Wojo's Threshold

[BM1090]

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[Pakuni]

A lot of the concern comes from player retention.

Wojo by the end of this year will have seen 3 players play 4 years for him. He's lost the mass majority of every recruiting class he has had (regardless of the reasons)

We're not talking about players who lacked talent, mu has been losing very good talent year after year. That is a huge concern.

Honestly, though, you could say the same for Buzz with potential four-year players (i.e. non JUCOs).
And that's not a knock on Buzz. It's just the nature of college basketball these days.

His first full recruiting class was Cadougan, Williams and Mbao. Two of three left early.
Next was Blue, Smith, Jones and Gardner. Three of four left early.
Next was Mayo, Anderson and Wilson. Mayo didn't last and Adnerson announced his transfer, only to return. So, one of threedidn't stay four years.
Next was Jamal Ferguson and Steve Taylor. Neither lasted four years at MU.
The next class shouldn't be counted, since they only had one year under Buzz. But if you are counting, only one of four played four years at MU.

So, among Buzz's first four classes, only four of 12 lasted four years at MU (and five of 16 if you count his last class, which I'm not).
Again, not a knock on Buzz. Just the way it works.

[bilsu]

A lot of the concern comes from player retention.

Wojo by the end of this year will have seen 3 players play 4 years for him. He's lost the mass majority of every recruiting class he has had (regardless of the reasons)

We're not talking about players who lacked talent, mu has been losing very good talent year after year. That is a huge concern.

I think this has been Wojo's biggest problem. To be consistently good you need elite talent(Kentucky, Duke) or you need a lot of experience. Wojo's teams have seen too many players transfer out.

[jesmu84]

You asked how many MU coaches in the last 40 years were able to reel in a landmark recruiting class and sustain that success on the recruiting trail.  I’d say Crean did it with the Three Amigos.  That class set the stage for the best 10 year run we’ve since Al, in recruiting and on the court.  It even helped bridge the gap between coaches.  Buzz was able to do it, too.  Say what you will about his last year here, but his final class (JJJ, Burton, Duane) was very highly ranked, and he had Hill and Shayok coming in.  IIRC, even Cohen was top 100.  Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but it looked great on paper.  So right there we have two examples of guys who parlayed good recruiting classes into sustained success.

I don’t think it’s too lofty to expect even more from Wojo on the recruiting trail now that he’s been here for five years.  After all, we’re on an upward trajectory, right?

Goose said he wanted Dawson and Davis. Plus already having Osa/Lewis. Then said he wanted the expectation to be classes/talent higher than those.

So, while the amigos and some of Buzz's recruits were solid top 100, I don't believe either had multiple top 5 classes in a row.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Remember, goose didn't say "sustain that level" (the potential 2020 class of 4). He said he wanted higher after that.

Also, what were Creans class rankings post-Amigos? And Buzz each year? Again, purely based on memory, but I don't remember either of those coaches having top 5+ classes year after year.

[bilsu]

Honestly, though, you could say the same for Buzz with potential four-year players (i.e. non JUCOs).
And that's not a knock on Buzz. It's just the nature of college basketball these days.

His first full recruiting class was Cadougan, Williams and Mbao. Two of three left early.
Next was Blue, Smith, Jones and Gardner. Three of four left early.
Next was Mayo, Anderson and Wilson. Mayo didn't last and Adnerson announced his transfer, only to return. So, one of threedidn't stay four years.
Next was Jamal Ferguson and Steve Taylor. Neither lasted four years at MU.
The next class shouldn't be counted, since they only had one year under Buzz. But if you are counting, only one of four played four years at MU.

So, among Buzz's first four classes, only four of 12 lasted four years at MU (and five of 16 if you count his last class, which I'm not).
Again, not a knock on Buzz. Just the way it works.

Buzz succeeded by recruiting Juco stars. Without them he would of had little success. Wojo does not (may not be allowed to) recruit Juco players. It is much harder for him to replace the transfers out. Transfers out are a much bigger issue for Wojo. This forces him to look for grad transfers, which is a one year fix at best.

[Galway Eagle]

Honestly, though, you could say the same for Buzz with potential four-year players (i.e. non JUCOs).
And that's not a knock on Buzz. It's just the nature of college basketball these days.

