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Author Topic: Joey applied for waiver  (Read 35243 times)

Cheeks

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #125 on: September 28, 2019, 09:53:37 PM »
Historical records say your preference is incorrect (if advancing to round 2, 3 or beyond the goal).

How so?

A 5 seed has NEVER won the entire tournament.  A 6 seed has.  A 6 seed historically has made the Elite 8 almost 2x better than a 5 seed.  You are correct for the second and third rounds, but “beyond the goal”.

"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Lennys Tap

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #126 on: September 28, 2019, 10:06:13 PM »
How so?

A 5 seed has NEVER won the entire tournament.  A 6 seed has.  A 6 seed historically has made the Elite 8 almost 2x better than a 5 seed.  You are correct for the second and third rounds, but “beyond the goal”.

6th seed?? You said you'd rather be a 7 seed than a 5. You never mentioned 6.


Retire0

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #127 on: September 28, 2019, 10:08:12 PM »
6th seed?? You said you'd rather be a 7 seed than a 5. You never mentioned 6.



Yeah, but averages to his answer. So he’s right, duh.
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Cheeks

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #128 on: September 28, 2019, 10:38:26 PM »
6th seed?? You said you'd rather be a 7 seed than a 5. You never mentioned 6.

LOL. You are correct.  My bad for pulling up 6 seed data, but 7 seed still proves to be true.  7 seeds have better winning % historically to get to the Elite 8 then 5 seeds.  A 7 seed has won the ncaa tournament, a 5 seed hasn’t.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 11:34:42 PM by Cheeks »
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #129 on: September 28, 2019, 10:40:46 PM »
Yeah, but averages to his answer. So he’s right, duh.

I am right, both 6 seeds and 7 seeds have gone further than 5 seeds, and that was his argument. 


A 5 has never won it.  A 6 and a 7 has.  6/7 have a better winning percentage in the championship, in the Final Four, and the Sweet 16.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Lennys Tap

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #130 on: September 28, 2019, 11:26:43 PM »
I am right, both 6 seeds and 7 seeds have gone further than 5 seeds, and that was his argument. 


A 5 has never won it.  A 6 and a 7 has.  6/7 have a better winning percentage in the championship, in the Final Four, and the Sweet 16.

You're misstating my argument. Your argument was that you would rather be a 7 seed than a 5 seed in the tournament. I asked why you would prefer a seed the has fared statistically worse. And by any fair measure 7s have fared worse. 5 seeds have 5 more trips to the 2nd round, 19 more trips to the S16, 3 more trips to the FF and 3 more trips to the championship game than the 7 seeds. 5 seeds have won 26 more tournament games. 7 seeds have 2 more Elite 8s and 1 more championship.

5 seed vs 7 seed wins in the NCAA tournament:

Round 1: 5s 89   7s 84
Round 2: 5s 46   7s 27
Round 3: 5s  8    7s 10
Round 4: 5s  6    7s  3
Round 5: 5s  3    7s  1
Round 6: 5s  0    7s  1

Total NCAA wins: 5s 152  7s 126
Sweet 16s:          5s  46   7s  27
Elite 8s:              5s   8   7s  10
Final 4s:              5s   6   7s    3
Final Game:         5s   3   7s    1
Championships:    5s   0   7s    1

If you honestly think these numbers indicate it's an advantage to being a 7 seed over a 5 seed (your original premise)....well, they just don't and you're easily smart enough to know it.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 11:32:25 PM by Lennys Tap »

Cheeks

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #131 on: September 28, 2019, 11:37:33 PM »
You're misstating my argument. Your argument was that you would rather be a 7 seed than a 5 seed in the tournament. I asked why you would prefer a seed the has fared statistically worse. And by any fair measure 7s have fared worse. 5 seeds have 5 more trips to the 2nd round, 19 more trips to the S16, 3 more trips to the FF and 3 more trips to the championship game than the 7 seeds. 5 seeds have won 26 more tournament games. 7 seeds have 2 more Elite 8s and 1 more championship.

