Oh, how the worm can turn.

[WhiteTrash]

Meanwhile, the current guy with less talent, less coaching acumen is obliterated for losing despite the talent and coaching gap.

This probably sums up the issues with Wojo best. Very harsh but accurate. Thank you.

[The Sultan]

Will happen when a decent paying power 5 job opens.

I don't know what "decent" program would be satisfied with Wojo AND be attractive to him.  Maybe Wake Forest if they dump Manning?  But it's not a very long list IMO.

[Cheeks]

This probably sums up the issues with Wojo best. Very harsh but accurate. Thank you.

Yup, he's young and didn't get to cut his teeth on a mid major like Wright, K, McGuire, etc.  He's getting better.....sorry you are not noticing it despite every unbiased data source proving that out.

Thank you

[WhiteTrash]

Yup, he's young and didn't get to cut his teeth on a mid major like Wright, K, McGuire, etc.  He's getting better.....sorry you are not noticing it despite every unbiased data source proving that out.

Thank you

Your words not mine.
I'll refrain from agreeing with you in the future.

ps - I never said anything about him getting better. 

[jonny09]

Yup, he's young and didn't get to cut his teeth on a mid major like Wright, K, McGuire, etc.  He's getting better.....sorry you are not noticing it despite every unbiased data source proving that out.

Thank you

Fake news.  Shocking that it's coming from a guy who knows nothing about sports.  Or where people can watch them

[Silent Verbal]

Yup, he's young and didn't get to cut his teeth on a mid major like Wright, K, McGuire, etc.  He's getting better.....sorry you are not noticing it despite every unbiased data source proving that out.

Thank you

He didn't "get" to cut his teeth at a mid major?  That was his choice.  It's been said (maybe even by Wojo himself, IIRC) that he could've had the Dayton job, and possibly others.  He chose to stay at Duke and Coach K's fiefdom until a big job like MU opened.  With a big job comes big expectations.  It was also MU's choice to hire a guy with no prior experience running his own program, who had only ever been around one program and that program's very specific way of doing things.  The fact that Wojo never coached at another school isn't an excuse.  At a place like Marquette, you're expected to hit the ground running, regardless of experience level.

Bottom line, the pressure will be on Wojo to win an NCAA tournament game this year.  That's how casual fans measure success.  Hell, it's how rabid fans ultimately measure success, too.  The optics of him being here six years with zero NCAA wins and facing another retooling period post-Markus will not be great. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Im sure there's "pressure" on Wojo to win an ncaa game. But whether or not he does has nothing to do with him getting fired.

[Silent Verbal]

Im sure there's "pressure" on Wojo to win an ncaa game. But whether or not he does has nothing to do with him getting fired.

Where did I say anything about him getting fired?  I remember Buzz said something about, "I'll be here as long as they'll have me."  Wojo?  He'll be here as long he'll have us.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Where did I say anything about him getting fired?  I remember Buzz said something about, "I'll be here as long as they'll have me."  Wojo?  He'll be here as long he'll have us.

Just adding to the conversation

[Small Orange Soda]

Im sure there's "pressure" on Wojo to win an ncaa game. But whether or not he does has nothing to do with him getting fired.

I'd be very surprised if Wojo were ever fired after making the tournament.  But he needs to have some March success before he misses his next tourney or that'll probably be it for him.

[Cheeks]

Your words not mine.
I'll refrain from agreeing with you in the future.

ps - I never said anything about him getting better.

My words, without context....with context, he continues to get better.  And for some reason we continue to have double standards here....it is ok for a HOF coach with a great team to lose in the first round because of what he did years earlier, but a coach still on the come with lesser talent it is inexcusable.

Did I miss anything?

Thank you

[Cheeks]

Fake news.  Shocking that it's coming from a guy who knows nothing about sports.  Or where people can watch them

Nothing fake about what I said....please point out what is....getting paid the last 25 years in the sports industry....someone thinks I know a thing or two.

