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Author Topic: MU tuition up 3.5%  (Read 20463 times)

Warrior Code

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2019, 12:18:02 PM »
*Seinfeld voice* Why don't they just make the endowment out of the tuition!?
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MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2019, 12:19:15 PM »
We got the letter as well...one more year for him.  My daughter’s Xavier acceptance this past weekend offered bigger scholarship, lower tuition (not by much)...the game they all play.

A repeat of what I mentioned here on Scoop last year with my daughter.

Jay Bee

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2019, 12:21:15 PM »
that still saddling students with a mortgage-worth of nondischargeable debt

To be 'saddled with' student loan debt, one must make the decision to be 'saddled with' student loan debt.

If being 'saddled with' student loan debt isn't something you're comfortable with, don't do it. 
Thanks for ruining summer, Canada.

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2019, 12:21:21 PM »
BigEastDad?

But seriously, if you don't mind sharing, what made you/your daughter look into Xavier, given that you all live in CA?

My daughter at Xavier has two California friends.  Before Thanksgiving, her group of friends took the California kids to Target for some winter clothes and boots shopping.

MUfan12

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2019, 12:44:24 PM »
Interesting thread, but I can't get past the fact that tuition has risen over $23k since I started in 2003. Yowza.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2019, 12:53:15 PM »
that's ridiculous. My class was around 1400, I know post-Final Four there was a cap at 1800. But, tuition-driven institutions like MU are trying to increase enrollment as they see every potential student as a revenue generator. The result will be a lower quality of the student body and the quality of education. It will also hurt the school as attrition will increase. Law schools have been paying for this strategy. Valpo is in its final year of existence because they were trying to increase numbers and admitting unqualified students. The same will happen at undergrad institutions.

Will Law schools exist in the AI Age? We were recently with our lawyer who is a mentor at John Marshall and his POV is that debt-ridden new lawyers will be 100% replaced by digital machines in the near-future.

MU82

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2019, 01:20:58 PM »
What happens when public education is “free” for everyone?

Politics. Again. Of course.
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2019, 01:35:31 PM »
Does transferring the burden of crippling student loans onto a population who isn't engaging in economically rational decision making fit the mission of the university?

Student loan debt isn't really "crippling" for the vast majority of most students.  Furthermore, when you consider the economic benefits of a Marquette bachelor's degree, and the pay-off periods and interest rates of most student loans, it is completely rational decision making.


Does maximizing revenue, playing games with sticker prices and discounts, and after all that still saddling students with a mortgage-worth of nondischargeable debt simply because enrollment hasn't dropped and therefore demand must be there fit with the university's mission?

Oh stop with the hyperbolic nonsense.  No one is "playing games" with anything.  And no one has a "mortgage-worth" of student loans.

What you resort to that crap your argument sucks.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #58 on: December 12, 2019, 01:37:39 PM »
Not to be combative, but I really do believe this: As tuition continues to outstrip inflation and the value of a tuition investment in MU (and all privates / high priced education) decreases, the customer base drops to zero over the long term. 

MU's recent cuts and very high acceptance rates seem to be canaries in that coal mine.   

So .. no tuition freeze?  Ok.  I think there's an asteroid coming.   How can it be dealt with?


The acceptance rate nonsense has nothing to do with it.  That's a targetting issue.

And there isn't an asteroid coming.  Chicken little nonsense.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #59 on: December 12, 2019, 01:38:02 PM »
While rationalization and cost containment are essential and in order (remember the MU layoffs and program consolidations in August?), no university I'm aware of has successfully 'cost contained' themselves into financial success.  What absolutely kills a university (and many, many more are going to die in the next 25 years) is when kids stop attending.

I think many were rightly critical last summer when the university leadership seemingly finally conceded that the projected 2500 annual class size was an unrealistic pipe dream and began to adjust accordingly but you simply cannot successfully go on a full blown austerity program and not lose sufficient luster to avoid the downward spiral.  Honestly, Marquette has been fairly proactive and is positioned as well as can be expected given the modern climate.