His first full recruiting class was Cadougan, Williams and Mbao. Two of three left early.
Next was Blue, Smith, Jones and Gardner. Three of four left early.
Next was Mayo, Anderson and Wilson. Mayo didn't last and Adnerson announced his transfer, only to return. So, one of threedidn't stay four years.
Next was Jamal Ferguson and Steve Taylor. Neither lasted four years at MU.
The next class shouldn't be counted, since they only had one year under Buzz. But if you are counting, only one of four played four years at MU.

So, among Buzz's first four classes, only four of 12 lasted four years at MU (and five of 16 if you count his last class, which I'm not).
Again, not a knock on Buzz. Just the way it works.

You forgot jeronne Maymonn

[Pakuni]

You forgot jeronne Maymonn

D'oh.

[Pakuni]

Buzz succeeded by recruiting Juco stars. Without them he would of had little success. Wojo does not (may not be allowed to) recruit Juco players. It is much harder for him to replace the transfers out. Transfers out are a much bigger issue for Wojo. This forces him to look for grad transfers, which is a one year fix at best.

I'm not making any judgment about who's handled the transfer situation better. Just pointing out that kids not sticking around four years isn't a Wojo issue.

[Herman Cain]

Wojo gets solid marks in two areas: a)recruiting and b)embracing the tradition of MU basketball.

His recruiting approach is systematic and has shown consistency whether it be high school, transfer or grad transfer.  Embracing the tradition of Marquette is a very smart move, it is why he has gotten such a long leash, the school continuing to invest and I also believe it provides a foundation on the recruiting front.

The area that Wojo needs improvement on is his ability to be a top tier winning basketball coach at the high major level.  This is year 6. He has a roster that a top tier winning basketball coach at the high major level can win with. So now he needs to demonstrate he can do it.

If he can't produce, then our program becomes Creighton from a performance standpoint, yet we have greater assets to deploy than Creighton. If that is the case, I hope he leaves for good money to some program that needs him.  However, if he can produce,that would be great and keep rolling his contract over. If he shows he can perform, the quality of recruits  would improve, because he would have something better, proven performance,  to sell the recruits on. 

[Silent Verbal]

Goose said he wanted Dawson and Davis. Plus already having Osa/Lewis. Then said he wanted the expectation to be classes/talent higher than those.

So, while the amigos and some of Buzz's recruits were solid top 100, I don't believe either had multiple top 5 classes in a row.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Remember, goose didn't say "sustain that level" (the potential 2020 class of 4). He said he wanted higher after that.

Also, what were Creans class rankings post-Amigos? And Buzz each year? Again, purely based on memory, but I don't remember either of those coaches having top 5+ classes year after year.

I guess it comes down to different interpretations of Goose’s post.

I’ve heard it said that Crean never parlayed the Final Four run into future recruiting success.  That’s not really true, it just took him a couple years.  The best recruits in 2003 weren’t going to decommit from their chosen schools and come to Marquette.  It’s a long process.  But two years after the FF, the Amigos arrived.  And while neither of Crean’s classes after that were top 5, he landed Hayward the following year, and Mbakwe and Christopherson the year after that.  So basically, he had that landmark Amigos class, and added one or two studs a year after that with some filler for the other scholarships.  That’s how you build a successful program, and I think that’s what Goose was advocating for, though I could be wrong.

I think Garcia and Davis could be Wojo’s version of the Amigos.  And at this point, with how his teams have performed in the postseason, I think he needs it.

[jesmu84]

I guess it comes down to different interpretations of Goose’s post.

I’ve heard it said that Crean never parlayed the Final Four run into future recruiting success.  That’s not really true, it just took him a couple years.  The best recruits in 2003 weren’t going to decommit from their chosen schools and come to Marquette.  It’s a long process.  But two years after the FF, the Amigos arrived.  And while neither of Crean’s classes after that were top 5, he landed Hayward the following year, and Mbakwe and Christopherson the year after that.  So basically, he had that landmark Amigos class, and added one or two studs a year after that with some filler for the other scholarships.  That’s how you build a successful program, and I think that’s what Goose was advocating for, though I could be wrong.

