Wojo's Threshold

[Cheeks]

Christopherson - yes, good catch. I don't know if Taylor ever even enrolled and McKay never played (neither were ever rostered players) - but yes. McMorrow was "cut" by our medical staff.

McKay may not have been a rostered player, but he left because of a Buzz roster decision and left a hole because of the timing.  Does it matter if they left "because of the coach" after school starts or "because of the coach" before school starts?  Either way, they left.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

McKay was on the roster. He just left before the first game.

TJ Taylor I can't remember if he made the roster or not.  My recollection is that he made it to campus and then left

[Pakuni]

By my count, 8 rostered players left MU before completing their eligibility in the 6 seasons Buzz was the coach: P Hazel, J Ferguson, J Jones, R Smith, E Williams, Y Mbao, J Maymon and V Blue. 1 (Hazel) left because he was caught stealing, 1 (Maymon) was kicked off because of his Dad's demands, 5 left due to lack of playing time and 1(Blue) left early to try to go pro. MU lost one valuable season of Blue and Maymon's potential. IOW, not much over 6 years. 14 players (J Dawson, T Mayo, S Cohen, D Burton, S Taylor jr., H Cheatham, H Ellenson, W Ellenson, T Carter, H Frolling, G Levin, Du Wilson, S Hauser and J Hauser) have left MU without completing their eligibility in Wojo's 5 years. 1 (Mayo) was kicked off the team, 1 (W Ellenson) was essentially cut and 2 (Dawson and Frolling left due to lack of playing time. That leaves a "lost" roster of H Ellenson, D Burton, G Levin, S Cohen, S Taylor jr, S Hauser, J Hauser, T Carter and Du Wilson - not an NCAA champ but a great deal more than was lost during the previous regime.

As has been pointed out, you left out several players who transferred during Buzz's tenure.
And the notion that Henry was "lost" is silly. He never was sticking around for more than a year. That was the plan from the beginning. You might as well go visit the Duke board and lambaste Coach K for "losing" Zion and RJ Barrett.

Duane Wilson, Levin and Steve Taylor all left over playing time ... as do most transfers.

Really, you're splitting an awful lot of hairs for no reason. Transfers happen to every coach and there is no significant difference in either the number or reasons for transfers between Buzz and Wojo.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I believe he left right as school started in Buzz's first year.

Yep.

[Dr. Blackheart]

And the notion that Henry was "lost" is silly. He never was sticking around for more than a year. That was the plan from the beginning.

Duane Wilson, Levin and Steve Taylor all left over playing time ... as do most transfers.

Really, you're splitting an awful lot of hairs for no reason. Transfers happen to every coach and there is no significant difference in either the number or reasons for transfers between Buzz and Wojo.

While I agree with the general spirit of your post I am going to comment on these three:

The plan with Henry and Wally was two years together.

Most of the transfers listed didn't "leave" because of just playing time. Off court behavior, academics, and handler, coach and AD relationships all played larger roles.

The problem I've had with Wojo's transfers was the timing as they left holes that set program progress back...whereas Crean and Buzz had backup plans (and Larry impacted Buzz's last year more than said here not that Buzz was innocent). Point is, Wojo is much better now at managing roster imbalance (like the Hauser situation...he had a plan).

Crean and Buzz proved they could take MU from Point A to Point C.  Wojo (to many except the slurpers) has only proven he can take MU from A to B.  November will give us a strong indication if he can also take us to Point C--both off and on the court. I believe he can.

[MU82]

While I agree with the general spirit of your post I am going to comment on these three:

The plan with Henry and Wally was two years together.

Most of the transfers listed didn't "leave" because of just playing time. Off court behavior, academics, and handler, coach and AD relationships all played larger roles.

The problem I've had with Wojo's transfers was the timing as they left holes that set program progress back...whereas Crean and Buzz had backup plans (and Larry impacted Buzz's last year more than said here not that Buzz was innocent). Point is, Wojo is much better now at managing roster imbalance (like the Hauser situation...he had a plan).