[Cheeks]

He didn't "get" to cut his teeth at a mid major?  That was his choice.  It's been said (maybe even by Wojo himself, IIRC) that he could've had the Dayton job, and possibly others.  He chose to stay at Duke and Coach K's fiefdom until a big job like MU opened.  With a big job comes big expectations.  It was also MU's choice to hire a guy with no prior experience running his own program, who had only ever been around one program and that program's very specific way of doing things.  The fact that Wojo never coached at another school isn't an excuse.  At a place like Marquette, you're expected to hit the ground running, regardless of experience level.

Bottom line, the pressure will be on Wojo to win an NCAA tournament game this year.  That's how casual fans measure success.  Hell, it's how rabid fans ultimately measure success, too.  The optics of him being here six years with zero NCAA wins and facing another retooling period post-Markus will not be great.

Whether his choice or not, that is the reality of the situation.

You cannot simply pretend to inject experience as a head coach by snapping your fingers....the real world doesn't work like that.  And since we cannot get an existing high end D1 coach to come here, it is what we will continue to go through...on the job training.

I'm just glad he continues to get better. I'm sorry some of your don't realize this and put your entire fandom on one game a year...suit yourself.

[cheebs09]

My words, without context....with context, he continues to get better.  And for some reason we continue to have double standards here....it is ok for a HOF coach with a great team to lose in the first round because of what he did years earlier, but a coach still on the come with lesser talent it is inexcusable.

Did I miss anything?

Thank you

Because that's the high watermark so far. That's what worries people. We collapsed at the end of the year and were a no-show in the tournament. If he goes onto have the success of Wright or Coach K, no one is going to care about how we did against SC or Murray State. However, the worry is that he may not grow into more than a decent coach. His ceiling might be a bubble team with a decent year whenever we have a bunch of experience.

[Cheeks]

Because that's the high watermark so far. That's what worries people. We collapsed at the end of the year and were a no-show in the tournament. If he goes onto have the success of Wright or Coach K, no one is going to care about how we did against SC or Murray State. However, the worry is that he may not grow into more than a decent coach. His ceiling might be a bubble team with a decent year whenever we have a bunch of experience.

Correct, none of us can predict the future or how he will turn out. 

My bigger worry is people kick him to the curb and he goes on to do great things elsewhere because our patience is tied to one game a year and not the wholistic picture

[MU82]

Well, I suppose everyone would cut him some slack if we had won something in his five years.  To me in five years the list of Wojo's highlights is a win over number 1 Villanova at home and... I got nothing else.  We've made two NCAAs in his 5 years, nothing special even considering what we were when he arrived, and we were not competitive once we got there. No top 25 finishes for a six year stretch, 5 on his watch.  Since Al got here, the only other stretch where that happened was the Majerus/Dukiet dark days.  He has been building toward 2018-19 and 2019-20 since he got here.  The first of those two seasons began will lots of promise but ended in a total collapse.  Season 2 has begun with his second and third best players leaving the program so once again expectations are lowered.  For goodness sake, you have the optimistic people on the board hoping we can get an NCAA tournament win in year 6, with a probably step back for a year or two following that!  We are Marquette.  That is not good.  He's got to start winning more to win people over.  Not sure why that is hard for people to understand.

And stop using the occasional failures of great coaches to excuse him.  You darn well know you can't compare him to great coaches because guys with a great track record earn the benefit of the doubt when a season or game goes sideways.

I'm not even a Wojo hater.  I still hold out hope he can do something great here.  Just saying I get the frustration with him.

To me the best you can say about Wojo is that the jury is still out or there is still potential.

This is a very reasonable take, CTW. I especially like the last two paragraphs.

I am an optimist and generally have been bullish on Wojo, as much as or more than most Scoopers. However, I do think it is fair for a fan base to not be expected to be patient forever.

I have been one who has compared Wojo's relative success to that of K, Wright, etc, at similar stages of their careers. But the statute of limitations runs out on that line of reasoning, too. Are we there yet? Not sure, but we have to be getting close. In Year 5 at Duke, K was winning NCAA tourney games; in Year 6, he was 37-3 and in the title game. In Year 5 at Nova, Wright was in the Elite 8. As another Scooper said, it was Wojo's choice not to cut his teeth at smaller schools as K and Wright did and choosing to remain an assistant for 15 years; he doesn't get "credit" for that choice.

