MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 1SE on September 30, 2019, 05:37:01 AM
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Barring catastrophic injury, what is the minimum Wojo needs to do to this year to win/retain your support?
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None of these exactly, but saying Second Weekend is probably closest. I expect this to be the team it was advertised to be in April for that weekend after Markus stated he was returning and the Hausers announced their transfer. I feel this team should be a top 10-15 team, compete for Big East titles and the second weekend. I expect us to be celebrating some accomplishment of significance in April, whether it's a Big East regular season title, tournament title, or NCAA advancement to the Sweet 16 or further.
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I wish I was as optimistic as you. I believe this team to be more in the 20-25 region and I don't expect us to even sniff at the top 10. An NCAA win is the minimum for me. If we make the tourney and win a game there, that will be proof to me that Wojo has evolved as a coach to a significant degree. It seems to me the Big East will be better than last season and that we have a bit less talent than last season. I do hope the rookies and red shirts can take up the slack and prove me wrong.
Go Warriors!
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Anything short of an NCAA Tournament appearance would be a disappointment. Playing any game after the Round of 64 would be a luxury.
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this year my expectation is just to get there.
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Me too Galway. And let the chips fall where they may.
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I'll repeat what I said in another thread:
* We have one of the greater players in Marquette's history on this team and the fellow who will be our leading all-time scorer.
* We have a coach in the fifth year of a rebuilding (sorry, Buzz fans, it was a rebuilding) and by now we should have tangible results.
* Before Hausershima, we were thought to be a Top 10 team with aspirations of a Final Four appearance. We had added the "missing link" in Koby and our guards with no injuries were expected to be strong.
Given these trends, less than the second week would be an EXTREME disappointment.
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I have high expectations for our program as well. I hope you are right about a top ten team with a, hopefully, 1st team AA leading leading them. But, the Hausers leaving changed the variables too much to expect that. A good year with a tournament appearance in combination with an outstanding recruiting class would be pretty good indication things are still moving forward and would give Wojo some more slack. It’s just the reality we are living in now.
We do what you are saying then we are starting to become an elite program again.
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Depends what on the Wojo bandwagon means. To get me to think he's a great coach? Probably a top 3 seed and second weekend appearance. To get me to want him fired? Probably missing the NIT
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If this thread has taught us anything, it's that everyone should be hoarding Arby's coupons for March 2020.
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My expectations depends on how the Big East does.
I think the Big East is tougher this year.
In the end the Big East's success in NCAA tournament will tell me if the Big East was tougher this year. Last year the Big East was terrible in NCAA and NIT, which tells me MU was not as good as we thought as the whole conference was not that good.
A tougher Big East makes it tougher for Wojo to be successful.
I could live with MU finishing 6th, if the 5 teams ahead of them do reasonably well in NCAA tournament. MU finishing 6th and having the five teams in the tournament perform as they did last year would not set well with me.
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The NCAAT and what we do in it is my primary. The rest, to me is mostly like Christmas ornaments.
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An NCAA appearance is fine with me. Trust me i wish for huge success as much as anyone, but we need to build the talent to do that. Wojo has shown he can be a really good recruiter. I belive he can be an even better recruiter with sustained success. That even better recruiting can help the program acheive the success we all hope for over the long term. Missing the ncaa this year is a step backwards in building that foundation.
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Barring key injuries, I expect this to be a tourney team. Tell me our record, our seed, our bracket, and the relative health and momentum of teams in our part of the bracket, and I can make a guess beyond that.
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I expect we’ll perform just well enough to keep Wojo off the hot seat, but not any better. That probably means winning one NCAAT game and getting knocked out in the round of 32. Won’t satisfy me, but it is what it is. We make it to the second weekend and I’d be very excited.
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I expect we’ll perform just well enough to keep Wojo off the hot seat, but not any better. That probably means winning one NCAAT game and getting knocked out in the round of 32. Won’t satisfy me, but it is what it is. We make it to the second weekend and I’d be very excited.
That may well be the case, and it would be a disappointment for this season.
On the other hand, if that result is coupled with a strong recruiting class (especially if Davis and/or Garcia sign), I’ll be more than satisfied.
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Let's put it another way, if Wojo doesn't clear the bar I'm setting below (at least one condition) I would openly advocate for his immediate ouster:
-Finish top 3 in BE regular season
-Finish top 4 in BE tournament
-Make 2nd weekend of NCAA
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Let's put it another way, if Wojo doesn't clear the bar I'm setting below (at least one condition) I would openly advocate for his immediate ouster:
-Finish top 3 in BE regular season
-Finish top 4 in BE tournament
-Make 2nd weekend of NCAA
Like others for me it's NCAA success or bust but is 4th place in the BE tourney really the equivalent of a S16 to you? I'd say it would have to at least be a BE finals appearance.
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I understand it’s not totally fair to call a season a success or failure based on a single-elimination tournament, however, I think we need at least a tournament win. To have one of the best players in the country and our history, lose in the first round three times would be a bummer. Especially if blown out again.
I’d be happy with a season similar to Buzz’s first Sweet Sixteen run. It might not show Wojo is a great coach due to underperforming during the season, but it feels like the program has hit a bit of a lull until we have some March success with Wojo.
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I understand it’s not totally fair to call a season a success or failure based on a single-elimination tournament, however, I think we need at least a tournament win. To have one of the best players in the country and our history, lose in the first round three times would be a bummer. Especially if blown out again.
I’d be happy with a season similar to Buzz’s first Sweet Sixteen run. It might not show Wojo is a great coach due to underperforming during the season, but it feels like the program has hit a bit of a lull until we have some March success with Wojo.
To be fair we had four of the best players in program history from 05-10 and didn't get to the second weekend. Yet it doesn't tarnish Jerel, Wes, DJ or Lazar's memory.
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I think our ceiling will depend on how much rest Markus Howard gets during the conference season.
I don't have high hopes for Howard getting rest. I don't have high hopes for our NCAA tourney success this year. I really hope that Wojo figures it out and that I'm wrong.
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Does a fiery knife hurt more than a cold knife? My thinking is it would cauterize the wound keeping you from bleeding out. But I'd guess with 1000 stabs you'd have enough internal damage to die immediately.
I expect the tournament this year. Performance there will depend on match-ups. I expect this team should be able to handle a Morant type better (defensively), but the offense is a bigger question mark - that will be answered soon enough!
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To be fair we had four of the best players in program history from 05-10 and didn't get to the second weekend. Yet it doesn't tarnish Jerel, Wes, DJ or Lazar's memory.
No, but if this was the best we could do, it raises questions about the direction of the program.
It's about expectations for Marquette. No one edition of the team makes or breaks the program. But the Directional attainment of a goal is essential, as is the definition of the goal.
If you're comfortable with a school that mediocre in its own conference and consistently lands in the middle of the pack -- which a "4" standing puts us -- then OK, having the greatest scorer in university history generate no wins in the NCAA and a debilitating loss against an OVC no-name is success. I hope you're pleased.
But for many of us, that's not going to float our boat. We want our Warriors/Golden Eagles/Furry Birds or whatever politically correct name the university wants to call them, among the Top 10 teams in the country and moving toward a goal of rejoining the best and brightest in college basketball. Yeah, times have changed since those wonderful days way back when, but a great organization changes with the times and finds a way to win.
If we want to be great, we're going to have to figure this riddle out. We can and we must!
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No, but if this was the best we could do, it raises questions about the direction of the program.
It's about expectations for Marquette. No one edition of the team makes or breaks the program. But the Directional attainment of a goal is essential, as is the definition of the goal.
If you're comfortable with a school that mediocre in its own conference and consistently lands in the middle of the pack -- which a "4" standing puts us -- then OK, having the greatest scorer in university history generate no wins in the NCAA and a debilitating loss against an OVC no-name is success. I hope you're pleased.
But for many of us, that's not going to float our boat. We want our Warriors/Golden Eagles/Furry Birds or whatever politically correct name the university wants to call them, among the Top 10 teams in the country and moving toward a goal of rejoining the best and brightest in college basketball. Yeah, times have changed since those wonderful days way back when, but a great organization changes with the times and finds a way to win.
If we want to be great, we're going to have to figure this riddle out. We can and we must!
You came off like having a drunken unhinged rant. I'm just saying the Elite 8 team had nobody that I'd call an all time great whereas guys like those four (including the person who is currently the all time scorer) had no runs during a time that was considered to be extremely successful for MU.
As far as my expectations or what I'm ok with you can chill the hell out I was at MU for the second greatest stretch in program history and want that back very bad but that doesn't mean expecting a championship every year because even Al only got us to that game twice. In a year like this I'm fine with making it.
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Does a fiery knife hurt more than a cold knife? My thinking is it would cauterize the wound keeping you from bleeding out. But I'd guess with 1000 stabs you'd have enough internal damage to die immediately.
I expect the tournament this year. Performance there will depend on match-ups. I expect this team should be able to handle a Morant type better (defensively), but the offense is a bigger question mark - that will be answered soon enough!
Bart: What's wrong, Dad?
Homer: [strained from feeling chest pains] You know that feeling you get when a thousand knives of fire are stabbing you in the heart? I got that right now... [back to normal] Ooh, bacon
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Wojo has had success in recruiting, but his inability to build a team that is balanced and good on the defensive end has limited his success. To me team building is the problem. Transfers hurt team building.
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You came off like having a drunken unhinged rant. I'm just saying the Elite 8 team had nobody that I'd call an all time great whereas guys like those four (including the person who is currently the all time scorer) had no runs during a time that was considered to be extremely successful for MU.
As far as my expectations or what I'm ok with you can chill the hell out I was at MU for the second greatest stretch in program history and want that back very bad but that doesn't mean expecting a championship every year because even Al only got us to that game twice. In a year like this I'm fine with making it.
Let me put it another way in hopes you understand what I mean.
You are measured by results. Period. A company with great technology, a great product or great service may have greatness, but if net income and earnings per share do not meet expectations, well, then there would be heck to pay. Companies and analysts set goals and are measured based on adherence to performance expectations.
Same here. The "drunken rant" as you call it, is a discussion of the measuring stick used to assess Marquette success. If you are my age, you tend to have very high expectations predicated on the experience of us winning a national title. Of us defeating the defending Olympic Champion basketball team. Of getting to the NCAA Championship and to regional finals. You almost had to experience that to believe it. Your age wants another Final Four run and the generation between us, who endured Hank, Rick and Bob, is happy with being in the NCAA period.
One other point to keep in mind: Why bother with basketball? I get that it is profitable. But it's more profitable when we are among the best teams in the country. More importantly, outstanding basketball gives our university a marketplace presence that it probably would not otherwise have. How many students in the 1970s looked at Marquette because they were introduced to it by a basketball game -- or hype about the basketball program? I'm betting a lot.
Not many went to Marquette because the basketball program was great. But it caused people to look at Marquette. Also, I have to believe there was millions of "McGuire Money" that came because we were very good and very visible nationally. When we fall out of national visibility, I'll betcha a beer at the next Scoop Beer Summit contributions fall, perhaps dramatically.
I respectfully think "We Are Marquette" should mean something -- basketball teams should be afraid of us again!
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Let me put it another way in hopes you understand what I mean.
You are measured by results. Period. A company with great technology, a great product or great service may have greatness, but if net income and earnings per share do not meet expectations, well, then there would be heck to pay. Companies and analysts set goals and are measured based on adherence to performance expectations.
Same here. The "drunken rant" as you call it, is a discussion of the measuring stick used to assess Marquette success. If you are my age, you tend to have very high expectations predicated on the experience of us winning a national title. Of us defeating the defending Olympic Champion basketball team. Of getting to the NCAA Championship and to regional finals. You almost had to experience that to believe it. Your age wants another Final Four run and the generation between us, who endured Hank, Rick and Bob, is happy with being in the NCAA period.
One other point to keep in mind: Why bother with basketball? I get that it is profitable. But it's more profitable when we are among the best teams in the country. More importantly, outstanding basketball gives our university a marketplace presence that it probably would not otherwise have. How many students in the 1970s looked at Marquette because they were introduced to it by a basketball game -- or hype about the basketball program? I'm betting a lot.
Not many went to Marquette because the basketball program was great. But it caused people to look at Marquette. Also, I have to believe there was millions of "McGuire Money" that came because we were very good and very visible nationally. When we fall out of national visibility, I'll betcha a beer at the next Scoop Beer Summit contributions fall, perhaps dramatically.
I respectfully think "We Are Marquette" should mean something -- basketball teams should be afraid of us again!
This post is a discussion, your other post was a weird rant after the first two paragraphs.
Reread the train of events: You said it'd be a bummer if we had one of the best players in the country and if we didn't go anywhere it'd be a bummer.
I brought up that we had a five year span with some of the best all time players and went nowhere.
You respond by questioning my program expectations and with a weird "I hope youre pleased" insinuation that I do have low expectations. Then launch into a rant that covers Mascot issue, PC culture, knocks my fandom down for not being at MU in the 70s, and manage a "back in my days" rant all in one paragraph.
Seems like a drunken unhinged rant to me moreso than a discussion. But at least in this most recent post you understand that my age group expects to get to the final four and that I won't be A-ok if Howard's career ends with three early losses.
As far as a beer bet, I don't believe we will fall from national relevance so no need. As far as why we have basketball it's because it enhances school spirit which is vital for a school like MU to have to create a strong alumni connection which they sell to students as a value for attending MU.
I like your business analogy and as an analyst I'd argue that expectations are Dynamic not Static. In the same sense that it's ridiculous to expect Q1 to have the same metrics as Q4 it is ridiculous to hold the same expectations year in and year out without figuring experience, talent, injuries, matchups, etc.
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Depends what on the Wojo bandwagon means. To get me to think he's a great coach? Probably a top 3 seed and second weekend appearance. To get me to want him fired? Probably missing the NIT
making the NIT and you still slurp him? That is extreme loyalty, and also settling for more mediocrity.
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making the NIT and you still slurp him? That is extreme loyalty, and also settling for more mediocrity.
Who do you slurp?
