Wojo's Threshold

[bilsu]

Wojo has had success in recruiting, but his inability to build a team that is balanced and good on the defensive end has limited his success. To me team building is the problem. Transfers hurt team building.

[dgies9156]

You came off like having a drunken unhinged rant. I'm just saying the Elite 8 team had nobody that I'd call an all time great whereas guys like those four (including the person who is currently the all time scorer) had no runs during a time that was considered to be extremely successful for MU.

As far as my expectations or what I'm ok with you can chill the hell out I was at MU for the second greatest stretch in program history and want that back very bad but that doesn't mean expecting a championship every year because even Al only got us to that game twice. In a year like this I'm fine with making it.

Let me put it another way in hopes you understand what I mean.

You are measured by results. Period. A company with great technology, a great product or great service may have greatness, but if net income and earnings per share do not meet expectations, well, then there would be heck to pay. Companies and analysts set goals and are measured based on adherence to performance expectations.

Same here. The "drunken rant" as you call it, is a discussion of the measuring stick used to assess Marquette success. If you are my age, you tend to have very high expectations predicated on the experience of us winning a national title. Of us defeating the defending Olympic Champion basketball team. Of getting to the NCAA Championship and to regional finals. You almost had to experience that to believe it. Your age wants another Final Four run and the generation between us, who endured Hank, Rick and Bob, is happy with being in the NCAA period.

One other point to keep in mind: Why bother with basketball? I get that it is profitable. But it's more profitable when we are among the best teams in the country. More importantly, outstanding basketball gives our university a marketplace presence that it probably would not otherwise have. How many students in the 1970s looked at Marquette because they were introduced to it by a basketball game -- or hype about the basketball program? I'm betting a lot.

Not many went to Marquette because the basketball program was great. But it caused people to look at Marquette. Also, I have to believe there was millions of "McGuire Money" that came because we were very good and very visible nationally. When we fall out of national visibility, I'll betcha a beer at the next Scoop Beer Summit contributions fall, perhaps dramatically.

I respectfully think "We Are Marquette" should mean something -- basketball teams should be afraid of us again!

[Galway Eagle]

Let me put it another way in hopes you understand what I mean.

You are measured by results. Period. A company with great technology, a great product or great service may have greatness, but if net income and earnings per share do not meet expectations, well, then there would be heck to pay. Companies and analysts set goals and are measured based on adherence to performance expectations.

Same here. The "drunken rant" as you call it, is a discussion of the measuring stick used to assess Marquette success. If you are my age, you tend to have very high expectations predicated on the experience of us winning a national title. Of us defeating the defending Olympic Champion basketball team. Of getting to the NCAA Championship and to regional finals. You almost had to experience that to believe it. Your age wants another Final Four run and the generation between us, who endured Hank, Rick and Bob, is happy with being in the NCAA period.

One other point to keep in mind: Why bother with basketball? I get that it is profitable. But it's more profitable when we are among the best teams in the country. More importantly, outstanding basketball gives our university a marketplace presence that it probably would not otherwise have. How many students in the 1970s looked at Marquette because they were introduced to it by a basketball game -- or hype about the basketball program? I'm betting a lot.

Not many went to Marquette because the basketball program was great. But it caused people to look at Marquette. Also, I have to believe there was millions of "McGuire Money" that came because we were very good and very visible nationally. When we fall out of national visibility, I'll betcha a beer at the next Scoop Beer Summit contributions fall, perhaps dramatically.

I respectfully think "We Are Marquette" should mean something -- basketball teams should be afraid of us again!

This post is a discussion, your other post was a weird rant after the first two paragraphs. 

Reread the train of events: You said it'd be a bummer if we had one of the best players in the country and if we didn't go anywhere it'd be a bummer.

I brought up that we had a five year span with some of the best all time players and went nowhere.

You respond by questioning my program expectations and with a weird "I hope youre pleased" insinuation that I do have low expectations. Then launch into a rant that covers Mascot issue, PC culture, knocks my fandom down for not being at MU in the 70s, and manage a "back in my days" rant all in one paragraph. 

Seems like a drunken unhinged rant to me moreso than a discussion. But at least in this most recent post you understand that my age group expects to get to the final four and that I won't be A-ok if Howard's career ends with three early losses.

As far as a beer bet, I don't believe we will fall from national relevance so no need. As far as why we have basketball it's because it enhances school spirit which is vital for a school like MU to have to create a strong alumni connection which they sell to students as a value for attending MU.

I like your business analogy and as an analyst I'd argue that expectations are Dynamic not Static. In the same sense that it's ridiculous to expect Q1 to have the same metrics as Q4 it is ridiculous to hold the same expectations year in and year out without figuring experience, talent, injuries, matchups, etc.