I think Garcia and Davis could be Wojo’s version of the Amigos.  And at this point, with how his teams have performed in the postseason, I think he needs it.

Fair enough.

I took his posts at a more literal value. That the class rankings and individual recruit rankings were expected to go up from that potential 2020 class.

In that interpretation (mine), it would put ridiculous expectations on the program.

Yours is certainly not only more attainable, but likely more fair as well

[Dr. Blackheart]

Buzz succeeded by recruiting Juco stars. Without them he would of had little success. Wojo does not (may not be allowed to) recruit Juco players. It is much harder for him to replace the transfers out. Transfers out are a much bigger issue for Wojo. This forces him to look for grad transfers, which is a one year fix at best.

Wojo takes transfers instead of JUCOs. One or two (or in Gabe's case none) and done. Except to get two, you need to give three years.

[Golden Avalanche]

A lot of the concern comes from player retention.

Wojo by the end of this year will have seen 3 players play 4 years for him. He's lost the mass majority of every recruiting class he has had (regardless of the reasons)

We're not talking about players who lacked talent, mu has been losing very good talent year after year. That is a huge concern.

The bolded seems to suggest Wojo is a good coach if he can lose "very good talent" year after year and yet still be an NCAA/NCAA bubble team the last three seasons once he established his program. 

[Lennys Tap]

Honestly, though, you could say the same for Buzz with potential four-year players (i.e. non JUCOs).
And that's not a knock on Buzz. It's just the nature of college basketball these days.

His first full recruiting class was Cadougan, Williams and Mbao. Two of three left early.
Next was Blue, Smith, Jones and Gardner. Three of four left early.
Next was Mayo, Anderson and Wilson. Mayo didn't last and Adnerson announced his transfer, only to return. So, one of threedidn't stay four years.
Next was Jamal Ferguson and Steve Taylor. Neither lasted four years at MU.
The next class shouldn't be counted, since they only had one year under Buzz. But if you are counting, only one of four played four years at MU.

So, among Buzz's first four classes, only four of 12 lasted four years at MU (and five of 16 if you count his last class, which I'm not).
Again, not a knock on Buzz. Just the way it works.

By my count, 8 rostered players left MU before completing their eligibility in the 6 seasons Buzz was the coach: P Hazel, J Ferguson, J Jones, R Smith, E Williams, Y Mbao, J Maymon and V Blue. 1 (Hazel) left because he was caught stealing, 1 (Maymon) was kicked off because of his Dad's demands, 5 left due to lack of playing time and 1(Blue) left early to try to go pro. MU lost one valuable season of Blue and Maymon's potential. IOW, not much over 6 years. 14 players (J Dawson, T Mayo, S Cohen, D Burton, S Taylor jr., H Cheatham, H Ellenson, W Ellenson, T Carter, H Frolling, G Levin, Du Wilson, S Hauser and J Hauser) have left MU without completing their eligibility in Wojo's 5 years. 1 (Mayo) was kicked off the team, 1 (W Ellenson) was essentially cut and 2 (Dawson and Frolling left due to lack of playing time. That leaves a "lost" roster of H Ellenson, D Burton, G Levin, S Cohen, S Taylor jr, S Hauser, J Hauser, T Carter and Du Wilson - not an NCAA champ but a great deal more than was lost during the previous regime.

[MU82]

If Wojo can sign 4 straight top-10 recruiting classes and win a couple of national titles during that span, maybe it'll be OK with me if he stays. But still I'll hope that the Appalachian State job opens and he goes for it. Then we can get Shaka and might never lose another game.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You missed some during the Buzz regime Lenny:

Scott Christopherson
Liam McMorrow
TJ Taylor
Jameel McKay

I'd also re-categorize your categories of Wojo's departures:

1 (Mayo) was kicked off the team
1 (Wally) was essentially cut
1 (Henry) was a first round draft pick
2 (Deonte and Haanif) left because of family death/illness
7 left because of lack of playing time (Dawson, Froling, Levin, Cohen, Taylor Jr, Carter, and Duane)
Which leaves a "lost" roster of the Hauser Bros.

