MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Mr. Sand-Knit on September 12, 2019, 09:35:01 PM

Title: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on September 12, 2019, 09:35:01 PM
Since the day the Hausers left this board has had a divide widened over coach Wojo.  As the summer went on both sides have seemed to separate further as it appeared the critical 2020 class may not end up at the level scoopers and writers felt was necessary.  Some were going off the deep end and even the “slurpers” had to have some concerns. 
All this changes with Osa on board. The divide has hopefully narrowed.
Most importantly,  There is now no question the worm has turned and the only direction is up for this class. Consider we now have two forward commitments in the top 100.  As nice a player as Sam Hauser was these guys are both infinitely more athletic than Sam.  Wojo continues to not only increase the skill but the athlecism in his classes. This class is worst case top 3-4 in the BE with the potential of being #1 with even one more of our top targets.  Great stuff from Wojo n staff.  Recruiting is 90% of winning in college bball, that should never be lost on anyone.  The potential of a whiff on the 2020 is resoundingly smashed.  The concerns are dashed, the worm has turned from a potential crash and burn to a smashing hit.  Good day to be a Warrior, congrats to the coaches and  program.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: muguru on September 12, 2019, 09:40:06 PM
Since the day the Hausers left this board has had a divide widened over coach Wojo.  As the summer went on both sides have seemed to separate further as it appeared the critical 2020 class may not end up at the level scoopers and writers felt was necessary.  Some were going off the deep end and even the “slurpers” had to have some concerns. 
All this changes with Osa on board. The divide has hopefully narrowed.
Most importantly,  There is now no question the worm has turned and the only direction is up for this class. Consider we now have two forward commitments in the top 100.  As nice a player as Sam Hauser was these guys are both infinitely more athletic than Sam.  Wojo continues to not only increase the skill but the athlecism in his classes. This class is worst case top 3-4 in the BE with the potential of being #1 with even one more of our top targets.  Great stuff from Wojo n staff.  Recruiting is 90% of winning in college bball, that should never be lost on anyone.  The potential of a whiff on the 2020 is resoundingly smashed.  The concerns are dashed, the worm has turned from a potential crash and burn to a smashing hit.  Good day to be a Warrior, congrats to the coaches and  program.

You make very valid points, and this class is off to a great start, but I think even the Coaches would tell you, it's not how you start but how you finish that matters most. That's absolutely crucial. Garcia and Davis, your table is ready..
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on September 12, 2019, 09:44:40 PM
You make very valid points, and this class is off to a great start, but I think even the Coaches would tell you, it's not how you start but how you finish that matters most. That's absolutely crucial. Garcia and Davis, your table is ready..

So if i follow you...if a school signs the top 2 players in the country and then its a bust if 2 months later signs a top 150 kid as their final recruit???
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: WhiteTrash on September 12, 2019, 09:45:59 PM
Sand,

You make some great points. Very exciting for MU and the only way to rid ourselves of the foul taste of the end of the season.

BTW, Sam was/is way more than 'a nice player'.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: MU82 on September 12, 2019, 09:48:50 PM
I like the OP's tone and passion, but Sam would have been long gone by the time these recruits start playing. But hey ... they're way way more athletic than Joey, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on September 12, 2019, 09:49:35 PM
Sand,

You make some great points. Very exciting for MU and the only way to rid ourselves of the foul taste of the end of the season.

BTW, Sam was/is way more than 'a nice player'.

Very nice in areas, exactly what we needed to get away from in others.
Joey too.  Can guard Big Ten guys but not BE
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: muguru on September 12, 2019, 09:57:32 PM
So if i follow you...if a school signs the top 2 players in the country and then its a bust if 2 months later signs a top 150 kid as their final recruit???

That's a little different example, these aren't the top two kids in the country..this class is off to a VERY good start, if he finishes with Davis and Garcia...just...wow.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: JakeBarnes on September 12, 2019, 10:07:35 PM
That's a little different example, these aren't the top two kids in the country..this class is off to a VERY good start, if he finishes with Davis and Garcia...just...wow.

If he gets one of those two...still wow.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 12, 2019, 10:10:39 PM
Agree with the OP.  Very positive vibes now.  Get one of Davis or García or Suggs, etc and it is the home run class that Wojo needed especially paired with Symir.  It is good for both his and our sanity. 

The bad taste of losing Sam,however, will only wash away fully with a good year on the court and I am cautiously optimistic about that as well.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 12, 2019, 10:32:42 PM
So if i follow you...if a school signs the top 2 players in the country and then its a bust if 2 months later signs a top 150 kid as their final recruit???

Getting the top 2 and getting 2 in the 70s are very different. This class is off to a wonderful start. It's assured to be a good one. Guru (and I hope the rest of us) are just hoping that it turns out to be a great one.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: dgies9156 on September 12, 2019, 10:42:36 PM
Don't count your Nattys just yet!

Look, I thnk Osa was a tremendous "get" for Marquette and we competed against some very good schools. Coach Wojo is to be congratulated and hopefully a couple more goodies are out there that we land and we get MU basketball back to the excellence we once had.

But before I start making arrangements for the Final Four, I want to see what we do with what we have. There has been too much attrition from our program in recent years. The Brothers Hauser meltdown, sorry, was first and foremost, a management failure. That's on the coach, pure and simple. If Wojo can make these people fit, I'm a believer!
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on September 12, 2019, 10:43:51 PM
Getting the top 2 and getting 2 in the 70s are very different. This class is off to a wonderful start. It's assured to be a good one. Guru (and I hope the rest of us) are just hoping that it turns out to be a great one.

Agrred just debasing gurus argument of “its not how u start a class its how u finish it”. Completely nonsensical. Its his first response above
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: WhiteTrash on September 12, 2019, 10:48:18 PM
Agrred just debasing gurus are meant of “its nit how u start a class its how u finish it”. Completely nonsensical
Huh? I don't get the inside jokes on this board.  >:(
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 12, 2019, 11:05:00 PM
Great start. Need one more big name or two more solid ones til my worm is fully turned
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: GoldenDieners32 on September 12, 2019, 11:08:25 PM
Great start. Need one more big name or two more solid ones til my worm is fully turned
+1
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 12, 2019, 11:28:44 PM
Some of us haven’t wavered....not surprised at all.  Welcome to MU.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: muwarrior69 on September 13, 2019, 06:17:27 AM
I am just glad we did not have to pay a ton for these two commits.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: MU82 on September 13, 2019, 06:50:49 AM
For those of us who had major fears that Hausershima would make it extremely difficult for Wojo to get any traction at all with any decent recruits, those fears seem to have been waaaay overstated. And I fully admit I was one Scooper who had those concerns.

Just as his "evil" treatment of the Ellensons didn't prevent the Hausers from signing on the dotted line, Hausershima does not seem to have hurt him at all on the recruiting trail. Since The Lettermen quit on his program, he has signed two very nice recruits, has been a finalist for several others, and is still in the running for numerous top-notch players.

Recruits apparently like it that we have playing time to offer, that we are in a good conference in which just about every game is nationally televised, that our players seem genuinely happy to be part of our program, that we regularly pack an NBA arena, and that we have likable coaches.

Every program goes through adversity. So far, it looks like ours is emerging encouragingly from Hausershima -- with a chance to really thrive.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: willie warrior on September 13, 2019, 06:53:39 AM
Don't count your Nattys just yet!

Look, I thnk Osa was a tremendous "get" for Marquette and we competed against some very good schools. Coach Wojo is to be congratulated and hopefully a couple more goodies are out there that we land and we get MU basketball back to the excellence we once had.

But before I start making arrangements for the Final Four, I want to see what we do with what we have. There has been too much attrition from our program in recent years. The Brothers Hauser meltdown, sorry, was first and foremost, a management failure. That's on the coach, pure and simple. If Wojo can make these people fit, I'm a believer!
How dare you blaspheme Wojo about losing the Hausers. Haven't you read the posts here by many. Good riddance to the Hausers. Scoopers want volunteers, not hostages. Hope that these new guys work out, but their assistance is still a year away.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 13, 2019, 07:16:39 AM
Don't count your Nattys just yet!

Look, I thnk Osa was a tremendous "get" for Marquette and we competed against some very good schools. Coach Wojo is to be congratulated and hopefully a couple more goodies are out there that we land and we get MU basketball back to the excellence we once had.

But before I start making arrangements for the Final Four, I want to see what we do with what we have. There has been too much attrition from our program in recent years. The Brothers Hauser meltdown, sorry, was first and foremost, a management failure. That's on the coach, pure and simple. If Wojo can make these people fit, I'm a believer!

Few things are pure and simple in college athletics anymore. Takes two to tango. 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: tower912 on September 13, 2019, 07:28:56 AM
Apparently, OSO can smell-l-l-l what the Woj is cooking.  Seriously, though, the best thing Wojo can do regarding Hausergate and future recruits is show them the letter.  Most kids who have playing high level basketball for years will look at it, think WTF, and then listen to Wojo.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on September 13, 2019, 07:49:39 AM
Quote
The smallest worm will turn being trodden on,
And doves will peck in safeguard of their brood.

https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2018/08/19/what-is-the-origin-of-the-worm-has-turned/
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: muwarrior69 on September 13, 2019, 08:08:35 AM
Great start. Need one more big name or two more solid ones til my worm is fully turned

I'm glad we recruited these two, but will they be impact players in 2020. I know we were pretty excited when Symir switched to 2019, but now we are saying don't expect great things this season. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if these guys are competitive with the guys Nova is getting.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: The Lens on September 13, 2019, 08:21:17 AM
Apparently, OSO can smell-l-l-l what the Woj is cooking.  Seriously, though, the best thing Wojo can do regarding Hausergate and future recruits is show them the letter.  Most kids who have playing high level basketball for years will look at it, think WTF, and then listen to Wojo.

Wojo:  Here, check out this letter

Recruit: Woah, where did the letter writers transfer to?

Wojo: Virginia and Michigan State

Stan: Yeah, let's not talk about the letter anymore, ok? 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 13, 2019, 09:23:59 AM
Wojo:  Here, check out this letter

Recruit: Woah, where did the letter writers transfer to?

Wojo: Virginia and Michigan State

Stan: Yeah, let's not talk about the letter anymore, ok?

Recruit:  I’d like to talk to the team about the chemistry, coach, and why some may have left

Coaches:  We agree and encourage you to do it

Later.......

Recruit:   I’m coming to Marquette
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: willie warrior on September 13, 2019, 09:36:19 AM
Wojo:  Here, check out this letter

Recruit: Woah, where did the letter writers transfer to?

Wojo: Virginia and Michigan State

Stan: Yeah, let's not talk about the letter anymore, ok?
Wojo: Don't be concerned about where those guys transferred to. Those team were desperate for bench fodder.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: WhiteTrash on September 13, 2019, 09:36:25 AM
I don't know about others but for a long time I have felt Wojo has the following:

Great pedigree: Check
Classy person: Check
Runs a clean program: Check
Very good/great recruiter: Check
Results on the court: Incomplete

Com'on Wojo. Put it all together on the court and MU nation will love you and the university will reward you will a serious extension that will make leaving MU very difficult.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: The Lens on September 13, 2019, 09:45:33 AM
Wojo: Don't be concerned about where those guys transferred to. Those team were desperate for bench fodder.

This reminds me of Badger fans who said "Hey Tyler, enjoy riding the pine at Kentucky"

Ummm...you expect the recruit you wanted to star for Wisconsin will ride the pine for Kentucky?  What does that say about your level of expectations for your own team?  And why would Bennett waste two years of a scholarship for 1 year of bench fodder.

Maybe let's just not bring up the letter bc it makes all parties look bad.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: mu_hilltopper on September 13, 2019, 10:10:37 AM
It's great to know the worm has turned.  Awesome.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: tower912 on September 13, 2019, 10:19:02 AM
Wojo: Don't be concerned about where those guys transferred to. Those team were desperate for bench fodder.
Wojo:. Good players.  But there can only be one boss.   I wish them well.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: TheyWereCones on September 13, 2019, 11:52:14 AM
I don't know about others but for a long time I have felt Wojo has the following:

Great pedigree: Check
Classy person: Check
Runs a clean program: Check
Very good/great recruiter: Check
Results on the court: Incomplete

Com'on Wojo. Put it all together on the court and MU nation will love you and the university will reward you will a serious extension that will make leaving MU very difficult.

This is where I'm at too.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 13, 2019, 12:39:27 PM
I don't know about others but for a long time I have felt Wojo has the following:

Great pedigree: Check
Classy person: Check
Runs a clean program: Check
Very good/great recruiter: Check
Results on the court: Incomplete

Com'on Wojo. Put it all together on the court and MU nation will love you and the university will reward you will a serious extension that will make leaving MU very difficult.

Each year results on the court have gotten better. 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 13, 2019, 12:42:37 PM
Most kids who have playing high level basketball for years will look at it, think WTF, and then listen to Wojo.

We don't know that there was a letter. If the likely fictional letter exists we don't know its contents, only that it didn't make Tom Izzo or Tony Bennett run for cover.

But you're correct about one thing - most kids who play high level HS basketball would say WTF if you showed them any letter. They may never have seen one - texts and tweets, yes. Letters, no.

Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Loose Cannon on September 13, 2019, 12:53:54 PM
We don't know that there was a letter. If the likely fictional letter exists we don't know its contents, only that it didn't make Tom Izzo or Tony Bennett run for cover.



I'm confused, if the letter does not exist, or its contents not known how do know that Izzo and Bennett were not mentioned in any manner.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Warrior Code on September 13, 2019, 12:58:09 PM
Huh? I don't get the inside jokes on this board.  >:(

That's not a bad thing. You're really not missing out on anything. Only the people who spend way too much time on this site will get all the jokes.


Signed,

Someone Who Spends Too Much (But Not *Way Too Much) Time On This Board
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: MU82 on September 13, 2019, 01:00:06 PM
We don't know that there was a letter. If the likely fictional letter exists we don't know its contents, only that it didn't make Tom Izzo or Tony Bennett run for cover.

True.

And thankfully, Hausershima didn't make other Marquette players run for cover. Nor did it appear to make recruits run for cover.

The only people who ran were Sam and Joey. Apparently, the others were so disgusted with Markus' selfishness and Wojo's incompetence that they decided to stay.

So everybody should be happy, both those who love Marquette and those who love the Hausers!
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on September 13, 2019, 01:23:14 PM
I'm glad we recruited these two, but will they be impact players in 2020. I know we were pretty excited when Symir switched to 2019, but now we are saying don't expect great things this season. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if these guys are competitive with the guys Nova is getting.

2020 was always gonna be somewhat of a rebuild unless we signed burger boys.  We will still be ok with upside and bettering that resting on the newbs.  No one expected much when the 3 amigos were freshman either, we shall see
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: frozena pizza on September 13, 2019, 01:24:45 PM
Losing the Hausers was (and still is) a huge disappointment.  Getting these last 2 recruits with potential for more is very encouraging and shows that the Hauser transfers probably won't impact our ability to recruit.

Not sure which way the worm is facing but the bottom line is these types of things tend to even out in the long run.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on September 13, 2019, 01:26:45 PM
I don't know about others but for a long time I have felt Wojo has the following:

Great pedigree: Check
Classy person: Check
Runs a clean program: Check
Very good/great recruiter: Check
Results on the court: Incomplete

Com'on Wojo. Put it all together on the court and MU nation will love you and the university will reward you will a serious extension that will make leaving MU very difficult.

Cannot disagree with this, will argue he was in rebuild until last year and until the last  6-7 everything seemed to be falling in line. Will always be a wtf happened?? Has to be the team chemistry was cracking, will forever nit be fans if tge Hausers for that selfishness.  How to destroy a team 101, cant understand those that wish them well, i wish them crap.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: MU82 on September 13, 2019, 02:16:19 PM
Losing the Hausers was (and still is) a huge disappointment.  Getting these last 2 recruits with potential for more is very encouraging and shows that the Hauser transfers probably won't impact our ability to recruit.

Agree completely. Signing good recruits for 2020-21 and beyond is great. Obviously happy Wojo is able to do it, because I feared he might not. But, it doesn't do a thing for us in 2019-20.

Sam would have helped next season tremendously, and Joey would have been a valuable contributor, too. Here's hoping the defense and athletic ability of those who will get the Hausers'  minutes can come close to making up for the offense lost.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: GooooMarquette on September 13, 2019, 02:21:48 PM
It's great to know the worm has turned.  Awesome.


Agreed. The worm's previous position always troubled me.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 13, 2019, 02:29:54 PM
True.

And thankfully, Hausershima didn't make other Marquette players run for cover. Nor did it appear to make recruits run for cover.

The only people who ran were Sam and Joey. Apparently, the others were so disgusted with Markus' selfishness and Wojo's incompetence that they decided to stay.

So everybody should be happy, both those who love Marquette and those who love the Hausers!


Amen
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: bilsu on September 13, 2019, 02:32:58 PM
Cannot disagree with this, will argue he was in rebuild until last year and until the last  6-7 everything seemed to be falling in line. Will always be a wtf happened?? Has to be the team chemistry was cracking, will forever nit be fans if tge Hausers for that selfishness.  How to destroy a team 101, cant understand those that wish them well, i wish them crap.
What I find interesting is that Villanova was 9-0 when MU was 8-1. They both went 4-5 in the second half of the Big East season. Obviously things went wrong, but most posters are not recognizing that the rest of the Big East was better the second half of the conference season.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: willie warrior on September 13, 2019, 02:40:01 PM
Wojo:. Good players.  But there can only be one boss.   I wish them well.
Hmmm....When did Mrs. Wojo start coaching the team?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: willie warrior on September 13, 2019, 02:42:40 PM

Amen
Just asking. Are you saying that those 2 are mutually exclusive?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: real chili 83 on September 13, 2019, 02:46:27 PM
Anyone want some tequila?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: 4everwarriors on September 13, 2019, 03:04:19 PM
Taught dis wuz gonna bee 'bout Dennis Rodman, hey?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: tower912 on September 13, 2019, 03:04:29 PM
What I find interesting is that Villanova was 9-0 when MU was 8-1. They both went 4-5 in the second half of the Big East season. Obviously things went wrong, but most posters are not recognizing that the rest of the Big East was better the second half of the conference season.
Nice.   Had not thought of that.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Eldon on September 13, 2019, 03:49:27 PM
And so starts the excuse for last year's implosion.

"What did you expect Wojo to do the last half of the year?!? Creighton and DePaul were ON FIGH-YERR!!"

I'm already adding it below 'empty cupboard'
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: tower912 on September 13, 2019, 03:52:31 PM
We could call it Hauser cancer.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Its DJOver on September 13, 2019, 03:57:46 PM
And so starts the excuse for last year's implosion.

"What did you expect Wojo to do the last half of the year?!? Creighton and DePaul were ON FIGH-YERR!!"

I'm already adding it below 'empty cupboard'

The second time we played DePaul we beat them by 19 and our "cancer" dropped 36 in only 21 shots, good try though.  As for CU Wojo should be sharing the blame with everyone that contributed to our 22 TOs, including something like 6 straight during a stretch in the second half.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: MU82 on September 13, 2019, 04:21:49 PM
The second time we played DePaul we beat them by 19 and our "cancer" dropped 36 in only 21 shots, good try though.  As for CU Wojo should be sharing the blame with everyone that contributed to our 22 TOs, including something like 6 straight during a stretch in the second half.