[willie warrior]

Depends what on the Wojo bandwagon means. To get me to think he's a great coach? Probably a top 3 seed and second weekend appearance. To get me to want him fired? Probably missing the NIT

making the NIT and you still slurp him? That is extreme loyalty, and also settling for more mediocrity.

[Uncle Rico]

making the NIT and you still slurp him? That is extreme loyalty, and also settling for more mediocrity.

Who do you slurp?

[Its DJOver]

I try to look at a season in its entirety and not judge based on a system where one bad performance will send you home.  That being said, if you get 4 years of Markus and can't turn that into even a single NCAA tournament win, that's a major red flag.  The only way that one and done wouldn't be enough to convince me it's time for him to go is if he brings in 2 of AJ, RJ, Dawson, and Suggs.  Our class right now is good but not program changing, however that would/could be a lot of potentially incoming talent that would likely be gone.

[Herman Cain]

I try to look at a season in its entirety and not judge based on a system where one bad performance will send you home.  That being said, if you get 4 years of Markus and can't turn that into even a single NCAA tournament win, that's a major red flag.  The only way that one and done wouldn't be enough to convince me it's time for him to go is if he brings in 2 of AJ, RJ, Dawson, and Suggs.  Our class right now is good but not program changing, however that would/could be a lot of potentially incoming talent that would likely be gone.

I agree with this analysis.

[bilsu]

I try to look at a season in its entirety and not judge based on a system where one bad performance will send you home.   The only way that one and done wouldn't be enough to convince me it's time for him to go is if he brings in 2 of AJ, RJ, That being said, if you get 4 years of Markus and can't turn that into even a single NCAA tournament win, that's a major red flag. Dawson, and Suggs.  Our class right now is good but not program changing, however that would/could be a lot of potentially incoming talent that would likely be gone.

Maybe that says more about Markus than Wojo. I always thought Markus and Jerrel McNeal were me type players. That is part of the reason they are two all-time leading scorers.

[Silent Verbal]

Maybe that says more about Markus than Wojo. I always thought Markus and Jerrel McNeal were me type players. That is part of the reason they are two all-time leading scorers.

How dare you say such a thing about Saint God?

[Dr. Blackheart]

We are the point with the number of responses to get to the pulse rate of the (mostly) silent Scoop majority. First, let's exclude the Guru-ites and the Cheeklets who no matter what, think Wojo can do either no right or no wrong.

Of the remainder and repercentaged to exclude the outliers:

>> 61.4% expect a one NCAA win and/or the second weekend
>> 38.6% are fine with just making the NIT or the NCAA and crapshooting out.

The team has stated their goal is to advance...so they are in line with the Scoop majority expectations in Year 6. I think this is the deepest and most balanced MU team in years myself and to not advance, with past finishes in mind, is a major blemish (barring injuries).

It might not be the most talented as of today...that is to be seen but this is an experienced and athletic group. Expectations should be high. Most here agree. It seems odd to me that a third don't, honestly. I am with the team on this one.

[brewcity77]

This post is a discussion, your other post was a weird rant after the first two paragraphs.

I imagine you perched on the top rope like Randy Savage as you cue this one up. Or Jeff Hardy, if that's more age appropriate 😜

[warriorfred]

Full and fair disclosure, I have not recovered from Hausershima.

I consider the 2019/2020 Warriors roughly analogous to the 2015 Packers.  Mike McCarthy had shown he wasn't a viable head coach after the NFC Championship loss to Seattle.  The 2015 Packers were a playoff team with Rogers playing hero ball and a few aging players from the 2010 Championship, but they were not going to make the Super Bowl.  There were a few other players on that team that had kind of, sort of, developed (Ted Thompson deserves some blame for wasted draft picks).  It was clear McCarthy would never get them back to the big game.  In the end, the Packers squandered another 3 seasons with Rogers in his prime.

Do Bailey and John make great strides?  Do the freshmen step-up and play like all stars, maybe?  Probably not. 

But even if all that happens, this is not a go deep in the Tourney team.  So the 2019/2020 Warriors may make the Tourney, and a healthy Howard playing hero ball may notch a win.  And after Howard graduates, a slow slide to the NIT?

I sincerely hope I am wrong.  As I said, I have not recovered from Hausershima.

[MU82]

Wojo's Threshold? It's what he carried Mrs. Wojo over on their wedding night. Duh.

[WhiteTrash]

Maybe that says more about Markus than Wojo. I always thought Markus and Jerrel McNeal were me type players. That is part of the reason they are two all-time leading scorers.