Crean and Buzz proved they could take MU from Point A to Point C.  Wojo (to many except the slurpers) has only proven he can take MU from A to B.  November will give us a strong indication if he can also take us to Point C--both off and on the court. I believe he can.

While I won't argue that Wojo is in Buzz's league, because that would be silly, I do have to ask this:

What was Buzz's backup plan for Vander's departure -- an event that many blame for the team's suckitude in Buzz's final MU season?

[Galway Eagle]

While I won't argue that Wojo is in Buzz's league, because that would be silly, I do have to ask this:

What was Buzz's backup plan for Vander's departure -- an event that many blame for the team's suckitude in Buzz's final MU season?

Wasn't it Duane Wilson then he broke his foot? Or am I imagining that and it was gonna be Derrick the whole time

[Pakuni]

While I agree with the general spirit of your post I am going to comment on these three:

The plan with Henry and Wally was two years together.

Most of the transfers listed didn't "leave" because of just playing time. Off court behavior, academics, and handler, coach and AD relationships all played larger roles.

The problem I've had with Wojo's transfers was the timing as they left holes that set program progress back...whereas Crean and Buzz had backup plans (and Larry impacted Buzz's last year more than said here not that Buzz was innocent). Point is, Wojo is much better now at managing roster imbalance (like the Hauser situation...he had a plan).

Crean and Buzz proved they could take MU from Point A to Point C.  Wojo (to many except the slurpers) has only proven he can take MU from A to B.  November will give us a strong indication if he can also take us to Point C--both off and on the court. I believe he can.

Respectfully disagree on Henry.
In this Zagsblog previewing his freshman year, he talks about being a one-and-done:
https://www.zagsblog.com/2015/10/14/marquettes-henry-ellenson-could-be-first-big-east-one-and-done-in-three-years/

In this story from during his freshman year, he certainly doesn't slam the door on leaving after one year:
https://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/story/marquette-henry-ellenson-golden-eagles-freshman-nba-draft-lottery-011916

In this story, he says he'd have considered skipping college altogether if the G-League could have offered him the $125K it's offering now.

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2018/10/19/detroit-pistons-g-league-henry-ellenson/1696437002/

[Silent Verbal]

While I agree with the general spirit of your post I am going to comment on these three:

The plan with Henry and Wally was two years together.

Most of the transfers listed didn't "leave" because of just playing time. Off court behavior, academics, and handler, coach and AD relationships all played larger roles.

The problem I've had with Wojo's transfers was the timing as they left holes that set program progress back...whereas Crean and Buzz had backup plans (and Larry impacted Buzz's last year more than said here not that Buzz was innocent). Point is, Wojo is much better now at managing roster imbalance (like the Hauser situation...he had a plan).

Crean and Buzz proved they could take MU from Point A to Point C.  Wojo (to many except the slurpers) has only proven he can take MU from A to B.  November will give us a strong indication if he can also take us to Point C--both off and on the court. I believe he can.

I agree with this entire analysis, but especially the Ellenson part.  There's no way Wojo would've agreed to one year of Henry for three of Wally.  What happened with Wally after Henry declared bears that out.

[Silent Verbal]

While I won't argue that Wojo is in Buzz's league, because that would be silly, I do have to ask this:

What was Buzz's backup plan for Vander's departure -- an event that many blame for the team's suckitude in Buzz's final MU season?

I'd say his backup plan was the three highly rated guards he had coming in.  Unfortunately, Duane got hurt, JJJ was overrated, young for his age, and mostly in the doghouse, and Deonte...just had kind of a strange freshman season where he showed flashes but never had/seized the opportunity to reach his full potential.  Buzz also had one foot out the door that whole year and likely sat Deonte and JJJ more than he should've in an attempt to get them to transfer and completely deep six the program following his own departure.  I've also heard rumors that Duane was healthy enough to play in the second half, but Buzz put the kibosh on that.  And I say all this as someone who loves Buzz.