Joey apparently had a bet on Creighton in that one.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Its DJOver on September 13, 2019, 04:25:08 PM
Joey apparently had a bet on Creighton in that one.
Yea, one player having 6 TOs in a game is forgivable when he scores 33.  When our writing campaign combines to have 7 TOs and 9 points, that might have been the biggest factor contributing to the L.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: MU82 on September 13, 2019, 04:57:29 PM
Yea, one player having 6 TOs in a game is forgivable when he scores 33.  When our writing campaign combines to have 7 TOs and 9 points, that might have been the biggest factor contributing to the L.

I just remember two critical possessions in a row where Joey handed the ball to Creighton players for layups. It was as if he was a QB and the Creighton player was the RB.

I wonder how much $$$ he won.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 13, 2019, 05:08:16 PM
We could call it Hauser cancer.

So when do MSU and UVA start their chemo treatments? Their coaches must be insane - thank God MU never had to be led by the likes of Tom Izzo or Tony Bennett. #Hiroshima
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: tower912 on September 13, 2019, 05:30:04 PM
How would Bennet and Izzo have handled a letter, mutiny, ultimatum?   Everybody talks about the collapse but some refuse to draw a line from two featured disgruntled soon to be transfers and the poor performance.    Choosing instead to blame the BEPOY and coach who both stayed.   
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: WhiteTrash on September 13, 2019, 05:35:09 PM
How would Bennet and Izzo have handled a letter, mutiny, ultimatum?   Everybody talks about the collapse but some refuse to draw a line from two featured disgruntled soon to be transfers and the poor performance.    Choosing instead to blame the BEPOY and coach who both stayed.
The line of thinking is coaches like Izzo and Bennet would never let it get to that point. I'm not aware of them having to deal two featured players going AWOL, so the logic may not be flawed.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: GooooMarquette on September 13, 2019, 05:36:18 PM
So when do MSU and UVA start their chemo treatments? Their coaches must be insane - thank God MU never had to be led by the likes of Tom Izzo or Tony Bennett. #Hiroshima


Often it's a chemistry issue. Individually, Sam and Joey are very good players, and they had good chemistry in HS. And Markus and Sam were fine together at MU for two years too. Somehow, adding Joey to the combo of Markus + Sam just wasn't a good mix.

Does that make Joey a cancer? Not necessarily I guess, but he was clearly the biggest change from '17-'18 to '18-'19. Maybe he was fine being part of the "Sam and Joey show," and thought it would go back to that once he got to MU. But by then, Sam was well integrated with our Markus-led team, so Joey had to work his way into something he wasn't comfortable with.

At the end of the day, their departure (and ultimate separation) might be best for all involved. Markus obviously still has great chemistry with the guys who stayed, and Joey may be better with a clean slate where he has no illusion of it going back to him and Sam being options 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 13, 2019, 05:43:37 PM
How would Bennet and Izzo have handled a letter, mutiny, ultimatum?   Everybody talks about the collapse but some refuse to draw a line from two featured disgruntled soon to be transfers and the poor performance.    Choosing instead to blame the BEPOY and coach who both stayed.

Please print this "letter" you know so much about and endlessly refer to IF it exists. We actually know the answer to "How would Izzo and Bennett handle a couple guys Tower considers cancerous mutineers?". They went after them, gave them scholarships and welcomed them with open arms. Maybe they (Izzo and Bennett) actually watched some tape and talked to Joey and Sam instead of reading/swallowing your insights on the matter.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: tower912 on September 13, 2019, 06:02:32 PM
The Hausers are good basketball players.  It is why they were the second and third options on a ranked team.  They were disgruntled and left.   Transfers happen all the time.   Koby.  Jayce.  Jamil.  Jeronne. Odartey.  Carlino.  STjr.   They always find a home.  Izzo and Bennett clearly think that the plusses outweigh the minuses.   I am sure that if Wojo had an opportunity to have a player of the caliber of the Hausers transfer in, he would take them without hesitation, assuming that whatever caused them to leave their former situation would not be repeated under Wojo.  And he would probably be right.   I fully expect Sam and Joey to be just fine

But they were disgruntled as the season cratered.    You choose to not see a connection.   You are entitled to that opinion.   I see a connection.   You are going to have to convince me otherwise.

Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on September 13, 2019, 06:21:19 PM
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/l1J9vaSXlJZlG4sgg/giphy.gif)

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT7NiaTNr19A5EnS_GzFSMssxrsxz4vbyrRFTD5g3iqnkR2C3Qx)
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 13, 2019, 06:30:17 PM

But they were disgruntled as the season cratered.    You choose to not see a connection.   You are entitled to that opinion.   I see a connection.   You are going to have to convince me otherwise.

They were disgruntled long before the season cratered (Buffalo or before). They preferred a system where the ball was shared. So the season didn't crater because they were unhappy, it cratered because the guy who dominated the ball went into a major slump. Joey was bad down the stretch, too, but when a guy with a 40%+ usage hits the wall it's curtains.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Its DJOver on September 13, 2019, 06:33:06 PM
They were disgruntled long before the season cratered (Buffalo or before). They preferred a system where the ball was shared. So the season didn't crater because they were unhappy, it cratered because the guy who dominated the ball went into a major slump. Joey was bad down the stretch, too, but when a guy with a 40%+ usage hits the wall it's curtains.

Source?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: MU82 on September 13, 2019, 06:33:43 PM
Please print this "letter" you know so much about and endlessly refer to IF it exists. We actually know the answer to "How would Izzo and Bennett handle a couple guys Tower considers cancerous mutineers?". They went after them, gave them scholarships and welcomed them with open arms. Maybe they (Izzo and Bennett) actually watched some tape and talked to Joey and Sam instead of reading/swallowing your insights on the matter.

I agree with you totally on this, Lenny. Methinks some Scoopers are having some "fun" calling the Hausers "cancers" because Markus was called (multiple times) by one guy.

I'll ask you this, though: Had Markus decided to transfer rather than go pro, how many coaches do you think would have been interested in him?

My answer would be: all of them ... even though he was a, you know.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: jesmu84 on September 13, 2019, 06:38:27 PM
How would Bennet and Izzo have handled a letter, mutiny, ultimatum?   Everybody talks about the collapse but some refuse to draw a line from two featured disgruntled soon to be transfers and the poor performance.    Choosing instead to blame the BEPOY and coach who both stayed.

Does it factor into the discussion that every other player also stayed?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: cheebs09 on September 13, 2019, 06:39:49 PM
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/l1J9vaSXlJZlG4sgg/giphy.gif)

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT7NiaTNr19A5EnS_GzFSMssxrsxz4vbyrRFTD5g3iqnkR2C3Qx)

(https://s-yimg-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/w1200/s/s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/v52WMYqLzcYW2Ek6N5ct6w--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTY0MDtoPTM5OS44MTM1MTk4MTM1MTk4/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/Yam.qrnPijzHdtlnxYtqGA--~B/aD01MzY7dz04NTg7c209MTthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/homerun/feed_manager_auto_publish_494/9bc289d9bea2ca10f417e6225a8e62fd)
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: jesmu84 on September 13, 2019, 06:40:40 PM
I wonder if the boys going to different schools also plays a role in their future coaches feeling good about their temperament/mentality in their new locations
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 13, 2019, 06:42:33 PM
Source?

Multiple Scoop posters.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on September 13, 2019, 06:42:56 PM
Source?

His a$$.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Its DJOver on September 13, 2019, 06:44:48 PM
Multiple Scoop posters.

But not Joey or Sam?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 13, 2019, 06:46:35 PM
Does it factor into the discussion that every other player also stayed?

Playing time opened up, but there was a great deal of speculation that the Hauser weren't the only players less than thrilled with hero ball.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 13, 2019, 06:48:00 PM
I agree with you totally on this, Lenny. Methinks some Scoopers are having some "fun" calling the Hausers "cancers" because Markus was called (multiple times) by one guy.

I'll ask you this, though: Had Markus decided to transfer rather than go pro, how many coaches do you think would have been interested in him?

My answer would be: all of them ... even though he was a, you know.

I agree.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Its DJOver on September 13, 2019, 06:48:14 PM
Playing time opened up, but there was a great deal of speculation that the Hauser weren't the only players less than thrilled with hero ball.

Key word.  It's the internet so anyone can speculate about anything.  The fact is no one else was bothered enough to transfer.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: MU82 on September 13, 2019, 06:56:08 PM
Multiple Scoop posters.

I hear ya, Lenny, but I wonder if they're the same posters who said first that the Hausers were unhappy but they would be staying, and second that they were going to Wisconsin, and third that as many as four other Warriors were leaving. The Hauser Insiders didn't cover themselves with glory on that 4-1-1.

I actually liked Sam and Joey, and I wish like hell they had stayed. But given that they left, my single favorite sports story of 2019 was that they stiffed F%cky. It's so freakin' hilarious, I chuckle out loud every time I think of it.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 13, 2019, 07:07:29 PM
Please print this "letter" you know so much about and endlessly refer to IF it exists. We actually know the answer to "How would Izzo and Bennett handle a couple guys Tower considers cancerous mutineers?". They went after them, gave them scholarships and welcomed them with open arms. Maybe they (Izzo and Bennett) actually watched some tape and talked to Joey and Sam instead of reading/swallowing your insights on the matter.

Izzo and Bennett have it easier....each would only take one of them and not both at the same time.


 ;D
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: rocket surgeon on September 13, 2019, 07:07:38 PM
Playing time opened up, but there was a great deal of speculation that the Hauser weren't the only players less than thrilled with hero ball.

  here are some other intangibles lenny-first off, yes the hausers are good, but now they are vulnerable.  now, they HAVE to acclimate.  especially sam.  he may be out of options.  joey?  this is like b-ball boot camp-he don't make it for izzo, end of story.  now do not interpret this as rocket don't want the hausers to succeed-not at all.  they control their own destiny, not me.  both izzo and bennett realize ALL of this.  they both know talent.  they are both banking on the fact that the boys will have learned from their mistakes and will be all ears. it'll be very interesting to see how much ball they get...especially joey.  and mr & mrs had to move back a few rows ;)

as for the other players on the team?  very possible, but no one else left.  wojo prevented any more from leaving somehow and it wasn't his good looks...i don't think...nahhhh.  those that stayed are ALL in
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 13, 2019, 07:17:05 PM
Key word.  It's the internet so anyone can speculate about anything.  The fact is no one else was bothered enough to transfer.

Don't like speculation I suggest you avoid this topic - it's full of nothing but - a letter nobody's seen, contents of the unknown letter, Joey made Sam do it, Sam mage Joey do it, Mom is an a$$ and made them do it, Dad is an a$$ and made them do it, Sam wanted more shots, Joey wanted more shots, Sam and Joey both wanted more shots, Sam was jealous of Markus, Joey was jealous of Markus, Sam and Joey were jealous of Markus, etc..

Everyone has come to conclusions that confirm their biases. I'm no different - mine is toward team play and I thought last year's team relied too much on one player. That the second and third best players on the team (who grew up playing a "team first" system) agreed didn't surprise me. And when that one player was injured, went cold or both down the stretch he didn't know how to take his foot off of the gas and his coach didn't know how to make him. So the season cratered and the Hausers are gone - to outstanding coaches/programs.

Wojo's a young coach who has a lot going for him - I hope he learns from last year and has a long successful stay at MU. But (IMHO) last year's collapse is on him.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 13, 2019, 07:22:42 PM
Don't like speculation I suggest you avoid this topic - it's full of nothing but - a letter nobody's seen, contents of the unknown letter, Joey made Sam do it, Sam mage Joey do it, Mom is an a$$ and made them do it, Dad is an a$$ and made them do it, Sam wanted more shots, Joey wanted more shots, Sam and Joey both wanted more shots, Sam was jealous of Markus, Joey was jealous of Markus, Sam and Joey were jealous of Markus, etc..

Everyone has come to conclusions that confirm their biases. I'm no different - mine is toward team play and I thought last year's team relied too much on one player. That the second and third best players on the team (who grew up playing a "team first" system) agreed didn't surprise me. And when that one player was injured, went cold or both down the stretch he didn't know how to take his foot off of the gas and his coach didn't know how to make him. So the season cratered and the Hausers are gone - to outstanding coaches/programs.

Wojo's a young coach who has a lot going for him - I hope he learns from last year and has a long successful stay at MU. But (IMHO) last year's collapse is on him.

You excited about the recruits Lenny? 

Since we don’t know what happened last year, you still have no problem assigning the blame anyway.  Cool.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Its DJOver on September 13, 2019, 07:29:37 PM
Don't like speculation I suggest you avoid this topic - it's full of nothing but - a letter nobody's seen, contents of the unknown letter, Joey made Sam do it, Sam mage Joey do it, Mom is an a$$ and made them do it, Dad is an a$$ and made them do it, Sam wanted more shots, Joey wanted more shots, Sam and Joey both wanted more shots, Sam was jealous of Markus, Joey was jealous of Markus, Sam and Joey were jealous of Markus, etc..

Everyone has come to conclusions that confirm their biases. I'm no different - mine is toward team play and I thought last year's team relied too much on one player. That the second and third best players on the team (who grew up playing a "team first" system) agreed didn't surprise me. And when that one player was injured, went cold or both down the stretch he didn't know how to take his foot off of the gas and his coach didn't know how to make him. So the season cratered and the Hausers are gone - to outstanding coaches/programs.

Wojo's a young coach who has a lot going for him - I hope he learns from last year and has a long successful stay at MU. But (IMHO) last year's collapse is on him.

I just find it funny that you asked for specific evidence that you knew Tower didn't have...

Please print this "letter" you know so much about and endlessly refer to IF it exists.

and then in you're very next post, made a claim that would need specif evidence to back up...

They were disgruntled long before the season cratered (Buffalo or before).

I can only speculate myself, but I would think that no matter how someone's role changed from their vision to reality, you wouldn't be disgruntled enough to consider transferring in the middle of a 8 game winning streak and being ranked in the top 10  (all things that happened post Buffalo).  Similarly, I don't think you would be disgruntled with a 31 point performance on 1-15 (post Buffalo), or a 21 point performance on 1-26 (also post Buffalo). 

Again, I don't have the inside information so I can only speculate.  Just don't get upset when you get called out for not having the evidence on some speculation that you made.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: tower912 on September 13, 2019, 07:37:20 PM
Neither of us is going to change the other's mind, Lenny.  So be it.   Go, Marquette!
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 13, 2019, 07:56:38 PM
Neither of us is going to change the other's mind, Lenny.  So be it.   Go, Marquette!

I'm with you, Tower.

And to answer, Chico, I've already expressed my excitement regarding the 2020 class so far. Very hopeful that Wojo and co. finish things with a flourish.

Go, Marquette, indeed!
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: The Lens on September 13, 2019, 08:12:34 PM
We lost players to MSU & UVA...

But just keep pretending it’s all no big deal. 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 13, 2019, 08:16:34 PM
I just find it funny that you asked for specific evidence that you knew Tower didn't have...

and then in you're very next post, made a claim that would need specif evidence to back up...

I can only speculate myself, but I would think that no matter how someone's role changed from their vision to reality, you wouldn't be disgruntled enough to consider transferring in the middle of a 8 game winning streak and being ranked in the top 10  (all things that happened post Buffalo).  Similarly, I don't think you would be disgruntled with a 31 point performance on 1-15 (post Buffalo), or a 21 point performance on 1-26 (also post Buffalo). 

Again, I don't have the inside information so I can only speculate.  Just don't get upset when you get called out for not having the evidence on some speculation that you made.

As stated, I'm speculating - mostly based on what I've seen on the court, though.

The "letter" is pure speculation - nobody here even knows if it exists, let alone what's in it if it does.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: tower912 on September 13, 2019, 08:20:44 PM
We lost players to MSU & UVA...

But just keep pretending it’s all no big deal.
And Marquette picked up a 7 footer and 4 guards who weren't around a year ago.  And now has two top 100 recruits for next year.    The circle of life.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Its DJOver on September 13, 2019, 08:22:07 PM
As stated, I'm speculating - mostly based on what I've seen on the court, though.

The "letter" is pure speculation - nobody here even knows if it exists, let alone what's in it if it does.

Nobody here knows the Hausers attitude and position on the possibility of transferring prior to the Buffalo game.  Prenteding to know otherwise is pure speculation.  Both Sam and Joey had good games and not so good games both pre and post Buffalo.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on September 13, 2019, 08:25:09 PM
Furthermore, if they were truly upset about the offense at that point of the season, then I question their mindset.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 13, 2019, 08:38:48 PM
Nobody here knows the Hausers attitude and position on the possibility of transferring prior to the Buffalo game.  Prenteding to know otherwise is pure speculation.  Both Sam and Joey had good games and not so good games both pre and post Buffalo.

What? An unhappy player can't have a good game? That's hilarious. And patently, provably false.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Uncle Rico on September 13, 2019, 08:44:07 PM
Sam was one of my favorite Marquette players ever.  Bigger fan of his than Markus.  No reason.  Never is when you’re a fan.  You like some guys more than others.  Loved Davante over Jamil.  Loved Jerel over Wes and DJ.  Damon Key over Mac.  Supported them all.  Wish Sam was graduating at Marquette.  He isn’t.  That’s a shame.  Going to cheer for the guys here.  What’s done is done
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Its DJOver on September 13, 2019, 08:46:16 PM
What? An unhappy player can't have a good game? That's hilarious. And patently, provably false.

That was your whole argument literally one post ago

As stated, I'm speculating - mostly based on what I've seen on the court, though.

Now I'm officially confused because you are contradicting yourself post by post.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 13, 2019, 09:03:01 PM
That was your whole argument literally one post ago

Now I'm officially confused because you are contradicting yourself post by post.

?????? My whole argument was that an unhappy player can't have a good game??? I never said any such thing. Please quote my statements that you think say this because I'm confused by your lack of reading comprehension.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Silent Verbal on September 13, 2019, 09:11:21 PM
Here’s something that isn’t speculation:  Wojo has won zero NCAA tournament games in five seasons as head coach at Marquette.

Wojo’s recruiting continues to be on par with Crean’s and Buzz’s.  Getting Osa (#73 overall) and Lewis (#75) is just more evidence of that.  Get Suggs or Garcia, the class becomes next level and a cut above any the previous two coaches ever had.  Get RJ Davis, and Wojo will at the very least match Buzz and TC’s best in terms of hype and rankings.  So as far as recruiting goes, I don’t think the worm has really turned.  It’s pretty much right where it ought to be. 

The results on the court need to change.  The pressure will be on Wojo to win an NCAA tournament game this year.  With this being Howard’s last season, anything short of that will be a huge disappointment.  The recruits are nice but they haven’t played a minute of college basketball and won’t for another 14 months.  Let’s see how this season plays out before we start talking about worms turning or seas changing or whatever other type of I-told-you-so hubris comes to mind.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Its DJOver on September 13, 2019, 09:12:06 PM
?????? My whole argument was that an unhappy player can't have a good game??? I never said any such thing. Please quote my statements that you think say this because I'm confused by your lack of reading comprehension.

Your argument was this.

I'm speculating - mostly based on what I've seen on the court, though.

"What I've seen on the court".  How else would you interpret that other than the performances that Joey had on the court?  It seems pretty straight forward.