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I try to look at a season in its entirety and not judge based on a system where one bad performance will send you home. That being said, if you get 4 years of Markus and can't turn that into even a single NCAA tournament win, that's a major red flag. The only way that one and done wouldn't be enough to convince me it's time for him to go is if he brings in 2 of AJ, RJ, Dawson, and Suggs. Our class right now is good but not program changing, however that would/could be a lot of potentially incoming talent that would likely be gone.
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I try to look at a season in its entirety and not judge based on a system where one bad performance will send you home. That being said, if you get 4 years of Markus and can't turn that into even a single NCAA tournament win, that's a major red flag. The only way that one and done wouldn't be enough to convince me it's time for him to go is if he brings in 2 of AJ, RJ, Dawson, and Suggs. Our class right now is good but not program changing, however that would/could be a lot of potentially incoming talent that would likely be gone.
I agree with this analysis.
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I try to look at a season in its entirety and not judge based on a system where one bad performance will send you home. The only way that one and done wouldn't be enough to convince me it's time for him to go is if he brings in 2 of AJ, RJ, That being said, if you get 4 years of Markus and can't turn that into even a single NCAA tournament win, that's a major red flag. Dawson, and Suggs. Our class right now is good but not program changing, however that would/could be a lot of potentially incoming talent that would likely be gone.
Maybe that says more about Markus than Wojo. I always thought Markus and Jerrel McNeal were me type players. That is part of the reason they are two all-time leading scorers.
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Maybe that says more about Markus than Wojo. I always thought Markus and Jerrel McNeal were me type players. That is part of the reason they are two all-time leading scorers.
How dare you say such a thing about Saint God?
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We are the point with the number of responses to get to the pulse rate of the (mostly) silent Scoop majority. First, let's exclude the Guru-ites and the Cheeklets who no matter what, think Wojo can do either no right or no wrong.
Of the remainder and repercentaged to exclude the outliers:
>> 61.4% expect a one NCAA win and/or the second weekend
>> 38.6% are fine with just making the NIT or the NCAA and crapshooting out.
The team has stated their goal is to advance...so they are in line with the Scoop majority expectations in Year 6. I think this is the deepest and most balanced MU team in years myself and to not advance, with past finishes in mind, is a major blemish (barring injuries).
It might not be the most talented as of today...that is to be seen but this is an experienced and athletic group. Expectations should be high. Most here agree. It seems odd to me that a third don't, honestly. I am with the team on this one.
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This post is a discussion, your other post was a weird rant after the first two paragraphs.
I imagine you perched on the top rope like Randy Savage as you cue this one up. Or Jeff Hardy, if that's more age appropriate 😜
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Full and fair disclosure, I have not recovered from Hausershima.
I consider the 2019/2020 Warriors roughly analogous to the 2015 Packers. Mike McCarthy had shown he wasn't a viable head coach after the NFC Championship loss to Seattle. The 2015 Packers were a playoff team with Rogers playing hero ball and a few aging players from the 2010 Championship, but they were not going to make the Super Bowl. There were a few other players on that team that had kind of, sort of, developed (Ted Thompson deserves some blame for wasted draft picks). It was clear McCarthy would never get them back to the big game. In the end, the Packers squandered another 3 seasons with Rogers in his prime.
Do Bailey and John make great strides? Do the freshmen step-up and play like all stars, maybe? Probably not.
But even if all that happens, this is not a go deep in the Tourney team. So the 2019/2020 Warriors may make the Tourney, and a healthy Howard playing hero ball may notch a win. And after Howard graduates, a slow slide to the NIT?
I sincerely hope I am wrong. As I said, I have not recovered from Hausershima.
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Wojo's Threshold? It's what he carried Mrs. Wojo over on their wedding night. Duh.
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Maybe that says more about Markus than Wojo. I always thought Markus and Jerrel McNeal were me type players. That is part of the reason they are two all-time leading scorers.
Comments like this are utterly confusing to me. I don't understand how someone can be a fan of college basketball and not know that the head coach is responsible for the players on the team. MU does not have a GM selecting players for Wojo or forcing Wojo to play a certain player because he has a big contract.
If you don't care for Markus, fair enough, but what do you think of the dope playing him to the detriment of the team?
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Wojo's Threshold? It's what he carried Mrs. Wojo over on their wedding night. Duh.
Come on 82, you are married to a nurse too. Like you, it's the other way around.
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We are the point with the number of responses to get to the pulse rate of the (mostly) silent Scoop majority. First, let's exclude the Guru-ites and the Cheeklets who no matter what, think Wojo can do either no right or no wrong.
Of the remainder and repercentaged to exclude the outliers:
>> 61.4% expect a one NCAA win and/or the second weekend
>> 38.6% are fine with just making the NIT or the NCAA and crapshooting out.
The team has stated their goal is to advance...so they are in line with the Scoop majority expectations in Year 6. I think this is the deepest and most balanced MU team in years myself and to not advance, with past finishes in mind, is a major blemish (barring injuries).
It might not be the most talented as of today...that is to be seen but this is an experienced and athletic group. Expectations should be high. Most here agree. It seems odd to me that a third don't, honestly. I am with the team on this one.
LOL
He can do plenty wrong and has...but I like the trajectory. I voted NCAA appearance. Advancement depends on who, where, etc. Matchups matter. NIT, barring injuries, would be a problem.
That’s an interesting two choices you summarized. I would have said only 2.6% are ok with the NIT, while over 90% are expecting at minimum a NCAA bid. Both of us are right based on the results of the poll.
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Come on 82, you are married to a nurse too. Like you, it's the other way around.
Well, she has carried me in many ways, Doc, but not that one!
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LOL
He can do plenty wrong and has...but I like the trajectory. I voted NCAA appearance. Advancement depends on who, where, etc. Matchups matter. NIT, barring injuries, would be a problem.
That’s an interesting two choices you summarized. I would have said only 2.6% are ok with the NIT, while over 90% are expecting at minimum a NCAA bid. Both of us are right based on the results of the poll.
I picked those because those are some of of the biggest knocks on Wojo (by 60% of the Sane Scoopers). Bubbles and "in or outs", aka, living on the margins, are good in transition periods, but it's Year 6.
Also, when do "bad luck crapshoots" start to become a trend? That's the issue for the 60%. As I said, I am with the Dream Big team, not the Underachievers--and so is Wojo. The train is leaving, Cheeks, time to get aboard. In or out, and not on the fence making excuses for the boy.
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I picked those because those are some of of the biggest knocks on Wojo (by 60% of the Sane Scoopers). Bubbles and "in or outs", aka, living on the margins, are good in transition periods, but it's Year 6.
Also, when do "bad luck crapshoots" start to become a trend? That's the issue for the 60%. As I said, I am with the Dream Big team, not the Underachievers--and so is Wojo. The train is leaving, Cheeks, time to get aboard. In or out, and not on the fence making excuses for the boy.
I believe in the crapshoot, along with Jay, Mike, Roy, Mark, Tom, and so many other coaches. So no, I will go with getting into the dance, and then see what happens.
Doc, what if we got in as a 8 seed and a 16 knocked off the 1 in our bracket. We make the Sweet 16 as a result...does that convince you, or is it the luck of the draw? Way too much randomness in the tournament on who you play, where, etc...situations where some teams are given a gift, other situations where you play a double digit that goes all the way to the Final Four.
Get us in the tournament, and then we see what happens.
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Comments like this are utterly confusing to me. I don't understand how someone can be a fan of college basketball and not know that the head coach is responsible for the players on the team. MU does not have a GM selecting players for Wojo or forcing Wojo to play a certain player because he has a big contract.
If you don't care for Markus, fair enough, but what do you think of the dope playing him to the detriment of the team?
I like Markus. He is an amazing offensive player that has worked hard to improve his game. However, two years ago Rowsey was my favorite player. Almost every time he gave Markus the ball he never saw it again. Last year Sam was my favorite player. I like players that play team ball. James even if he was ahead on a fast break would drop the ball back to McNeal. McNeal would force up a fast break basket instead of passing it off to any body else. We had a good chance to beat Stanford, but instead of passing the ball ahead to Hayward McNeal drove in to force the last shot and missed. I believe this was at the end of regulation. McNeal had an absolutely great game up to that point, but he play selfishly on that last play. I can appreciate good players like McNeal and Markus, but I also see how they can hurt the team.
Imagine what you guys would of thought, if Wojo sat Markus or the Hausers the last 7 games. The only thing Wojo could of done was bench one side or the other and we would of been even worse. Blame whichever side you want, but once the battle started between the Hausers and Markus the team was finished. Markus stayed so he is my guy. The Hausers left so I am no longer a fan of them. Both sides are to blame. A coach cannot make players play together. The key really is to have so much talent that you can bench a player that is hurting the team. Wojo did start playing Bailey more, but that did not end the battle between Markus and Sam.
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I believe in the crapshoot, along with Jay, Mike, Roy, Mark, Tom, and so many other coaches. So no, I will go with getting into the dance, and then see what happens.
Doc, what if we got in as a 8 seed and a 16 knocked off the 1 in our bracket. We make the Sweet 16 as a result...does that convince you, or is it the luck of the draw? Way too much ,icky in the tournament on who you play, where, etc...situations where some teams are given a gift, other situations where you play a double digit that goes all the way to the Final Four.
Get us in the tournament, and then we see what happens.
You see, this was the problem with Crean too at both MU and IU at the end of his bitter rope: The Peter Principle. CTC kept coming back after 2003 for more cash after quick outs (or NIT). Why would a pre-season expectation, with a seasoned, well-balanced team, be a “crapshoot”? It’s excuse-making before one is needed. In case you didn’t know, the volume of your “crapshoot” opus on here is actually turning people off on Wojo, although he wants more in actuality.
Listen, this is a damn good team...maybe not as skilled in the starting five offensively as a year ago, but the 2nd time through the BIG or the BET, look out. Ja would not have had his crapshoot game if Jayce, Theo and Ed, with the forward wingspan squad, were there, though. Crapshoot games are won by defense in the paint, when the shots aren’t falling. I think the balance of this team top to bottom, with an AA in the mix, is VERY underrated in terms of match-ups...especially in the back half. Much better than any MU team since 2003 even.
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Well, she has carried me in many ways, Doc, but not that one!
Uh...huh.
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You see, this was the problem with Crean too at both MU and IU at the end of his bitter rope: The Peter Principle. CTC kept coming back after 2003 for more cash after quick outs (or NIT). Why would a pre-season expectation, with a seasoned, well-balanced team, be a “crapshoot”? It’s excuse-making before one is needed. In. In case you didn’t know, the volume of your “crapshoot” opus on here, is actually turning people off on Wojo, although he wants more in actuality.
Listen, this is a damn good team...maybe not as skilled in the starting five offensively as a year ago, but the 2nd time through the BIG or the BET, look out. Ja would not have had his crapshoot game if Jayce, Theo and Ed, with the forward wingspan squad,, were there, though. Crapshoot games are won by defense in the paint, when the shots aren’t falling. I think the balance of this team top to bottom, with an AA in the mix, is VERY underrated in terms of match-ups...especially in the back half. Much better than any MU team since 2003 even.
I like this team, but all teams have weaknesses and teams that are bad matchups for them. You can have a scenario where you would beat 50 of the 68 teams in the field, but there are some where the style of play is a major issue. Should UNLV ever have lost to Duke in the tournament? Duke to Mercer? UVA to UMBC? Nope. But it happens. Style of play, off shooting night, what ever. The idea of saying 6 months out without knowing who, when, where we would play just seems silly to me. If we have to play a school that is only 90 minutes from the site...it matters...as an example.
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I think context has value when considering NCAA wins. And upsets obviously do happen, it's what makes the tournament exciting. But it's time to have a team that enters the NCAA with a chance to make a run. Historically, your odds of making a run as a 10 seed aren't great. And entering the tournament following a late season collapse with a broken locker room gets us what we saw against Murray State.
So that's what I want. If this team is a top 3 seed and loses to a Mercer or UMBC type then yeah, we'll all b*tch and moan about it. But if a disappointing game with a meh seed in the tourney is reflective of the season, then we've got a real problem. It's Year 6. Time to make some noise.
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There are definitely crazy things that happen in the NCAA tourney and the significance of them are best judged after they occur. To pre-dismiss results or lack of results doesn’t make sense to me.
Said a different way a couple college coach’s legacy is built in March. You must win eventually (let alone make some runs) to have a chance at a positive legacy.
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There are definitely crazy things that happen in the NCAA tourney and the significance of them are best judged after they occur. To pre-dismiss results or lack of results doesn’t make sense to me.
Said a different way a couple college coach’s legacy is built in March. You must win eventually (let alone make some runs) to have a chance at a positive legacy.
How many champions since the UCLA dominance would of won the NCAA title again, if they immediately replayed the same tournament. I doubt Virginia would of won the NCAA tournament again, if they immediately replayed it.
Winning the championship is some what of a crap shoot. You need to be good enough to compete against the best and then have things break your way.
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How many champions since the UCLA dominance would of won the NCAA title again, if they immediately replayed the same tournament. I doubt Virginia would of won the NCAA tournament again, if they immediately replayed it.
Winning the championship is some what of a crap shoot. You need to be good enough to compete against the best and then have things break your way.
Winning any individual 50/50 game is of course uncertain. That was not my point....its more the last sentence. In this case we are not talking about the final two team clash...we are talking about winning the first game.
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Winning any individual 50/50 game is of course uncertain. That was not my point....its more the last sentence. In this case we are not talking about the final two team clash...we are talking about winning the first game.
This is about where I'm at. Wojo is 0-2 in tournament games with 2 blowouts. Cause for concern? Yes. Grounds for dismissal? IMO, no. Could he go 0-3 and keep his job? Probably. 0-4? Probably not, but a high buyout might save him for a year. 0-5? Immediate termination. At some point "crapshoot" has to turn into "this inability to win a tournament game is a very serious problem that no amount of good recruiting or lack of off-court issues an make up for". Some people are already at this level. The silent majority does not appear to be there. Yet.
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I think our ceiling will depend on how much rest Markus Howard gets during the conference season.
I don't have high hopes for Howard getting rest. I don't have high hopes for our NCAA tourney success this year. I really hope that Wojo figures it out and that I'm wrong.