In Year 5 for Wojo, MU collapsed down the stretch and lost an NCAA game to a mid-major by 100 points. Wait ... make that 102 ... Murray State just scored again. Then, Hausershima happened; even most of those who distribute "blame" equally, or put somewhat more on the Hausers, have to admit it was a bad look.

It certainly was the capper on a very, very bad 6 weeks in modern-day Marquette basketball history.

I am in no way saying Wojo should be fired for that wretched 6 weeks, and I am heartened that Hausershima doesn't seem to have hurt recruiting, as I worried it might. Nevertheless, it is difficult for this optimist to be quite as bullish on Wojo.

It's not unreasonable to want to see more success, IMHO, and to see it sooner than later.

[Cheeks]

This is a very reasonable take, CTW. I especially like the last two paragraphs.

I am an optimist and generally have been bullish on Wojo, as much as or more than most Scoopers. However, I do think it is fair for a fan base to not be expected to be patient forever.

I have been one who has compared Wojo's relative success to that of K, Wright, etc, at similar stages of their careers. But the statute of limitations runs out on that line of reasoning, too. Are we there yet? Not sure, but we have to be getting close. In Year 5 at Duke, K was winning NCAA tourney games; in Year 6, he was 37-3 and in the title game. In Year 5 at Nova, Wright was in the Elite 8. As another Scooper said, it was Wojo's choice not to cut his teeth at smaller schools as K and Wright did and choosing to remain an assistant for 15 years; he doesn't get "credit" for that choice.

In Year 5 for Wojo, MU collapsed down the stretch and lost an NCAA game to a mid-major by 100 points. Wait ... make that 102 ... Murray State just scored again. Then, Hausershima happened; even most of those who distribute "blame" equally, or put somewhat more on the Hausers, have to admit it was a bad look.

It certainly was the capper on a very, very bad 6 weeks in modern-day Marquette basketball history.

I am in no way saying Wojo should be fired for that wretched 6 weeks, and I am heartened that Hausershima doesn't seem to have hurt recruiting, as I worried it might. Nevertheless, it is difficult for this optimist to be quite as bullish on Wojo.

It's not unreasonable to want to see more success, IMHO, and to see it sooner than later.

6 weeks?  It was three weeks. The losing streak started Feb 27th and ended March 21st, with a win in there again St John's and a malpractice officiating event against Seton Hall.  Or are you including the decision to transfer?

My guess and opinion shared by some (not all) close to this....even if we had won a few games in the tournament, Joey was gone.  Sam, who knows.

[WhiteTrash]

Correct, none of us can predict the future or how he will turn out. 

My bigger worry is people kick him to the curb and he goes on to do great things elsewhere because our patience is tied to one game a year and not the wholistic picture

The uphill battle you are fighting for Wojo is a result of fans' "wholistic picture" of his time at MU.

Look, you see wonderful progress during his tenure. A lot see a sub-par performance for MU's standards. The administration sees satisfactory progress hence he was given a modest extension (that I agreed with).

I think it is equally disingenuous to ignore the failures, and the successes he has had.

 

[Lennys Tap]

My apologies, we were down 1 point and not tied with 10 minutes to go.  Sorry I was off by 1 point.  I noticed you also didn't bother to mention they went to the Final Four.  So Wojo was toe to toe the first 30 minutes...and then he forgot to coach the last 10?  GMAFB. 

It was a two possession game with under 7 minutes to play.

We ran out of gas, couldn't hit shots, they were a fantastic defensive team that grinded us down as they did their next three opponents. I was fortunate enough to be at the Final Four that year...that team just missed playing for the title.

I noticed you refused to answer my question when I gave you the courtesy of answering yours.

You remember a different game than the one played. We were down 5 with 10 minutes to play. Cut it to 3 with 9:29 left, back to 5 with 9:10 left and we never got closer. Down 11 with 5:30 left and the rout was on. The game was a pick em. We lost by 20. How that translates into a solidly better than average performance (7 out of 10) defies reality. You know that.

Sorry I didn't answer your ? - what was it?

[MU82]

6 weeks?  It was three weeks. The losing streak started Feb 27th and ended March 21st, with a win in there again St John's and a malpractice officiating event against Seton Hall.  Or are you including the decision to transfer?