You took what you saw from Joey "on the court" and turned that into he was disgruntled enough pre Buffalo to decide to transfer.  How you came to this conclusion is the confusing part.  I'd like to understand, can you please name specifics of what you've "seen on the court" that led you to said conclusion?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Uncle Rico on September 13, 2019, 09:20:06 PM
Here’s something that isn’t speculation:  Wojo has won zero NCAA tournament games in five seasons as head coach at Marquette.

Wojo’s recruiting continues to be on par with Crean’s and Buzz’s.  Getting Osa (#73 overall) and Lewis (#75) is just more evidence of that.  Get Suggs or Garcia, the class becomes next level and a cut above any the previous two coaches ever had.  Get RJ Davis, and Wojo will at the very least match Buzz and TC’s best in terms of hype and rankings.  So as far as recruiting goes, I don’t think the worm has really turned.  It’s pretty much right where it ought to be.

Now, where things need to change is the on-court results.  The pressure will be on Wojo to win an NCAA tournament game this year.  With this being Howard’s last season, anything short of that will be a huge disappointment.  The recruits are nice but they haven’t played a minute of college basketball and won’t for another 14 months.  Let’s see how this season plays out before we start talking about worms turning or seas changing or whatever other type of I-told-you-so hubris comes to mind.

This is fair.  The tournament is a crapshoot but it’s time to win or at least compete for 40 minutes in March
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: The Lens on September 13, 2019, 09:33:00 PM
Here’s something that isn’t speculation:  Wojo has won zero NCAA tournament games in five seasons as head coach at Marquette.

Wojo’s recruiting continues to be on par with Crean’s and Buzz’s.  Getting Osa (#73 overall) and Lewis (#75) is just more evidence of that.  Get Suggs or Garcia, the class becomes next level and a cut above any the previous two coaches ever had.  Get RJ Davis, and Wojo will at the very least match Buzz and TC’s best in terms of hype and rankings.  So as far as recruiting goes, I don’t think the worm has really turned.  It’s pretty much right where it ought to be. 

The results on the court need to change.  The pressure will be on Wojo to win an NCAA tournament game this year.  With this being Howard’s last season, anything short of that will be a huge disappointment.  The recruits are nice but they haven’t played a minute of college basketball and won’t for another 14 months.  Let’s see how this season plays out before we start talking about worms turning or seas changing or whatever other type of I-told-you-so hubris comes to mind.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: MU82 on September 13, 2019, 09:37:14 PM
We lost players to MSU & UVA...

But just keep pretending it’s all no big deal.

The majority of Scoopers aren't pretending "it's all no big deal" IMHO.

The Hauser faction thinks it's a huge, huge, huge deal, and confirmation that their doubts about Wojo were right. The Wojo faction, sure, maybe they think it's no big deal.

I believe most, however, are in the middle -- disappointed the Hausers quit the program, wish they had stayed, worried about where the outside shooting is going to come from, concerned (at least initially) that the fallout might seriously hurt Wojo's recruiting (it doesn't seem to have), and now saying it's all on Wojo to prove he can take this program to the next level.

Those of us in that latter group realize there is nothing anybody can do about the past. Despite the departure of one very good Big East player and one potentially good player, we are trying to be optimistic about a future that includes a possible National Player of the Year and some solid role players.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 13, 2019, 09:37:25 PM
Your argument was this.

"What I've seen on the court".  How else would you interpret that other than the performances that Joey had on the court?  It seems pretty straight forward.

You took what you saw from Joey "on the court" and turned that into he was disgruntled enough pre Buffalo to decide to transfer.  How you came to this conclusion is the confusing part.  I'd like to understand, can you please name specifics of what you've "seen on the court" that led you to said conclusion?

Who said what I saw "from Joey" on the court. I don't know when Sam or Joey decided to transfer. I don't know, either, when they first became unhappy with hero ball. But it (hero ball) started well before our collapse - so my guess would be well before our collapse.

When I said I drew my conclusions "from what I saw on the court" I was referring to hero ball, a system (based on their background) that I didn't think Sam and Joey would like.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Its DJOver on September 13, 2019, 09:47:08 PM
Who said what I saw "from Joey" on the court. I don't know when Sam or Joey decided to transfer. I don't know, either, when they first became unhappy with hero ball. But it (hero ball) started well before our collapse - so my guess would be well before our collapse.

When I said I drew my conclusions "from what I saw on the court" I was referring to hero ball, a system (based on their background) that I didn't think Sam and Joey would like.

So you're backtracking on what you said.  That's fine, NBD, just try to refrain from making wild speculations without any evidence.  As for the "hero ball", that started before Joey was on campus, and Joey knew Markus very well prior to his commitment. Sam also played with Markus for 2.5 years without being disgruntled to the point of transferring so I'm not sure it was as big of a factor as you do, which is also fine (opinions right).  I don't know the exact reasons why they transferred, and neither do you, which is the whole point that I was trying to make from the beginning.  Have a good weekend.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: WhiteTrash on September 13, 2019, 09:53:56 PM
The majority of Scoopers aren't pretending "it's all no big deal" IMHO.

The Hauser faction thinks it's a huge, huge, huge deal, and confirmation that their doubts about Wojo were right. The Wojo faction, sure, maybe they think it's no big deal.

I believe most, however, are in the middle -- disappointed the Hausers quit the program, wish they had stayed, worried about where the outside shooting is going to come from, concerned (at least initially) that the fallout might seriously hurt Wojo's recruiting (it doesn't seem to have), and now saying it's all on Wojo to prove he can take this program to the next level.

Those of us in that latter group realize there is nothing anybody can do about the past. Despite the departure of one very good Big East player and one potentially good player, we are trying to be optimistic about a future that includes a possible National Player of the Year and some solid role players.
Whoa! Time Out! What is this Bull$h!t?

Sir, this is a internet fan board. Your level headed, thoughtful and reasoned opinions are not welcome here.

Can we please go back to name calling, absolute assertions, fabrication of facts, hyperbole and snide remarks?

The nerve of some people never fails to amaze me. 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: mileskishnish72 on September 13, 2019, 10:00:53 PM
Agree that Wojo very badly needs a tournament win. But

that Murray State game was no crap shoot, it was a solid ass-kicking.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on September 13, 2019, 10:06:57 PM
Agree that Wojo very badly needs a tournament win. But

that Murray State game was no crap shoot, it was a solid ass-kicking.

The Murray State game was most definitely a crap chute.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 13, 2019, 10:09:34 PM
We lost players to MSU & UVA...

But just keep pretending it’s all no big deal.

Wojo got them here in the first place....he just landed two more good players....dwell in the past if you wish....
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Uncle Rico on September 13, 2019, 10:11:32 PM
The Murray State game was most definitely a crap chute.

It was.  Ugly game.  It was simply a terrible matchup and matchups matter.  Davidson in ‘13 was a terrible matchup.  FSU in the round of 32 would have been just as bad.

Losing by 19 was inexcusable, losing wasn’t. 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 13, 2019, 10:12:31 PM
Agree that Wojo very badly needs a tournament win. But

that Murray State game was no crap shoot, it was a solid ass-kicking.

Yup...it happens....we could go through lots and lots of coaches, including Hall of Famers that got their ass kicked in the tournament.....

Whether he needs to very badly win a game or not I am not worried about.  No one on this board from what I can tell has any juice to make that decision, let alone influence it. 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 13, 2019, 10:13:44 PM
I'm with you, Tower.

And to answer, Chico, I've already expressed my excitement regarding the 2020 class so far. Very hopeful that Wojo and co. finish things with a flourish.

Go, Marquette, indeed!

Thanks Lenny, glad you are excited.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 13, 2019, 10:28:29 PM
So you're backtracking on what you said. 

No, not backtracking at all. You distorted what I said by adding your own words and then attributing them to me. That's dishonest and/or willfully ignorant. NBD, just try to refrain from it in the future. Have a nice weekend.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: dgies9156 on September 13, 2019, 10:34:16 PM

Losing by 19 was inexcusable, losing wasn’t.

Bullcrap.

It was Murray F***ing State. Losing to any OVC team by a Big East team is inexcusable. I don't care if it is DePaul. Big East teams do NOT lose to Murray F***ing State.

Al would have killed for less than that!
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 13, 2019, 10:38:27 PM
Bullcrap.

It was Murray F***ing State. Losing to any OVC team by a Big East team is inexcusable. I don't care if it is DePaul. Big East teams do NOT lose to Murray F***ing State.

Al would have killed for less than that!

Marquette losing to Miami (OH)
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: 79Warrior on September 13, 2019, 10:52:49 PM
Marquette losing to Miami (OH)

Al was gone.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 13, 2019, 10:56:49 PM
Al was gone.

Understand, his players still there and his X’s And O’s guy coaching the team....someone with a ton of experience.  It happens.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 13, 2019, 11:16:50 PM
Understand, his players still there and his X’s And O’s guy coaching the team....someone with a ton of experience.  It happens.

Hank was a rookie D1 head coach, Wojo was in year 5. Both had tons of experience in D1 as assistants.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 13, 2019, 11:24:27 PM
Hank was a rookie D1 head coach, Wojo was in year 5. Both had tons of experience in D1 as assistants.

Hank had 6 years as a college head coach, and had a team loaded with talent that lost in one of the biggest upsets in NCAA tournament history.  MU was ranked 3rd in the nation...this was akin to losing to a 16 or 15 seed.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: real chili 83 on September 13, 2019, 11:26:57 PM
Bullcrap.

It was Murray F***ing State. Losing to any OVC team by a Big East team is inexcusable. I don't care if it is DePaul. Big East teams do NOT lose to Murray F***ing State.

Al would have killed for less than that!

This ^^^^^
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 13, 2019, 11:35:55 PM
ACC teams like Duke don’t lose to Mercer or Lehigh...until they do.  ACC teams like UVA don’t lose to UMBC...until they do.

Big East teams like #1 UCONN don’t lose to George Mason....until they do.


And on and on and on.....examples for a long time.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: 79Warrior on September 13, 2019, 11:46:02 PM
Hank had 6 years as a college head coach, and had a team loaded with talent that lost in one of the biggest upsets in NCAA tournament history.  MU was ranked 3rd in the nation...this was akin to losing to a 16 or 15 seed.

Except there were far fewer teams in the tourney then. You were not there obviously.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 13, 2019, 11:49:19 PM
Hank had 6 years as a college head coach, and had a team loaded with talent that lost in one of the biggest upsets in NCAA tournament history.  MU was ranked 3rd in the nation...this was akin to losing to a 16 or 15 seed.

17 - 23 years earlier he coached at the NAIA level (DIII today). Hadn't had his own whistle since then. Only 32 teams, so hardly like a 15 or 16 seed - more like 13. Lots of bad conferences didn't get automatic bids then. No seeding then - we were #3 and would have met #1 (and eventual National Champ) in our S16 (next) game.

Awful loss, but as someone pointed out, Al wasn't the coach. And the double technical/ejection of Jerome which made it all possible was a joke. Wojo's only had 2 bites at the apple, not enough to establish a trend, but when you lose a pick em by 20 and as a 4 point favorite by 19 on the big stage that's just not good.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: willie warrior on September 14, 2019, 06:03:04 AM
Yup...it happens....we could go through lots and lots of coaches, including Hall of Famers that got their ass kicked in the tournament.....

Whether he needs to very badly win a game or not I am not worried about.  No one on this board from what I can tell has any juice to make that decision, let alone influence it.
Good one there. Comparing Wojos mediocre performance to hall of Famers--deflection at its finest.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: willie warrior on September 14, 2019, 06:05:56 AM
Marquette losing to Miami (OH)
Yes, dwell in the past if you wish
Some of us choose what era of the past we wish to dwell in.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: The Lens on September 14, 2019, 06:13:12 AM
Wojo got them here in the first place....he just landed two more good players....dwell in the past if you wish....

Landed two more good players to once again backfill experience with youth.  We continue to never get old.  The key is to get old and stay old and we just cannot get there. That’s the sad part.  I’m not dwelling on it, I’m bringing up the reality. 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: dgies9156 on September 14, 2019, 06:22:51 AM
Al was gone.

I was on campus the day we lost to Miami of Ohio.

Worst day in the history of the Marquette Warrior basketball program.

Defending National Champions NEVER lose to Miami of Boondocks!

Well, almost never.

We went into a 30 year tailspin over that one.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on September 14, 2019, 07:31:22 AM
We went into a 30 year tailspin over that one.

Don't tell Cheeks that the tailspin ended the year Crean left.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: bilsu on September 14, 2019, 09:11:07 AM
My opinion
We lost to Murray St for two reasons.
First one was Howard. He came in with the mission to outplay Murray St.'s star and failed miserably. Just like he generally did when he came up against Powell and Ponds.
Second was that our forwards (Hausers) failed to or were not quick enough to cover the wings when the Murray St. guard pass to the corners for open threes.

It was very easy to see that Murray St. game plan was to suck MU's  defense in  and then pass the ball for open threes that MU could not get back to cover. MU's game plan was to stop Murray St's guard, which just played into Murray St.'s game plan. We simply could not cover the corner threes. Of course the plan fails, if Murray St. does not hit the threes, but MU's defense was exposed in this game.

Somewhat reminds me of Buzz's faulty game plan against North Carolina. Buzz, fearing UNC's fast break on missed threes, went away form our strength. We did not take any outside shots and repeatedly fed the ball to Otule, who failed to score.

Wojo's game plan against Murray St. was bad, but not as bad as Buzz's against UNC.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: tower912 on September 14, 2019, 10:22:36 AM
We lost to Murray State because of Ja and team quickness.   Sam was guarded by a 6'4 guy who was quicker and lived in his grill because he knew Sam couldn't go by him.  MU got beat by guards with size repeatedly down the stretch.  Ja was the best of the bunch.   I predicted a double digits loss because of those reasons.
Nobody could stay in front of Ja.   The help was slow, the recovery to shooters slower.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on September 14, 2019, 11:51:02 AM
If Marquette makes the tournament and doesn’t win a game, Wojo’s job is still safe.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 14, 2019, 12:03:55 PM
17 - 23 years earlier he coached at the NAIA level (DIII today). Hadn't had his own whistle since then. Only 32 teams, so hardly like a 15 or 16 seed - more like 13. Lots of bad conferences didn't get automatic bids then. No seeding then - we were #3 and would have met #1 (and eventual National Champ) in our S16 (next) game.

Awful loss, but as someone pointed out, Al wasn't the coach. And the double technical/ejection of Jerome which made it all possible was a joke. Wojo's only had 2 bites at the apple, not enough to establish a trend, but when you lose a pick em by 20 and as a 4 point favorite by 19 on the big stage that's just not good.

Al told me and many others, Hank ran practices, Hank was the x’s and o’s....he had a whistle in his mouth all the time...he had the National player of the year on his team and guys that had just won the title....no way they should have lost that game.  Hank said after game, we were good enough to win the national title.

Miami had lost 2 of their last 3 games coming into that contest....to Eastern Michigan and Toledo.  I realize there were only 32 teams, but you have to remember how bids were given out back then....conference champions only.  Which meant a lot of very good teams, much better than Miami (OH) weren't even in the tournament.  It was equivalent to losing to a 15 or 16 seed.  It was that bad.  The fact that we publically complained about the bracket beforehand and basically dismissed Miami (OH) was not a good look, either.

57% of the betting public was with Murray State

Duke, meanwhile was favored by double digits over Mercer and Lehigh....they lost to both...it happens.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 14, 2019, 12:04:43 PM
Good one there. Comparing Wojos mediocre performance to hall of Famers--deflection at its finest.

Hall of Fame coaches with Better talent can lose these games, but a young coach with less is inexcusable.....lol.  Jesus H
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 14, 2019, 12:06:42 PM
Landed two more good players to once again backfill experience with youth.  We continue to never get old.  The key is to get old and stay old and we just cannot get there. That’s the sad part.  I’m not dwelling on it, I’m bringing up the reality.

Not wrong, but better than the gloom and doom here that he would strike out on recruiting and not backfill...which he didn’t. 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on September 14, 2019, 12:12:54 PM
Not wrong, but better than the gloom and doom here that he would strike out on recruiting and not backfill...which he didn’t.

Actually u are completely wrong
We will likely start 3 seniors this year and have a 5th yr senior n a 4th year junior as two of the first off the bench.  Add in theo and jamal as juniors and elloitt as a 3rd year sophomore and u are completely wrong.  Next year we will start 3-4 4th or 5th year players and would be wrong again.  We lost sam and added a 5th year so on age alone u are delusional.  Mu will be one of the older teams this yr.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on September 14, 2019, 12:21:31 PM
Here’s something that isn’t speculation:  Wojo has won zero NCAA tournament games in five seasons as head coach at Marquette.

Wojo’s recruiting continues to be on par with Crean’s and Buzz’s.  Getting Osa (#73 overall) and Lewis (#75) is just more evidence of that.  Get Suggs or Garcia, the class becomes next level and a cut above any the previous two coaches ever had.  Get RJ Davis, and Wojo will at the very least match Buzz and TC’s best in terms of hype and rankings.  So as far as recruiting goes, I don’t think the worm has really turned.  It’s pretty much right where it ought to be. 

The results on the court need to change.  The pressure will be on Wojo to win an NCAA tournament game this year.  With this being Howard’s last season, anything short of that will be a huge disappointment.  The recruits are nice but they haven’t played a minute of college basketball and won’t for another 14 months.  Let’s see how this season plays out before we start talking about worms turning or seas changing or whatever other type of I-told-you-so hubris comes to mind.

Nice rant , however the worm turning was in respect to the perception and reality of the recruiting for the “critical” 2020 class. The general vibe has gone from possibly quite disappointing to probably really good.  I think this is pretty undeniable and again the context of the post. 
With that said continue being dissapointed with the program if u want, i will continue to recognize when we win battles
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 14, 2019, 12:22:30 PM
Actually u are completely wrong
We will likely start 3 seniors this year and have a 5th yr senior n a 4th year junior as two of the first off the bench.  Add in theo and jamal as juniors and elloitt as a 3rd year sophomore and u are completely wrong.  Next year we will start 3-4 4th or 5th year players and would be wrong again.  We lost sam and added a 5th year so on age alone u are delusional.  Mu will be one of the older teams this yr.

Youth is not just for one year, which I think was part of Lens’ point, too.  Those replacements were coming anyway, we’re talking about the recruits.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on September 14, 2019, 12:39:28 PM
Youth is not just for one year, which I think was part of Lens’ point, too.  Those replacements were coming anyway, we’re talking about the recruits.

Maybe so statement was still stupid.  Mu has 2 5th year and 4 4th yr players.  Additionally we have 3 3rd year players.  Mu is in no way shape or form young and next year will not be either.  The rant about staying you was stupid and remains stupid.  We were one of the oldest teams in the BE last year and will be for the next two years as well.  So RR can bitch and complain about how bad Wojo sucks all he wants, but to use him failing at getting old and staying old is prolly the wrong hill to die on.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: jesmu84 on September 14, 2019, 01:23:59 PM
Actually u are completely wrong
We will likely start 3 seniors this year and have a 5th yr senior n a 4th year junior as two of the first off the bench.  Add in theo and jamal as juniors and elloitt as a 3rd year sophomore and u are completely wrong.  Next year we will start 3-4 4th or 5th year players and would be wrong again.  We lost sam and added a 5th year so on age alone u are delusional.  Mu will be one of the older teams this yr.

Probably should have gone after the original poster and not cheeks, who is actually on the same page you are about doom and gloom
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: jesmu84 on September 14, 2019, 01:24:29 PM
Not wrong, but better than the gloom and doom here that he would strike out on recruiting and not backfill...which he didn’t.