When Markus got hurt last year; who was the point guard? Oh yeah, Sam Hauser. Markus will get more rest this year, he's got a solid running mate and Greg and Symir in reserve.
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This is about where I'm at. Wojo is 0-2 in tournament games with 2 blowouts. Cause for concern? Yes. Grounds for dismissal? IMO, no. Could he go 0-3 and keep his job? Probably. 0-4? Probably not, but a high buyout might save him for a year. 0-5? Immediate termination. At some point "crapshoot" has to turn into "this inability to win a tournament game is a very serious problem that no amount of good recruiting or lack of off-court issues an make up for". Some people are already at this level. The silent majority does not appear to be there. Yet.
If we were 0-2 and lost both games by 9 points would the doubters care any differently? I say a resounding no way. Lose by 1, lose by 20, lose by 10, people aren’t going to be happy.
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If we were 0-2 and lost both games by 9 points would the doubters care any differently? I say a resounding no way. Lose by 1, lose by 20, lose by 10, people aren’t going to be happy.
I'm certainly unhappy when we lose on the big stage - but I know that sooner or later in the tournament it's almost inevitable. What's not inevitable is not showing up, not competing. So when we get run out of the gym by a team were supposed to be just as good as (S Carolina) or by one we're supposed to be better than (Murray St) I'm a lot more unhappy. And when it happens in the first round, I'm also more unhappy. Maybe that's just me but I seriously doubt it.
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I'm certainly unhappy when we lose on the big stage - but I know that sooner or later in the tournament it's almost inevitable. What's not inevitable is not showing up, not competing. So when we get run out of the gym by a team were supposed to be just as good as (S Carolina) or by one we're supposed to be better than (Murray St) I'm a lot more unhappy. And when it happens in the first round, I'm also more unhappy. Maybe that's just me but I seriously doubt it.
End of the day it is a L. I guess it is how people live their life. We made a Final Four by going through a gauntlet including knocking off the #1 team and another top 5 team....people still bitch how we lost the Final Four game. Should we have lost the Elite 8 game by 1 at the buzzer to spare us the “shame” of losing in the Final Four?
It’s beyond silly.
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I'm certainly unhappy when we lose on the big stage - but I know that sooner or later in the tournament it's almost inevitable. What's not inevitable is not showing up, not competing. So when we get run out of the gym by a team were supposed to be just as good as (S Carolina) or by one we're supposed to be better than (Murray St) I'm a lot more unhappy. And when it happens in the first round, I'm also more unhappy. Maybe that's just me but I seriously doubt it.
Adding, how we ended the BE season last, down double digits at home for most of the 2nd vs. PSU in the NIT. There is always some solid reason around the crapshoot loss...but this year I expect the crapshoots to break MUs way. This can be a very good match-up roster.
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but this year I expect the crapshoots to break MUs way. This can be a very good match-up roster.
Hope you are right Dr. B!
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I believe in the crapshoot, along with Jay, Mike, Roy, Mark, Tom, and so many other coaches. So no, I will go with getting into the dance, and then see what happens.
Doc, what if we got in as a 8 seed and a 16 knocked off the 1 in our bracket. We make the Sweet 16 as a result...does that convince you, or is it the luck of the draw? Way too much randomness in the tournament on who you play, where, etc...situations where some teams are given a gift, other situations where you play a double digit that goes all the way to the Final Four.
Get us in the tournament, and then we see what happens.
I think the "crapshoot' theory has some truth to it but not a whole lot. Question: Does Roy Williams keep his job if he goes 0-10 in the next ten tournaments? Or are the people of UNC ignorant about college basketball?
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I think the "crapshoot' theory has some truth to it but not a whole lot. Question: Does Roy Williams keep his job if he goes 0-10 in the next ten tournaments? Or are the people of UNC ignorant about college basketball?
Matt Doherty got booted from UNC after missing two years in a row.
In Roys whole career including Kansas he has only missed the tournament twice. Every year he did make he won at least once.
I think UNC would give Roy another year beyond Doherty but that would be a highly debate topic at his current age.
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End of the day it is a L. I guess it is how people live their life. We made a Final Four by going through a gauntlet including knocking off the #1 team and another top 5 team....people still bitch how we lost the Final Four game. Should we have lost the Elite 8 game by 1 at the buzzer to spare us the “shame” of losing in the Final Four?
It’s beyond silly.
The 30+ point loss to Kansas was embarrassing - but mitigated a great deal by the run that preceded it, especially vs Pitt and UK.
Zero, nothing, nada like that re S. Carolina and Murray St. That was pure, unadulterated, unmitigated embarrassment. Even most slurpers acknowledged that.
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Matt Doherty got booted from UNC after missing two years in a row.
In Roys whole career including Kansas he has only missed the tournament twice. Every year he did make he won at least once.
I think UNC would give Roy another year beyond Doherty but that would be a highly debate topic at his current age.
Herman, I think you are right. I don't think the people of UNC would buy the "crapshoot" theory even with Roy's impressive resume. But then again, maybe UNC leadership is unsophisticated about college basketball and do not understand what a crapshoot the tourney is.
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Matt Doherty got booted from UNC after missing two years in a row.
In Roys whole career including Kansas he has only missed the tournament twice. Every year he did make he won at least once.
I think UNC would give Roy another year beyond Doherty but that would be a highly debate topic at his current age.
There's a big difference between missing the tournament entirely -- especially 2x in a row at a place like UNC -- and not advancing (or not advancing "far enough").
During his tenure at Kansas, Roy was criticized for "not winning the big one." I believe the same was said about Dean Smith for quite some time. Lute Olsen regularly was criticized for early-round losses. Mark Few was criticized for failing to get Gonzaga out of the first weekend 11 times in 13 seasons (2002-14). Bobby Knight became just another d-bag bully when he stopped winning NCAA tournament games.
None of the above ever came close to getting fired for on-court failure, nor should they have.
Wojo, of course, has not yet proven to be in the same universe as any of those coaches. But at least he's been better than Doherty was an UNC (ducks for cover).
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The 30+ point loss to Kansas was embarrassing - but mitigated a great deal by the run that preceded it, especially vs Pitt and UK.
Zero, nothing, nada like that re S. Carolina and Murray St. That was pure, unadulterated, unmitigated embarrassment. Even most slurpers acknowledged that.
The 30+ point loss talk gained steam when this followed...
'04 NIT
'05 NIT
'06 1st round loss
'07 1st round loss
'08 2nd round loss to a team without a coach
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I have said it, fluffy has said it. Right now, Wojo is Crean without the final 4 run. Can Wojo improve?
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I have said it, fluffy has said it. Right now, Wojo is Crean without the final 4 run. Can Wojo improve?
and if he doesn't can he at least snag us a Final Four?
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Who do you slurp?
Good coaches, not shlubs still trying to learn how to coach, and already reaching their plateau.
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I have said it, fluffy has said it. Right now, Wojo is Crean without the final 4 run. Can Wojo improve?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/xT5LMQZdnYKgUipCp2/giphy.gif)
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The 30+ point loss talk gained steam when this followed...
'04 NIT
'05 NIT
'06 1st round loss
'07 1st round loss
'08 2nd round loss to a team without a coach
+1
The Final Four "bump" didn't materialize until after TC left town.
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I have said it, fluffy has said it. Right now, Wojo is Crean without the final 4 run. Can Wojo improve?
I tend to think he is the inverse of Deane. Can recruit well but challenged by coaching. Records are very similar.
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I tend to think he is the inverse of Deane. Can recruit well but challenged by coaching. Records are very similar.
I don't get this comparison. The trend lines are opposite each other as is level of competition.
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I have said it, fluffy has said it. Right now, Wojo is Crean without the final 4 run. Can Wojo improve?
The above rings far more true than this:
I tend to think he is the inverse of Deane. Can recruit well but challenged by coaching. Records are very similar.
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'08 2nd round loss to a team without a coach
I might add the first round game plan was assigned to a first year assistant who was going up against his old boss.
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If Wojo doesn’t win a NCAA tournament game this year he should be fired. The program has gone backwards under his leadership. There is zero enthusiasm, zero “buzz” and zero positivity come out of The Al. It’s all spin.
I’d be shocked if we make the NCAA.
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If Wojo doesn’t win a NCAA tournament game this year he should be fired. The program has gone backwards under his leadership. There is zero enthusiasm, zero “buzz” and zero positivity come out of The Al. It’s all spin.
I’d be shocked if we make the NCAA.
Mr. Positive speaks.
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Well, if Wojo is Crean without the final 4, remembering PRN's antipathy toward Crean, his attitude is consistent.
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If Wojo doesn’t win a NCAA tournament game this year he should be fired. The program has gone backwards under his leadership. There is zero enthusiasm, zero “buzz” and zero positivity come out of The Al. It’s all spin.
I don't disagree.
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If Wojo doesn’t win a NCAA tournament game this year he should be fired. The program has gone backwards under his leadership. There is zero enthusiasm, zero “buzz” and zero positivity come out of The Al. It’s all spin.
I’d be shocked if we make the NCAA.
Really? This year? BET.
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I think Wojo is gone, if he strikes out on his remaining big recruiting targets. He will not be fired, but he will realize that it is to hard to recruit at MU and move on.
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I think many would like to see annual results similar to last season minus the NCAA result. 2nd in league, be respectable in conference tourney, be competitive v rivals and bigger name opponents. That’s what people are seeking. Obviously he needs to win in the NCAA’s. Missed opportunity not winning the league last year.
Prior to last year there were three seasons of essentially .500 middle of pack Big East Teams. That isn’t going to be good enough long term as the norm.
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Mr. Positive speaks.
When Butch speaks.....
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I think Wojo is gone, if he strikes out on his remaining big recruiting targets. He will not be fired, but he will realize that it is two hard to recruit at MU and move on.
That is my fear as well. Need this recruiting class to come through for both the fans and wojos sanity. If he comes through, the programs direction will be decidedly forward because coaching consistency will pay off with more wins.
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That is my fear as well. Need this recruiting class to come through for both the fans and wojos sanity. If he comes through, the programs direction will be decidedly forward because coaching consistency will pay off with more wins.
Playing devils advocate a bit here, but what if the season is a rousing success and another school he can’t turn down poaches him?
Chances are, the class will be lost. It’s a weird place to be in
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I think Wojo is gone, if he strikes out on his remaining big recruiting targets. He will not be fired, but he will realize that it is two hard to recruit at MU and move on.
Why would he do that, and where does he think he's going to go where the recruiting is easier and the pay is better?
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I agree that could happen. Hoping that both will occur and we are off to the races the next four years or so.
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I think Wojo is gone, if he strikes out on his remaining big recruiting targets. He will not be fired, but he will realize that it is two hard to recruit at MU and move on.
Maybe he should have at least 1 NCAA victory in the last 5 years. That might help his cause.
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Why would he do that, and where does he think he's going to go where the recruiting is easier and the pay is better?
My opinion is that both O'Neal and Crean left for schools they thought were easier to recruit to. A disappointing class for Wojo does not indicate positive on court success in the near future for Wojo. He be smart to depart while he can. It could be a Virginia Tech type move.
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I usually have higher expectations than most here...but to be honest, I'm not expecting much at all from this year's team. Just think they are going to struggle offensively. Some games, painfully so. It was a bitter reality to face the fact that MU will likely never win another national Championship in my lifetime, and, given the current state of the program, that seems so far off. I'm just really soured on Wojo's whole tenure, that I just accept this is likely the way things are going to be for the forseeable future. A mediocre (to slightly above) seasons that has/have decent regular season success, but doesn't win much(if at all) come tournament time. It sucks, but after 5 years we don't have any evidence to suggest otherwise. It is what it is. I don''t see MU getting rid of him anytime soon and that's their prerogative. I don't have much choice but to just accept whatever will be, will be.
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My opinion is that both O'Neal and Crean left for schools they thought were easier to recruit to. A disappointing class for Wojo does not indicate positive on court success in the near future for Wojo. He be smart to depart while he can. It could be a Virginia Tech type move.
Barring a fantastic season with significant post season success I don't see a P6 school that would take him. If Marquette hired a coach to replace him that had a similar resume to Wojo's this board would be in full meltdown mode and rightfully so. I think any P6 AD would steer clear of trying to sell Wojo to his president, booster and fans.
I'm not trying to be a Wojo hater, I think he is classy, runs a clean and is very good in the community but the resume is very weak.
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Please address these questions to Herman Cain. We don’t need a poll, he can simply tell us straight from the parents of recruits we are going after, which is all that really matters.
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My opinion is that both O'Neal and Crean left for schools they thought were easier to recruit to. A disappointing class for Wojo does not indicate positive on court success in the near future for Wojo. He be smart to depart while he can. It could be a Virginia Tech type move.
They left for bigger programs that provided bigger paychecks.
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I usually have higher expectations than most here...but to be honest, I'm not expecting much at all from this year's team. Just think they are going to struggle offensively. Some games, painfully so. It was a bitter reality to face the fact that MU will likely never win another national Championship in my lifetime, and, given the current state of the program, that seems so far off. I'm just really soured on Wojo's whole tenure, that I just accept this is likely the way things are going to be for the forseeable future. A mediocre (to slightly above) seasons that has/have decent regular season success, but doesn't win much(if at all) come tournament time. It sucks, but after 5 years we don't have any evidence to suggest otherwise. It is what it is. I don''t see MU getting rid of him anytime soon and that's their prerogative. I don't have much choice but to just accept whatever will be, will be.
Gosh, I hope you are wrong.
Again, as I said before, to measure Wojo you have to begin by setting expectations. You can't measure a space without a ruler and you can't measure Wojo's performance without an expectation.
Rule 1: We're not Vanderbilt. Or Stanford, Missouri, Arkansas, Minnesota, Washington etc. WE ARE MARQUETTE. It is not unreasonable to expect us to consistently compete for the Conference Championship, a Top 4 seed and most years to be in the conversation as one of the best teams in the country. If we want to be Vanderbilt, OK. Means we will be good once in awhile, bad occasionally and mediocre most of the time.