[Pakuni]

I'd say his backup plan was the three highly rated guards he had coming in.  Unfortunately, Duane got hurt, JJJ was overrated, young for his age, and mostly in the doghouse, and Deonte...just had kind of a strange freshman season where he showed flashes but never had/seized the opportunity to reach his full potential.  Buzz also had one foot out the door that whole year and likely sat Deonte and JJJ more than he should've in an attempt to get them to transfer and completely deep six the program following his own departure.  I've also heard rumors that Duane was healthy enough to play in the second half, but Buzz put the kibosh on that.  And I say all this as someone who loves Buzz.

I think Buzz is a better coach than your giving him credit. There's zero chance he anticipated either JJJ or Deonte filling Vander's role.
The backup plan for Vander was starting Derrick Wilson.

[Goose]

MU 82

I think your posts in general have become angry, not specific to any reply on this thread. As for my comment on Wojo having two more years if he lands Davis and Garcia, please read the title of this thread. I was not going off half cocked in a MLB thread and signing off on Wojo having more time. I simply was adding my opinion on the topic being discussed.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Wasn't it Duane Wilson then he broke his foot? Or am I imagining that and it was gonna be Derrick the whole time

Duane, TJ and Todd. The "Larry Rules" impacted two of those and was in part one of the reasons Vander left. Derrick and Jake were always to be back-ups (and Magic).

The next class was Nick before his personal problems. Not saying it was a good or bad plan, but it was better than what transpired.  I am still thankful to Jake and Derrick for being true Warriors.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Respectfully disagree on Henry.
In this Zagsblog previewing his freshman year, he talks about being a one-and-done:
https://www.zagsblog.com/2015/10/14/marquettes-henry-ellenson-could-be-first-big-east-one-and-done-in-three-years/

In this story from during his freshman year, he certainly doesn't slam the door on leaving after one year:
https://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/story/marquette-henry-ellenson-golden-eagles-freshman-nba-draft-lottery-011916

In this story, he says he'd have considered skipping college altogether if the G-League could have offered him the $125K it's offering now.

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2018/10/19/detroit-pistons-g-league-henry-ellenson/1696437002/

Were those Wojo's plans? Those articles are a bit of a stretch for your argument. I mean, even on the discussion on one and done, Henry talks about Kentucky as an option.

Listen, was it a possibility? Yes. But it wasn't Wojo's original plan. But in the end, Henry did the right thing...and Wojo used three years of scholarship space that arguably slowed rebuilding.

[muguru]

I see no reason why, at least for now, MU can't be an annual NCAA tourney team. That should be the minimum IMO.

[tower912]

I believe the 19-20 team is a tourney team.  Probably a 5-6 seed.

[JakeBarnes]

I think Wojo's threshold is somewhere between the 5th and 6th (non-Wisconsin) old fashioned.

[Cheeks]

While I agree with the general spirit of your post I am going to comment on these three:

The plan with Henry and Wally was two years together.

Most of the transfers listed didn't "leave" because of just playing time. Off court behavior, academics, and handler, coach and AD relationships all played larger roles.

The problem I've had with Wojo's transfers was the timing as they left holes that set program progress back...whereas Crean and Buzz had backup plans (and Larry impacted Buzz's last year more than said here not that Buzz was innocent). Point is, Wojo is much better now at managing roster imbalance (like the Hauser situation...he had a plan).

Crean and Buzz proved they could take MU from Point A to Point C.  Wojo (to many except the slurpers) has only proven he can take MU from A to B.  November will give us a strong indication if he can also take us to Point C--both off and on the court. I believe he can.

That would surprise me greatly because that draft class the year Henry came out was brutally bad.  If he had waited after his sophomore year that class was considered much deeper.  I think he and his people had to know fairly early on that the quickest way to get into the league that was also the safest was leaving after year one.