Ya. I thought Hauser transfer was gonna make recruiting anyone decent impossible for wojo.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 14, 2019, 01:30:32 PM
Maybe so statement was still stupid.  Mu has 2 5th year and 4 4th yr players.  Additionally we have 3 3rd year players.  Mu is in no way shape or form young and next year will not be either.  The rant about staying you was stupid and remains stupid.  We were one of the oldest teams in the BE last year and will be for the next two years as well.  So RR can bitch and complain about how bad Wojo sucks all he wants, but to use him failing at getting old and staying old is prolly the wrong hill to die on.

You are targeting the wrong poster then.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on September 14, 2019, 02:59:57 PM
You are targeting the wrong poster then.

RR is research report and if u wanna defend his lunacy i will lump u in.
Wojo deserves his share of criticism. That aint one now
I criticized the tirnover n staying yound two-3 years ago to still attack that and not recognize that hes actually doin well in that area now is blind n moronic.  Again if RR is vehemently anti Wojo he might wanna use a different beef
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Small Orange Soda on September 14, 2019, 03:04:00 PM
Ya. I thought Hauser transfer was gonna make recruiting anyone decent impossible for wojo.

Feels like we're backtracking if Wojo's biggest victories are still on the recruiting trail and not the court.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on September 14, 2019, 03:11:03 PM
Feels like we're backtracking if Wojo's biggest victories are still on the recruiting trail and not the court.

24 wins, 2nd place in BE, ncaa tourney bid and then two top 100 kids of first two verbals are all victories.  Crap on them all u want, u just look stupid
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Small Orange Soda on September 14, 2019, 03:35:57 PM
24 wins, 2nd place in BE, ncaa tourney bid and then two top 100 kids of first two verbals are all victories.  Crap on them all u want, u just look stupid

Can't say I really care if a guy who can't spell thinks I'm stupid.  And if we're talking about last season, let's not forget the utter collapse down the stretch either.  He owns that too.

Osa's a real nice get for Wojo and the staff and so congrats to them.  Looks like there's a lot of positive vibes about his potential in the commitment thread, and that's great.  But threads like this one are obnoxious.  We've got a coach who still hasn't won a game in the tournament and people are crowing because this proves...that he can recruit guys in the top 100?  I thought we knew that.  That the Hausers leaving hasn't decimated the program?  Okay.  But are we going to be good enough to make noise in March at some point?

Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: NickelDimer on September 14, 2019, 04:04:57 PM
The Murray State game was most definitely a crap diarrhea chute.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 14, 2019, 04:11:25 PM
Can't say I really care if a guy who can't spell thinks I'm stupid.  And if we're talking about last season, let's not forget the utter collapse down the stretch either.  He owns that too.

Osa's a real nice get for Wojo and the staff and so congrats to them.  Looks like there's a lot of positive vibes about his potential in the commitment thread, and that's great.  But threads like this one are obnoxious.  We've got a coach who still hasn't won a game in the tournament and people are crowing because this proves...that he can recruit guys in the top 100?  I thought we knew that.  That the Hausers leaving hasn't decimated the program?  Okay.  But are we going to be good enough to make noise in March at some point?

Depends...who we play, how we play, where we play, etc.  Crapshoot.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on September 14, 2019, 04:38:12 PM
Can't say I really care if a guy who can't spell thinks I'm stupid.  And if we're talking about last season, let's not forget the utter collapse down the stretch either.  He owns that too.

Osa's a real nice get for Wojo and the staff and so congrats to them.  Looks like there's a lot of positive vibes about his potential in the commitment thread, and that's great.  But threads like this one are obnoxious.  We've got a coach who still hasn't won a game in the tournament and people are crowing because this proves...that he can recruit guys in the top 100?  I thought we knew that.  That the Hausers leaving hasn't decimated the program?  Okay.  But are we going to be good enough to make noise in March at some point?

Anyone that pines for the hausers, those same hausers that crap all over our program and were actually the ones that decimated the season. If ur a fan of theirs with their Me first attitudes and choose to place that on Wojo then u are even more lost than i had figured.  Hausers were perfect examples of how a few bad apples can derail a seemingly great season all for their selfish interests.  Old as time and a true tragedy, it happens, but to pine for them and blame the guys still fighting in the foxholes is pathetic
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: jonny09 on September 14, 2019, 05:02:11 PM
Anyone that pines for the hausers, those same hausers that crap all over our program and were actually the ones that decimated the season. If ur a fan of theirs with their Me first attitudes and choose to place that on Wojo then u are even more lost than i had figured.  Hausers were perfect examples of how a few bad apples can derail a seemingly great season all for their selfish interests.  Old as time and a true tragedy, it happens, but to pine for them and blame the guys still fighting in the foxholes is pathetic

Joey made a bad decision to come to MU by his own admission.  I don’t blame him.  Sam is where I have the issue.  1 year of eligibility and you leave?  Very very weak on his part IMO.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: jesmu84 on September 14, 2019, 05:05:19 PM
Feels like we're backtracking if Wojo's biggest victories are still on the recruiting trail and not the court.

I never said anything about "biggest victories".

I was merely pointing out those who stated wojos recruiting would suffer as a result of the Hauser transfer doesn't appear to be the reality of the current situation.

Isn't that a positive for the program?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Small Orange Soda on September 14, 2019, 05:21:57 PM
Anyone that pines for the hausers, those same hausers that crap all over our program and were actually the ones that decimated the season. If ur a fan of theirs with their Me first attitudes and choose to place that on Wojo then u are even more lost than i had figured.  Hausers were perfect examples of how a few bad apples can derail a seemingly great season all for their selfish interests.  Old as time and a true tragedy, it happens, but to pine for them and blame the guys still fighting in the foxholes is pathetic

I'm not pining for them.  I think when a team collapses down the stretch and loses two starters it's a bad thing.  I think the ultimate responsibility for that falls on the coach.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Small Orange Soda on September 14, 2019, 05:23:10 PM
Depends...who we play, how we play, where we play, etc.  Crapshoot.

I wonder if the average Athletic Director feels that way.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: MU82 on September 14, 2019, 06:49:38 PM
I never said anything about "biggest victories".

I was merely pointing out those who stated wojos recruiting would suffer as a result of the Hauser transfer doesn't appear to be the reality of the current situation.

Isn't that a positive for the program?

This is where I'm at, because I was quite concerned at the time. I am now back to cautiously optimistic.

The next 6-7 months, both on the recruiting trail and on the court, will tell us a ton about where Wojo's program stands after Hausershima.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: jesmu84 on September 14, 2019, 07:14:33 PM
This is where I'm at, because I was quite concerned at the time. I am now back to cautiously optimistic.

The next 6-7 months, both on the recruiting trail and on the court, will tell us a ton about where Wojo's program stands after Hausershima.

Agreed on the second paragraph
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 14, 2019, 08:13:10 PM
Depends...who we play, how we play, where we play, etc.  Crapshoot.

Can't control who or where you play, only how you play. On a 1-10 scale how would you rate our play vs South Carolina and Murray State. Just numbers, please - no excuses or editorializing.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: jonny09 on September 14, 2019, 08:43:07 PM
Can't control who or where you play, only how you play. On a 1-10 scale how would you rate our play vs South Carolina and Murray State. Just numbers, please - no excuses or editorializing.

 
3 and 1
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Small Orange Soda on September 14, 2019, 08:46:06 PM
I never said anything about "biggest victories".

I was merely pointing out those who stated wojos recruiting would suffer as a result of the Hauser transfer doesn't appear to be the reality of the current situation.

Isn't that a positive for the program?

I agree, it is a positive thing.  We know the Hauser situation won't be torpedoing the recruiting class.  I just don't get the gloating about it like it's proof that Wojo is doing a good job.  He's still 0fer in the tourney.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 14, 2019, 08:58:07 PM
Can't control who or where you play, only how you play. On a 1-10 scale how would you rate our play vs South Carolina and Murray State. Just numbers, please - no excuses or editorializing.

Carolina. 7.  Game was tied I think with under 10 min to play.  S.C. went on to Final Four

Murray State...2.  Terrible matchup

How would you rate HOF coach’s team performance Duke against Mercer or Lehigh?  And countless examples.  No excuses or editorializing
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 14, 2019, 09:00:39 PM
I wonder if the average Athletic Director feels that way.

Well we know how how many of the elite coaches feel

Jay Wright
Mark Few
Tom Izzo
Roy Williams
Tony Bennett

Etc etc etc. All said the same thing.  They have to coach in it, not The average AD’s. 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Small Orange Soda on September 14, 2019, 09:12:01 PM
Well we know how how many of the elite coaches feel

Jay Wright
Mark Few
Tom Izzo
Roy Williams
Tony Bennett

Etc etc etc. All said the same thing.  They have to coach in it, not The average AD’s.

Right.  But they don't get to decide how their performance is judged by the higher ups. I'd imagine March is a relevant topic in year end assessments and not just something dismissed as a crapshoot.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: We R Final Four on September 14, 2019, 09:13:51 PM
Same old Chicos....never ends.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 14, 2019, 09:21:28 PM
Same old Chicos....never ends.

Don’t forget the Badger falsifications by you....never ends
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 14, 2019, 09:23:36 PM
Right.  But they don't get to decide how their performance is judged by the higher ups. I'd imagine March is a relevant topic in year end assessments and not just something dismissed as a crapshoot.

If it happens for too long, sure.  Look, those of you outraged and pissed, drop your tickets, protest, don’t attend...show them who is boss so that we get Tony Bennett to quit UVA and come to MU.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: We R Final Four on September 14, 2019, 09:35:19 PM
Don’t forget the Badger falsifications by you....never ends
There’s the victim we’ve all come to know. Like clockwork.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Small Orange Soda on September 14, 2019, 09:42:26 PM
If it happens for too long, sure.  Look, those of you outraged and pissed, drop your tickets, protest, don’t attend...show them who is boss so that we get Tony Bennett to quit UVA and come to MU.

Well, I'm not outraged or pissed.  I just think getting blown out in both NCAA tournament games is a valid criticism.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: jesmu84 on September 14, 2019, 09:56:22 PM
I agree, it is a positive thing.  We know the Hauser situation won't be torpedoing the recruiting class.  I just don't get the gloating about it like it's proof that Wojo is doing a good job.  He's still 0fer in the tourney.

Who is gloating?

Again. Some posters were concerned that with the Hauser's leaving, recruiting would be effected. So far, that hasn't been proven to be true.

That's all I was trying to say.

Glad you agree with me.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on September 14, 2019, 10:15:43 PM
Ha ya think some are pissed he has landed two top 75 kids? Those wishing him to fail and only see the negatives?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Herman Cain on September 14, 2019, 10:20:04 PM
I have consistently believed that our team this year will be more athletic and benefit from better team chemistry.

I believe the first benefit we are seeing of the team chemistry is the positive trends in recruiting . Two solid commitments and in the running on several more top prospects . Recruits are always highly attuned to the chemistry issue ,and when it is a good one, that perception really helps the coaching staff sell through message.

I hope MU can fill the next two open spots with two more solid prospects . That would give a nice balance to the roster going forward.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 14, 2019, 11:34:05 PM
Carolina. 7.  Game was tied I think with under 10 min to play.  S.C. went on to Final Four

Murray State...2.  Terrible matchup

How would you rate HOF coach’s team performance Duke against Mercer or Lehigh?  And countless examples.  No excuses or editorializing

LMAO. Game wasn't tied with under 10 minutes left. Last tie was with 16:21 left. We led by 10 with 9:30 left in the 1st half. We scored a token lay up to "cut" the lead to 20 in the waning seconds. In the 29 minutes in between we were outscored 77-45. 7? What's a 30 point loss, a 5? 10 point loss a 9?

Another poster said 3 and 1. Fair. 7 and 2 would embarrass even a card carrying world class Blue and Gold goggled slurper. Please reconsider or turn in your objectivity card.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: CTWarrior on September 15, 2019, 07:59:41 AM
Hall of Fame coaches with Better talent can lose these games, but a young coach with less is inexcusable.....lol.  Jesus H
Well, I suppose everyone would cut him some slack if we had won something in his five years.  To me in five years the list of Wojo's highlights is a win over number 1 Villanova at home and... I got nothing else.  We've made two NCAAs in his 5 years, nothing special even considering what we were when he arrived, and we were not competitive once we got there. No top 25 finishes for a six year stretch, 5 on his watch.  Since Al got here, the only other stretch where that happened was the Majerus/Dukiet dark days.  He has been building toward 2018-19 and 2019-20 since he got here.  The first of those two seasons began will lots of promise but ended in a total collapse.  Season 2 has begun with his second and third best players leaving the program so once again expectations are lowered.  For goodness sake, you have the optimistic people on the board hoping we can get an NCAA tournament win in year 6, with a probably step back for a year or two following that!  We are Marquette.  That is not good.  He's got to start winning more to win people over.  Not sure why that is hard for people to understand.

And stop using the occasional failures of great coaches to excuse him.  You darn well know you can't compare him to great coaches because guys with a great track record earn the benefit of the doubt when a season or game goes sideways.

I'm not even a Wojo hater.  I still hold out hope he can do something great here.  Just saying I get the frustration with him.

To me the best you can say about Wojo is that the jury is still out or there is still potential.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on September 15, 2019, 08:06:09 AM
Well, I suppose everyone would cut him some slack if we had won something in his five years.  To me in five years the list of Wojo's highlights is a win over number 1 Villanova at home and... I got nothing else.  We've made two NCAAs in his 5 years, nothing special even considering what we were when he arrived, and we were not competitive once we got there. No top 25 finishes for a six year stretch, 5 on his watch.  Since Al got here, the only other stretch where that happened was the Majerus/Dukiet dark days.  He has been building toward 2018-19 and 2019-20 since he got here.  The first of those two seasons began will lots of promise but ended in a total collapse.  Season 2 has begun with his second and third best players leaving the program so once again expectations are lowered.  For goodness sake, you have the optimistic people on the board hoping we can get an NCAA tournament win in year 6, with a probably step back for a year or two following that!  We are Marquette.  That is not good.  He's got to start winning more to win people over.  Not sure why that is hard for people to understand.

And stop using the occasional failures of great coaches to excuse him.  You darn well know you can't compare him to great coaches because guys with a great track record earn the benefit of the doubt when a season or game goes sideways.

I'm not even a Wojo hater.  I still hold out hope he can do something great here.  Just saying I get the frustration with him.

To me the best you can say about Wojo is that the jury is still out or there is still potential.


Well stated.  Even the people labelled as Wojo supporters here usually agree that the jury is still out on the guy.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: tower912 on September 15, 2019, 08:21:12 AM
Agreed.   I am a 'supporter', but I have said multiple times that I have yet to see him make a team more than the sum of it's parts.
But the point of this is that many thought that the Hausers were the beginning of the end.  Here we are 5 months later, Jayce transfers in, Symir reclassifies, and two top 100 recruits for '20.   The program hasn't shut down.  Wojo is still landing decent recruits.   It isn't all doom and gloom. 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on September 15, 2019, 08:31:58 AM
And my fear is that Wojo will always kind of be what he has shown.  A good recruiter.  An OK bench coach.  We'll get into NCAA tournaments but never really make a run.  Like Crean without the Final Four run. 

Which means he likely doesn't get fired and doesn't get poached.  He may get tired and want to move on, but who knows if that will happen.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Herman Cain on September 15, 2019, 08:45:58 AM
And my fear is that Wojo will always kind of be what he has shown.  A good recruiter.  An OK bench coach.  We'll get into NCAA tournaments but never really make a run.  Like Crean without the Final Four run. 

Which means he likely doesn't get fired and doesn't get poached.  He may get tired and want to move on, but who knows if that will happen.
Will happen when a decent paying power 5 job opens.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on September 15, 2019, 08:56:09 AM
Meanwhile, MU is ranked #22...
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: The Lens on September 15, 2019, 09:03:23 AM
I never thought the Hausers would affect recruiting.  Recruits are so self absorbed that stuff like that doesn’t phase them.

And so Wojo with lots of PT to sell got two Top 100 players.  Wow. Shocker.

Same as KO
Same as TC
Same as Buzz

Marquette always recruits well when there’s PT.

Can we win a tournament game?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: tower912 on September 15, 2019, 09:04:33 AM
And my fear is that Wojo will always kind of be what he has shown.  A good recruiter.  An OK bench coach.  We'll get into NCAA tournaments but never really make a run.  Like Crean without the Final Four run. 

Which means he likely doesn't get fired and doesn't get poached.  He may get tired and want to move on, but who knows if that will happen.
Crean without the final four run is a really good comparison and my fear also.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: WhiteTrash on September 15, 2019, 09:33:39 AM
Which means he likely doesn't get fired and doesn't get poached.  He may get tired and want to move on, but who knows if that will happen.
Unless, as with most everything, the economics change. If revenues and donations fall off MU will make the change.

I mean after a reasonable 10 year window to begin rebuilding the program, until then "wins no matta'. ;)
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 15, 2019, 09:55:56 AM
LMAO. Game wasn't tied with under 10 minutes left. Last tie was with 16:21 left. We led by 10 with 9:30 left in the 1st half. We scored a token lay up to "cut" the lead to 20 in the waning seconds. In the 29 minutes in between we were outscored 77-45. 7? What's a 30 point loss, a 5? 10 point loss a 9?

Another poster said 3 and 1. Fair. 7 and 2 would embarrass even a card carrying world class Blue and Gold goggled slurper. Please reconsider or turn in your objectivity card.

My apologies, we were down 1 point and not tied with 10 minutes to go.  Sorry I was off by 1 point.  I noticed you also didn’t bother to mention they went to the Final Four.  So Wojo was toe to toe the first 30 minutes...and then he forgot to coach the last 10?  GMAFB. 

It was a two possession game with under 7 minutes to play.

We ran out of gas, couldn’t hit shots, they were a fantastic defensive team that grinded us down as they did their next three opponents. I was fortunate enough to be at the Final Four that year...that team just missed playing for the title.

I noticed you refused to answer my question when I gave you the courtesy of answering yours.

I don’t care about your objectivity bs, especially with your bromance love affairs with certain coaches and your hypocritical double standards....your objectivity went out the door years ago.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 15, 2019, 09:59:31 AM
Well, I suppose everyone would cut him some slack if we had won something in his five years.  To me in five years the list of Wojo's highlights is a win over number 1 Villanova at home and... I got nothing else.  We've made two NCAAs in his 5 years, nothing special even considering what we were when he arrived, and we were not competitive once we got there. No top 25 finishes for a six year stretch, 5 on his watch.  Since Al got here, the only other stretch where that happened was the Majerus/Dukiet dark days.  He has been building toward 2018-19 and 2019-20 since he got here.  The first of those two seasons began will lots of promise but ended in a total collapse.  Season 2 has begun with his second and third best players leaving the program so once again expectations are lowered.  For goodness sake, you have the optimistic people on the board hoping we can get an NCAA tournament win in year 6, with a probably step back for a year or two following that!  We are Marquette.  That is not good.  He's got to start winning more to win people over.  Not sure why that is hard for people to understand.

And stop using the occasional failures of great coaches to excuse him.  You darn well know you can't compare him to great coaches because guys with a great track record earn the benefit of the doubt when a season or game goes sideways.

I'm not even a Wojo hater.  I still hold out hope he can do something great here.  Just saying I get the frustration with him.