Rule 2: Being good and being good at it are not mutually exclusive. It means we can be a very good basketball team following whatever rules exist in the future. But, you say, people won't come to Milwaukee (which has been an argument in years past). Horses*it! If you're a consistent Top 25 team, they'll come, whether you're in Milwaukee, Spokane or Bismarck, ND. You have to recruit hard and successfully and then put players in the NBA.
My own feeling is I like what we once were. People FEARED US! They looked at people like Bob Lackey, Maurice Lucas or Gary Brell and said, "yikes!" I want to be feared again! I want people to see our guys walk out on the floor and shiver because we're tough as nails and have a really nasty attitude. Closest guys to making us that are Theo and Ed. You get fouled by Theo and you are "Theoed!"
I want to people to lose their lunch when they hear people scream, "WE ARE MARQUETTE..."
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If Wojo doesn’t win a NCAA tournament game this year he should be fired. The program has gone backwards under his leadership. There is zero enthusiasm, zero “buzz” and zero positivity come out of The Al. It’s all spin.
I’d be shocked if we make the NCAA.
Zero enthusiasm....except for the most sellouts in years. Zero buzz...uhm, ok. Hilarious. Why don’t you throw that big omen of yours around, or maybe make a donation to the American CANCER Society with it.
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I think Wojo is gone, if he strikes out on his remaining big recruiting targets. He will not be fired, but he will realize that it is to hard to recruit at MU and move on.
And based on the stupidity of this legislation being passed, he would be smart to get out and go to where the power consolidation will further solidify.
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Gosh, I hope you are wrong.
Again, as I said before, to measure Wojo you have to begin by setting expectations. You can't measure a space without a ruler and you can't measure Wojo's performance without an expectation.
Rule 1: We're not Vanderbilt. Or Stanford, Missouri, Arkansas, Minnesota, Washington etc. WE ARE MARQUETTE. It is not unreasonable to expect us to consistently compete for the Conference Championship, a Top 4 seed and most years to be in the conversation as one of the best teams in the country. If we want to be Vanderbilt, OK. Means we will be good once in awhile, bad occasionally and mediocre most of the time.
Rule 2: Being good and being good at it are not mutually exclusive. It means we can be a very good basketball team following whatever rules exist in the future. But, you say, people won't come to Milwaukee (which has been an argument in years past). Horses*it! If you're a consistent Top 25 team, they'll come, whether you're in Milwaukee, Spokane or Bismarck, ND. You have to recruit hard and successfully and then put players in the NBA.
My own feeling is I like what we once were. People FEARED US! They looked at people like Bob Lackey, Maurice Lucas or Gary Brell and said, "yikes!" I want to be feared again! I want people to see our guys walk out on the floor and shiver because we're tough as nails and have a really nasty attitude. Closest guys to making us that are Theo and Ed. You get fouled by Theo and you are "Theoed!"
I want to people to lose their lunch when they hear people scream, "WE ARE MARQUETTE..."
Let's take the past 30 years of your example.
Marquette? 16 NCAA appearances. Vandy? 13. Marquette Sweet 16's? 5. Vandy? 4. Marquette has the elite 8 team and Final Four team. Not too extreme in differences. And one could easily say Marquette has certainly poured more resources into its efforts than Vandy.
The point is this has been the past THIRTY years. The first thing is to accept reality of where Marquette is now, recent past, distant past etc...
Considering the resources, investment, and other factors, expectations do not need to be low. I'd like to see Marquette be a top 15 program which is a pretty big long term goal. At worst, I'd like to see Marquette be a top 25 program.
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If Wojo doesn’t win a NCAA tournament game this year he should be fired. The program has gone backwards under his leadership. There is zero enthusiasm, zero “buzz” and zero positivity come out of The Al. It’s all spin.
I’d be shocked if we make the NCAA.
If you can't be enthused about having an All-American who's one of the best players in our program's history on the court this season, the issue is not Wojo.
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If you can't be enthused about having an All-American who's one of the best players in our program's history on the court this season, the issue is not Wojo.
The kid that played in the Murray State game? No, I’m not enthused about watching him. It’s great for him when he’s scoring in bunches. The problem is it’s not great for the team or his teammates. Why not ask the players if they enjoy that? When he’s not “hot” it’s so painful that I’ve turned games off. That’s what we’ve all got to look forward to...followed by a ham handed coaching search that best not involve Lovell.
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Please address these questions to Herman Cain. We don’t need a poll, he can simply tell us straight from the parents of recruits we are going after, which is all that really matters.
Remember PM only
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Remember PM only
And not after 8PM....that's Herman time
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I think the offense will struggle early as everyone adjusts to a new system with real competition but I'm generally optimistic about the approach for long term results this season. Additionally the defense with be further improved which will keep them in games that the offense doesn't. I think Wojo is improving as a coach, he's not yet where he needs to be but one thing I've noticed over the last 5 years is he doesn't make the same mistake twice and he adapts. He doesn't have all the answers and he was sheltered by the Duke bubble/Coach K for a long time so he has to learn some things the hard way but I do see him learning. We'll see how this year turns out as it is the pivotal year for him IMO and I'm expecting a top 2 Big East finish and at least one NCAA tournament win.
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I think Wojo had to learn how to coach players who were not McDonald All-Americans.
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IMO, I am much more interested in seeing how this recruiting class unfolds than any on court success for this season. If Wojo can show he can put together a big time recruiting class, it trumps everything else to me.
At this time I am cautiously optimistic and watching closely. If it ends up being a decent class, I would not be too optimistic moving forward. Have mentioned numerous times I like Wojo chasing big time guys and hope he delivers the goods. If does not happen this year, it might never happen for him.
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IMO, I am much more interested in seeing how this recruiting class unfolds than any on court success for this season. If Wojo can show he can put together a big time recruiting class, it trumps everything else to me.
At this time I am cautiously optimistic and watching closely. If it ends up being a decent class, I would not be too optimistic moving forward. Have mentioned numerous times I like Wojo chasing big time guys and hope he delivers the goods. If does not happen this year, it might never happen for him.
Typo?
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Dr. B
Meant to say only a decent, not great class.
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Dr. B
Meant to say only a decent, not great class.
So if he adds Garcia and Davis, is the class decent or great in your definition?
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Dr. B
That would be big time class.
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Dr. B
That would be big time class.
Thanks. Everyone’s definition is different. Plenty of playing time to sell. November is a big month for MUBB on and off the court. I too think that would be a monster class.
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Totally agree w/Goose. If we get Davis, et al I'll likely forgive any on-court sins this season
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IMO, I am much more interested in seeing how this recruiting class unfolds than any on court success for this season. If Wojo can show he can put together a big time recruiting class, it trumps everything else to me.
At this time I am cautiously optimistic and watching closely. If it ends up being a decent class, I would not be too optimistic moving forward. Have mentioned numerous times I like Wojo chasing big time guys and hope he delivers the goods. If does not happen this year, it might never happen for him.
Totally agree w/Goose. If we get Davis, et al I'll likely forgive any on-court sins this season
RJ Davis has the type of talent that can totally alter the trajectory of Wojo's coaching career at MU. Lets keep thinking good thoughts.
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That’s what the most hopeful of Wojo supporters have been saying regarding this class since before last season ended. The 2020 recruiting class is the defining moment in the Wojo regime. It was and is worth waiting into the sixth year to see it. Firing him after last year, even after Hauser gate, was not seeing the forest through the trees.
Glad to see people coming around on the thought process. Of course, success on the court this year in combination with a great class helps immensely. Opens up the floodgates to future success. Rooting hard for both.
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I wish I was as optimistic as you. I believe this team to be more in the 20-25 region and I don't expect us to even sniff at the top 10. An NCAA win is the minimum for me. If we make the tourney and win a game there, that will be proof to me that Wojo has evolved as a coach to a significant degree. It seems to me the Big East will be better than last season and that we have a bit less talent than last season. I do hope the rookies and red shirts can take up the slack and prove me wrong.
Go Warriors!
This is how I feel
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Agree with Goose and Boone. If Wojo lands Davis and Garcia I'd consider this a "home run" class. I would want Wojo around at least through 21-22 to see how he develops it. If he misses on both, though, this season (for me, anyway) becomes do or die.
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Agree with Goose and Boone. If Wojo lands Davis and Garcia I'd consider this a "home run" class. I would want Wojo around at least through 21-22 to see how he develops it. If he misses on both, though, this season (for me, anyway) becomes do or die.
What's the ruling if no Dawson but yes RJ ?
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What's the ruling if no Dawson but yes RJ ?
For me that gives Wojo both this year and next to prove his case but not automatically year 3.
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It’s all about on court performance. Recruiting can be interesting and even fun, but results are results regardless of recruiting rankings. (Good, bad, or average)
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It’s all about on court performance. Recruiting can be interesting and even fun, but results are results regardless of recruiting rankings. (Good, bad, or average)
Ultimately, yes. But a top 10 (maybe a top 5) recruiting class is a coup that (rightly, IMO) buys a coach more time.
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For me that gives Wojo both this year and next to prove his case but not automatically year 3.
You going to cancel those huge donations and season tickets if it doesn't work out?
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Ultimately, yes. But a top 10 (maybe a top 5) recruiting class is a coup that (rightly, IMO) buys a coach more time.
A completely fair statement, but I don't think we should count our chickens before Wojo wins with these guys. He got the first McDonald's All American in 30 years and couldn't even make the NIT.
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You going to cancel those huge donations and season tickets if it doesn't work out?
My huge donations go to the charities - use your insider contacts at the IRS to find out which ones/how huge. Dropped my season tickets when I moved to Naples.
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My huge donations go to the charities - use your insider contacts at the IRS to find out which ones/how huge. Dropped my season tickets when I moved to Naples.
Italy or Florida?
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Italy or Florida?
We do have a poster who moved to Italy but it's not me.
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Shoothoops
It all comes down to long term goals for program. For me, this season is far more about the recruiting than on court success. Of course I want to have both, but looking long term here. If he lands a top five recruiting class than the cupboard is not bare and success will happen on the court.
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My huge donations go to the charities - use your insider contacts at the IRS to find out which ones/how huge. Dropped my season tickets when I moved to Naples.
No contacts at IRS, I simply pay what Sammy tells me to, but speaking of IRS and how much it costs in FL vs IL, I get the move. Bonita Springs, down there from time to time....know several MU fans down there that get to 5 or more games a year...need to step up your game. :D
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Shoothoops
It all comes down to long term goals for program. For me, this season is far more about the recruiting than on court success. Of course I want to have both, but looking long term here. If he lands a top five recruiting class than the cupboard is not bare and success will happen on the court.
Brother Goose:
For me, it is put-up or shut-up time. We have a candidate for National POY this year. We have depth we have not had in a long time and we have a power game inside. Hausershima notwithstanding, this is the year that Wojo has everything and it's time to see what he is made of.
The recruiting is a major part of the package and if we fail, there will be problems ahead. But at this point, Coach Wojo has to take what he has and meld them into a second week of the tournament team. Anything less and one must candidly wonder about the direction of the program.
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No contacts at IRS, I simply pay what Sammy tells me to, but speaking of IRS and how much it costs in FL vs IL, I get the move. Bonita Springs, down there from time to time....know several MU fans down there that get to 5 or more games a year...need to step up your game. :D
Most correct, Cheeks! The tax benefits are extremely nice!
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Brother Goose:
For me, it is put-up or shut-up time. We have a candidate for National POY this year. We have depth we have not had in a long time and we have a power game inside. Hausershima notwithstanding, this is the year that Wojo has everything and it's time to see what he is made of.
The recruiting is a major part of the package and if we fail, there will be problems ahead. But at this point, Coach Wojo has to take what he has and meld them into a second week of the tournament team. Anything less and one must candidly wonder about the direction of the program.
You're certainly allowed to have this opinion, but just know, that based on the poll, you are in the minority here.
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Most correct, Cheeks! The tax benefits are extremely nice!
Yup, just don’t let all the newbies destroy it like they are trying to do elsewhere.
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You're certainly allowed to have this opinion, but just know, that based on the poll, you are in the minority here.
But a healthy majority wants a NCAA win. Will be interesting to come back to this thread in March.
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But a healthy majority wants a NCAA win. Will be interesting to come back to this thread in March.
But if we flame out again would you burn up the upcoming incredible class by firing Wojo? (assuming we get Davis and Garcia as well) I'd sacrifice a round of 32 this year to keep those four.
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But if we flame out again would you burn up the upcoming incredible class by firing Wojo? (assuming we get Davis and Garcia as well) I'd sacrifice a round of 32 this year to keep those four.
I think this is about right. I stand by what I said 4 pages ago.
I try to look at a season in its entirety and not judge based on a system where one bad performance will send you home. That being said, if you get 4 years of Markus and can't turn that into even a single NCAA tournament win, that's a major red flag. The only way that one and done wouldn't be enough to convince me it's time for him to go is if he brings in 2 of AJ, RJ, Dawson, and Suggs. Our class right now is good but not program changing, however that would/could be a lot of potentially incoming talent that would likely be gone.
And what I said 3 pages ago.
Wojo is 0-2 in tournament games with 2 blowouts. Cause for concern? Yes. Grounds for dismissal? IMO, no. Could he go 0-3 and keep his job? Probably. 0-4? Probably not, but a high buyout might save him for a year. 0-5? Immediate termination. At some point "crapshoot" has to turn into "this inability to win a tournament game is a very serious problem that no amount of good recruiting or lack of off-court issues an make up for". Some people are already at this level. The silent majority does not appear to be there. Yet.
This seems to be about the pulse of the "silent" majority.
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Brother Goose:
For me, it is put-up or shut-up time. We have a candidate for National POY this year. We have depth we have not had in a long time and we have a power game inside. Hausershima notwithstanding, this is the year that Wojo has everything and it's time to see what he is made of.
The recruiting is a major part of the package and if we fail, there will be problems ahead. But at this point, Coach Wojo has to take what he has and meld them into a second week of the tournament team. Anything less and one must candidly wonder about the direction of the program.
You have a very long term perspective on the program and have seen coaches come and go. That is why what you are saying resonates with me.
I will add that our league this year is tougher for sure, but it has no super dominant team. So with a tough schedule ,MU can do well enough in the regular season to get a high NET ranking and drive the highest possible seed going into the NCAA tournament.