This is a very good post.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

muwarrior69

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2019, 01:46:47 PM »
While rationalization and cost containment are essential and in order (remember the MU layoffs and program consolidations in August?), no university I'm aware of has successfully 'cost contained' themselves into financial success.  What absolutely kills a university (and many, many more are going to die in the next 25 years) is when kids stop attending.

I think many were rightly critical last summer when the university leadership seemingly finally conceded that the projected 2500 annual class size was an unrealistic pipe dream and began to adjust accordingly but you simply cannot successfully go on a full blown austerity program and not lose sufficient luster to avoid the downward spiral.  Honestly, Marquette has been fairly proactive and is positioned as well as can be expected given the modern climate.

Back in the 60s when I attended, 25% of my classes were taught be Jesuits which I am sure kept costs down.

Galway Eagle

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2019, 01:48:55 PM »
Student loan debt isn't really "crippling" for the vast majority of most students.  Furthermore, when you consider the economic benefits of a Marquette bachelor's degree, and the pay-off periods and interest rates of most student loans, it is completely rational decision making.


Oh stop with the hyperbolic nonsense.  No one is "playing games" with anything.  And no one has a "mortgage-worth" of student loans.

What you resort to that crap your argument sucks.

Do you have stats on your it's not "crippling" claim?

I had a friend who ended MU plus masters with about 160k in loans. Seems like a mortgage worth to me. Not a great home but still could get something.

After dating a teacher for years and having been in sales for four years at companies like Groupon and Stericycle which were hiring people from Jucos or with simple high school degrees I'd completely disagree about the economic benefits unless you're in finance, a medical field, or take your degree and get a masters (Psych for example). Even a MU/HS/Grade school friend of mine quit his tech job to flip houses and paint because it wasn't financially smart for his to sit making 40k paying off loans, plus rent, commuter costs, insurance, etc.

For many individuals being in a solid trade union would likely yield better or roughly the same returns till at least a college grad reaches their 40s.
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Goose

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2019, 02:08:19 PM »
Two kids at MU for four years and one for 1.5 years over the past decade was a financial ball buster at our house. I love MU a great deal, but the sting of all the checks going their way is going to take awhile to get over. Now almost three years removed from youngest graduating, I thank God that our kids tuition is behind us. Have two grandkids coming early next year and already worrying about they will be able to handle the high cost of education.

buckchuckler

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2019, 02:21:26 PM »
Two kids at MU for four years and one for 1.5 years over the past decade was a financial ball buster at our house. I love MU a great deal, but the sting of all the checks going their way is going to take awhile to get over. Now almost three years removed from youngest graduating, I thank God that our kids tuition is behind us. Have two grandkids coming early next year and already worrying about they will be able to handle the high cost of education.

I love Marquette.  I loved my experience there.  I love the people I met there.  Loved most of my teachers.  It sucks that it will most likely not be an option for my kids.

jsglow

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2019, 02:22:47 PM »
Do you have stats on your it's not "crippling" claim?

I had a friend who ended MU plus masters with about 160k in loans. Seems like a mortgage worth to me. Not a great home but still could get something.

After dating a teacher for years and having been in sales for four years at companies like Groupon and Stericycle which were hiring people from Jucos or with simple high school degrees I'd completely disagree about the economic benefits unless you're in finance, a medical field, or take your degree and get a masters (Psych for example). Even a MU/HS/Grade school friend of mine quit his tech job to flip houses and paint because it wasn't financially smart for his to sit making 40k paying off loans, plus rent, commuter costs, insurance, etc.

For many individuals being in a solid trade union would likely yield better or roughly the same returns till at least a college grad reaches their 40s.

100% agree.  The notion that one MUST go to a 4 year college to be successful is wrong.

Coleman

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2019, 02:23:58 PM »
It is sad to say, but I will discourage my kids from going to MU unless they can get a very significant scholarship. We plan on helping out with some of the cost but even then, I think it would be far too much debt for them to take on compared to a state school.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2019, 02:26:37 PM »
Do you have stats on your it's not "crippling" claim?

I had a friend who ended MU plus masters with about 160k in loans. Seems like a mortgage worth to me. Not a great home but still could get something.