To me the best you can say about Wojo is that the jury is still out or there is still potential.

I will never understand this logic.  Ever.  A lot of people throw this one around. 

Because someone did something good 4 years earlier, that is a free pass for today and excuses the present day loss.  Uhm, ok.

End of the day, Buzz, Al, Coach K, Izzo, etc, etc, etc have all lost games in the tournament they shouldn’t have, sometimes blown out and EVERY time they had better talent than Wojo did and they are better coaches, more experienced.

To sum it up, those guys....better coaches, better talent but it is ok to lose to teams they shouldn’t have because somebody did something earlier in their career at same school.  Meanwhile, the current guy with less talent, less coaching acumen is obliterated for losing despite the talent and coaching gap.

The lack of logic is amazing.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: cheebs09 on September 15, 2019, 10:37:17 AM
I will never understand this logic.  Ever.  A lot of people throw this one around. 

Because someone did something good 4 years earlier, that is a free pass for today and excuses the present day loss.  Uhm, ok.

End of the day, Buzz, Al, Coach K, Izzo, etc, etc, etc have all lost games in the tournament they shouldn’t have, sometimes blown out and EVERY time they had better talent than Wojo did and they are better coaches, more experienced.

To sum it up, those guys....better coaches, better talent but it is ok to lose to teams they shouldn’t have because somebody did something earlier in their career at same school.  Meanwhile, the current guy with less talent, less coaching acumen is obliterated for losing despite the talent and coaching gap.

The lack of logic is amazing.

I don’t think the games in a vacuum are the problem. It’s just a part of the overall picture that has us nervous. The optimists (me included) have been pointing to Markus’ junior and senior year as the payoff for some growing pains.  Right now all we have to show for it is a blowout in the tournament and losing two starters.

I really hope he’s as successful as the coach’s you’ve listed. However, my worry is unless we get a generational talent, we are going to be average, sort of like Crean outside of 03. You could argue we already have that talent in Markus, so there should be some pressure on this year to deliver a run.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Small Orange Soda on September 15, 2019, 10:58:16 AM
I will never understand this logic.  Ever.  A lot of people throw this one around. 

Because someone did something good 4 years earlier, that is a free pass for today and excuses the present day loss.  Uhm, ok.

End of the day, Buzz, Al, Coach K, Izzo, etc, etc, etc have all lost games in the tournament they shouldn’t have, sometimes blown out and EVERY time they had better talent than Wojo did and they are better coaches, more experienced.

To sum it up, those guys....better coaches, better talent but it is ok to lose to teams they shouldn’t have because somebody did something earlier in their career at same school.  Meanwhile, the current guy with less talent, less coaching acumen is obliterated for losing despite the talent and coaching gap.

The lack of logic is amazing.

The only comparisons between Wojo and the successful coaches you mentioned that ever gets brought up are their failures.  It's not the ringing endorsement you think it is.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: JakeBarnes on September 15, 2019, 11:02:57 AM
Just to avoid reading 5 pages of things ive missed: did the worm turn back?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: WhiteTrash on September 15, 2019, 11:05:14 AM
Meanwhile, the current guy with less talent, less coaching acumen is obliterated for losing despite the talent and coaching gap.

This probably sums up the issues with Wojo best. Very harsh but accurate. Thank you.

Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on September 15, 2019, 11:09:02 AM
Will happen when a decent paying power 5 job opens.


I don't know what "decent" program would be satisfied with Wojo AND be attractive to him.  Maybe Wake Forest if they dump Manning?  But it's not a very long list IMO.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 15, 2019, 11:44:08 AM
This probably sums up the issues with Wojo best. Very harsh but accurate. Thank you.

Yup, he’s young and didn’t get to cut his teeth on a mid major like Wright, K, McGuire, etc.  He’s getting better.....sorry you are not noticing it despite every unbiased data source proving that out.

Thank you
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: WhiteTrash on September 15, 2019, 01:22:02 PM
Yup, he’s young and didn’t get to cut his teeth on a mid major like Wright, K, McGuire, etc.  He’s getting better.....sorry you are not noticing it despite every unbiased data source proving that out.

Thank you
Your words not mine.
I'll refrain from agreeing with you in the future.

ps - I never said anything about him getting better. 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: jonny09 on September 15, 2019, 01:25:17 PM
Yup, he’s young and didn’t get to cut his teeth on a mid major like Wright, K, McGuire, etc.  He’s getting better.....sorry you are not noticing it despite every unbiased data source proving that out.

Thank you

Fake news.  Shocking that it’s coming from a guy who knows nothing about sports.  Or where people can watch them
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Silent Verbal on September 15, 2019, 01:29:15 PM
Yup, he’s young and didn’t get to cut his teeth on a mid major like Wright, K, McGuire, etc.  He’s getting better.....sorry you are not noticing it despite every unbiased data source proving that out.

Thank you

He didn’t “get” to cut his teeth at a mid major?  That was his choice.  It’s been said (maybe even by Wojo himself, IIRC) that he could’ve had the Dayton job, and possibly others.  He chose to stay at Duke and Coach K’s fiefdom until a big job like MU opened.  With a big job comes big expectations.  It was also MU’s choice to hire a guy with no prior experience running his own program, who had only ever been around one program and that program’s very specific way of doing things.  The fact that Wojo never coached at another school isn’t an excuse.  At a place like Marquette, you’re expected to hit the ground running, regardless of experience level.

Bottom line, the pressure will be on Wojo to win an NCAA tournament game this year.  That’s how casual fans measure success.  Hell, it’s how rabid fans ultimately measure success, too.  The optics of him being here six years with zero NCAA wins and facing another retooling period post-Markus will not be great. 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 15, 2019, 01:32:04 PM
Im sure there's "pressure" on Wojo to win an ncaa game. But whether or not he does has nothing to do with him getting fired.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Silent Verbal on September 15, 2019, 01:41:18 PM
Im sure there's "pressure" on Wojo to win an ncaa game. But whether or not he does has nothing to do with him getting fired.

Where did I say anything about him getting fired?  I remember Buzz said something about, “I’ll be here as long as they’ll have me.”  Wojo?  He’ll be here as long he’ll have us.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 15, 2019, 01:45:09 PM
Where did I say anything about him getting fired?  I remember Buzz said something about, “I’ll be here as long as they’ll have me.”  Wojo?  He’ll be here as long he’ll have us.

Just adding to the conversation
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Small Orange Soda on September 15, 2019, 02:07:16 PM
Im sure there's "pressure" on Wojo to win an ncaa game. But whether or not he does has nothing to do with him getting fired.

I'd be very surprised if Wojo were ever fired after making the tournament.  But he needs to have some March success before he misses his next tourney or that'll probably be it for him.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 15, 2019, 02:08:39 PM
Your words not mine.
I'll refrain from agreeing with you in the future.

ps - I never said anything about him getting better.

My words, without context....with context, he continues to get better.  And for some reason we continue to have double standards here....it is ok for a HOF coach with a great team to lose in the first round because of what he did years earlier, but a coach still on the come with lesser talent it is inexcusable.

Did I miss anything?

Thank you
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 15, 2019, 02:09:46 PM

Fake news.  Shocking that it’s coming from a guy who knows nothing about sports.  Or where people can watch them

Nothing fake about what I said....please point out what is....getting paid the last 25 years in the sports industry....someone thinks I know a thing or two.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 15, 2019, 02:12:22 PM
He didn’t “get” to cut his teeth at a mid major?  That was his choice.  It’s been said (maybe even by Wojo himself, IIRC) that he could’ve had the Dayton job, and possibly others.  He chose to stay at Duke and Coach K’s fiefdom until a big job like MU opened.  With a big job comes big expectations.  It was also MU’s choice to hire a guy with no prior experience running his own program, who had only ever been around one program and that program’s very specific way of doing things.  The fact that Wojo never coached at another school isn’t an excuse.  At a place like Marquette, you’re expected to hit the ground running, regardless of experience level.

Bottom line, the pressure will be on Wojo to win an NCAA tournament game this year.  That’s how casual fans measure success.  Hell, it’s how rabid fans ultimately measure success, too.  The optics of him being here six years with zero NCAA wins and facing another retooling period post-Markus will not be great.

Whether his choice or not, that is the reality of the situation.

You cannot simply pretend to inject experience as a head coach by snapping your fingers....the real world doesn’t work like that.  And since we cannot get an existing high end D1 coach to come here, it is what we will continue to go through...on the job training.

I’m just glad he continues to get better. I’m sorry some of your don’t realize this and put your entire fandom on one game a year...suit yourself.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: cheebs09 on September 15, 2019, 02:17:49 PM
My words, without context....with context, he continues to get better.  And for some reason we continue to have double standards here....it is ok for a HOF coach with a great team to lose in the first round because of what he did years earlier, but a coach still on the come with lesser talent it is inexcusable.

Did I miss anything?

Thank you

Because that’s the high watermark so far. That’s what worries people. We collapsed at the end of the year and were a no-show in the tournament. If he goes onto have the success of Wright or Coach K, no one is going to care about how we did against SC or Murray State. However, the worry is that he may not grow into more than a decent coach. His ceiling might be a bubble team with a decent year whenever we have a bunch of experience.

Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 15, 2019, 02:42:56 PM
Because that’s the high watermark so far. That’s what worries people. We collapsed at the end of the year and were a no-show in the tournament. If he goes onto have the success of Wright or Coach K, no one is going to care about how we did against SC or Murray State. However, the worry is that he may not grow into more than a decent coach. His ceiling might be a bubble team with a decent year whenever we have a bunch of experience.

Correct, none of us can predict the future or how he will turn out. 

My bigger worry is people kick him to the curb and he goes on to do great things elsewhere because our patience is tied to one game a year and not the wholistic picture
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: MU82 on September 15, 2019, 02:57:50 PM
Well, I suppose everyone would cut him some slack if we had won something in his five years.  To me in five years the list of Wojo's highlights is a win over number 1 Villanova at home and... I got nothing else.  We've made two NCAAs in his 5 years, nothing special even considering what we were when he arrived, and we were not competitive once we got there. No top 25 finishes for a six year stretch, 5 on his watch.  Since Al got here, the only other stretch where that happened was the Majerus/Dukiet dark days.  He has been building toward 2018-19 and 2019-20 since he got here.  The first of those two seasons began will lots of promise but ended in a total collapse.  Season 2 has begun with his second and third best players leaving the program so once again expectations are lowered.  For goodness sake, you have the optimistic people on the board hoping we can get an NCAA tournament win in year 6, with a probably step back for a year or two following that!  We are Marquette.  That is not good.  He's got to start winning more to win people over.  Not sure why that is hard for people to understand.

And stop using the occasional failures of great coaches to excuse him.  You darn well know you can't compare him to great coaches because guys with a great track record earn the benefit of the doubt when a season or game goes sideways.

I'm not even a Wojo hater.  I still hold out hope he can do something great here.  Just saying I get the frustration with him.

To me the best you can say about Wojo is that the jury is still out or there is still potential.

This is a very reasonable take, CTW. I especially like the last two paragraphs.

I am an optimist and generally have been bullish on Wojo, as much as or more than most Scoopers. However, I do think it is fair for a fan base to not be expected to be patient forever.

I have been one who has compared Wojo's relative success to that of K, Wright, etc, at similar stages of their careers. But the statute of limitations runs out on that line of reasoning, too. Are we there yet? Not sure, but we have to be getting close. In Year 5 at Duke, K was winning NCAA tourney games; in Year 6, he was 37-3 and in the title game. In Year 5 at Nova, Wright was in the Elite 8. As another Scooper said, it was Wojo's choice not to cut his teeth at smaller schools as K and Wright did and choosing to remain an assistant for 15 years; he doesn't get "credit" for that choice.

In Year 5 for Wojo, MU collapsed down the stretch and lost an NCAA game to a mid-major by 100 points. Wait ... make that 102 ... Murray State just scored again. Then, Hausershima happened; even most of those who distribute "blame" equally, or put somewhat more on the Hausers, have to admit it was a bad look.

It certainly was the capper on a very, very bad 6 weeks in modern-day Marquette basketball history.

I am in no way saying Wojo should be fired for that wretched 6 weeks, and I am heartened that Hausershima doesn't seem to have hurt recruiting, as I worried it might. Nevertheless, it is difficult for this optimist to be quite as bullish on Wojo.

It's not unreasonable to want to see more success, IMHO, and to see it sooner than later.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 15, 2019, 03:27:00 PM
This is a very reasonable take, CTW. I especially like the last two paragraphs.

I am an optimist and generally have been bullish on Wojo, as much as or more than most Scoopers. However, I do think it is fair for a fan base to not be expected to be patient forever.

I have been one who has compared Wojo's relative success to that of K, Wright, etc, at similar stages of their careers. But the statute of limitations runs out on that line of reasoning, too. Are we there yet? Not sure, but we have to be getting close. In Year 5 at Duke, K was winning NCAA tourney games; in Year 6, he was 37-3 and in the title game. In Year 5 at Nova, Wright was in the Elite 8. As another Scooper said, it was Wojo's choice not to cut his teeth at smaller schools as K and Wright did and choosing to remain an assistant for 15 years; he doesn't get "credit" for that choice.

In Year 5 for Wojo, MU collapsed down the stretch and lost an NCAA game to a mid-major by 100 points. Wait ... make that 102 ... Murray State just scored again. Then, Hausershima happened; even most of those who distribute "blame" equally, or put somewhat more on the Hausers, have to admit it was a bad look.

It certainly was the capper on a very, very bad 6 weeks in modern-day Marquette basketball history.

I am in no way saying Wojo should be fired for that wretched 6 weeks, and I am heartened that Hausershima doesn't seem to have hurt recruiting, as I worried it might. Nevertheless, it is difficult for this optimist to be quite as bullish on Wojo.

It's not unreasonable to want to see more success, IMHO, and to see it sooner than later.

6 weeks?  It was three weeks. The losing streak started Feb 27th and ended March 21st, with a win in there again St John’s and a malpractice officiating event against Seton Hall.  Or are you including the decision to transfer?

My guess and opinion shared by some (not all) close to this....even if we had won a few games in the tournament, Joey was gone.  Sam, who knows.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: WhiteTrash on September 15, 2019, 03:39:35 PM
Correct, none of us can predict the future or how he will turn out. 

My bigger worry is people kick him to the curb and he goes on to do great things elsewhere because our patience is tied to one game a year and not the wholistic picture
The uphill battle you are fighting for Wojo is a result of fans' "wholistic picture" of his time at MU.

Look, you see wonderful progress during his tenure. A lot see a sub-par performance for MU's standards. The administration sees satisfactory progress hence he was given a modest extension (that I agreed with).

I think it is equally disingenuous to ignore the failures, and the successes he has had.

 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 15, 2019, 03:43:49 PM
My apologies, we were down 1 point and not tied with 10 minutes to go.  Sorry I was off by 1 point.  I noticed you also didn’t bother to mention they went to the Final Four.  So Wojo was toe to toe the first 30 minutes...and then he forgot to coach the last 10?  GMAFB. 

It was a two possession game with under 7 minutes to play.

We ran out of gas, couldn’t hit shots, they were a fantastic defensive team that grinded us down as they did their next three opponents. I was fortunate enough to be at the Final Four that year...that team just missed playing for the title.

I noticed you refused to answer my question when I gave you the courtesy of answering yours.


You remember a different game than the one played. We were down 5 with 10 minutes to play. Cut it to 3 with 9:29 left, back to 5 with 9:10 left and we never got closer. Down 11 with 5:30 left and the rout was on. The game was a pick em. We lost by 20. How that translates into a solidly better than average performance (7 out of 10) defies reality. You know that.

Sorry I didn't answer your ? - what was it?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: MU82 on September 15, 2019, 04:15:24 PM
6 weeks?  It was three weeks. The losing streak started Feb 27th and ended March 21st, with a win in there again St John’s and a malpractice officiating event against Seton Hall.  Or are you including the decision to transfer?

My guess and opinion shared by some (not all) close to this....even if we had won a few games in the tournament, Joey was gone.  Sam, who knows.

Normally, I'd ignore the troll, but I do want to make sure the record is straight as the guy who argues just for the sake of arguing tries to "catch" me on something.

Yes, I was including the transfer, and I thought I had made it clear in my post, where my 6 weeks reference clearly was after my Hausershima reference.

2/27 Nova loss
3/3 Crei loss
3/6 SH loss
3/9 GT loss
3/14 StJ win
3/15 SH loss
3/21 MurrSt utter humiliation
4/15 Hausershima

It actually was a miserable 6 weeks, 5 days -- featuring 6 losses in 7 games, including an embarrassing annihilation in the NCAA tournament and then the transfer of one very good and one potentially very good player.

Again, IMHO, the worst stretch for MU hoops in many a year -- especially given all the program had going for it on 2/27 at 9 p.m.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 15, 2019, 04:31:37 PM
MU82, that wasn’t hard was it?  And no, you don’t ignore me....I occupy a space in your brain...you may choose not to respond, but you don’t ignore....it is not in your nature.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 15, 2019, 04:59:31 PM
You remember a different game than the one played. We were down 5 with 10 minutes to play. Cut it to 3 with 9:29 left, back to 5 with 9:10 left and we never got closer. Down 11 with 5:30 left and the rout was on. The game was a pick em. We lost by 20. How that translates into a solidly better than average performance (7 out of 10) defies reality. You know that.

Sorry I didn't answer your ? - what was it?

I don’t think I remember a different game.

At halftime we were leading 40 to 39.  I would call that in the game.
We trailed by 1 point until 10:43 remaining when we went down 3.
With 7:15 left it was a two possession game, down by 5 points.
It remained a two possession deficit under 7 minutes.

As I stated, from there the wheels came off.  Tired, not shooting well, etc.  We made no baskets for the next five plus minutes....Markus, Katlin, Luke, Andrew, Jajuan, etc, all missed.  Throw in turnovers by Duane, Andrew, Markus, Luke, and a parade of fouls....and it is over...we were very much in that game until the 6 minute and change mark, when we then proceeded to miss almost all of our shots, turn the ball over, foul like crazy....the first 34 minutes that wasn’t the case...perhaps that is when Wojo wasn’t coaching.

South Carolina finished 6th in the final poll.  Beating Marquette, Duke, Baylor, Florida, and just missing out on Gonzaga.  They got hot at the right time, stars aligned properly for them. 

My question....i think you can go back and look....but had to do with examples of the performances of coaches like K, etc that lost to Lehigh, Mercer, etc...in those games, what would you rate their performances? 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: WhiteTrash on September 15, 2019, 05:14:08 PM
South Carolina finished 6th in the final poll.  Beating Marquette, Duke, Baylor, Florida, and just missing out on Gonzaga.  They got hot at the right time, stars aligned properly for them. 
Doesn't matter what SC did in the tournament. It's a crap shoot.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 15, 2019, 05:23:47 PM
The uphill battle you are fighting for Wojo is a result of fans' "wholistic picture" of his time at MU.

Look, you see wonderful progress during his tenure. A lot see a sub-par performance for MU's standards. The administration sees satisfactory progress hence he was given a modest extension (that I agreed with).

I think it is equally disingenuous to ignore the failures, and the successes he has had.