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But if we flame out again would you burn up the upcoming incredible class by firing Wojo? (assuming we get Davis and Garcia as well) I'd sacrifice a round of 32 this year to keep those four.
Eh - so he can underperform with them for 4 years? At some point recruits have to turn into results.
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I'm not on the fire Wojo train yet, but regardless it's not worth keeping a coach for a recruiting class if you are convinced the coach doesn't have it. The sooner you cut bait the better, because eventually the new guy will have to deal with it all burning down anyway.
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Eh - so he can underperform with them for 4 years? At some point recruits have to turn into results.
Agree to disagree. dont get me wrong I don't think keeping a coach for a single recruit is a great idea, but a class like this I'd give him a longer leash.
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Eh - so he can underperform with them for 4 years? At some point recruits have to turn into results.
I wouldn't give him 4 years with this recruiting class but if he lands RJ and Garcia I lengthen the leash and give him at least 2.
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I wouldn't give him 4 years with this recruiting class but if he lands RJ and Garcia I lengthen the leash and give him at least 2.
I echo this sentiment..He lands those two, and my rope with him would be a bit longer..that being said, if there isn't at LEAST one second weekend tourney appearance in those two years..He'd be gone.
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I echo this sentiment..He lands those two, and my rope with him would be a bit longer..that being said, if there isn't at LEAST one second weekend tourney appearance in those two years..He'd be gone.
I'm not on the fire Wojo train yet, but regardless it's not worth keeping a coach for a recruiting class if you are convinced the coach doesn't have it. The sooner you cut bait the better, because eventually the new guy will have to deal with it all burning down anyway.
The best thing that happened is that Va Tech showed Wojo some love last year.
This year Wojo should move up the pecking order on the coaching carousel as a lot of good jobs were filled last year .
Shaka on the hot seat this year, would be ironic if Wojo ended up filling the Texas job.
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The best thing that happened is that Va Tech showed Wojo some love last year.
This year Wojo should move up the pecking order on the coaching carousel as a lot of good jobs were filled last year .
Shaka on the hot seat this year, would be ironic if Wojo ended up filling the Texas job.
That would not be ironic. It could be ironic if then Shaka came here.
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If he lands Davis and Garcia, he has two more years in my book. To date, I think his tenure has graded out as a D, land this recruiting class I am all in for two more years.
Regardless if he can coach a lick, if you have players it covers a lot of sins. I want to watch big time players and he might be on to something. If he whiffs, he better learn to coach quickly.
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I'm sure Wojo is greatly relieved that anonymous message board dudes are willing to give him an extra year or two if he lands the recruits they want.
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Pakuni
He is far from landing recruits that I want, but willing to accept recruits he wants and thinks he can get. If he chases guys and whiffs he is not right guy for the job.
As for me, I would love to be all in, but my life is fine regardless of how it turns out. Honestly, I feel rooting for the future is better than this season success.
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I'm sure Wojo is greatly relieved that anonymous message board dudes are willing to give him an extra year or two if he lands the recruits they want.
Actually I think he's much more relieved that the administration (and many fans on this quasi anonymous message board) are still all in slurps after 5 mediocre seasons.
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Pakuni
He is far from landing recruits that I want, but willing to accept recruits he wants and thinks he can get. If he chases guys and whiffs he is not right guy for the job.
As for me, I would love to be all in, but my life is fine regardless of how it turns out. Honestly, I feel rooting for the future is better than this season success.
This is where I lose you Goose.
Dr. B
That would be big time class.
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Actually I think he's much more relieved that the administration (and many fans on this quasi anonymous message board) are still all in slurps after 5 mediocre seasons.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/MuAmuj8fnmk4rMJ8e9/giphy.gif)
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The best thing that happened is that Va Tech showed Wojo some love last year.
This year Wojo should move up the pecking order on the coaching carousel as a lot of good jobs were filled last year .
Shaka on the hot seat this year, would be ironic if Wojo ended up filling the Texas job.
Unless MU has a great year with a deep NCAA run Wojo would not be on Texas' radar. With the money they have to spend they will be looking for a top tier coach. As of today, I don't think any P6 program would consider Wojo.
I really hope Wojo elevates himself to a candidate for a Texas type job but wants to stay at MU.
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You have a very long term perspective on the program and have seen coaches come and go. That is why what you are saying resonates with me.
I will add that our league this year is tougher for sure, but it has no super dominant team. So with a tough schedule ,MU can do well enough in the regular season to get a high NET ranking and drive the highest possible seed going into the NCAA tournament.
Not THAT LONG. At least I don't think it is long. Though I have to admit, my wife and I went to her Marquette class reunion and we thought we were at the wrong reunion. Too many darn old people there!
As to the program, I've said elsewhere it's all about how you measure success and what your expectations are. I want progress toward being a national title contender. Anything else is being Vanderbilt.
We are Marquette needs to mean something. We are Marquette should be a chant that scares the solid waste out of our opponents. We are Marquette means WE ARE NUMBER 1!
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I'm sure Wojo is greatly relieved that anonymous message board dudes are willing to give him an extra year or two if he lands the recruits they want.
That's what I was thinking, Pak. Lots of "or else" implied in some of these comments.
Or else what? Or else you'll stop cheering for MU or going to games or watching games on TV?
All the bad folks have endured since Al left -- Hank's underperformance, Rick's spectacular flameout, Dukiet's embarrassment, Deane's terrible recruiting and character, KO and Creane and Buzz bolting ... and THIS is what will put them over the edge and make them ex-Warriors?
Shaka on the hot seat this year, would be ironic if Wojo ended up filling the Texas job.
Maybe we can make a trade! Then Shaka can go 11-22 in his second season here, win zero NCAA tourney games and capture the NIT in his fourth season, and everybody can say what a wonder he is!
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Does anyone actually know if the Wojo to VA Tech or UNLV rumors were true? Now that the dust has settled I’d like to know if he was actually considering bailing
As far as his leash, I think we’re a second weekend team this year and if he lands Davis and Garcia I think we’ll finally have the momentum going that we’ve all been hoping for which will equate to long term success.
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Does anyone actually know if the Wojo to VA Tech or UNLV rumors were true? Now that the dust has settled I’d like to know if he was actually considering bailing
As far as his leash, I think we’re a second weekend team this year and if he lands Davis and Garcia I think we’ll finally have the momentum going that we’ve all been hoping for which will equate to long term success.
Nothing official on the Tech dalliance but I’ve heard from a few people that it happened
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Dr. B
When I say "not landing guys I would recruit" is misleading. I hope in the future we are in the mix with the high level of talent that is currently in MKE. There are three big time recruits locally and we are not even able to get a visit from any these guys. I think that Wojo has a great chance of a big time recruiting class this year and hope it is a spring board to be able to recruit even higher rated players.
It was not meant as a jab, simply I hope this is a starting point. Why wouldn't all of us hope we could land a top ten kid down the road? I am hopeful that recruiting this year is start of big things ahead. Again, if he can these guys I am much more optimistic about the future.
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I disagree with the local recruiting concept even wthMKE's recent jump in talent I think in order to become a national program again we have to think bigger and recruit nationally.
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Galway
I meant that level of player, can be locally or anywhere else on the planet. That said, we should never completely whiff on big time local kids, especially if no baggage associated with them
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Dr. B
When I say "not landing guys I would recruit" is misleading. I hope in the future we are in the mix with the high level of talent that is currently in MKE. There are three big time recruits locally and we are not even able to get a visit from any these guys. I think that Wojo has a great chance of a big time recruiting class this year and hope it is a spring board to be able to recruit even higher rated players.
It was not meant as a jab, simply I hope this is a starting point. Why wouldn't all of us hope we could land a top ten kid down the road? I am hopeful that recruiting this year is start of big things ahead. Again, if he can these guys I am much more optimistic about the future.
So if he inks Garcia and Davis with the rest, you are fine? It’s not that you are being critical, it’s that I can’t figure out what would make you happy? It appears it shifts...maybe if you name names that would help me/us understand.
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Galway
I meant that level of player, can be locally or anywhere else on the planet. That said, we should never completely whiff on big time local kids, especially if no baggage associated with them
I understand better what you were getting at now. I don't think there should be any priority on a big local guy if it ends up trying to fit a square peg in a round hole (whether that's personality, position, or whatever). I understand and respect the mentality of "that's our territory we gotta protect it" though.
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Dr. B
If he adds Garcia and Davis I would be a very happy Warrior fan. As I have said several times, I would rather see a foundation for long term success be established with this recruiting class. Then, hopefully he is able to recruit even higher rated, or similar rated, with a higher degree of success.
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That said, it's clear that Wojo wants to define "our territory" as bigger than just Milwaukee and Wisconsin. He's heavily recruited other Midwestern states -- including Minnesota, Michigan and Illinois -- and gotten his share of commitments.
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Marcus
Great programs recruit nationally and Wojo is doing that. In addition, great programs normally land local studs, or at least are in the mix.
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Dr. B
If he adds Garcia and Davis I would be a very happy Warrior fan. As I have said several times, I would rather see a foundation for long term success be established with this recruiting class. Then, hopefully he is able to recruit even higher rated, or similar rated, with a higher degree of success.
I absolutely want the scenario you are describing.
However, for reality and expectation sake, how many coaches at MU in the last 40 years have put together not only a class equivalent to Davis/Garcia/osa/Lewis, but went on to put together successive and higher ranked classes?
I think you're talking about perhaps wojo being the greatest recruiter (based on high school rankings) in MU history.
That's lofty.
We'd all be onboard, of course. But it's a bit of a stretch for that to be the bar.
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I absolutely want the scenario you are describing.
However, for reality and expectation sake, how many coaches at MU in the last 40 years have put together not only a class equivalent to Davis/Garcia/osa/Lewis, but went on to put together successive and higher ranked classes?
I think you're talking about perhaps wojo being the greatest recruiter (based on high school rankings) in MU history.
That's lofty.
We'd all be onboard, of course. But it's a bit of a stretch for that to be the bar.
How many coaches at MU in the last 40 years won zero NCAA Tournament games in their first 5 seasons? So far, Wojo’s recruited at the level expected of an MU coach, but hasn’t matched the on-court expectations. He needs a home run recruiting class to get the growing population of skeptics back on his side. Landing one of Davis or Garcia would help immensely with that.
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Wojo lost 3 of the 4 recruits when Buzz left and has still averaged 21 wins since that first year with 2 NCAA appearances in the 5 years with his initial season being the 13-19 year. It wasn't like he inherited a ton of players when he arrived.
Maybe I've been following this stuff for too long and don't understand how easy it is for Marquette to rebuild. Some here act like he's done an absolute terrible job and I guess I don't see it.
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How many coaches at MU in the last 40 years won zero NCAA Tournament games in their first 5 seasons? So far, Wojo’s recruited at the level expected of an MU coach, but hasn’t matched the on-court expectations. He needs a home run recruiting class to get the growing population of skeptics back on his side. Landing one of Davis or Garcia would help immensely with that.
The lack of NCAA wins is a disappointment and certainly a blemish on Wojo's tenure so far.
It's also a single data point that same people like to harp incessantly upon because Wojo isn't Buzz.
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Wojo lost 3 of the 4 recruits when Buzz left and has still averaged 21 wins since that first year with 2 NCAA appearances in the 5 years with his initial season being the 13-19 year. It wasn't like he inherited a ton of players when he arrived.
Maybe I've been following this stuff for too long and don't understand how easy it is for Marquette to rebuild. Some here act like he's done an absolute terrible job and I guess I don't see it.
My worry at least has been that for Wojo, the payoff for the slower rebuild was Markus’ junior and senior year. That’s when our talent would be experienced and from there we keep the momentum moving.
The first benchmark year ended with a thud. It was off to a great start but injuries and possibly team chemistry sent it off course. The latter I blame on coaching.
Now, the team we all waited for doesn’t look like why we expected. I’m hoping for a successful year and a run in the tourney. If Wojo pulls in Davis and Garcia, the future looks bright. If we flame out at the end of the year and those two go elsewhere, the future looks like more of the same.
I think this is a big year. My worry is do we have to wait for an anchor class to gain experience to do anything in the tourney and constantly be up and down? Or will Wojo keep recruiting at a high level and have some balance so we can be a consistent tourney team with some threats at deep runs every few years.
I think the angst is around the past 5 years all that we can expect going forward, or are there brighter days ahead.
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I absolutely want the scenario you are describing.
However, for reality and expectation sake, how many coaches at MU in the last 40 years have put together not only a class equivalent to Davis/Garcia/osa/Lewis, but went on to put together successive and higher ranked classes?
I think you're talking about perhaps wojo being the greatest recruiter (based on high school rankings) in MU history.
That's lofty.
We'd all be onboard, of course. But it's a bit of a stretch for that to be the bar.
I don't think it's that lofty...after all, he came to MU with a reputation as one of the best recruiters in the country.
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Wojo lost 3 of the 4 recruits when Buzz left and has still averaged 21 wins since that first year with 2 NCAA appearances in the 5 years with his initial season being the 13-19 year. It wasn't like he inherited a ton of players when he arrived.
Maybe I've been following this stuff for too long and don't understand how easy it is for Marquette to rebuild. Some here act like he's done an absolute terrible job and I guess I don't see it.
It's all spin.
We have averaged above .500 in conference and 21 wins the past 4 years we've been consistently beaten high major teams and picked up top 100 recruits.
Vs
We've seen tons of our most talented recruits leave for the Pros or transfer before they matriculate for us. We've looked lost in NCAA tournament games and when we were all set to qualify for a bid in the NIT year we peed down our leg against Depaul causing us to miss the big tournament.
Version A he's getting a good grade, version B he's getting a bad grade. I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle
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Version A he's getting a good grade, version B he's getting a bad grade. I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle
That is why I just look at KenPom. It says the history isn't up to the objectives I have been told Marquette sets...the future is judgement - which reasonable people can differ on.
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It's all spin.
We have averaged above .500 in conference and 21 wins the past 4 years we've been consistently beaten high major teams and picked up top 100 recruits.