After dating a teacher for years and having been in sales for four years at companies like Groupon and Stericycle which were hiring people from Jucos or with simple high school degrees I'd completely disagree about the economic benefits unless you're in finance, a medical field, or take your degree and get a masters (Psych for example). Even a MU/HS/Grade school friend of mine quit his tech job to flip houses and paint because it wasn't financially smart for his to sit making 40k paying off loans, plus rent, commuter costs, insurance, etc.

For many individuals being in a solid trade union would likely yield better or roughly the same returns till at least a college grad reaches their 40s.


"I have a friend" anectodal stories aside, the average loan amount taken out by Marqutte undergraduates a year is $7,800.  Times four, that's just over $30,000.  If you choose the extended payoff rate, that's $230 a month.  That isn't "crippling" - expecially since Marquette's loan default rate is about 2%.

And a liberal arts major is going to make more over the course of their lifetime than someone with a high school education.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/whats-a-liberal-arts-degree-worth-11557501301
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Coleman

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2019, 02:30:26 PM »

"I have a friend" anectodal stories aside, the average loan amount taken out by Marqutte undergraduates a year is $7,800.  Times four, that's just over $30,000.  If you choose the extended payoff rate, that's $230 a month.  That isn't "crippling" - expecially since Marquette's loan default rate is about 2%.

And a liberal arts major is going to make more over the course of their lifetime than someone with a high school education.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/whats-a-liberal-arts-degree-worth-11557501301

I agree that $30k isn't crippling. That is actually about what I had. But that doesn't mean it is without negative consequence. It probably delays buying a house. It could delay marriage and starting a family. It did not do any of these for me, but I think it probably does happen pretty often.


Also, if $30k is the average, after accounting for a bunch of no-debt grads (full-ride scholarships and rich parents who pay cash), many MU grads probably have some pretty staggering debt levels. MU should care about every individual who graduates, not just averages.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 02:36:22 PM by Coleman »

jficke13

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #68 on: December 12, 2019, 02:32:36 PM »
Student loan debt isn't really "crippling" for the vast majority of most students.  Furthermore, when you consider the economic benefits of a Marquette bachelor's degree, and the pay-off periods and interest rates of most student loans, it is completely rational decision making.


Oh stop with the hyperbolic nonsense.  No one is "playing games" with anything.  And no one has a "mortgage-worth" of student loans.

What you resort to that crap your argument sucks.

Then what's the point of charging $50k (wink wink actually $20k)? It's the anti-Kohl's pricing structure. Instead of saying Look it's 70% off! Say Look it costs 70% more than your surprise price at the register! Hope you get a good spin of the mystery student aid wheel!

If *someone* is paying full freight on the $50k sticker price, and that someone goes to medical or law school for a comparable price tag, they are looking at $350k. So... uh... kinda mortgagey, no? And yes, I know law school classmates who've done this. (Obviously they weren't smart, smart people don't go to law school).

And, frankly, the only thing I care about is this: The price of higher education, both at MU and at other schools, is increasing at an unsustainable rate. I think that this rate of increase is bad for society, bad for students, and cannot continue at this rate forever.

Do you think that the rate of increase to the cost of higher education is not high?

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #69 on: December 12, 2019, 02:47:27 PM »
Then what's the point of charging $50k (wink wink actually $20k)? It's the anti-Kohl's pricing structure. Instead of saying Look it's 70% off! Say Look it costs 70% more than your surprise price at the register! Hope you get a good spin of the mystery student aid wheel!

Hyperbolic nonsense.  It's fine. 


If *someone* is paying full freight on the $50k sticker price, and that someone goes to medical or law school for a comparable price tag, they are looking at $350k. So... uh... kinda mortgagey, no? And yes, I know law school classmates who've done this. (Obviously they weren't smart, smart people don't go to law school).

First of all, we were talking about undergraduate tuition.  So goalpost shifting to professional school debt isn't really what I was talking about.  And if someone is paying full freight on $50k, then they can afford it.  They aren't taking out loans unless their family simply isn't contributing.