 

Who is ignoring the failures?  I look at what he inherited, who he is allowed to recruit, this version of the Big East vs the old one, and are his players model citizens, etc.  Overall progress, very good and trajectory year over year has been right even with last year’s finish.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: WhiteTrash on September 15, 2019, 05:40:10 PM
Who is ignoring the failures?  I look at what he inherited, who he is allowed to recruit, this version of the Big East vs the old one, and are his players model citizens, etc.  Overall progress, very good and trajectory year over year has been right even with last year’s finish.
I'd guess other's perception of your view on Wojo is skewed because you like to defend him. Similarly you may view those with criticisms of him as irrational 'haters' of Wojo. JMO but I think most people here are actually much closer to having the same feelings on Wojo than how it plays out on a message board.

Can you explain the comments on the conference above? I know the new BigEast is not as good as the old BigEast (which was the best conference ever), but the BigEast is better most years than say the Big10 and I've never heard anyone make excuses for Izzo because he coaches in the Big10. 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: jonny09 on September 15, 2019, 05:42:05 PM
Nothing fake about what I said....please point out what is....getting paid the last 25 years in the sports industry....someone thinks I know a thing or two.

Most likely people who are hearing impaired.  Cuz nobody on this board thinks you know anything.  And that includes sports.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: MU82 on September 15, 2019, 05:44:07 PM
MU82, that wasn’t hard was it?  And no, you don’t ignore me....I occupy a space in your brain...you may choose not to respond, but you don’t ignore....it is not in your nature.

I accept your apology.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Herman Cain on September 15, 2019, 06:19:24 PM

I don't know what "decent" program would be satisfied with Wojo AND be attractive to him.  Maybe Wake Forest if they dump Manning?  But it's not a very long list IMO.
I think it is longer than you would think.
1. Any top half of the Big Ten School is a no brainer.
2. Probably 13/15 of the ACC
3. Pretty much all of the Big 12
4. Most of the SEC
5. about 40 percent of the Pac 12



Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: WhiteTrash on September 15, 2019, 06:37:00 PM
I think it is longer than you would think.
1. Any top half of the Big Ten School is a no brainer.
2. Probably 13/15 of the ACC
3. Pretty much all of the Big 12
4. Most of the SEC
5. about 40 percent of the Pac 12
I think you read his statement incorrectly.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: 🏀 on September 15, 2019, 06:41:41 PM
I remember Joey Hauser being absolute trash and pouting when Markus tried to do anything to bring Marquette back in the game.


Sam Hauser likewise had his doors absolutely blown off.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: tower912 on September 15, 2019, 06:43:36 PM
I remember Joey Hauser.....pouting
That started in November.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: 🏀 on September 15, 2019, 06:44:41 PM
That started in November.

Correct.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on September 15, 2019, 06:55:22 PM
I think it is longer than you would think.
1. Any top half of the Big Ten School is a no brainer.
2. Probably 13/15 of the ACC
3. Pretty much all of the Big 12
4. Most of the SEC
5. about 40 percent of the Pac 12

What school in the top half of the Big Ten would take Wojo?  13/15 in the ACC?  You think Louisville would take him?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Herman Cain on September 15, 2019, 07:29:17 PM
What school in the top half of the Big Ten would take Wojo?  13/15 in the ACC?  You think Louisville would take him?
I am saying Wojo would leave for the first good paying Power 5 job actually offered.  So  I am just responding to the second clause of your question, with the list of those schools he would seriously look at if money was right and he actually got an offer, not saying he would get an offer.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on September 15, 2019, 07:38:53 PM
Well that's kind of my point.  Sure he would leave for some schools.  Sure some schools would want him.  But I don't think there are many schools in those overlapping circles.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 15, 2019, 07:57:05 PM
Most likely people who are hearing impaired.  Cuz nobody on this board thinks you know anything.  And that includes sports.

Just people that like to make money and deal honorably with teams and players.  All have excellent hearing

Nobody anything always forever....did I miss any from you?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: We R Final Four on September 15, 2019, 07:57:32 PM
Normally, I'd ignore the troll, but I do want to make sure the record is straight as the guy who argues just for the sake of arguing tries to "catch" me on something.

Yes, I was including the transfer, and I thought I had made it clear in my post, where my 6 weeks reference clearly was after my Hausershima reference.

2/27 Nova loss
3/3 Crei loss
3/6 SH loss
3/9 GT loss
3/14 StJ win
3/15 SH loss
3/21 MurrSt utter humiliation
4/15 Hausershima

It actually was a miserable 6 weeks, 5 days -- featuring 6 losses in 7 games, including an embarrassing annihilation in the NCAA tournament and then the transfer of one very good and one potentially very good player.

Again, IMHO, the worst stretch for MU hoops in many a year -- especially given all the program had going for it on 2/27 at 9 p.m.
82–I not quite sure you understand the ignore function. When implemented....that person is on ignore and you don’t see their post or in Chico’s case....thousands of agenda promoting posts on the same God. Damn. Topic.
That capital G was for you guru!
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 15, 2019, 07:58:16 PM
I don’t think I remember a different game.

At halftime we were leading 40 to 39.  I would call that in the game.
We trailed by 1 point until 10:43 remaining when we went down 3.
With 7:15 left it was a two possession game, down by 5 points.
It remained a two possession deficit under 7 minutes.

As I stated, from there the wheels came off.  Tired, not shooting well, etc.  We made no baskets for the next five plus minutes....Markus, Katlin, Luke, Andrew, Jajuan, etc, all missed.  Throw in turnovers by Duane, Andrew, Markus, Luke, and a parade of fouls....and it is over...we were very much in that game until the 6 minute and change mark, when we then proceeded to miss almost all of our shots, turn the ball over, foul like crazy....the first 34 minutes that wasn’t the case...perhaps that is when Wojo wasn’t coaching.

South Carolina finished 6th in the final poll.  Beating Marquette, Duke, Baylor, Florida, and just missing out on Gonzaga.  They got hot at the right time, stars aligned properly for them. 

My question....i think you can go back and look....but had to do with examples of the performances of coaches like K, etc that lost to Lehigh, Mercer, etc...in those games, what would you rate their performances?

1. You originally said we were tied with 10 minutes to play. Amended that to down 1 with 10 minutes to play. Truth? We were down 5 with 10 minutes to play.

2. You say we got "tired". Agree 100%. We also looked exhausted in the second half vs. Murray St. last year. But tired in a first round NCAA game in March? Wow. Who takes the blame/responsibility for that?

3. I'd give K a "1" for his team's performance vs Lehigh. IOW, an "F". Every coach has them. But (making up numbers, to be sure) if you take 40 tests and have 15 "A's", 12 "B's", 8 "C's", 3 "D's" and 2 "F's" you have a solid average. If you've taken 2 tests and received 2 "F's" you are flunking.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 15, 2019, 07:58:56 PM
I accept your apology.

Like I said, you cannot ignore
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 15, 2019, 08:58:10 PM
He didn’t “get” to cut his teeth at a mid major?  That was his choice.  It’s been said (maybe even by Wojo himself, IIRC) that he could’ve had the Dayton job, and possibly others.  He chose to stay at Duke and Coach K’s fiefdom until a big job like MU opened.  With a big job comes big expectations.  It was also MU’s choice to hire a guy with no prior experience running his own program, who had only ever been around one program and that program’s very specific way of doing things.  The fact that Wojo never coached at another school isn’t an excuse.  At a place like Marquette, you’re expected to hit the ground running, regardless of experience level.

Bottom line, the pressure will be on Wojo to win an NCAA tournament game this year.  That’s how casual fans measure success.  Hell, it’s how rabid fans ultimately measure success, too.  The optics of him being here six years with zero NCAA wins and facing another retooling period post-Markus will not be great.

Maybe, maybe night.  Bottom line, casual fans don’t get to make the call....not do rabid fans unless they are dropping tickets, not donating, etc.  And then there is that pesky item about who the replacement is...
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 15, 2019, 09:03:30 PM
1. You originally said we were tied with 10 minutes to play. Amended that to down 1 with 10 minutes to play. Truth? We were down 5 with 10 minutes to play.

2. You say we got "tired". Agree 100%. We also looked exhausted in the second half vs. Murray St. last year. But tired in a first round NCAA game in March? Wow. Who takes the blame/responsibility for that.

3. I'd give K a "1" for his team's performance vs Lehigh. IOW, an "F". Every coach has them. But (making up numbers, to be sure) if you take 40 tests and have 15 "A's", 12 "B's", 8 "C's", 3 "D's" and 2 "F's" you have a solid average. If you've taken 2 tests and received 2 "F's" you are flunking.

No, I originally said game was tied with under 10 minutes I THINK.....I wasn’t sure...which is why I said it that way.  I didn’t amend, I simply looked it up...it was down 3 with under 10 to pay and down one with a little over ten to play.  Come on.


As for the grading, that’s fine except your analogy implies tests and we knows tests are done in a given year...which is again back to my point.....apparently we are supposed to give a pass for someone that aced the test in 2015, but if they get an F on it in 2018 it’s ok, because they got that A in 2015.  If HOF coaches can lose to much worse teams then we did and have much better talent, that should be a giant neon light for many people here that anything can happen in the tournament....ESPECIALLY when we don’t have that talent that he does.  ESPECIALLY. 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on September 15, 2019, 09:36:39 PM
Wojo was older than Al, Rick, Crean and Buzz when they started at Marquette.  Remind me what games Al and Buzz lost in the NCAAs "that they shouldn't have" with inferior talent, Chico's? 

This is a big year for Wojo. He has his deepest, most balanced and most athletic roster. MU is ranked #22.Wojo is off to a good start on the recruiting trail. November is a big month for him, maybe his biggest at MU.

Is he going to get the axe?  No. Is he infallible? No
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Silent Verbal on September 15, 2019, 09:38:27 PM
Maybe, maybe night.  Bottom line, casual fans don’t get to make the call....not do rabid fans unless they are dropping tickets, not donating, etc.  And then there is that pesky item about who the replacement is...

That “crapshoot” quote from Roy Williams you have as your signature was from an article written on April 2, 2003.  At the time he said it, he was coaching in his fourth Final Four.  He had also been to four Sweet Sixteens and an Elite Eight.  He’d already had an illustrious and Hall of Fame worthy career.  Perhaps adding some context to that quote would be helpful.  How do you think that same line would’ve gone over had Wojo said it after the Murray State blowout?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Silent Verbal on September 15, 2019, 09:39:01 PM
NM
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 15, 2019, 09:50:11 PM
No, I originally said game was tied with under 10 minutes I THINK.....I wasn’t sure...which is why I said it that way.  I didn’t amend, I simply looked it up...it was down 3 with under 10 to pay and down one with a little over ten to play.  Come on.


As for the grading, that’s fine except your analogy implies tests and we knows tests are done in a given year...which is again back to my point.....apparently we are supposed to give a pass for someone that aced the test in 2015, but if they get an F on it in 2018 it’s ok, because they got that A in 2015.  If HOF coaches can lose to much worse teams then we did and have much better talent, that should be a giant neon light for many people here that anything can happen in the tournament....ESPECIALLY when we don’t have that talent that he does.  ESPECIALLY.

Didn't answer my question. (See #2).

As for talent Pomeroy and Vegas thought we had as much as S Carolina and more than Murray State. we ended up -39. That's an "F" even in one of UNC's fake classes.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 15, 2019, 10:07:08 PM
I'd be very surprised if Wojo were ever fired after making the tournament.  But he needs to have some March success before he misses his next tourney or that'll probably be it for him.

This I could definitely see. Marquette wouldn't be the first program to have a coach plateau too low to endear himself, but too high to fire. Wait til the first bad season and bam, fired.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: rocket surgeon on September 15, 2019, 11:02:42 PM
i'm scrolling thru 9 pages of comments and no has addressed "how the worm can turn"? 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on September 16, 2019, 02:16:13 AM
Well, I suppose everyone would cut him some slack if we had won something in his five years.  To me in five years the list of Wojo's highlights is a win over number 1 Villanova at home and... I got nothing else.  We've made two NCAAs in his 5 years, nothing special even considering what we were when he arrived, and we were not competitive once we got there. No top 25 finishes for a six year stretch, 5 on his watch.  Since Al got here, the only other stretch where that happened was the Majerus/Dukiet dark days.  He has been building toward 2018-19 and 2019-20 since he got here.  The first of those two seasons began will lots of promise but ended in a total collapse.  Season 2 has begun with his second and third best players leaving the program so once again expectations are lowered.  For goodness sake, you have the optimistic people on the board hoping we can get an NCAA tournament win in year 6, with a probably step back for a year or two following that!  We are Marquette.  That is not good.  He's got to start winning more to win people over.  Not sure why that is hard for people to understand.

And stop using the occasional failures of great coaches to excuse him.  You darn well know you can't compare him to great coaches because guys with a great track record earn the benefit of the doubt when a season or game goes sideways.

I'm not even a Wojo hater.  I still hold out hope he can do something great here.  Just saying I get the frustration with him.

To me the best you can say about Wojo is that the jury is still out or there is still potential.

100% agree however, one cannot deny his 2020 recruiting has started off pretty solidly.  Many who said it would be a crash n burn still wont give it props
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: CTWarrior on September 16, 2019, 07:43:15 AM
I will never understand this logic.  Ever.  A lot of people throw this one around. 

Because someone did something good 4 years earlier, that is a free pass for today and excuses the present day loss.  Uhm, ok.

End of the day, Buzz, Al, Coach K, Izzo, etc, etc, etc have all lost games in the tournament they shouldn’t have, sometimes blown out and EVERY time they had better talent than Wojo did and they are better coaches, more experienced.

To sum it up, those guys....better coaches, better talent but it is ok to lose to teams they shouldn’t have because somebody did something earlier in their career at same school.  Meanwhile, the current guy with less talent, less coaching acumen is obliterated for losing despite the talent and coaching gap.

The lack of logic is amazing.
You are basically comparing Wojo's best work to their worst and saying somehow because his best compared with something they did, it is OK.  When you get there always and play 50 NCAA tournament games you are going to have the occasional stinker.  When you get there twice and have a stinker both times, that is not the same thing.  I think any reasonable person would have a lot more doubt about a guy who hasn't proven himself vs. on who has.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: MU82 on September 16, 2019, 07:58:49 AM
Didn't answer my question. (See #2).

As for talent Pomeroy and Vegas thought we had as much as S Carolina and more than Murray State. we ended up -39. That's an "F" even in one of UNC's fake classes.

Hey, leave my esteemed state university alone!

Even though the "classes" were put in place specifically for athletes, and even though hundreds of athletes were steered into them by counselors within the athletic department who have admitted they knew the "classes" were shams, it really wasn't an "athletic issue" because other students were allowed to take the "classes." So the NCAA passed on hitting the school for lack of institutional control. And just recently, when deciding whether or not to put such situations under their jurisdiction in the future -- as the Rice Commission specifically recommended -- the NCAA again passed.

But at least the NCAA is punishing N.C. State, so that'll show UNC!
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: 4everwarriors on September 19, 2019, 12:00:58 PM
Im sure there's "pressure" on Wojo to win an ncaa game. But whether or not he does has nothing to do with him getting fired.



Den ders somethin' fundamentally rong wit how da university looks at men's basketball, aina?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: 4everwarriors on September 19, 2019, 12:02:49 PM
Wood bee grate ta have a gig wear results no matta, hey?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 19, 2019, 12:38:16 PM
Wood bee grate ta have a gig wear results no matta, hey?

Doc

Depends what the results criteria is.

Field competitive team....check
Finish upper division in conf....check
Recruit good great players....check
Drive revenue, tickets.....check
Run a clean program....check
Do well against rivals.....check
Keep program away from embarrassing public issues....check

Literally the only one he hasn’t done is win a NCAA tournament game...he has won several NIT games. 


Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 19, 2019, 12:40:09 PM
You are basically comparing Wojo's best work to their worst and saying somehow because his best compared with something they did, it is OK.  When you get there always and play 50 NCAA tournament games you are going to have the occasional stinker.  When you get there twice and have a stinker both times, that is not the same thing.  I think any reasonable person would have a lot more doubt about a guy who hasn't proven himself vs. on who has.

A reasonable person would also compare what they did in their 3rd year or 5th year as a D1 head coach....and most of these guys didn’t even make the ncaa tournament in their first five years at the helm or also suffered without wins. 

Here’s the thing, say this year Wojo wins three NCAA games....suddenly he is a good coach? Or was it the matchups?

Say Wojo is fired, his next gig he goes to Sweet 16...suddenly he is a good coach?  You guys out so much emphasis on one game where anything can happen....how do you know of Wojo’s stinkers didn’t happen in his first two tries....and shouldn’t the stinkers you talk about above NOT be happening at schools with HOF coaches and better talent?  Isn’t that the point of having. The HOF coach and the better talent, to avoid the stinkers?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Galway Eagle on September 19, 2019, 12:52:53 PM
A reasonable person would also compare what they did in their 3rd year or 5th year as a D1 head coach....and most of these guys didn’t even make the ncaa tournament in their first five years at the helm or also suffered without wins. 

Here’s the thing, say this year Wojo wins three NCAA games....suddenly he is a good coach? Or was it the matchups?

Say Wojo is fired, his next gig he goes to Sweet 16...suddenly he is a good coach?  You guys out so much emphasis on one game where anything can happen....how do you know of Wojo’s stinkers didn’t happen in his first two tries....and shouldn’t the stinkers you talk about above NOT be happening at schools with HOF coaches and better talent?  Isn’t that the point of having. The HOF coach and the better talent, to avoid the stinkers?

Look even if he wins the championship he still didn't go to the NCAA with Buzz's crappy leftovers, our first burger boy, or with two under six foot three point shooters so it's obvious he's a bad coach.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 19, 2019, 01:41:51 PM
A reasonable person would also compare what they did in their 3rd year or 5th year as a D1 head coach....and most of these guys didn’t even make the ncaa tournament in their first five years at the helm or also suffered without wins. 

Here’s the thing, say this year Wojo wins three NCAA games....suddenly he is a good coach? Or was it the matchups?

Say Wojo is fired, his next gig he goes to Sweet 16...suddenly he is a good coach?  You guys out so much emphasis on one game where anything can happen....how do you know of Wojo’s stinkers didn’t happen in his first two tries....and shouldn’t the stinkers you talk about above NOT be happening at schools with HOF coaches and better talent?  Isn’t that the point of having. The HOF coach and the better talent, to avoid the stinkers?

What if Wojo wins 3 NCAA tournament games this year? What is he leaves Marquette and makes the Sweet 16 elsewhere? The "what if?" game is fun, especially when facts/history don't paint a rosy picture. Fun fact: last MU coach to last 5 years and not win an NCAA tournament game in those 5 years? Bill Chandler. In 1935.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 19, 2019, 01:52:22 PM
Doc

Depends what the results criteria is.

Field competitive team....check
Finish upper division in conf....check
Recruit good great players....check
Drive revenue, tickets.....check
Run a clean program....check
Keep program away from embarrassing public issues....check

Literally the only one he hasn’t done is win a NCAA tournament game...he has won several NIT games.

So Mike Deane, except Mike actually won an NCAA game. Sweet.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: GOO on September 19, 2019, 02:10:01 PM
So Mike Deane, except Mike actually won an NCAA game. Sweet.
You are remembering some of Dean's accomplishments in a way to favorable light compared to Wojo.  Especially if you are putting check marks next to the list that Cheeks put up for Dean.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: tower912 on September 19, 2019, 02:18:45 PM
To call Deane a good recruiter is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Herman Cain on September 19, 2019, 02:22:16 PM
So Mike Deane, except Mike actually won an NCAA game. Sweet.
Early on I put out a poll asking if Wojo would be able to perform better than Mike Deane. I put the same poll out midway through Wojo’s tenure.  Now that both have 5 years we see the results ,as you point out , are similar.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Galway Eagle on September 19, 2019, 02:23:29 PM
Early on I put out a poll asking if Wojo would be able to perform better than Mike Deane. I put the same poll out midway through Wojo’s tenure.  Now that both have 5 years we see the results ,as you point out , are similar.