5 seed vs 7 seed wins in the NCAA tournament:

Round 1: 5s 89   7s 84
Round 2: 5s 46   7s 27
Round 3: 5s  8    7s 10
Round 4: 5s  6    7s  3
Round 5: 5s  3    7s  1
Round 6: 5s  0    7s  1

Total NCAA wins: 5s 152  7s 126
Sweet 16s:          5s  46   7s  27
Elite 8s:              5s   8   7s  10
Final 4s:              5s   6   7s    3
Final Game:         5s   3   7s    1
Championships:    5s   0   7s    1

If you honestly think these numbers indicate it's an advantage to being a 7 seed over a 5 seed (your original premise)....well, they just don't and you're easily smart enough to know it.

If that was your intent, ok.  I read “Historical records say your preference is incorrect (if advancing to round 2, 3 or beyond the goal).” to mean advancing 2nd 3rd round and beyond.  The truth is, no 5 seed has ever gone to the beyond portion, while a 6 and 7 seed both have.

Peace

"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Mr. Sand-Knit

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #132 on: September 29, 2019, 09:54:41 AM »
So chicos says it a crapshoot 1000x and then starts using empirical and historical evidence to predict results?

What an idiot!
Political free board, plz leave your clever quips in your clever mind.

Jay Bee

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #133 on: September 29, 2019, 11:05:36 AM »
So chicos says it a crapshoot 1000x and then starts using empirical and historical evidence to predict results?

lol, this is a fair point

Cheeks

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #134 on: September 29, 2019, 11:35:58 AM »
lol, this is a fair point

Not really.  Both are consistent.  It is still a crapshoot.  A crapshoot isn’t a zero sum game.  I’d rather be a 1 seed than 16 seed, but even a 16 seed can lose.  I would rather be a 3 seed than a 7 seed, but history has shown plenty of 3 seeds that lost when they “should not” have.

People wrongly assert a crapshoot is a totally unpredictable outcome, that is absolutely not the case.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Lennys Tap

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #135 on: September 29, 2019, 12:48:04 PM »
If that was your intent, ok.  I read “Historical records say your preference is incorrect (if advancing to round 2, 3 or beyond the goal).” to mean advancing 2nd 3rd round and beyond.  The truth is, no 5 seed has ever gone to the beyond portion, while a 6 and 7 seed both have.

Peace

5 seeds have made the round of 32 5 more times than 7s. 5 seeds have made the Sweet 16 an astounding 19 more times than 7s. 7s have made the Elite 8 2 times more than 5s, 5s have made the FF 3 times more than 7s and the championship game 2 times more. 7s do have one championship to none for 5s. 7th seeded UCONN beat 8th seeded UK in 2014. 5 seeds have a winning percentage of .528, 7 have a winning percentage of .482. 5s have won 26 more games total.

Respectfully, if you put this information into any blender - even one designed and manufactured by Chico, inc. - it adds up that being a 5 is an advantage to being a 7. Not the other way around as you've opined. Why not just admit the obvious?

Peace.

lawdog77

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #136 on: September 29, 2019, 12:53:30 PM »
Not really.  Both are consistent.  It is still a crapshoot.  A crapshoot isn’t a zero sum game.  I’d rather be a 1 seed than 16 seed, but even a 16 seed can lose.  I would rather be a 3 seed than a 7 seed, but history has shown plenty of 3 seeds that lost when they “should not” have.

People wrongly assert a crapshoot is a totally unpredictable outcome, that is absolutely not the case.
see webster..a crapshoot by definition is something that has an unpredictable outcome,Not a somewhat unpredictable outcome.  Or you could have said that I would rather be a 7, because it wouldnt feel as bad when we lost, I coild get behind that. Otherwise, your opinion is craaaazy.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 01:11:04 PM by lawdog77 »

Lazar's Headband

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #137 on: September 29, 2019, 01:33:28 PM »
Not really.  Both are consistent.  It is still a crapshoot.  A crapshoot isn’t a zero sum game. I ’d rather be a 1 seed than 16 seed, but even a 16 seed can lose.  I would rather be a 3 seed than a 7 seed, but history has shown plenty of 3 seeds that lost when they “should not” have.

People wrongly assert a crapshoot is a totally unpredictable outcome, that is absolutely not the case.