Vs
We've seen tons of our most talented recruits leave for the Pros or transfer before they matriculate for us. We've looked lost in NCAA tournament games and when we were all set to qualify for a bid in the NIT year we peed down our leg against Depaul causing us to miss the big tournament.
Version A he's getting a good grade, version B he's getting a bad grade. I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle
Right, wrong, or indifferent, Buzz won 8 NCAA games (2 sweet 16’s an elite 8, etc) in his first 5 seasons at Marquette. Prior to that Crean took Marquette to a Final Four during his 9 seasons. (His 4th season)
That has been the most recent history prior to Wojo.
Higher levels of NCAA success in less amount of time.
On paper this year could be a 2nd weekend MU team. (I do have my Free throw and jump shooting concerns)
Getting to the 2nd weekend this season will quiet down the critics a bit along with returning players, recruiting classes, etc...with the expectation that he can sustain it year in and year out long term. MU devotes more resources and $ than many for its men’s hoops program.
So, this is part of what you are seeing and experiencing from some others. They care about NCAA results (among other results) and that is what they want to see as opposed to counting number of wins per season.
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I keep wondering how much better each of your lives would of been the last few months, if we had beaten Murray St.
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I keep wondering how much better each of your lives would of been the last few months, if we had beaten Murray St.
I think for those people, it’s the repeated inability to make it to the 2nd weekend one time, or make NCAA’s 1-2 more times or win one game multiple times in that span, something, vs a goose egg. So as the years progress, the topic grows louder and venters vent.
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I keep wondering how much better each of your lives would of been the last few months, if we had beaten Murray St.
I know I'd have a house paid off, a wife, kids, and my dreams job. So I blame Wojo for all that.
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How many coaches at MU in the last 40 years won zero NCAA Tournament games in their first 5 seasons? So far, Wojo’s recruited at the level expected of an MU coach, but hasn’t matched the on-court expectations. He needs a home run recruiting class to get the growing population of skeptics back on his side. Landing one of Davis or Garcia would help immensely with that.
Ya.
But that has absolutely zero to do with what I was talking about and the post that I was responding to.
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I keep wondering how much better each of your lives would of been the last few months, if we had beaten Murray St.
I was talking to a friend yesterday about what if we hadn’t gotten screwed and beat Seton Hall. The way I see it, we would’ve gone on a run: Big East title, second weekend, the hauser’s wouldn’t have transferred cuz winning cures all, and we’d be researching flights to Atlanta.
Ahh seashells and balloons
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Ya.
But that has absolutely zero to do with what I was talking about and the post that I was responding to.
You asked how many MU coaches in the last 40 years were able to reel in a landmark recruiting class and sustain that success on the recruiting trail. I’d say Crean did it with the Three Amigos. That class set the stage for the best 10 year run we’ve since Al, in recruiting and on the court. It even helped bridge the gap between coaches. Buzz was able to do it, too. Say what you will about his last year here, but his final class (JJJ, Burton, Duane) was very highly ranked, and he had Hill and Shayok coming in. IIRC, even Cohen was top 100. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but it looked great on paper. So right there we have two examples of guys who parlayed good recruiting classes into sustained success.
I don’t think it’s too lofty to expect even more from Wojo on the recruiting trail now that he’s been here for five years. After all, we’re on an upward trajectory, right?
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My worry at least has been that for Wojo, the payoff for the slower rebuild was Markus’ junior and senior year. That’s when our talent would be experienced and from there we keep the momentum moving.
The first benchmark year ended with a thud. It was off to a great start but injuries and possibly team chemistry sent it off course. The latter I blame on coaching.
Now, the team we all waited for doesn’t look like why we expected.
Right. Any complaints during Wojo's year 4 regression to the NIT were met with how great Year 5 and 6 were gonna be. Locker room imploded instead, and now predictions are that we'll be worse than last year.
People say this is a big year for Wojo, but I don't think so. We'll probably make the tourney, maybe even win a game, but this won't be the contender that was discussed. Then our two best players will leave and we'll enter Year 7 after a whole offseason of the same arguments.
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Wojo lost 3 of the 4 recruits when Buzz left and has still averaged 21 wins since that first year with 2 NCAA appearances in the 5 years with his initial season being the 13-19 year. It wasn't like he inherited a ton of players when he arrived.
Maybe I've been following this stuff for too long and don't understand how easy it is for Marquette to rebuild. Some here act like he's done an absolute terrible job and I guess I don't see it.
A lot of the concern comes from player retention.
Wojo by the end of this year will have seen 3 players play 4 years for him. He's lost the mass majority of every recruiting class he has had (regardless of the reasons)
We're not talking about players who lacked talent, mu has been losing very good talent year after year. That is a huge concern.
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nm
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A lot of the concern comes from player retention.
Wojo by the end of this year will have seen 3 players play 4 years for him. He's lost the mass majority of every recruiting class he has had (regardless of the reasons)
We're not talking about players who lacked talent, mu has been losing very good talent year after year. That is a huge concern.
Honestly, though, you could say the same for Buzz with potential four-year players (i.e. non JUCOs).
And that's not a knock on Buzz. It's just the nature of college basketball these days.
His first full recruiting class was Cadougan, Williams and Mbao. Two of three left early.
Next was Blue, Smith, Jones and Gardner. Three of four left early.
Next was Mayo, Anderson and Wilson. Mayo didn't last and Adnerson announced his transfer, only to return. So, one of threedidn't stay four years.
Next was Jamal Ferguson and Steve Taylor. Neither lasted four years at MU.
The next class shouldn't be counted, since they only had one year under Buzz. But if you are counting, only one of four played four years at MU.
So, among Buzz's first four classes, only four of 12 lasted four years at MU (and five of 16 if you count his last class, which I'm not).
Again, not a knock on Buzz. Just the way it works.
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A lot of the concern comes from player retention.
Wojo by the end of this year will have seen 3 players play 4 years for him. He's lost the mass majority of every recruiting class he has had (regardless of the reasons)
We're not talking about players who lacked talent, mu has been losing very good talent year after year. That is a huge concern.
I think this has been Wojo's biggest problem. To be consistently good you need elite talent(Kentucky, Duke) or you need a lot of experience. Wojo's teams have seen too many players transfer out.
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You asked how many MU coaches in the last 40 years were able to reel in a landmark recruiting class and sustain that success on the recruiting trail. I’d say Crean did it with the Three Amigos. That class set the stage for the best 10 year run we’ve since Al, in recruiting and on the court. It even helped bridge the gap between coaches. Buzz was able to do it, too. Say what you will about his last year here, but his final class (JJJ, Burton, Duane) was very highly ranked, and he had Hill and Shayok coming in. IIRC, even Cohen was top 100. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but it looked great on paper. So right there we have two examples of guys who parlayed good recruiting classes into sustained success.
I don’t think it’s too lofty to expect even more from Wojo on the recruiting trail now that he’s been here for five years. After all, we’re on an upward trajectory, right?
Goose said he wanted Dawson and Davis. Plus already having Osa/Lewis. Then said he wanted the expectation to be classes/talent higher than those.
So, while the amigos and some of Buzz's recruits were solid top 100, I don't believe either had multiple top 5 classes in a row.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Remember, goose didn't say "sustain that level" (the potential 2020 class of 4). He said he wanted higher after that.
Also, what were Creans class rankings post-Amigos? And Buzz each year? Again, purely based on memory, but I don't remember either of those coaches having top 5+ classes year after year.
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Honestly, though, you could say the same for Buzz with potential four-year players (i.e. non JUCOs).
And that's not a knock on Buzz. It's just the nature of college basketball these days.
His first full recruiting class was Cadougan, Williams and Mbao. Two of three left early.
Next was Blue, Smith, Jones and Gardner. Three of four left early.
Next was Mayo, Anderson and Wilson. Mayo didn't last and Adnerson announced his transfer, only to return. So, one of threedidn't stay four years.
Next was Jamal Ferguson and Steve Taylor. Neither lasted four years at MU.
The next class shouldn't be counted, since they only had one year under Buzz. But if you are counting, only one of four played four years at MU.
So, among Buzz's first four classes, only four of 12 lasted four years at MU (and five of 16 if you count his last class, which I'm not).
Again, not a knock on Buzz. Just the way it works.
Buzz succeeded by recruiting Juco stars. Without them he would of had little success. Wojo does not (may not be allowed to) recruit Juco players. It is much harder for him to replace the transfers out. Transfers out are a much bigger issue for Wojo. This forces him to look for grad transfers, which is a one year fix at best.
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Honestly, though, you could say the same for Buzz with potential four-year players (i.e. non JUCOs).
And that's not a knock on Buzz. It's just the nature of college basketball these days.
His first full recruiting class was Cadougan, Williams and Mbao. Two of three left early.
Next was Blue, Smith, Jones and Gardner. Three of four left early.
Next was Mayo, Anderson and Wilson. Mayo didn't last and Adnerson announced his transfer, only to return. So, one of threedidn't stay four years.
Next was Jamal Ferguson and Steve Taylor. Neither lasted four years at MU.
The next class shouldn't be counted, since they only had one year under Buzz. But if you are counting, only one of four played four years at MU.
So, among Buzz's first four classes, only four of 12 lasted four years at MU (and five of 16 if you count his last class, which I'm not).
Again, not a knock on Buzz. Just the way it works.
You forgot jeronne Maymonn
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You forgot jeronne Maymonn
D'oh.
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Buzz succeeded by recruiting Juco stars. Without them he would of had little success. Wojo does not (may not be allowed to) recruit Juco players. It is much harder for him to replace the transfers out. Transfers out are a much bigger issue for Wojo. This forces him to look for grad transfers, which is a one year fix at best.
I'm not making any judgment about who's handled the transfer situation better. Just pointing out that kids not sticking around four years isn't a Wojo issue.
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Wojo gets solid marks in two areas: a)recruiting and b)embracing the tradition of MU basketball.
His recruiting approach is systematic and has shown consistency whether it be high school, transfer or grad transfer. Embracing the tradition of Marquette is a very smart move, it is why he has gotten such a long leash, the school continuing to invest and I also believe it provides a foundation on the recruiting front.
The area that Wojo needs improvement on is his ability to be a top tier winning basketball coach at the high major level. This is year 6. He has a roster that a top tier winning basketball coach at the high major level can win with. So now he needs to demonstrate he can do it.
If he can't produce, then our program becomes Creighton from a performance standpoint, yet we have greater assets to deploy than Creighton. If that is the case, I hope he leaves for good money to some program that needs him. However, if he can produce,that would be great and keep rolling his contract over. If he shows he can perform, the quality of recruits would improve, because he would have something better, proven performance, to sell the recruits on.
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Goose said he wanted Dawson and Davis. Plus already having Osa/Lewis. Then said he wanted the expectation to be classes/talent higher than those.
So, while the amigos and some of Buzz's recruits were solid top 100, I don't believe either had multiple top 5 classes in a row.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Remember, goose didn't say "sustain that level" (the potential 2020 class of 4). He said he wanted higher after that.
Also, what were Creans class rankings post-Amigos? And Buzz each year? Again, purely based on memory, but I don't remember either of those coaches having top 5+ classes year after year.
I guess it comes down to different interpretations of Goose’s post.
I’ve heard it said that Crean never parlayed the Final Four run into future recruiting success. That’s not really true, it just took him a couple years. The best recruits in 2003 weren’t going to decommit from their chosen schools and come to Marquette. It’s a long process. But two years after the FF, the Amigos arrived. And while neither of Crean’s classes after that were top 5, he landed Hayward the following year, and Mbakwe and Christopherson the year after that. So basically, he had that landmark Amigos class, and added one or two studs a year after that with some filler for the other scholarships. That’s how you build a successful program, and I think that’s what Goose was advocating for, though I could be wrong.
I think Garcia and Davis could be Wojo’s version of the Amigos. And at this point, with how his teams have performed in the postseason, I think he needs it.
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I guess it comes down to different interpretations of Goose’s post.
I’ve heard it said that Crean never parlayed the Final Four run into future recruiting success. That’s not really true, it just took him a couple years. The best recruits in 2003 weren’t going to decommit from their chosen schools and come to Marquette. It’s a long process. But two years after the FF, the Amigos arrived. And while neither of Crean’s classes after that were top 5, he landed Hayward the following year, and Mbakwe and Christopherson the year after that. So basically, he had that landmark Amigos class, and added one or two studs a year after that with some filler for the other scholarships. That’s how you build a successful program, and I think that’s what Goose was advocating for, though I could be wrong.
I think Garcia and Davis could be Wojo’s version of the Amigos. And at this point, with how his teams have performed in the postseason, I think he needs it.
Fair enough.
I took his posts at a more literal value. That the class rankings and individual recruit rankings were expected to go up from that potential 2020 class.
In that interpretation (mine), it would put ridiculous expectations on the program.
Yours is certainly not only more attainable, but likely more fair as well
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Buzz succeeded by recruiting Juco stars. Without them he would of had little success. Wojo does not (may not be allowed to) recruit Juco players. It is much harder for him to replace the transfers out. Transfers out are a much bigger issue for Wojo. This forces him to look for grad transfers, which is a one year fix at best.
Wojo takes transfers instead of JUCOs. One or two (or in Gabe's case none) and done. Except to get two, you need to give three years.
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A lot of the concern comes from player retention.
Wojo by the end of this year will have seen 3 players play 4 years for him. He's lost the mass majority of every recruiting class he has had (regardless of the reasons)
We're not talking about players who lacked talent, mu has been losing very good talent year after year. That is a huge concern.
The bolded seems to suggest Wojo is a good coach if he can lose "very good talent" year after year and yet still be an NCAA/NCAA bubble team the last three seasons once he established his program.
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Honestly, though, you could say the same for Buzz with potential four-year players (i.e. non JUCOs).
And that's not a knock on Buzz. It's just the nature of college basketball these days.
His first full recruiting class was Cadougan, Williams and Mbao. Two of three left early.
Next was Blue, Smith, Jones and Gardner. Three of four left early.
Next was Mayo, Anderson and Wilson. Mayo didn't last and Adnerson announced his transfer, only to return. So, one of threedidn't stay four years.
Next was Jamal Ferguson and Steve Taylor. Neither lasted four years at MU.