They aren't really though. The nit is considerably harder to get into now. The conference is considerably harder. The recruiting is better moving forward
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Pakuni on September 19, 2019, 02:25:41 PM
So Mike Deane, except Mike actually won an NCAA game. Sweet.

Did you prefer Mike Deane?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 19, 2019, 02:30:29 PM
In terms of post-Al MU coaches, I think Wojo is firmly in the 4th or 5th position. Clearly ahead of Majerus, Dukiet, and Deane. Clearly behind KO, Crean, and Buzz. I don't know where to put Hank, better record but inherited a powerhouse and was the first step in a long downward slide. We'll see if Wojo climbs the ranks or if he's reached his ceiling.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 19, 2019, 02:34:45 PM
Did you prefer Mike Deane?

No.

My point was/is that the bar that Chico sets is arbitrary and not particularly high regarding on court performance.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Pakuni on September 19, 2019, 02:46:31 PM
No.

My point was/is that the bar that Chico sets is arbitrary and not particularly high regarding on court performance.

Of course it is, but so is judging a coach's entire tenure by NCAA tournament wins.
Wojo has fallen short in that category, and that's worthy of criticism. It also shouldn't be the only lens through which he's judged.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Silent Verbal on September 19, 2019, 03:09:52 PM
In terms of post-Al MU coaches, I think Wojo is firmly in the 4th or 5th position. Clearly ahead of Majerus, Dukiet, and Deane. Clearly behind KO, Crean, and Buzz. I don't know where to put Hank, better record but inherited a powerhouse and was the first step in a long downward slide. We'll see if Wojo climbs the ranks or if he's reached his ceiling.

To say that Wojo’s “firmly in the 4th or 5th position” of coaches post-Al isn’t really saying anything.  Buzz, Crean, and KO, in their first five years at MU, all did *way* better than Wojo in terms of actual results.  Wojo might be 4th, but the gap is enormous.

As far as what Wojo has actually accomplished, Deane is, unfortunately, his best comparison so far.  Wojo is a better recruiter than Deane, but that’s about it.  And that’s not saying anything, either.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Galway Eagle on September 19, 2019, 03:15:03 PM
To say that Wojo’s “firmly in the 4th or 5th position” of coaches post-Al isn’t really saying anything.  Buzz, Crean, and KO, in their first five years at MU, all did *way* better than Wojo in terms of actual results.  Wojo might be 4th, but the gap is enormous.

As far as what Wojo has actually accomplished, Deane is, unfortunately, his best comparison so far.  Wojo is a better recruiter than Deane, but that’s about it.  And that’s not saying anything, either.

O'Neil is not "way better" than Wojo. O'Neil capped off a 24-9 10-2 season with a sweet 16. Impressive yes but just as many wins as wojos best year except O'Neil needed a sweet 16 to get there.

I'd say Crean and Buzz were way better and that O'Neil is marginally better just because he rebuilt us from complete ashes.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on September 19, 2019, 03:18:36 PM
O'Neil is not "way better" than Wojo. O'Neil capped off a 24-9 10-2 season with a sweet 16. Impressive yes but just as many wins as wojos best year except O'Neil needed a sweet 16 to get there.

I'd say Crean and Buzz were way better and that O'Neil is marginally better just because he rebuilt us from complete ashes.


I don't think you understand the depths from which O'Neill took the Marquette program.  He was a better coach than Crean.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on September 19, 2019, 03:19:22 PM
To say that Wojo’s “firmly in the 4th or 5th position” of coaches post-Al isn’t really saying anything.  Buzz, Crean, and KO, in their first five years at MU, all did *way* better than Wojo in terms of actual results.  Wojo might be 4th, but the gap is enormous.

Which is why he said "Clearly behind KO, Crean, and Buzz."
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Galway Eagle on September 19, 2019, 03:24:15 PM

I don't think you understand the depths from which O'Neill took the Marquette program.  He was a better coach than Crean.

I feel like the line "complete ashes" gives enough acknowledgement to how bad we were. But he did still have Tony Smith.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Uncle Rico on September 19, 2019, 03:27:23 PM
I find it interesting KO, TC and Buzz all left on their own.  Don’t know what that means, but it is interesting

Very few coaches stay in one spot for a career.  Is that good or bad?  I’m not sure. 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on September 19, 2019, 03:29:17 PM
Again, if you understood what it was like then, I don't think you would have any question that O'Neill was a better coach than Wojo.  Not even close.  Just having Tony Smith, who was a gem, isn't going to completely make up for a terrible roster.  (I mean, I liked Trevor Powell, but when he's your second best player, that's a problem.)
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Uncle Rico on September 19, 2019, 03:33:37 PM
I feel like the line "complete ashes" gives enough acknowledgement to how bad we were. But he did still have Tony Smith.

Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t there some grumblings about what KO had accomplished before the Sweet 16 season?

He certainly inherited a bigger mess than any coach in the post-Al era and guided Marquette into the Great Midwest but I seem to recall pretty big expectations heading into 92-93 and they ended up a 12-seed.  They also needed to upset Kentucky in the ‘94 tournament to advance, as a 6-seed. 

Not sure if any of that means anything relevant to today
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 19, 2019, 03:43:50 PM
Of course it is, but so is judging a coach's entire tenure by NCAA tournament wins.
Wojo has fallen short in that category, and that's worthy of criticism. It also shouldn't be the only lens through which he's judged.

Not the only lens. B-/C+ for the regular season, an F the two times he's taken a "final". Overall, a C from me, but I've not given up - hope better days are ahead.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 19, 2019, 06:00:40 PM
To say that Wojo’s “firmly in the 4th or 5th position” of coaches post-Al isn’t really saying anything.  Buzz, Crean, and KO, in their first five years at MU, all did *way* better than Wojo in terms of actual results.  Wojo might be 4th, but the gap is enormous.

I don't think I said anything different.

As far as what Wojo has actually accomplished, Deane is, unfortunately, his best comparison so far.  Wojo is a better recruiter than Deane, but that’s about it.  And that’s not saying anything, either.

I don't think there's any logical comparison to Deane. He won with KO's leftovers and got worse every year. Wojo lost with Buzz' leftover and got better every year. Honestly, I don't think there's a good comparison for Wojo among former MU coaches.  KO, Crean, and Buzz all won a lot quicker. Deane, Dukiet, and Majerus all got worse every year. Wojo has gotten better every year but it's been a lot slower than the top 3. Maybe Hank is the best comparison? Taking over for one of the best and doing okay, but not great? At least not yet.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Small Orange Soda on September 19, 2019, 06:38:26 PM
Wojo lost with Buzz' leftover and got better every year.

Why do you continue to spout this nonsense?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Silent Verbal on September 19, 2019, 06:55:14 PM
Why do you continue to spout this nonsense?

+1

Why is “Wojo got better every year” stated as a fact?  Wojo made the dance in year 3, and missed it in year 4.  It seems like he got worse once Buzz’s leftovers were no longer on the team.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: jesmu84 on September 19, 2019, 06:57:55 PM
Why do you continue to spout this nonsense?

Look at the trend of objective rankings.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: jesmu84 on September 19, 2019, 06:58:22 PM
+1

Why is “Wojo got better every year” stated as a fact?  Wojo made the dance in year 3, and missed it in year 4.  It seems like he got worse once Buzz’s leftovers were no longer on the team.

Because it is, primarily.

See above
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on September 19, 2019, 07:06:02 PM
To call Deane a good recruiter is ridiculous.

Krunti Hester disagrees.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on September 19, 2019, 07:08:04 PM
Look at the trend of objective rankings.

Kenpom:
2019 - 33
2018 - 53
2017 - 32
2016 - 97
2015 - 93

Objective ranking
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Small Orange Soda on September 19, 2019, 07:12:40 PM
Look at the trend of objective rankings.

Ah yes, I forgot about the Objective Ranking Banner.  I see Year Four up there, carry on.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Silent Verbal on September 19, 2019, 07:18:20 PM
Kenpom:
2019 - 33
2018 - 53
2017 - 32
2016 - 97
2015 - 93

Objective ranking

Interesting.  According to this objective ranking, Wojo’s best season was the year three of “Buzz’s leftovers” were seniors and played important roles on the team.  Yep, Buzz truly left a bare cupboard.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Spaniel with a Short Tail on September 19, 2019, 07:45:12 PM
i'm scrolling thru 9 pages of comments and no has addressed "how the worm can turn"?

Geez, another thread derailed by off topic blather. Does this help?

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/VelvetyAncientBlowfish-mobile.mp4)
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 19, 2019, 08:20:15 PM
So Mike Deane, except Mike actually won an NCAA game. Sweet.

Really?

Mike's recruiting at the end was not very good
Mike Deane at the end didn't finish in the upper division at the end of his tenure.  Trajectory counts
Were we competitive his last year?  Eesh
Mike Deane had several players not exactly doing things the way the university wasn't too thrilled with...I worked in the athletic department at the time and can attest
Crowd sizes during Deane?  Uhm, not close.

I should have added rivalry games.  Wojo has done well.  Mike Deane, not so much.

Do not see the comparison at all.  Analogies of late on this board....really bad.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 19, 2019, 08:21:15 PM
What if Wojo wins 3 NCAA tournament games this year? What is he leaves Marquette and makes the Sweet 16 elsewhere? The "what if?" game is fun, especially when facts/history don't paint a rosy picture. Fun fact: last MU coach to last 5 years and not win an NCAA tournament game in those 5 years? Bill Chandler. In 1935.

Rick Majerus didn't win any either, and MU fans being the precious bunch that we are....ran him out.  Somehow, he did just fine after leaving us.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 19, 2019, 08:24:24 PM
To say that Wojo’s “firmly in the 4th or 5th position” of coaches post-Al isn’t really saying anything.  Buzz, Crean, and KO, in their first five years at MU, all did *way* better than Wojo in terms of actual results.  Wojo might be 4th, but the gap is enormous.

As far as what Wojo has actually accomplished, Deane is, unfortunately, his best comparison so far.  Wojo is a better recruiter than Deane, but that’s about it.  And that’s not saying anything, either.

KO also had seasons that were way worse, too.  KO also coached at MU when UW-madison extension was a joke as was our conference.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 19, 2019, 08:27:40 PM
+1

Why is “Wojo got better every year” stated as a fact?  Wojo made the dance in year 3, and missed it in year 4.  It seems like he got worse once Buzz’s leftovers were no longer on the team.

Because statistically it is true and some of us have proven it with facts, not with opinions.  See the data.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on September 19, 2019, 08:32:31 PM
Nm
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 19, 2019, 08:45:47 PM
Rick Majerus didn't win any either, and MU fans being the precious bunch that we are....ran him out.  Somehow, he did just fine after leaving us.

"Precious MU fans" didn't "run Majerus out". Rick quit, didn't last the requisite 5 years for our "apples to apples" comparison. So, 1935. The legendary Bill Chandler. Imagine that!


Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 19, 2019, 08:57:36 PM
Because statistically it is true and some of us have proven it with facts, not with opinions.  See the data.

Pomeroy's statistical analysis doesn't use facts? LOL.

Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 19, 2019, 08:59:53 PM
"Precious MU fans" didn't "run Majerus out". Rick quit, didn't last the requisite 5 years for our "apples to apples" comparison. So, 1935. The legendary Bill Chandler. Imagine that!

Rick quit because of the stress, much of it brought on by MU fans.  Or is Rick lying now?  RIP
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 19, 2019, 09:00:29 PM
Pomeroy's statistical analysis doesn't use facts? LOL.

Pomeroy is the only statistical analysis?  LOL
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Pakuni on September 19, 2019, 09:06:03 PM
+1

Why is “Wojo got better every year” stated as a fact?  Wojo made the dance in year 3, and missed it in year 4.  It seems like he got worse once Buzz’s leftovers were no longer on the team.

This is a no good, very bad take. Perhaps you should take a second look at that year three roster.

 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 19, 2019, 09:10:08 PM
Pomeroy is the only statistical analysis?  LOL

So you say people who refute you have no facts, only opinions. I cite Pomeroy's fact based analysis that refutes you. Unable to refute, instead you deflect. Classic.

BTW, what are your "facts"?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 19, 2019, 09:13:14 PM
Rick quit because of the stress, much of it brought on by MU fans.  Or is Rick lying now?  RIP

How the F do YOU know that Rick's stress was brought on by MU fans? Source?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 19, 2019, 09:23:27 PM
How the F do YOU know that Rick's stress was brought on by MU fans? Source?

Reread what I wrote, and then I'll answer it.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: auburnmarquette on September 19, 2019, 09:43:24 PM
Very nice in areas, exactly what we needed to get away from in others.
Joey too.  Can guard Big Ten guys but not BE

Great first post and agree with you completely on Joey. That's like having an employee you know needs to be fired for the good of the company and then you try to act sad when they quit.

However on Sam the positives so greatly outweighed the few weaknesses - mainly lack of athleticism that let him be worn down when needing to take on too tough defense. However, Sam as a senior would have been more valuable then even one of the great freshman - so for 2020 that is a loss.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Silent Verbal on September 19, 2019, 09:57:45 PM
This is a no good, very bad take. Perhaps you should take a second look at that year three roster.

I did.  Fischer and JJJ were major contributors that year.  Duane was essentially reduced to being an energy guy off the bench, but in the win over No. 1 Villanova at home, which many consider to be Wojo’s finest hour, he scored 11 points.  Katin led with 19.  The only other guy in double figures for MU was Luke Fischer with 15.  Two Buzz leftovers came up pretty big for Wojo that night. 

In year 4, according to Pomeroy, the team was, well, objectively worse.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Galway Eagle on September 19, 2019, 10:19:03 PM
I did.  Fischer and JJJ were major contributors that year.  Duane was essentially reduced to being an energy guy off the bench, but in the win over No. 1 Villanova at home, which many consider to be Wojo’s finest hour, he scored 11 points.  Katin led with 19.  The only other guy in double figures for MU was Luke Fischer with 15.  Two Buzz leftovers came up pretty big for Wojo that night. 

In year 4, according to Pomeroy, the team was, well, objectively worse.

Fischer was more of a Crean leftover, he had a semester of practice under Buzz.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 19, 2019, 10:29:16 PM
Fischer was more of a Crean leftover, he had a semester of practice under Buzz.

Left Crean to play for Buzz = Buzz leftover.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 19, 2019, 10:34:40 PM
Interesting.  According to this objective ranking, Wojo’s best season was the year three of “Buzz’s leftovers” were seniors and played important roles on the team.  Yep, Buzz truly left a bare cupboard.

If the best thing you can say about the cupboard is that they "played important roles" as seniors on a team that earned a 10 seed...
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 19, 2019, 10:42:44 PM
+1

Why is “Wojo got better every year” stated as a fact?  Wojo made the dance in year 3, and missed it in year 4.  It seems like he got worse once Buzz’s leftovers were no longer on the team.

College basketball goes in cycles. Teams have up years, teams have down years. If you're doing it right, you have at least two up years to every down year. Year 4 was always going to be a down year due to how many people were graduating. The last time that many players graduated was Wojo's 1st year and they had a sub .500 record. Next down year was year 4 and they just missed the dance. That's improvement. Next down year is next year. Goal should be to still make the tournament despite losing Markus, Ed, Jayce, and Sacar. As long as each cycle is getting better you're improving.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Pakuni on September 19, 2019, 11:00:12 PM
Left Crean to play for Buzz = Buzz leftover.

More like "Left Crean because homesickness; came to Marquette because close to home."
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 19, 2019, 11:03:30 PM
If the best thing you can say about the cupboard is that they "played important roles" as seniors on a team that earned a 10 seed...

I know "bare cupboard" is an accepted "fact" around here but the roster Wojo inherited had seven (7)  rsci top100 players on it. One senior (#81), one junior (#82) four sophomores (#30, #54, #59, #71) and one freshman (#75).

Four left before they completed eligibility, one struggled with injuries - so some mitigating circumstances. But how many top 100 guys does a new MU coach generally inherit?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 19, 2019, 11:06:27 PM
More like "Left Crean because homesickness; came to Marquette because close to home."

More like "Hated the culture at Indiana".
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 19, 2019, 11:08:53 PM
This is a no good, very bad take. Perhaps you should take a second look at that year three roster.

Please explain.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Pakuni on September 19, 2019, 11:09:30 PM
More like "Hated the culture at Indiana".

k
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Pakuni on September 19, 2019, 11:12:24 PM
Please explain.

You're a smart guy. I'm sure you can Google the roster, review the minutes played, leading scorers, advanced stats, etc., and figure it out.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 19, 2019, 11:14:35 PM
College basketball goes in cycles. Teams have up years, teams have down years. If you're doing it right, you have at least two up years to every down year. Year 4 was always going to be a down year due to how many people were graduating. The last time that many players graduated was Wojo's 1st year and they had a sub .500 record. Next down year was year 4 and they just missed the dance. That's improvement. Next down year is next year. Goal should be to still make the tournament despite losing Markus, Ed, Jayce, and Sacar. As long as each cycle is getting better you're improving.
[/quotes


One "up" year is a cycle that's followed by a "down" year? Not at any successful program I've ever seen. Cycles, maybe. Cycles that last one year? No way.

Sorry - misread - your cycles are 2 up, one down. I don't see year#2 in the Wojo regime as part of an up cycle. Our Pomeroy ranking was virtually the same as the previous year - in the 90s.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 19, 2019, 11:23:13 PM
You're a smart guy. I'm sure you can Google the roster, review the minutes played, leading scorers, advanced stats, etc., and figure it out.

See your point - Duane role was limited (injuries) and Fischer's role decreased as the season went on.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 20, 2019, 12:51:14 AM
I know "bare cupboard" is an accepted "fact" around here but the roster Wojo inherited had seven (7)  rsci top100 players on it. One senior (#81), one junior (#82) four sophomores (#30, #54, #59, #71) and one freshman (#75).

Four left before they completed eligibility, one struggled with injuries - so some mitigating circumstances. But how many top 100 guys does a new MU coach generally inherit?

When Wojo was hired, which do you think was a more valuable indicator of talent? Juan Anderson's RSCI ranking from 3 years ago? Or Juan's three year career at Marquette? Cause I think the latter tells you a lot more about how good the player actually was. Same goes for Steve Taylor, Jajuan Johnson, Luke Fischer, and the rest.

Wojo inherited a team that missed the NIT....then lost 5 of its top 6 players in terms of minutes played....and the 1 was Derrick Wilson.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 20, 2019, 04:45:29 AM
College basketball goes in cycles. Teams have up years, teams have down years. If you're doing it right, you have at least two up years to every down year. Year 4 was always going to be a down year due to how many people were graduating. The last time that many players graduated was Wojo's 1st year and they had a sub .500 record. Next down year was year 4 and they just missed the dance. That's improvement. Next down year is next year. Goal should be to still make the tournament despite losing Markus, Ed, Jayce, and Sacar. As long as each cycle is getting better you're improving.

Way too reasonable take on the situation.  This will not register with the wojo haters.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Small Orange Soda on September 20, 2019, 07:03:53 AM
Way too reasonable take on the situation.  This will not register with the wojo haters.