 ?-(

WarriorDad

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #138 on: September 29, 2019, 02:26:29 PM »
Can we move the Hauser stuff to the other board?  They are not here any longer.
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forgetful

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #139 on: September 29, 2019, 02:27:25 PM »
Can we move the Hauser stuff to the other board?  They are not here any longer.

Wait, this thread is about the Hauser's? I thought it was about seeding in the NCAA tournament.

Jay Bee

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #140 on: September 29, 2019, 02:34:37 PM »
Not really.  Both are consistent.  It is still a crapshoot.  A crapshoot isn’t a zero sum game.  I’d rather be a 1 seed than 16 seed, but even a 16 seed can lose.  I would rather be a 3 seed than a 7 seed, but history has shown plenty of 3 seeds that lost when they “should not” have.

People wrongly assert a crapshoot is a totally unpredictable outcome, that is absolutely not the case.

What is your definition of “crapshoot”? Not “an unpredictable outcome”?

Cheeks

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #141 on: September 29, 2019, 03:47:53 PM »
5 seeds have made the round of 32 5 more times than 7s. 5 seeds have made the Sweet 16 an astounding 19 more times than 7s. 7s have made the Elite 8 2 times more than 5s, 5s have made the FF 3 times more than 7s and the championship game 2 times more. 7s do have one championship to none for 5s. 7th seeded UCONN beat 8th seeded UK in 2014. 5 seeds have a winning percentage of .528, 7 have a winning percentage of .482. 5s have won 26 more games total.

Respectfully, if you put this information into any blender - even one designed and manufactured by Chico, inc. - it adds up that being a 5 is an advantage to being a 7. Not the other way around as you've opined. Why not just admit the obvious?

Peace.

So for clarity, when you said beyond you didn’t really mean beyond....you meant it only to a certain point since a 7 has won it all and a 5 has not (love that you try to dismiss who they played....LOL).  Why not just admit the obvious?  “Beyond” was wrong...a 7 has gone further than a 5 has ever gone...won it all.

Peace

"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #142 on: September 29, 2019, 03:55:48 PM »
What is your definition of “crapshoot”? Not “an unpredictable outcome”?

I’ve answered this before.

Risky, not a sure thing.  A gamble. 

And when you factor in any loss at any time, it makes it even more so. This isn’t best of 7 or best of 5 or even best of 3.   The best team often doesn’t win the title, that’s what makes it a crapshoot.

Life is a crapshoot, nothing is 100% predictable.  Sun could explode today and not come up tomorrow...probably will, I’d bet the house on it but nothing is guaranteed.  Right now we all die, in the future maybe we don’t.  No one knows. 

In context of the tournament...a crapshoot is what I and other coaches have been saying over the years.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Jay Bee

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #143 on: September 29, 2019, 03:58:56 PM »
I’ve answered this before.

Risky, not a sure thing.  A gamble. 

Life is a crapshoot, nothing is 100% predictable.

Lol, ok. So most people say crapshoot = unpredictable

You say crapshoot = less than 100%

Pretty funny!

lawdog77

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #144 on: September 29, 2019, 04:10:53 PM »
So for clarity, when you said beyond you didn’t really mean beyond....you meant it only to a certain point since a 7 has won it all and a 5 has not (love that you try to dismiss who they played....LOL).  Why not just admit the obvious?  “Beyond” was wrong...a 7 has gone further than a 5 has ever gone...won it all.

Peace
only the uneducated, misinformed, or stubborn would want to be a 7 instead of a 5

MU82

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #145 on: September 29, 2019, 04:31:44 PM »
Merriam Webster Online: something (such as a business venture) that has an unpredictable outcome

Dictionary.com: anything unpredictable, risky, or problematical; gamble.


Collinsdictionary.com: If you describe something as a crapshoot, you mean that what happens depends entirely on luck or chance.

vocabulary.com: playing craps; or a risky and uncertain venture


Hoopaloop and his the coaches he chooses to quote: Whatever I want to claim it is.
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Lennys Tap

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #146 on: September 29, 2019, 04:38:05 PM »
So for clarity, when you said beyond you didn’t really mean beyond....you meant it only to a certain point since a 7 has won it all and a 5 has not (love that you try to dismiss who they played....LOL).  Why not just admit the obvious?  “Beyond” was wrong...a 7 has gone further than a 5 has ever gone...won it all.