The next class shouldn't be counted, since they only had one year under Buzz. But if you are counting, only one of four played four years at MU.
So, among Buzz's first four classes, only four of 12 lasted four years at MU (and five of 16 if you count his last class, which I'm not).
Again, not a knock on Buzz. Just the way it works.
By my count, 8 rostered players left MU before completing their eligibility in the 6 seasons Buzz was the coach: P Hazel, J Ferguson, J Jones, R Smith, E Williams, Y Mbao, J Maymon and V Blue. 1 (Hazel) left because he was caught stealing, 1 (Maymon) was kicked off because of his Dad's demands, 5 left due to lack of playing time and 1(Blue) left early to try to go pro. MU lost one valuable season of Blue and Maymon's potential. IOW, not much over 6 years. 14 players (J Dawson, T Mayo, S Cohen, D Burton, S Taylor jr., H Cheatham, H Ellenson, W Ellenson, T Carter, H Frolling, G Levin, Du Wilson, S Hauser and J Hauser) have left MU without completing their eligibility in Wojo's 5 years. 1 (Mayo) was kicked off the team, 1 (W Ellenson) was essentially cut and 2 (Dawson and Frolling left due to lack of playing time. That leaves a "lost" roster of H Ellenson, D Burton, G Levin, S Cohen, S Taylor jr, S Hauser, J Hauser, T Carter and Du Wilson - not an NCAA champ but a great deal more than was lost during the previous regime.
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If Wojo can sign 4 straight top-10 recruiting classes and win a couple of national titles during that span, maybe it'll be OK with me if he stays. But still I'll hope that the Appalachian State job opens and he goes for it. Then we can get Shaka and might never lose another game.
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You missed some during the Buzz regime Lenny:
Scott Christopherson
Liam McMorrow
TJ Taylor
Jameel McKay
I'd also re-categorize your categories of Wojo's departures:
1 (Mayo) was kicked off the team
1 (Wally) was essentially cut
1 (Henry) was a first round draft pick
2 (Deonte and Haanif) left because of family death/illness
7 left because of lack of playing time (Dawson, Froling, Levin, Cohen, Taylor Jr, Carter, and Duane)
Which leaves a "lost" roster of the Hauser Bros.
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You missed some during the Buzz regime Lenny:
Scott Christopherson
Liam McMorrow
TJ Taylor
Jameel McKay
I'd also re-categorize your categories of Wojo's departures:
1 (Mayo) was kicked off the team
1 (Wally) was essentially cut
1 (Henry) was a first round draft pick
2 (Deonte and Haanif) left because of family death/illness
7 left because of lack of playing time (Dawson, Froling, Levin, Cohen, Taylor Jr, Carter, and Duane)
Which leaves a "lost" roster of the Hauser Bros.
No Mbwake love?
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No Mbwake love?
He left during Crean's last year no? Or am I misremembering?
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By my count, 8 rostered players left MU before completing their eligibility in the 6 seasons Buzz was the coach: P Hazel, J Ferguson, J Jones, R Smith, E Williams, Y Mbao, J Maymon and V Blue. 1 (Hazel) left because he was caught stealing, 1 (Maymon) was kicked off because of his Dad's demands, 5 left due to lack of playing time and 1(Blue) left early to try to go pro. MU lost one valuable season of Blue and Maymon's potential. IOW, not much over 6 years. 14 players (J Dawson, T Mayo, S Cohen, D Burton, S Taylor jr., H Cheatham, H Ellenson, W Ellenson, T Carter, H Frolling, G Levin, Du Wilson, S Hauser and J Hauser) have left MU without completing their eligibility in Wojo's 5 years. 1 (Mayo) was kicked off the team, 1 (W Ellenson) was essentially cut and 2 (Dawson and Frolling left due to lack of playing time. That leaves a "lost" roster of H Ellenson, D Burton, G Levin, S Cohen, S Taylor jr, S Hauser, J Hauser, T Carter and Du Wilson - not an NCAA champ but a great deal more than was lost during the previous regime.
If you are counting Mayo against Wojo, why aren’t Scott Christopherson, McKay and a few others counted against Buzz?
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Guys, I believe/hope that recruiting becomes easier with the more success you have. Not every year will you be bringing in 4-5 guys, some years maybe only one. My point is simple, have a big recruiting class this year and build off it.
MU82
You have become an angry man. Actually, sad to see.
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He left during Crean's last year no? Or am I misremembering?
I believe he left right as school started in Buzz’s first year.
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You missed some during the Buzz regime Lenny:
Scott Christopherson
Liam McMorrow
TJ Taylor
Jameel McKay
I'd also re-categorize your categories of Wojo's departures:
1 (Mayo) was kicked off the team
1 (Wally) was essentially cut
1 (Henry) was a first round draft pick
2 (Deonte and Haanif) left because of family death/illness
7 left because of lack of playing time (Dawson, Froling, Levin, Cohen, Taylor Jr, Carter, and Duane)
Which leaves a "lost" roster of the Hauser Bros.
Christopherson - yes, good catch. I don't know if Taylor ever even enrolled and McKay never played (neither were ever rostered players) - but yes. McMorrow was "cut" by our medical staff.
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Guys, I believe/hope that recruiting becomes easier with the more success you have. Not every year will you be bringing in 4-5 guys, some years maybe only one. My point is simple, have a big recruiting class this year and build off it.
MU82
You have become an angry man. Actually, sad to see.
Two days ago, Goose, you said this:
If he lands Davis and Garcia, he has two more years in my book. To date, I think his tenure has graded out as a D, land this recruiting class I am all in for two more years.
So ... my silly, sarcastic post was "angry," but yours was what? Benevolent?
Saying the commenter is "angry" just because you don't like the comment is right out of the hoopaloop playbook, Goose. I expect better from you.
Sorry if that sounded angry.
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IMO comparing number of transfers between different regimes is silly just because of how much the transfer market has exploded in the last 5-10 years. How many consecutive years has the total number of transfers record been re-written?
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Precisely. Last stat I saw said that 40% of basketball players transfer. It may be higher now, as I don't know that considered grad transfers. More every year. Never stop recruiting.
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Christopherson - yes, good catch. I don't know if Taylor ever even enrolled and McKay never played (neither were ever rostered players) - but yes. McMorrow was "cut" by our medical staff.
McKay may not have been a rostered player, but he left because of a Buzz roster decision and left a hole because of the timing. Does it matter if they left “because of the coach” after school starts or “because of the coach” before school starts? Either way, they left.
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McKay was on the roster. He just left before the first game.
TJ Taylor I can't remember if he made the roster or not. My recollection is that he made it to campus and then left
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By my count, 8 rostered players left MU before completing their eligibility in the 6 seasons Buzz was the coach: P Hazel, J Ferguson, J Jones, R Smith, E Williams, Y Mbao, J Maymon and V Blue. 1 (Hazel) left because he was caught stealing, 1 (Maymon) was kicked off because of his Dad's demands, 5 left due to lack of playing time and 1(Blue) left early to try to go pro. MU lost one valuable season of Blue and Maymon's potential. IOW, not much over 6 years. 14 players (J Dawson, T Mayo, S Cohen, D Burton, S Taylor jr., H Cheatham, H Ellenson, W Ellenson, T Carter, H Frolling, G Levin, Du Wilson, S Hauser and J Hauser) have left MU without completing their eligibility in Wojo's 5 years. 1 (Mayo) was kicked off the team, 1 (W Ellenson) was essentially cut and 2 (Dawson and Frolling left due to lack of playing time. That leaves a "lost" roster of H Ellenson, D Burton, G Levin, S Cohen, S Taylor jr, S Hauser, J Hauser, T Carter and Du Wilson - not an NCAA champ but a great deal more than was lost during the previous regime.
As has been pointed out, you left out several players who transferred during Buzz's tenure.
And the notion that Henry was "lost" is silly. He never was sticking around for more than a year. That was the plan from the beginning. You might as well go visit the Duke board and lambaste Coach K for "losing" Zion and RJ Barrett.
Duane Wilson, Levin and Steve Taylor all left over playing time ... as do most transfers.
Really, you're splitting an awful lot of hairs for no reason. Transfers happen to every coach and there is no significant difference in either the number or reasons for transfers between Buzz and Wojo.
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I believe he left right as school started in Buzz’s first year.
Yep.
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And the notion that Henry was "lost" is silly. He never was sticking around for more than a year. That was the plan from the beginning.
Duane Wilson, Levin and Steve Taylor all left over playing time ... as do most transfers.
Really, you're splitting an awful lot of hairs for no reason. Transfers happen to every coach and there is no significant difference in either the number or reasons for transfers between Buzz and Wojo.
While I agree with the general spirit of your post I am going to comment on these three:
The plan with Henry and Wally was two years together.
Most of the transfers listed didn't "leave" because of just playing time. Off court behavior, academics, and handler, coach and AD relationships all played larger roles.
The problem I've had with Wojo's transfers was the timing as they left holes that set program progress back...whereas Crean and Buzz had backup plans (and Larry impacted Buzz's last year more than said here not that Buzz was innocent). Point is, Wojo is much better now at managing roster imbalance (like the Hauser situation...he had a plan).
Crean and Buzz proved they could take MU from Point A to Point C. Wojo (to many except the slurpers) has only proven he can take MU from A to B. November will give us a strong indication if he can also take us to Point C--both off and on the court. I believe he can.
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While I agree with the general spirit of your post I am going to comment on these three:
The plan with Henry and Wally was two years together.
Most of the transfers listed didn't "leave" because of just playing time. Off court behavior, academics, and handler, coach and AD relationships all played larger roles.
The problem I've had with Wojo's transfers was the timing as they left holes that set program progress back...whereas Crean and Buzz had backup plans (and Larry impacted Buzz's last year more than said here not that Buzz was innocent). Point is, Wojo is much better now at managing roster imbalance (like the Hauser situation...he had a plan).
Crean and Buzz proved they could take MU from Point A to Point C. Wojo (to many except the slurpers) has only proven he can take MU from A to B. November will give us a strong indication if he can also take us to Point C--both off and on the court. I believe he can.
While I won't argue that Wojo is in Buzz's league, because that would be silly, I do have to ask this:
What was Buzz's backup plan for Vander's departure -- an event that many blame for the team's suckitude in Buzz's final MU season?
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While I won't argue that Wojo is in Buzz's league, because that would be silly, I do have to ask this:
What was Buzz's backup plan for Vander's departure -- an event that many blame for the team's suckitude in Buzz's final MU season?
Wasn't it Duane Wilson then he broke his foot? Or am I imagining that and it was gonna be Derrick the whole time
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While I agree with the general spirit of your post I am going to comment on these three:
The plan with Henry and Wally was two years together.
Most of the transfers listed didn't "leave" because of just playing time. Off court behavior, academics, and handler, coach and AD relationships all played larger roles.
The problem I've had with Wojo's transfers was the timing as they left holes that set program progress back...whereas Crean and Buzz had backup plans (and Larry impacted Buzz's last year more than said here not that Buzz was innocent). Point is, Wojo is much better now at managing roster imbalance (like the Hauser situation...he had a plan).
Crean and Buzz proved they could take MU from Point A to Point C. Wojo (to many except the slurpers) has only proven he can take MU from A to B. November will give us a strong indication if he can also take us to Point C--both off and on the court. I believe he can.
Respectfully disagree on Henry.
In this Zagsblog previewing his freshman year, he talks about being a one-and-done:
https://www.zagsblog.com/2015/10/14/marquettes-henry-ellenson-could-be-first-big-east-one-and-done-in-three-years/
In this story from during his freshman year, he certainly doesn't slam the door on leaving after one year:
https://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/story/marquette-henry-ellenson-golden-eagles-freshman-nba-draft-lottery-011916
In this story, he says he'd have considered skipping college altogether if the G-League could have offered him the $125K it's offering now.
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2018/10/19/detroit-pistons-g-league-henry-ellenson/1696437002/
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While I agree with the general spirit of your post I am going to comment on these three:
The plan with Henry and Wally was two years together.
Most of the transfers listed didn't "leave" because of just playing time. Off court behavior, academics, and handler, coach and AD relationships all played larger roles.
The problem I've had with Wojo's transfers was the timing as they left holes that set program progress back...whereas Crean and Buzz had backup plans (and Larry impacted Buzz's last year more than said here not that Buzz was innocent). Point is, Wojo is much better now at managing roster imbalance (like the Hauser situation...he had a plan).
Crean and Buzz proved they could take MU from Point A to Point C. Wojo (to many except the slurpers) has only proven he can take MU from A to B. November will give us a strong indication if he can also take us to Point C--both off and on the court. I believe he can.
I agree with this entire analysis, but especially the Ellenson part. There’s no way Wojo would’ve agreed to one year of Henry for three of Wally. What happened with Wally after Henry declared bears that out.
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While I won't argue that Wojo is in Buzz's league, because that would be silly, I do have to ask this:
What was Buzz's backup plan for Vander's departure -- an event that many blame for the team's suckitude in Buzz's final MU season?
I’d say his backup plan was the three highly rated guards he had coming in. Unfortunately, Duane got hurt, JJJ was overrated, young for his age, and mostly in the doghouse, and Deonte...just had kind of a strange freshman season where he showed flashes but never had/seized the opportunity to reach his full potential. Buzz also had one foot out the door that whole year and likely sat Deonte and JJJ more than he should’ve in an attempt to get them to transfer and completely deep six the program following his own departure. I’ve also heard rumors that Duane was healthy enough to play in the second half, but Buzz put the kibosh on that. And I say all this as someone who loves Buzz.
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I’d say his backup plan was the three highly rated guards he had coming in. Unfortunately, Duane got hurt, JJJ was overrated, young for his age, and mostly in the doghouse, and Deonte...just had kind of a strange freshman season where he showed flashes but never had/seized the opportunity to reach his full potential. Buzz also had one foot out the door that whole year and likely sat Deonte and JJJ more than he should’ve in an attempt to get them to transfer and completely deep six the program following his own departure. I’ve also heard rumors that Duane was healthy enough to play in the second half, but Buzz put the kibosh on that. And I say all this as someone who loves Buzz.