People who think going from the NCAA tournament to the NIT is improving: Reasonable.

People who don't: Wojo Haters.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 20, 2019, 07:39:44 AM
When Wojo was hired, which do you think was a more valuable indicator of talent? Juan Anderson's RSCI ranking from 3 years ago? Or Juan's three year career at Marquette? Cause I think the latter tells you a lot more about how good the player actually was. Same goes for Steve Taylor, Jajuan Johnson, Luke Fischer, and the rest.

Wojo inherited a team that missed the NIT....then lost 5 of its top 6 players in terms of minutes played....and the 1 was Derrick Wilson.

He inherited a freshman (Sandy Cohen) who was talented and left. Four sophomores who were talented - JJJ, uber talented but never developed, Fish, who actually regressed, Duane, who had some injuries and left and Deonte, who was the best of them all but left. One junior, Steve Taylor - solid but left. And one senior (Juan) who never fulfilled his promise.

So, lots of excuses (some valid) but still seven (7) rsci top 100 guys. No new MU coach ever inherited nearly that many. So not a totally bare cupboard like some suggest.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Herman Cain on September 20, 2019, 07:48:33 AM
When Wojo was hired, which do you think was a more valuable indicator of talent? Juan Anderson's RSCI ranking from 3 years ago? Or Juan's three year career at Marquette? Cause I think the latter tells you a lot more about how good the player actually was. Same goes for Steve Taylor, Jajuan Johnson, Luke Fischer, and the rest.

Wojo inherited a team that missed the NIT....then lost 5 of its top 6 players in terms of minutes played....and the 1 was Derrick Wilson.
Juan has been invited to the Warriors training camp this season.......  8-)
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: hairy worthen on September 20, 2019, 07:52:55 AM
College basketball goes in cycles. Teams have up years, teams have down years. If you're doing it right, you have at least two up years to every down year. Year 4 was always going to be a down year due to how many people were graduating. The last time that many players graduated was Wojo's 1st year and they had a sub .500 record. Next down year was year 4 and they just missed the dance. That's improvement. Next down year is next year. Goal should be to still make the tournament despite losing Markus, Ed, Jayce, and Sacar. As long as each cycle is getting better you're improving.

Now there is some world class rationalization. Well done.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 20, 2019, 08:10:20 AM
Juan has been invited to the Warriors training camp this season.......  8-)

You'll notice the sentence you quoted said how good Juan Anderson was. Players do improve after they graduate.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 20, 2019, 08:16:21 AM
He inherited a freshman (Sandy Cohen) who was talented and left. Four sophomores who were talented - JJJ, uber talented but never developed, Fish, who actually regressed, Duane, who had some injuries and left and Deonte, who was the best of them all but left. One junior, Steve Taylor - solid but left. And one senior (Juan) who never fulfilled his promise.

So, lots of excuses (some valid) but still seven (7) rsci top 100 guys. No new MU coach ever inherited nearly that many. So not a totally bare cupboard like some suggest.

So "talented" for you means that they were ranked highly out of high school. All those RSCI numbers tell me is that Buzz recruited a lot of overranked freshmen, which was already a habit for him (Jamail Jones, Eric Williams, Jamal Ferguson....etc)

Wojo took over a team that missed the NIT, lost 5 of its top 6 (the 1 being Derrick Wilson), and only had 1 incoming freshman left in its class (the 3rd best one). No MU coach since KO inherited less.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 20, 2019, 08:18:44 AM
Now there is some world class rationalization. Well done.

Not rationalizing at all. Other than the one and one factories of Kentucky and Duke that is how college basketball works for winning programs. 2-3 good years followed by a down year.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Its DJOver on September 20, 2019, 08:19:57 AM
He inherited a freshman (Sandy Cohen) who was talented and left. Four sophomores who were talented - JJJ, uber talented but never developed, Fish, who actually regressed, Duane, who had some injuries and left and Deonte, who was the best of them all but left. One junior, Steve Taylor - solid but left. And one senior (Juan) who never fulfilled his promise.

So, lots of excuses (some valid) but still seven (7) rsci top 100 guys. No new MU coach ever inherited nearly that many. So not a totally bare cupboard like some suggest.

Luke sitting out due to transfer rules aside, if they were so talented why couldn't Buzz (generally regarded as a better coach) win with them? 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Galway Eagle on September 20, 2019, 08:20:31 AM
He inherited a freshman (Sandy Cohen) who was talented and left. Four sophomores who were talented - JJJ, uber talented but never developed, Fish, who actually regressed, Duane, who had some injuries and left and Deonte, who was the best of them all but left. One junior, Steve Taylor - solid but left. And one senior (Juan) who never fulfilled his promise.

So, lots of excuses (some valid) but still seven (7) rsci top 100 guys. No new MU coach ever inherited nearly that many. So not a totally bare cupboard like some suggest.

If your argument is all about RSCI guys that's weak as can be. Why don't you put together a team of E Williams, Jamail Jones, Steve Taylor, Juan Anderson, Junior Cadougan against Jae Crowder, DJO, Jimmy Butler, Dwight Buycks, Lazar Hayward.

RSCI means nothing once they've gotten to college and shown they were vastly over/under rated
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 20, 2019, 09:59:09 AM
I know "bare cupboard" is an accepted "fact" around here but the roster Wojo inherited had seven (7)  rsci top100 players on it. One senior (#81), one junior (#82) four sophomores (#30, #54, #59, #71) and one freshman (#75).

Four left before they completed eligibility, one struggled with injuries - so some mitigating circumstances. But how many top 100 guys does a new MU coach generally inherit?

Here we go again....should we look to see how some of those top 100 RSCI players turned out over the years?  Erik Williams.  Juan.  Steve Taylor. Sandy Cohen.  Etc etc Just because you land there doesn't mean you should, or doesn't mean the recruiting "experts" totally messed up. 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Galway Eagle on September 20, 2019, 10:02:54 AM
Here we go again....should we look to see how some of those top 100 RSCI players turned out over the years?  Erik Williams.  Fulce.  Steve Taylor.  Etc etc Just because you land there doesn't mean you should, or doesn't mean the recruiting "experts" totally messed up.

Fulce?
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 20, 2019, 10:06:24 AM
Fulce?

Fixed.  I meant Juan not Joe.

Just to show how absurd these rankings can be......the ultimate crapshoot.....Matt Heldt 96 RSCI.  Sam Hauser 94 RSCI.

They are dependent on the talent level of that particular class.  A 60th rated guy one year could be 90th the following year or 30th depending on the talent levels of that crop of talent.  Plus you get into so much subjectivity.  I've said before, the RSCI is fine directionally and normally very good for the top of the top, but once  you get past a certain number (20's or 30's), the subjectivity factor looms ever larger.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: bilsu on September 20, 2019, 10:25:26 AM
Fixed.  I meant Juan not Joe.

Just to show how absurd these rankings can be......the ultimate crapshoot.....Matt Heldt 96 RSCI.  Sam Hauser 94 RSCI.

They are dependent on the talent level of that particular class.  A 60th rated guy one year could be 90th the following year or 30th depending on the talent levels of that crop of talent.  Plus you get into so much subjectivity.  I've said before, the RSCI is fine directionally and normally very good for the top of the top, but once  you get past a certain number (20's or 30's), the subjectivity factor looms ever larger.
A 50th ranked player that has peaked is not as good as a 100th rank player that is still rising. As fans we only see the rankings. Coaches have a better idea of who is improving and what they can do to help a player improve his game.

I watched Heldt play in a summer tournament and I could not believe that Bo would not offer him a scholarship. Apparently, Bo could see what I could not.


Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on September 20, 2019, 10:27:03 AM
You'll notice the sentence you quoted said how good Juan Anderson was. Players do improve after they graduate.

Juan Toscano
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 20, 2019, 12:23:52 PM
Luke sitting out due to transfer rules aside, if they were so talented why couldn't Buzz (generally regarded as a better coach) win with them?

Juan Anderson played on a S16 and E8 team. Steve Taylor on an E8 team. Buzz never coached Luke and Sandy. Buzz only coached Duane, JJJ and Deonte when they were freshman. (And according to Chicos, Buzz wasn't even trying that year LOL).
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Its DJOver on September 20, 2019, 12:38:14 PM
Juan Anderson played on a S16 and E8 team. Steve Taylor on an E8 team. Buzz never coached Luke and Sandy. Buzz only coached Duane, JJJ and Deonte when they were freshman. (And according to Chicos, Buzz wasn't even trying that year LOL).

Juan and Teve combined to score 5 ppg that year, and were getting less minutes that Derrick and Jake respectively.  To credit them for the E8 would be similar to crediting Jamal Ferguson or Dylan Flood.

Take the names (and the bias that those names carry) out, and look at it objectively.  Coach A had 7 top 100 guys that he couldn't win with.  Therefore coach A must be a bad coach.  That's a reasonable take, if that's all the info you had.  The majority of those guys were also on a team with another top 100 recruit and future NBA player as well as two other above average collegiate players that went on to play professionally.  Most importantly they had coach B who was more experienced and almost universally considered better, and the team still couldn't win.  If coach A can't win with them, and coach B can't win with them, maybe it's them and not the coach.   

Edit: Went through the Box Score's from that E8 run that Juan and Steve were a part of.  Despite both appearing in all 4 games, and Juan starting in all 4 games, they combined to score 0 points on 0-8 shooting. 

Went through the S16 run that Juan was a part of too.  Despite appearing in 6 career NCAA tournament games, Juan Anderson has never scored a point.  Rob Frozena has a higher ppg in the tounrey that Juan does.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 20, 2019, 12:40:48 PM
A 50th ranked player that has peaked is not as good as a 100th rank player that is still rising. As fans we only see the rankings. Coaches have a better idea of who is improving and what they can do to help a player improve his game.

I watched Heldt play in a summer tournament and I could not believe that Bo would not offer him a scholarship. Apparently, Bo could see what I could not.

Billie, you may be right.  I don’t know if the spread is that big, but certainly get your point and it is valid POV.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 20, 2019, 12:46:29 PM
Juan Anderson played on a S16 and E8 team. Steve Taylor on an E8 team. Buzz never coached Luke and Sandy. Buzz only coached Duane, JJJ and Deonte when they were freshman. (And according to Chicos, Buzz wasn't even trying that year LOL).

LOL.  Should we rattle off some others that played on those teams, including walk-ones.

The point is and shall remain, the RSCI has some value, but it is limited.  Arbitrary and subjective ratings by people and orgs, not all of which even see all of these players.  The number of busts just at MU alone in the 50 to 100 list is sizable just as the list of guys that never made the RSCI but did great things is material.  Take these ratings for what they are worth.  Whether they played for Buzzard, Crean, Wojo, KO or anyone else is moot....the ratings have plenty of examples of great and poor predictions on level of play.  I don’t understand why you roll out the RSCI top 100 players argument when so many of them were avg players in the final analysis.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Lennys Tap on September 20, 2019, 01:38:08 PM
Juan and Teve combined to score 5 ppg that year, and were getting less minutes that Derrick and Jake respectively.  To credit them for the E8 would be similar to crediting Jamal Ferguson or Dylan Flood.

Take the names (and the bias that those names carry) out, and look at it objectively.  Coach A had 7 top 100 guys that he couldn't win with.  Therefore coach A must be a bad coach.  That's a reasonable take, if that's all the info you had.  The majority of those guys were also on a team with another top 100 recruit and future NBA player as well as two other above average collegiate players that went on to play professionally.  Most importantly they had coach B who was more experienced and almost universally considered better, and the team still couldn't win.  If coach A can't win with them, and coach B can't win with them, maybe it's them and not the coach.   

Edit: Went through the Box Score's from that E8 run that Juan and Steve were a part of.  Despite both appearing in all 4 games, and Juan starting in all 4 games, they combined to score 0 points on 0-8 shooting. 

Went through the S16 run that Juan was a part of too.  Despite appearing in 6 career NCAA tournament games, Juan Anderson has never scored a point.  Rob Frozena has a higher ppg in the tounrey that Juan does.

Your question was "Why didn't Buzz win with theses guys?". The answer remains: two of them never played for him (so, impossible), 3 only played for him as freshmen (so, unlikely). The other 2 he did win with.

Look, I'm not saying Buzz left the 1976 Indiana team behind when he left. Just that 7 rsci top 100 guys isn't nothing. How many top 100 guys did he inherit from his predecessor at VTech? Zero.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Its DJOver on September 20, 2019, 01:43:53 PM
Your question was "Why didn't Buzz win with theses guys?". The answer remains: two of them never played for him (so, impossible), 3 only played for him as freshmen (so, unlikely). The other 2 he did win with.

Look, I'm not saying Buzz left the 1976 Indiana team behind when he left. Just that 7 rsci top 100 guys isn't nothing. How many top 100 guys did he inherit from his predecessor at VTech? Zero.

And I'm saying that top 100 in high school is a pretty meaningless accomplishment when looking at a collegiate career.  What do you think is more indicative of one's ability, being one of the top 100 high school players in the country at 18, or finishing your career in the MAC.  You're the one always saying that tourney games are the only ones that should matter (or at least matter the most).  What is more indicative of a players collegiate ability, being in the top 100 high school players, or finishing 0-for in tourney games despite getting 6 attempts, 4 or which were starts.  High school ability only matters when you're in high school.  Once you get to college, it's a whole new ballgame. 
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Its DJOver on September 20, 2019, 01:46:32 PM
On a side note, when looking at the Davidson game info, I had forgotten that we had 17 offensive rebounds.  That's what won it for us more than anything.  I'm sure Vander got SOTG based on the last 10 seconds, but Otule with the double double and 7 Oboards.  Very deserving.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 20, 2019, 02:15:33 PM
How the F do YOU know that Rick's stress was brought on by MU fans? Source?

I would suggest reading Rick’s book, My Life On A Napkin as just one source. 

There are others.

That’s how the F I know.  I take Rick at his word.  I take others that knew him and I had the pleasure of working with...at their word. 

Thank you 

Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on September 20, 2019, 02:16:00 PM
On a side note, when looking at the Davidson game info, I had forgotten that we had 17 offensive rebounds.  That's what won it for us more than anything.  I'm sure Vander got SOTG based on the last 10 seconds, but Otule with the double double and 7 Oboards.  Very deserving.

That kept us in the game when MU wasn't clicking for sure. No need for an Oreb though in the last two minutes ;)

What a great game!
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Marcus92 on September 21, 2019, 01:36:20 PM
On a side note, when looking at the Davidson game info, I had forgotten that we had 17 offensive rebounds. That's what won it for us more than anything. I'm sure Vander got SOTG based on the last 10 seconds, but Otule with the double double and 7 Oboards. Very deserving.

This could be a key to this year's team, as well.

During the 2012-13 season, Marquette shot just 29.6% from 3-point range -- ranking 323rd in the country per KenPom. Jamil Wilson led the team at 36.0%. Nobody else was reliable from outside, far from it: Vander Blue (30.3%), Junior Cadougan (22.6%), Todd Mayo (27.9%), Juan Anderson (28.6%), etc.

Fortunately, that team ranked 1st in the Big East and 15th nationally in offensive rebounding -- led by Davante Gardner (12.5 OR%), Chris Otule (12.2%) and Steve Taylor (15.5%). So while the team's effective field goal percentage was less than stellar (49.6%, 112th in the country), MU still produced offense quite efficiently (113.2 AdjO, 24th).

MU will surely shoot far better than 30% as a team from beyond the arc. But the loss of the Hausers will almost as surely mean a step down -- from 38.8% to perhaps somewhere in the 36% range.

However, offensive rebounding will likely be a strength. Jayce (14.1%), Ed (15.5%) and Theo (11.1%) are all very effective on the offensive glass. Jamal (7.2%) and Brendan (6.5%) have shown potential here, as well. That's one of the main reasons I don't expect a significant drop-off on the offensive end.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: brewcity77 on September 21, 2019, 02:03:45 PM
This could be a key to this year's team, as well.

During the 2012-13 season, Marquette shot just 29.6% from 3-point range -- ranking 323rd in the country per KenPom. Jamil Wilson led the team at 36.0%. Nobody else was reliable from outside, far from it: Vander Blue (30.3%), Junior Cadougan (22.6%), Todd Mayo (27.9%), Juan Anderson (28.6%), etc.

Fortunately, that team ranked 1st in the Big East and 15th nationally in offensive rebounding -- led by Davante Gardner (12.5 OR%), Chris Otule (12.2%) and Steve Taylor (15.5%). So while the team's effective field goal percentage was less than stellar (49.6%, 112th in the country), MU still produced offense quite efficiently (113.2 AdjO, 24th).

MU will surely shoot far better than 30% as a team from beyond the arc. But the loss of the Hausers will almost as surely mean a step down -- from 38.8% to perhaps somewhere in the 36% range.

However, offensive rebounding will likely be a strength. Jayce (14.1%), Ed (15.5%) and Theo (11.1%) are all very effective on the offensive glass. Jamal (7.2%) and Brendan (6.5%) have shown potential here, as well. That's one of the main reasons I don't expect a significant drop-off on the offensive end.

One of the big reasons we won that game was the three straight threes made in the final minutes, but it's one more example of why winning that game was not a choke on Davidson's part. Even though we had those three makes, we still only shot 4/15 (26.7%) for the game, so our three point percentage was still lower than our season average despite those makes. Really just progressing to the mean.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Cheeks on September 21, 2019, 04:28:02 PM
One of the big reasons we won that game was the three straight threes made in the final minutes, but it's one more example of why winning that game was not a choke on Davidson's part. Even though we had those three makes, we still only shot 4/15 (26.7%) for the game, so our three point percentage was still lower than our season average despite those makes. Really just progressing to the mean.
.

If Wisconsin lost that way, you would say they choked.  If any of our rivals had lost that way, you would have said they choked...because they did.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on September 21, 2019, 05:33:11 PM
One of the big reasons we won that game was the three straight threes made in the final minutes, but it's one more example of why winning that game was not a choke on Davidson's part. Even though we had those three makes, we still only shot 4/15 (26.7%) for the game, so our three point percentage was still lower than our season average despite those makes. Really just progressing to the mean.

Not sure davidson choked but then they did throw that long pass away right in front of me.  Worst 39 minutes followed by WTF just happened in Lexington
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Uncle Rico on September 21, 2019, 05:45:41 PM
Even if you want to say Davidson “choked”, Marquette still had to go win the game.  They had to make those 3’s and Vander had to make the shot.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: brewcity77 on September 21, 2019, 09:18:51 PM
.

If Wisconsin lost that way, you would say they choked.  If any of our rivals had lost that way, you would have said they choked...because they did.

They only choked if you don't understand how math works.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on September 21, 2019, 09:46:31 PM
Are we really having this argument for the 365th time?  Cheeks, take up postage stamp collecting or something.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Marcus92 on September 21, 2019, 10:38:20 PM
Are we really having this argument for the 365th time?  Cheeks, take up postage stamp collecting or something.

Of course they're having this argument again -- an argument that can't possibly be proven one way or another, and has no discernible relevance, which makes it totally pointless. But that hasn't ever stopped anyone on Scoop before.
Title: Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
Post by: Marcus92 on September 21, 2019, 10:44:45 PM
Credit to Its DJOver for trying to add something new to the discussion of the Davidson game -- possibly for the first time in years. But that was quickly passed over in favor of rehashing the same old tired arguments.