Comments like this are utterly confusing to me. I don't understand how someone can be a fan of college basketball and not know that the head coach is responsible for the players on the team. MU does not have a GM selecting players for Wojo or forcing Wojo to play a certain player because he has a big contract.

If you don't care for Markus, fair enough, but what do you think of the dope playing him to the detriment of the team? 

[Dr. Blackheart]

Wojo's Threshold? It's what he carried Mrs. Wojo over on their wedding night. Duh.

Come on 82, you are married to a nurse too.  Like you, it's the other way around. 

[Cheeks]

We are the point with the number of responses to get to the pulse rate of the (mostly) silent Scoop majority. First, let's exclude the Guru-ites and the Cheeklets who no matter what, think Wojo can do either no right or no wrong.

Of the remainder and repercentaged to exclude the outliers:

>> 61.4% expect a one NCAA win and/or the second weekend
>> 38.6% are fine with just making the NIT or the NCAA and crapshooting out.

The team has stated their goal is to advance...so they are in line with the Scoop majority expectations in Year 6. I think this is the deepest and most balanced MU team in years myself and to not advance, with past finishes in mind, is a major blemish (barring injuries).

It might not be the most talented as of today...that is to be seen but this is an experienced and athletic group. Expectations should be high. Most here agree. It seems odd to me that a third don't, honestly. I am with the team on this one.

LOL

He can do plenty wrong and has...but I like the trajectory.  I voted NCAA appearance.  Advancement depends on who, where, etc.  Matchups matter.  NIT, barring injuries, would be a problem. 

That’s an interesting two choices you summarized.  I would have said only 2.6% are ok with the NIT, while over 90% are expecting at minimum a NCAA bid.  Both of us are right based on the results of the poll.

[MU82]

Come on 82, you are married to a nurse too.  Like you, it's the other way around.

Well, she has carried me in many ways, Doc, but not that one!

[Dr. Blackheart]

LOL

He can do plenty wrong and has...but I like the trajectory.  I voted NCAA appearance.  Advancement depends on who, where, etc.  Matchups matter.  NIT, barring injuries, would be a problem. 

That’s an interesting two choices you summarized.  I would have said only 2.6% are ok with the NIT, while over 90% are expecting at minimum a NCAA bid.  Both of us are right based on the results of the poll.

I picked those because those are some of of the biggest knocks on Wojo (by 60% of the Sane Scoopers). Bubbles and "in or outs", aka, living on the margins, are good in transition periods, but it's Year 6.

Also, when do "bad luck crapshoots" start to become a trend?  That's the issue for the 60%. As I said, I am with the Dream Big team, not the Underachievers--and so is Wojo. The train is leaving, Cheeks, time to get aboard. In or out, and not on the fence making excuses for the boy.

[Cheeks]

I picked those because those are some of of the biggest knocks on Wojo (by 60% of the Sane Scoopers). Bubbles and "in or outs", aka, living on the margins, are good in transition periods, but it's Year 6.

Also, when do "bad luck crapshoots" start to become a trend?  That's the issue for the 60%. As I said, I am with the Dream Big team, not the Underachievers--and so is Wojo. The train is leaving, Cheeks, time to get aboard. In or out, and not on the fence making excuses for the boy.

I believe in the crapshoot, along with Jay, Mike, Roy, Mark, Tom, and so many other coaches.  So no, I will go with getting into the dance, and then see what happens. 


Doc, what if we got in as a 8 seed and a 16 knocked off the 1 in our bracket.  We make the Sweet 16 as a result...does that convince you, or is it the luck of the draw?  Way too much randomness in the tournament on who you play, where, etc...situations where some teams are given a gift, other situations where you play a double digit that goes all the way to the Final Four. 

Get us in the tournament, and then we see what happens.

[bilsu]

Comments like this are utterly confusing to me. I don't understand how someone can be a fan of college basketball and not know that the head coach is responsible for the players on the team. MU does not have a GM selecting players for Wojo or forcing Wojo to play a certain player because he has a big contract.

If you don't care for Markus, fair enough, but what do you think of the dope playing him to the detriment of the team?

I like Markus. He is an amazing offensive player that has worked hard to improve his game. However, two years ago Rowsey was my favorite player. Almost every time he gave Markus the ball he never saw it again. Last year Sam was my favorite player. I like players that play team ball. James even if he was ahead on a fast break would drop the ball back to McNeal. McNeal would force up a fast break basket instead of passing it off to any body else. We had a good chance to beat Stanford, but instead of passing the ball ahead to Hayward McNeal drove in to force the last shot and missed. I believe this was at the end of regulation. McNeal had an absolutely great game up to that point, but he play selfishly on that last play. I can appreciate good players like McNeal and Markus, but I also see how they can hurt the team.