[Dr. Blackheart]

You missed some during the Buzz regime Lenny:

Scott Christopherson
Liam McMorrow
TJ Taylor
Jameel McKay

I'd also re-categorize your categories of Wojo's departures:

1 (Mayo) was kicked off the team
1 (Wally) was essentially cut
1 (Henry) was a first round draft pick
2 (Deonte and Haanif) left because of family death/illness
7 left because of lack of playing time (Dawson, Froling, Levin, Cohen, Taylor Jr, Carter, and Duane)
Which leaves a "lost" roster of the Hauser Bros.

 No Mbwake love? 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

No Mbwake love?

He left during Crean's last year no? Or am I misremembering?

[Cheeks]

By my count, 8 rostered players left MU before completing their eligibility in the 6 seasons Buzz was the coach: P Hazel, J Ferguson, J Jones, R Smith, E Williams, Y Mbao, J Maymon and V Blue. 1 (Hazel) left because he was caught stealing, 1 (Maymon) was kicked off because of his Dad's demands, 5 left due to lack of playing time and 1(Blue) left early to try to go pro. MU lost one valuable season of Blue and Maymon's potential. IOW, not much over 6 years. 14 players (J Dawson, T Mayo, S Cohen, D Burton, S Taylor jr., H Cheatham, H Ellenson, W Ellenson, T Carter, H Frolling, G Levin, Du Wilson, S Hauser and J Hauser) have left MU without completing their eligibility in Wojo's 5 years. 1 (Mayo) was kicked off the team, 1 (W Ellenson) was essentially cut and 2 (Dawson and Frolling left due to lack of playing time. That leaves a "lost" roster of H Ellenson, D Burton, G Levin, S Cohen, S Taylor jr, S Hauser, J Hauser, T Carter and Du Wilson - not an NCAA champ but a great deal more than was lost during the previous regime.

If you are counting Mayo against Wojo, why aren’t Scott Christopherson, McKay and a few others counted against Buzz?

[Goose]

Guys, I believe/hope that recruiting becomes easier with the more success you have. Not every year will you be bringing in 4-5 guys, some years maybe only one. My point is simple, have a big recruiting class this year and build off it.

MU82
You have become an angry man. Actually, sad to see.

[cheebs09]

He left during Crean's last year no? Or am I misremembering?

I believe he left right as school started in Buzz’s first year.

[Lennys Tap]

You missed some during the Buzz regime Lenny:

Scott Christopherson
Liam McMorrow
TJ Taylor
Jameel McKay

I'd also re-categorize your categories of Wojo's departures:

1 (Mayo) was kicked off the team
1 (Wally) was essentially cut
1 (Henry) was a first round draft pick
2 (Deonte and Haanif) left because of family death/illness
7 left because of lack of playing time (Dawson, Froling, Levin, Cohen, Taylor Jr, Carter, and Duane)
Which leaves a "lost" roster of the Hauser Bros.

Christopherson - yes, good catch. I don't know if Taylor ever even enrolled and McKay never played (neither were ever rostered players) - but yes. McMorrow was "cut" by our medical staff.

[MU82]

Guys, I believe/hope that recruiting becomes easier with the more success you have. Not every year will you be bringing in 4-5 guys, some years maybe only one. My point is simple, have a big recruiting class this year and build off it.

MU82
You have become an angry man. Actually, sad to see.

Two days ago, Goose, you said this:

If he lands Davis and Garcia, he has two more years in my book. To date, I think his tenure has graded out as a D, land this recruiting class I am all in for two more years.

So ... my silly, sarcastic post was "angry," but yours was what? Benevolent?

Saying the commenter is "angry" just because you don't like the comment is right out of the hoopaloop playbook, Goose. I expect better from you.

Sorry if that sounded angry.

[Its DJOver]

IMO comparing number of transfers between different regimes is silly just because of how much the transfer market has exploded in the last 5-10 years.  How many consecutive years has the total number of transfers record been re-written?

[tower912]

Precisely.   Last stat I saw said that 40% of basketball players transfer.  It may be higher now, as I don't know that considered grad transfers.   More every year.  Never stop recruiting.