Peace

OMG. This is yet another exhibit of why so many people find you so exasperating.

1.You say you would rather be a 7 seed than a 5 seed.

2.Someone provides you with facts that prove your preference is misguided.

3.You ignore the date (facts), move the goalposts, try to change the discussion and never address the fact that your original premise (better to be a 7 seed than a 5) was wrong.

I'm sure you know that an 8 seed has also won the tournament one (1) time in 34 years. so I guess it's better to be an 8 than a 5 too. LOL

I really wish you could be a man and admit that you got this one wrong. I like the idea of "Peace". But without a little humility and honesty its meaningless.

brewcity77

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #147 on: September 29, 2019, 04:55:31 PM »
only the uneducated, misinformed, or stubborn would want to be a 7 instead of a 5

The reason 7's fare better in Sweet 16 games is simply a function of who they are playing against. As CBB noted, there are 10 7-seeds to reach the Elite 8 and 8 5-seeds. However what he fails to note is who they had to beat in the Sweet 16 to get there. A 7-seed has already got past the toughest challenge to reach the Elite 8, that being the 2-seed. Of the 10 7-seeds to advance, 6 had to beat 3-seeds, 3 had to beat 6-seeds, and 1 had to beat a 14-seed.

Conversely, of the 8 5-seeds to reach the Elite 8, 7 of them had to beat a 1-seed to get there while 1 beat a 9-seed. So yes, if you want to get to the Elite 8, it's a little easier for a 7 because by the time they reach the Sweet 16 they are likely to face a much weaker opponent, but as you're almost twice as likely to get to the Sweet 16 from the 5-line and twice as likely to get to the Final Four from the 5-line.

Pointing out the Elite 8 odds are the cherriest of cherry picking.
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Cheeks

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #148 on: September 29, 2019, 05:16:59 PM »
OMG. This is yet another exhibit of why so many people find you so exasperating.

1.You say you would rather be a 7 seed than a 5 seed.

2.Someone provides you with facts that prove your preference is misguided.

3.You ignore the date (facts), move the goalposts, try to change the discussion and never address the fact that your original premise (better to be a 7 seed than a 5) was wrong.

I'm sure you know that an 8 seed has also won the tournament one (1) time in 34 years. so I guess it's better to be an 8 than a 5 too. LOL

I really wish you could be a man and admit that you got this one wrong. I like the idea of "Peace". But without a little humility and honesty its meaningless.

I said I would rather be a 7 then a 5.

You said, the 5 is better for advancing to the 2nd, 3rd, and beyond then the 7 seed.  That was a false statement that you keep saying is factual....and you are exasperated because I called you out on your non factual statement.  Sorry about that, but what you said was false.  It is true up to a point, but unless BEYOND only means to a certain point (which it doesn’t) it is false.  I’m sorry you chose to use the word BEYOND.  When you said it, I knew it was off and responded back because I knew a 5 had never won it all, but a 6 and 7 had....so I knew immediately the BEYOND part of your statement was wrong.  You can be exasperated all you wish.  It is like your Hauser comment pressuring the ball in the Georgetown game.

Now you are trying to move the goalposts to suggest you didn’t really mean all of it, but most of it.  Uhm, no.

And yet you want me to man up and admit something I didn’t say was wrong, when you did?  That’s rich.

YES or NO...has a 5 seed ever held the NCAA trophy from the men’s basketball tournament?  Yes or No, has a 6 and a 7 seed done so?  Therefore, to date at least, being a 6 or 7 seed has actually proven you can go to the BEYOND and win it all....a 5 seed has not.

Sorry you are exasperated....next time say it differently and don’t get all spun up,when people ask you questions about YOUR words.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Marcus92

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Re: Joey applied for waiver
« Reply #149 on: September 29, 2019, 05:35:13 PM »
A team's seed in the NCAA tournament reflects how they performed during the season up to that point. In the eyes of the committee, a team that earns a 5 seed is a better team than a 7 seed. I'd rather have the better team and the better seed. Always.
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