Imagine what you guys would of thought, if Wojo sat Markus or the Hausers the last 7 games. The only thing Wojo could of done was bench one side or the other and we would of been even worse. Blame whichever side you want, but once the battle started between the Hausers and Markus the team was finished. Markus stayed so he is my guy. The Hausers left so I am no longer a fan of them. Both sides are to blame. A coach cannot make players play together. The key really is to have so much talent that you can bench a player that is hurting the team. Wojo did start playing Bailey more, but that did not end the battle between Markus and Sam.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I believe in the crapshoot, along with Jay, Mike, Roy, Mark, Tom, and so many other coaches.  So no, I will go with getting into the dance, and then see what happens. 


Doc, what if we got in as a 8 seed and a 16 knocked off the 1 in our bracket.  We make the Sweet 16 as a result...does that convince you, or is it the luck of the draw?  Way too much ,icky in the tournament on who you play, where, etc...situations where some teams are given a gift, other situations where you play a double digit that goes all the way to the Final Four. 

Get us in the tournament, and then we see what happens.

You see, this was the problem with Crean too at both MU and IU at the end of his bitter rope:  The Peter Principle. CTC kept coming back after 2003 for more cash after quick outs (or NIT). Why would a pre-season expectation, with a seasoned, well-balanced team, be a “crapshoot”?  It’s excuse-making before one is needed. In case you didn’t know, the volume of your “crapshoot” opus on here is actually turning people off on Wojo, although he wants more in actuality.

Listen, this is a damn good team...maybe not as skilled in the starting five offensively as a year ago, but the 2nd time through the BIG or the BET, look out. Ja would not have had his crapshoot game if Jayce, Theo and Ed, with the forward wingspan squad, were there, though.  Crapshoot games are won by defense in the paint, when the shots aren’t falling. I think the balance of this team top to bottom, with an AA in the mix, is VERY underrated in terms of match-ups...especially in the back half. Much better than any MU team since 2003 even.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Well, she has carried me in many ways, Doc, but not that one!

Uh...huh. 

[Cheeks]

You see, this was the problem with Crean too at both MU and IU at the end of his bitter rope:  The Peter Principle. CTC kept coming back after 2003 for more cash after quick outs (or NIT). Why would a pre-season expectation, with a seasoned, well-balanced team, be a “crapshoot”?  It’s excuse-making before one is needed. In. In case you didn’t know, the volume of your “crapshoot” opus on here, is actually turning people off on Wojo, although he wants more in actuality.

Listen, this is a damn good team...maybe not as skilled in the starting five offensively as a year ago, but the 2nd time through the BIG or the BET, look out. Ja would not have had his crapshoot game if Jayce, Theo and Ed, with the forward wingspan squad,, were there, though.  Crapshoot games are won by defense in the paint, when the shots aren’t falling. I think the balance of this team top to bottom, with an AA in the mix, is VERY underrated in terms of match-ups...especially in the back half. Much better than any MU team since 2003 even.

I like this team, but all teams have weaknesses and teams that are bad matchups for them.   You can have a scenario where you would beat 50 of the 68 teams in the field, but there are some where the style of play is a major issue.  Should UNLV ever have lost to Duke in the tournament?  Duke to Mercer?  UVA to UMBC?  Nope.  But it happens.  Style of play, off shooting night, what ever.  The idea of saying 6 months out without knowing who, when, where we would play just seems silly to me.  If we have to play a school that is only 90 minutes from the site...it matters...as an example.

[Small Orange Soda]

I think context has value when considering NCAA wins.  And upsets obviously do happen, it's what makes the tournament exciting.  But it's time to have a team that enters the NCAA with a chance to make a run.  Historically, your odds of making a run as a 10 seed aren't great.  And entering the tournament following a late season collapse with a broken locker room gets us what we saw against Murray State.

So that's what I want.  If this team is a top 3 seed and loses to a Mercer or UMBC type then yeah, we'll all b*tch and moan about it.  But if a disappointing game with a meh seed in the tourney is reflective of the season, then we've got a real problem.  It's Year 6.  Time to make some noise.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

There are definitely crazy things that happen in the NCAA tourney and the significance of them are best judged after they occur.  To pre-dismiss results or lack of results doesn’t make sense to me. 

Said a different way a couple college coach’s legacy is built in March.  You must win eventually (let alone make some runs) to have a chance at a positive legacy.