My guess and opinion shared by some (not all) close to this....even if we had won a few games in the tournament, Joey was gone.  Sam, who knows.

Normally, I'd ignore the troll, but I do want to make sure the record is straight as the guy who argues just for the sake of arguing tries to "catch" me on something.

Yes, I was including the transfer, and I thought I had made it clear in my post, where my 6 weeks reference clearly was after my Hausershima reference.

2/27 Nova loss
3/3 Crei loss
3/6 SH loss
3/9 GT loss
3/14 StJ win
3/15 SH loss
3/21 MurrSt utter humiliation
4/15 Hausershima

It actually was a miserable 6 weeks, 5 days -- featuring 6 losses in 7 games, including an embarrassing annihilation in the NCAA tournament and then the transfer of one very good and one potentially very good player.

Again, IMHO, the worst stretch for MU hoops in many a year -- especially given all the program had going for it on 2/27 at 9 p.m.

[Cheeks]

MU82, that wasn't hard was it?  And no, you don't ignore me....I occupy a space in your brain...you may choose not to respond, but you don't ignore....it is not in your nature.

[Cheeks]

You remember a different game than the one played. We were down 5 with 10 minutes to play. Cut it to 3 with 9:29 left, back to 5 with 9:10 left and we never got closer. Down 11 with 5:30 left and the rout was on. The game was a pick em. We lost by 20. How that translates into a solidly better than average performance (7 out of 10) defies reality. You know that.

Sorry I didn't answer your ? - what was it?

I don't think I remember a different game.

At halftime we were leading 40 to 39.  I would call that in the game.
We trailed by 1 point until 10:43 remaining when we went down 3.
With 7:15 left it was a two possession game, down by 5 points.
It remained a two possession deficit under 7 minutes.

As I stated, from there the wheels came off.  Tired, not shooting well, etc.  We made no baskets for the next five plus minutes....Markus, Katlin, Luke, Andrew, Jajuan, etc, all missed.  Throw in turnovers by Duane, Andrew, Markus, Luke, and a parade of fouls....and it is over...we were very much in that game until the 6 minute and change mark, when we then proceeded to miss almost all of our shots, turn the ball over, foul like crazy....the first 34 minutes that wasn't the case...perhaps that is when Wojo wasn't coaching.

South Carolina finished 6th in the final poll.  Beating Marquette, Duke, Baylor, Florida, and just missing out on Gonzaga.  They got hot at the right time, stars aligned properly for them. 

My question....i think you can go back and look....but had to do with examples of the performances of coaches like K, etc that lost to Lehigh, Mercer, etc...in those games, what would you rate their performances? 

[WhiteTrash]

South Carolina finished 6th in the final poll.  Beating Marquette, Duke, Baylor, Florida, and just missing out on Gonzaga.  They got hot at the right time, stars aligned properly for them. 

Doesn't matter what SC did in the tournament. It's a crap shoot.

[Cheeks]

The uphill battle you are fighting for Wojo is a result of fans' "wholistic picture" of his time at MU.

Look, you see wonderful progress during his tenure. A lot see a sub-par performance for MU's standards. The administration sees satisfactory progress hence he was given a modest extension (that I agreed with).

I think it is equally disingenuous to ignore the failures, and the successes he has had.

Who is ignoring the failures?  I look at what he inherited, who he is allowed to recruit, this version of the Big East vs the old one, and are his players model citizens, etc.  Overall progress, very good and trajectory year over year has been right even with last year's finish.

[WhiteTrash]

Who is ignoring the failures?  I look at what he inherited, who he is allowed to recruit, this version of the Big East vs the old one, and are his players model citizens, etc.  Overall progress, very good and trajectory year over year has been right even with last year's finish.

I'd guess other's perception of your view on Wojo is skewed because you like to defend him. Similarly you may view those with criticisms of him as irrational 'haters' of Wojo. JMO but I think most people here are actually much closer to having the same feelings on Wojo than how it plays out on a message board.

Can you explain the comments on the conference above? I know the new BigEast is not as good as the old BigEast (which was the best conference ever), but the BigEast is better most years than say the Big10 and I've never heard anyone make excuses for Izzo because he coaches in the Big10.