral hazard because its a loan and not a handout. ::)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of it. But the mental gymnastics that people go through to justify helping some while denying others is amazing.
-
Let’s look at the numbers.
65% of students graduate with $28K in debt. 35% with no debt. So all graduates recently have $18k on avg with 65% holding the notes. 10 years to pay off that amount at very low rates. Avg college grad starting salary more than accommodates for this debt payment along with other life essentials.
This idea is simply bad policy. Worse, it punishes those who already paid theirs off...teaches a terrible lesson on responsibility. It also punishes those that took on more debt and joined professional career path...doctor, lawyer, dentists, etc...you are screwed because all the debt you risked meant you landed a great high paying career as a result of your education...sorry Charlie, you don’t qualify. But hey, if you are that Philosophy and Baltic Studies major, step right up for some goodies.
-
What percentage of current students are paying full sticker price?
I thought I read somewhere that it was less than half and the "average" tuition bill is in the high $20k?
No student at MU pays full sticker price. MU doesn't publicly disclose its full tuition cost; the face value of tuition is already discounted by drawing from the endowment in real-time. This is called the 'discount rate' - the % at which MU buys down tuition for any student. For example, the Marquette Fund and 'immediate need scholarships' that are created/funded go directly to off-set tuition (as does a draw from the endowment).
MU has been trying for some time to decrease it's 'discount rate' to help its endowment grow. This is not an MU issue, btw -- every (at least) private university grapples w this same challenge.
-
We pay people to do a lot of things, including not working....but that's another story. And yes, sorry but there are different treatments for different people often based on many things. Your creditworthiness dictates what kind of loan you can get...how much and what rate....yes, they are treated differently that other people. One size fits all doesn't work. That is just one example. Fairness sounds great, it's also financially suicidal.
Loans are a fundamental aspect of responsibility, and if we are going to teach people to spend on things (education, homes, cars, etc) and Sammy is going to say you don't have to pay for it....we're finished financially as an economy. We've already seen through our history on multiple occasions what happens when we over-lend, reduce requirements, and induce people to buy stuff they cannot afford. Quite frankly, we are doing this in the educational system, too....and the schools are LARGELY a part of the problem. Charging outrageous amounts of money for degrees that have no ROI while students accumulate debt along the way.
Word.
-
No student at MU pays full sticker price. MU doesn't publicly disclose its full tuition cost; the face value of tuition is already discounted by drawing from the endowment in real-time. This is called the 'discount rate' - the % at which MU buys down tuition for any student. For example, the Marquette Fund and 'immediate need scholarships' that are created/funded go directly to off-set tuition (as does a draw from the endowment).
MU has been trying for some time to decrease it's 'discount rate' to help its endowment grow. This is not an MU issue, btw -- every (at least) private university grapples w this same challenge.
This isn't entirely accurate. Marquette does most definitely disclose its full tuition cost. It's right here:
https://www.marquette.edu/about/tuition-costs.php
What Marquette doesn't disclose is its "net tution revenue," (ie, how much money it actually receives per student after scholarships) Here is likely how this works using made up numbers to get the point across:
Revenue
Tuition & fees: $100,000,000
Less: Scholarships (40,000,000)
Net Tuition and fees: 60,000,000
Endowment income 10,000,000
Other Revenue 50,000,000
Total Revenue 120,000,000
In other words, the endowment is going to be used to offset scholarships only if the specific donor endowments are to be used for scholarships. Otherwise, the difference is just part of their operating income
-
This isn't entirely accurate. Marquette does most definitely disclose its full tuition cost. It's right here:
thanks, i didn't realize that.
-
This was an interesting article on Purdue / tuition.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/04/mitch-daniels-purdue/606772/
-
This was an interesting article on Purdue / tuition.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/04/mitch-daniels-purdue/606772/
UW System has had a tuition freeze for in-state undergraduate students since 2013.
-
This was an interesting article on Purdue / tuition.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/04/mitch-daniels-purdue/606772/
So far, so good. That'll take us through my daughter's junior year. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we don't get soaked her senior year.