I think Buzz is a better coach than your giving him credit. There's zero chance he anticipated either JJJ or Deonte filling Vander's role.
The backup plan for Vander was starting Derrick Wilson.
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MU 82
I think your posts in general have become angry, not specific to any reply on this thread. As for my comment on Wojo having two more years if he lands Davis and Garcia, please read the title of this thread. I was not going off half cocked in a MLB thread and signing off on Wojo having more time. I simply was adding my opinion on the topic being discussed.
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Wasn't it Duane Wilson then he broke his foot? Or am I imagining that and it was gonna be Derrick the whole time
Duane, TJ and Todd. The "Larry Rules" impacted two of those and was in part one of the reasons Vander left. Derrick and Jake were always to be back-ups (and Magic).
The next class was Nick before his personal problems. Not saying it was a good or bad plan, but it was better than what transpired. I am still thankful to Jake and Derrick for being true Warriors.
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Respectfully disagree on Henry.
In this Zagsblog previewing his freshman year, he talks about being a one-and-done:
https://www.zagsblog.com/2015/10/14/marquettes-henry-ellenson-could-be-first-big-east-one-and-done-in-three-years/
In this story from during his freshman year, he certainly doesn't slam the door on leaving after one year:
https://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/story/marquette-henry-ellenson-golden-eagles-freshman-nba-draft-lottery-011916
In this story, he says he'd have considered skipping college altogether if the G-League could have offered him the $125K it's offering now.
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2018/10/19/detroit-pistons-g-league-henry-ellenson/1696437002/
Were those Wojo's plans? Those articles are a bit of a stretch for your argument. I mean, even on the discussion on one and done, Henry talks about Kentucky as an option.
Listen, was it a possibility? Yes. But it wasn't Wojo's original plan. But in the end, Henry did the right thing...and Wojo used three years of scholarship space that arguably slowed rebuilding.
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I see no reason why, at least for now, MU can't be an annual NCAA tourney team. That should be the minimum IMO.
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I believe the 19-20 team is a tourney team. Probably a 5-6 seed.
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I think Wojo's threshold is somewhere between the 5th and 6th (non-Wisconsin) old fashioned.
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While I agree with the general spirit of your post I am going to comment on these three:
The plan with Henry and Wally was two years together.
Most of the transfers listed didn't "leave" because of just playing time. Off court behavior, academics, and handler, coach and AD relationships all played larger roles.
The problem I've had with Wojo's transfers was the timing as they left holes that set program progress back...whereas Crean and Buzz had backup plans (and Larry impacted Buzz's last year more than said here not that Buzz was innocent). Point is, Wojo is much better now at managing roster imbalance (like the Hauser situation...he had a plan).
Crean and Buzz proved they could take MU from Point A to Point C. Wojo (to many except the slurpers) has only proven he can take MU from A to B. November will give us a strong indication if he can also take us to Point C--both off and on the court. I believe he can.
That would surprise me greatly because that draft class the year Henry came out was brutally bad. If he had waited after his sophomore year that class was considered much deeper. I think he and his people had to know fairly early on that the quickest way to get into the league that was also the safest was leaving after year one.
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Duane, TJ and Todd. The "Larry Rules" impacted two of those and was in part one of the reasons Vander left. Derrick and Jake were always to be back-ups (and Magic).
The next class was Nick before his personal problems. Not saying it was a good or bad plan, but it was better than what transpired. I am still thankful to Jake and Derrick for being true Warriors.
Anyone with a sense of ethics would have impacted one of those two guys, so I don’t think it is fair to put that on Larry. That player never should have been on the MU campus at all and I think most AD’s not named Larry would also have said the same.
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Anyone with a sense of ethics would have impacted one of those two guys, so I don’t think it is fair to put that on Larry. That player never should have been on the MU campus at all and I think most AD’s not named Larry would also have said the same.
As usual, you are off the thread topic. The thread, of course, is about having a plan.
As to your claim, all of those were cleared by the NCAA Clearinghouse, all were admitted by Marquette Admissions. One of them was admitted to three different NCAA Division schools. Larry, the AD who was fired by Marquette btw, worked through Pilarz (also fired) to bypass Marquette’s admission policies to that point for student athletes. That was their prerogative. It was also the BOT’s prerogative to get rid of them for their lack of job performance.
So, let’s get this take of yours right: The NCAA is inept, multiple AD’s not named Larry should fired, the MU Admissions should be disbanded. Wojo should be fired as he kept the one you question on the team for almost five months until he was cut for missing the summer sessions to work out with his NBA brother. Lastly, Pilarz and Larry should be enshrined in the MU Wall of Fame for how much they were wronged.
Your takes are so “right on”.
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That would surprise me greatly because that draft class the year Henry came out was brutally bad. If he had waited after his sophomore year that class was considered much deeper. I think he and his people had to know fairly early on that the quickest way to get into the league that was also the safest was leaving after year one.
I think it was the right decision for Henry at the time, and how his career has played out. That was not the plan when he signed.
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MU 82
I think your posts in general have become angry, not specific to any reply on this thread. As for my comment on Wojo having two more years if he lands Davis and Garcia, please read the title of this thread. I was not going off half cocked in a MLB thread and signing off on Wojo having more time. I simply was adding my opinion on the topic being discussed.
I am the happiest, luckiest person I know, Goose. Not angry at all. If you'd like to discuss this further, feel free to PM me. Have a nice night.
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As to your claim, all of those were cleared by the NCAA Clearinghouse, all were admitted by Marquette Admissions. One of them was admitted to three different NCAA Division schools. Larry, the AD who was fired by Marquette btw, worked through Pilarz (also fired) to bypass Marquette’s admission policies to that point for student athletes. That was their prerogative. It was also the BOT’s prerogative to get rid of them for their lack of job performance.
I only commented on one, not all three. Yes, he made it through the clearinghouse....that was not my rationale for why he never should have been here from day one. Not academics.
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A conclusion after reading this (and many other) threads:
Chico talks about connections to "inside information" regarding MU athletics but has none.
Dr B doesn't talk about those same connections but nevertheless has them.
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That would surprise me greatly because that draft class the year Henry came out was brutally bad. If he had waited after his sophomore year that class was considered much deeper. I think he and his people had to know fairly early on that the quickest way to get into the league that was also the safest was leaving after year one.
Off topic a bit but Henry was not well-served by his advisers. He was looking at macro issues and not at his own talent and ability. He has proven to be a marginal NBA talent and is now traversing between the Long Island and Brooklyn Nets.
He's just another Vander Blue.
From Henry's long-term perspective, he should stayed at least two and maybe three years, worked on his game and worked toward a degree. The degree would have served him well and could you have imagined last year's team if we had Sam, Henry, Theo, Markus and Sacar. I think Murray State would still be looking for its head.
MAKE MARQUETTE FEARED AGAIN!!!!!
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Off topic a bit but Henry was not well-served by his advisers. He was looking at macro issues and not at his own talent and ability. He has proven to be a marginal NBA talent and is now traversing between the Long Island and Brooklyn Nets.
He's just another Vander Blue.
From Henry's long-term perspective, he should stayed at least two and maybe three years, worked on his game and worked toward a degree. The degree would have served him well and could you have imagined last year's team if we had Sam, Henry, Theo, Markus and Sacar. I think Murray State would still be looking for its head.
MAKE MARQUETTE FEARED AGAIN!!!!!
Henry made the right choice. With the several million he made, he could still go back to school.
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He's just another Vander Blue.
Respectfully ... no.
Henry already has made what would be life-changing money for most people:
Season Team Lg Salary
2016-17 Detroit Pistons NBA $1,704,120
2017-18 Detroit Pistons NBA $1,780,800
2018-19 Detroit Pistons NBA $1,857,480
2018-19 NY Knicks NBA $427,289
Career (may be incomplete) $5,769,689
Even if he never makes another dime in the NBA, and even if he only took home 40% of that after the agent's cut and taxes (and of course he took home more than that), that's nearly 2.5 million cash dollars.
And he probably will earn plenty more money as a player bouncing around the NBA, Europe, etc; and then he probably could coach for the rest of his life if that's what he chooses to do.
I cannot criticize any student for using college to make more than $2.5 million in his first 3 years out of college, and probably much more after that.
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Henry made the right choice. With the several million he made, he could still go back to school.
Right.
And the notion that he would have developed better/differently at Marquette is misguided. If going against NBA players with NBA coaching in a full-time setting couldn't develop Henry into an NBA regular, a year or two more in college wasn't going to.
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Off topic a bit but Henry was not well-served by his advisers. He was looking at macro issues and not at his own talent and ability. He has proven to be a marginal NBA talent and is now traversing between the Long Island and Brooklyn Nets.
He's just another Vander Blue.
From Henry's long-term perspective, he should stayed at least two and maybe three years, worked on his game and worked toward a degree. The degree would have served him well and could you have imagined last year's team if we had Sam, Henry, Theo, Markus and Sacar. I think Murray State would still be looking for its head.
MAKE MARQUETTE FEARED AGAIN!!!!!
Yeah he made millions before he was old enough to drink. And is still making more on marginal contracts than I do in a year with a masters. I think he was served just fine.
Also it's a myth you don't get better by leaving and sitting on the bench. He's able to focus all his time on practice, weights, etc without school distractions and such.
That all being said Joey probably doesn't come if Henry was still here since they served the same role. But it would've been a great team.
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Off topic a bit but Henry was not well-served by his advisers. He was looking at macro issues and not at his own talent and ability. He has proven to be a marginal NBA talent and is now traversing between the Long Island and Brooklyn Nets.
He's just another Vander Blue.
From Henry's long-term perspective, he should stayed at least two and maybe three years, worked on his game and worked toward a degree. The degree would have served him well and could you have imagined last year's team if we had Sam, Henry, Theo, Markus and Sacar. I think Murray State would still be looking for its head.
MAKE MARQUETTE FEARED AGAIN!!!!!
I understand why people want this to be true, but just completely disagree that he would be better off. He has millions in his pocket and has had the best coaching and facilities the past few years.
Ultimately he is what he is basketball wise. Better to get paid while that conclusion plays out than to prove it to everyone in college and not get drafted.
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Off topic a bit but Henry was not well-served by his advisers. He was looking at macro issues and not at his own talent and ability. He has proven to be a marginal NBA talent and is now traversing between the Long Island and Brooklyn Nets.
He's just another Vander Blue.
From Henry's long-term perspective, he should stayed at least two and maybe three years, worked on his game and worked toward a degree. The degree would have served him well and could you have imagined last year's team if we had Sam, Henry, Theo, Markus and Sacar. I think Murray State would still be looking for its head.
MAKE MARQUETTE FEARED AGAIN!!!!!
I was one of the few people who thought Henry would see the value in staying in school and lead us to a Natty. I was convinced ,as a college basketball player, Henry had the essential ingredients to help get us there. Sort of a Tyler Hansbrough 2.0. However, when he started consistently posting double doubles night after night, it became pretty obvious he would leave under the right circumstances.
Those circumstances came together for him, the draft that year was weak, and there were many scouts who thought he could refine his shot and become a stretch 4. Each week I tracked and posted Henrys mock draft rating and those of the peers Deyonta Davis and Brice Johnson and it was trending that Henry was going to be a middle of the first round pick. So he made the right move. The two other guys turned out to be busts as well. All three that I tracked got three years worth of guaranteed money.
Henry had one year of eligibility left to do a two way contract and luckily found a home for that this year. So given his NBA ability he actually maxed out what he could get domestically. If things work out this year, he may be able to earn a minimum salary spot somewhere for a year. If not, he can finish up his career in one of the higher level overseas leagues and make another 12-15 years or so of good money given his size.
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I was one of the few people who thought Henry would see the value in staying in school and lead us to a Natty. I was convinced ,as a college basketball player, Henry had the essential ingredients to help get us there. Sort of a Tyler Hansbrough 2.0. However, when he started consistently posting double doubles night after night, it became pretty obvious he would leave under the right circumstances.
Those circumstances came together for him, the draft that year was weak, and there were many scouts who thought he could refine his shot and become a stretch 4. Each week I tracked and posted Henrys mock draft rating and those of the peers Deyonta Davis and Brice Johnson and it was trending that Henry was going to be a middle of the first round pick. So he made the right move. The two other guys turned out to be busts as well. All three that I tracked got three years worth of guaranteed money.
Henry had one year of eligibility left to do a two way contract and luckily found a home for that this year. So given his NBA ability he actually maxed out what he could get domestically. If things work out this year, he may be able to earn a minimum salary spot somewhere for a year. If not, he can finish up his career in one of the higher level overseas leagues and make another 12-15 years or so of good money given his size.
The question is whether by waiting longer and spending more time with MU, would his game and his compensation improve?
Who knows?
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The question is whether by waiting longer and spending more time with MU, would his game and his compensation improve?
Who knows?
Don't know why people are bringing up money when it comes to Henry. He would have been feared at MU. That's priceless right there.
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Do expectations for Wojo change if Markus redshirts? ::)
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Listen, was it a possibility? Yes. But it wasn't Wojo's original plan. But in the end, Henry did the right thing...and Wojo used three years of scholarship space that arguably slowed rebuilding.
Young coach, also showing he can land a top 15 kid. Worth the risk at that time, don’t you think?
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Young coach, also showing he can land a top 15 kid. Worth the risk at that time, don’t you think?
I was very vocal at the time on Wojo's early roster management/recruiting efficiency...so the answer is still no in retrospect, maybe even more so. He squandered his opportunities unlike Kieger or Theis when they took over (or Crean and Buzz did at their new stops).
Now, where the program is today in terms of roster development? Yes, he can get one and dones. Back then, he needed to build his program with four year guys.
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I was very vocal at the time on Wojo's early roster management/recruiting efficiency...so the answer is still no in retrospect, maybe even more so. He squandered his opportunities unlike Kieger or Theis when they took over (or Crean and Buzz did at their new stops).
Now, where the program is today in terms of roster development? Yes, he can get one and dones. Back then, he needed to build his program with four year guys.
We will never know. Maybe getting Henry and putting someone in the NBA led to other players landed. Maybe it didn’t. Impossible to prove one way or the other, it I appreciate your POV.