[Cheeks]

Duane, TJ and Todd. The "Larry Rules" impacted two of those and was in part one of the reasons Vander left. Derrick and Jake were always to be back-ups (and Magic).

The next class was Nick before his personal problems. Not saying it was a good or bad plan, but it was better than what transpired.  I am still thankful to Jake and Derrick for being true Warriors.

Anyone with a sense of ethics would have impacted one of those two guys, so I don't think it is fair to put that on Larry.  That player never should have been on the MU campus at all and I think most AD's not named Larry would also have said the same.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Anyone with a sense of ethics would have impacted one of those two guys, so I don't think it is fair to put that on Larry.  That player never should have been on the MU campus at all and I think most AD's not named Larry would also have said the same.

As usual, you are off the thread topic.  The thread, of course, is about having a plan. 

As to your claim, all of those were cleared by the NCAA Clearinghouse, all were admitted by Marquette Admissions. One of them was admitted to three different NCAA Division schools. Larry, the AD who was fired by Marquette btw, worked through Pilarz (also fired) to bypass Marquette's admission policies to that point for student athletes. That was their prerogative. It was also the BOT's prerogative to get rid of them for their lack of job performance.

So, let's get this take of yours right: The NCAA is inept, multiple AD's not named Larry should fired, the MU Admissions should be disbanded. Wojo should be fired as he kept the one you question on the team for almost five months until he was cut for missing the summer sessions to work out with his NBA brother. Lastly, Pilarz and Larry should be enshrined in the MU Wall of Fame for how much they were wronged. 

Your takes are so "right on". 

[Dr. Blackheart]

That would surprise me greatly because that draft class the year Henry came out was brutally bad.  If he had waited after his sophomore year that class was considered much deeper.  I think he and his people had to know fairly early on that the quickest way to get into the league that was also the safest was leaving after year one.

I think it was the right decision for Henry at the time, and how his career has played out. That was not the plan when he signed.

[MU82]

MU 82

I think your posts in general have become angry, not specific to any reply on this thread. As for my comment on Wojo having two more years if he lands Davis and Garcia, please read the title of this thread. I was not going off half cocked in a MLB thread and signing off on Wojo having more time. I simply was adding my opinion on the topic being discussed.

I am the happiest, luckiest person I know, Goose. Not angry at all. If you'd like to discuss this further, feel free to PM me. Have a nice night.

[Cheeks]

As to your claim, all of those were cleared by the NCAA Clearinghouse, all were admitted by Marquette Admissions. One of them was admitted to three different NCAA Division schools. Larry, the AD who was fired by Marquette btw, worked through Pilarz (also fired) to bypass Marquette's admission policies to that point for student athletes. That was their prerogative. It was also the BOT's prerogative to get rid of them for their lack of job performance.

I only commented on one, not all three.  Yes, he made it through the clearinghouse....that was not my rationale for why he never should have been here from day one.  Not academics. 

[Lennys Tap]

A conclusion after reading this (and many other) threads:

Chico talks about connections to "inside information" regarding MU athletics but has none.

Dr B doesn't talk about those same connections but nevertheless has them.

[dgies9156]

That would surprise me greatly because that draft class the year Henry came out was brutally bad.  If he had waited after his sophomore year that class was considered much deeper.  I think he and his people had to know fairly early on that the quickest way to get into the league that was also the safest was leaving after year one.

Off topic a bit but Henry was not well-served by his advisers. He was looking at macro issues and not at his own talent and ability. He has proven to be a marginal NBA talent and is now traversing between the Long Island and Brooklyn Nets.

He's just another Vander Blue.

From Henry's long-term perspective, he should stayed at least two and maybe three years, worked on his game and worked toward a degree. The degree would have served him well and could you have imagined last year's team if we had Sam, Henry, Theo, Markus and Sacar. I think Murray State would still be looking for its head.

MAKE MARQUETTE FEARED AGAIN!!!!!