And, frankly, the only thing I care about is this: The price of higher education, both at MU and at other schools, is increasing at an unsustainable rate. I think that this rate of increase is bad for society, bad for students, and cannot continue at this rate forever.

They've been saying it's unsustainable for 20 years.  Yet it sustains.  Eventually people have to figure out that students are making economic rational decisions because the cost of higher education is worth it.  And the more the gap between the value of a HS education and a college education widens, the more costs can and will rise.


Do you think that the rate of increase to the cost of higher education is not high?

I think higher education should cost less.  I think states should return to previous levels of investment in public higher education, and the federal government should turn back more of its loan programs into grant programs.  Higher education benefits society at large.  It's not just an individual benefit.

But that's politics and isn't going to happen.  So...
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #70 on: December 12, 2019, 02:48:51 PM »
I agree that $30k isn't crippling. That is actually about what I had. But that doesn't mean it is without negative consequence. It probably delays buying a house. It could delay marriage and starting a family. It did not do any of these for me, but I think it probably does happen pretty often.


Also, if $30k is the average, after accounting for a bunch of no-debt grads (full-ride scholarships and rich parents who pay cash), many MU grads probably have some pretty staggering debt levels. MU should care about every individual who graduates, not just averages.


The $30,000 is average for those taking out debt.

And yes I agree that it does financially hamper someone.  No doubt.  But there are solutions for that that I have mentioned elsewhere.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

jficke13

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2019, 03:02:04 PM »
Hyperbolic nonsense.  It's fine. 


First of all, we were talking about undergraduate tuition.  So goalpost shifting to professional school debt isn't really what I was talking about.  And if someone is paying full freight on $50k, then they can afford it.  They aren't taking out loans unless their family simply isn't contributing.


They've been saying it's unsustainable for 20 years.  Yet it sustains.  Eventually people have to figure out that students are making economic rational decisions because the cost of higher education is worth it.  And the more the gap between the value of a HS education and a college education widens, the more costs can and will rise.


I think higher education should cost less.  I think states should return to previous levels of investment in public higher education, and the federal government should turn back more of its loan programs into grant programs.  Higher education benefits society at large.  It's not just an individual benefit.

But that's politics and isn't going to happen.  So...

Price paid, and indebtedness incurred, is increasing far faster than the rate of inflation, or the increase in real wages earned. Here's a cite stating that "Student loan debt in the U.S. reached another all-time high of $1.4 trillion in the first quarter (Q1) of 2019, according to Experian data. That's an increase of 116% in 10 years." https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/state-of-student-loan-debt/ (which more or less tracks with what I've noted that my '05 tuition was about half of what they're reporting now).

100+% increases in 10 years time is an accelerating rate of change and, I think, bad.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2019, 03:12:32 PM »
Price paid, and indebtedness incurred, is increasing far faster than the rate of inflation, or the increase in real wages earned. Here's a cite stating that "Student loan debt in the U.S. reached another all-time high of $1.4 trillion in the first quarter (Q1) of 2019, according to Experian data. That's an increase of 116% in 10 years." https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/state-of-student-loan-debt/ (which more or less tracks with what I've noted that my '05 tuition was about half of what they're reporting now).

100+% increases in 10 years time is an accelerating rate of change and, I think, bad.


I don't disagree with you.  As I said, I think there should be alternatives to loan programs.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2019, 03:21:36 PM »
I agree that $30k isn't crippling. That is actually about what I had. But that doesn't mean it is without negative consequence. It probably delays buying a house. It could delay marriage and starting a family. It did not do any of these for me, but I think it probably does happen pretty often.

In fact, a student loan establishes a credit and score history that may make it easier to buy a house or condo.

Coleman

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Re: MU tuition up 3.5%
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2019, 03:24:47 PM »
What do people think about programs like free school in exchange for X% of earnings for X years? It is just a matter of running the actuary numbers to get to some numbers that average out the cost over a big enough pool of graduates. Grads who become Catholic school teachers will pay back less, but investment bankers will pay back more. Could be a completely voluntary program administered by MU: MU covers cost while students send them checks for X years after graduation. MU could still take students who prefer to take government backed loans. Just another option. I don't really see a downside.

 

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