Well that was a waste

[Cheeks]

You call people stupid and then offer this explanation for public debt?
Hoo boy...

So you are saying a surplus isn’t the result of the state having spent less money in their planned budget in a given year?

A deficit isn’t the result of the state spending more money than their planned budget in a given year?

And the debt isn’t a running tab on each budget each year which goes into the plus or minus column based on said annual budget results?  Of course there is interest, etc that are also calculated in, but are you saying this is not the case?  Deficit and surpluses are usually a function of a given year, the debt is accumulation of each year to show what the state owes based on preceding budgets.  That is not the case?

[Cheeks]

Could you define "vast majority" and "losing a fortune?"

Because according to USA Today's annual review of athletic department finances, that's definitely not the case. Of the 230 ADs reviewed, 81 posted operating losses, or roughly a third. And the vast majority of those 81 were small losses relative to total budget (i.e. expenditures within 5-10 percent of revenues ... not what most would consider a "fortune" in relative terms).

Your question about whether all these schools should be running D1 athletic programs is a good one. But unless you have numbers that contradict those of USA Today, I don't agree that a vast majority are losing a fortune.

http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/

What you aren’t factoring in is student fees and other subsidies that prop up the departments.  On a pure self sustained POV, most athletic departments can not sustain and stand on their own because they have to accommodate for expenses that are non profitable, mostly Title IX expenditures which are a giant expense to the department with very little offsetting revenue to make a dent.

[brewcity77]

If those students want to perform in front of 17k students, get free education, room, board, travel, etc...where do they go...is there an office on campus for them to get the benefits student athletes do?

Yes. Marquette holds try-outs for walk-ons every year. They are free to walk on and attempt to earn one of those scholarships like Tommy Gardner.

[Cheeks]

Not only that, but athletics should be viewed more like a marketing expense.  I don't think most athletic departments are operating at a break-even point, nor should they expected to be.  But if you eliminate athletics alltogether, the consequences would likely be worse.

Is Norbert’s thriving because of athletics?  Does anyone other than student athletes attend because of the Norbert’s football team?  Or because of the UW Eau Claire soccer team?  It matters at some schools as a marketing tool, but let’s not extend it beyond the small number that matters.  The lower end of D1 it doesn’t matter, and it doesn’t for the vast majority of D2 and D3

[Cheeks]

Yes. Marquette holds try-outs for walk-ons every year. They are free to walk on and attempt to earn one of those scholarships like Tommy Gardner.

Not all MU sports do,  and a number schools don’t have walkon tryouts at all...which office do they go to to get the same benefits the student athletes do?

[Cheeks]

The University of Wisconsin athletic department requested a budget of $159 million for 2019-20.  They pay their defensive and offensive coordinators in football $966,000 and $775,000 respectively.  They’ve doubled the salaries of their men’s hockey coach and women’s basketball coach from their predecessors, two coaches who were fired.

The University received $44 million in TV revenue, $41 million in gift funds and $52 million in ticket sales.  According to a study published last month in the State Journal, UW sports were worth $610 million to the state economy.

aMaTeURisM

Oh noes, employees getting paid to be employees.  Student athletes not employees don’t get paid.

Hey, the high school coach gets paid, the high school athlete doesn’t....therefore high school athletes are no longer amateurs?

Good Lord

[Pakuni]

LOL.

I’m sorry, you aren’t Pakuni here talking about the California Governor?  Classic

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=59014.msg1159177#msg1159177

Oh, please. I said the bill was signed.
You're such a troll.

[Pakuni]

And the debt isn’t a running tab on each budget each year which goes into the plus or minus column based on said annual budget results?  Of course there is interest, etc that are also calculated in, but are you saying this is not the case?  Deficit and surpluses are usually a function of a given year, the debt is accumulation of each year to show what the state owes based on preceding budgets.  That is not the case?

That is not the case.
I'm not going to spend my morning explaining government finance to you. Educate yourself.

[brewcity77]

Not all MU sports do,  and a number schools don’t have walkon tryouts at all...which office do they go to to get the same benefits the student athletes do?

Do all sports play in front of 17k students, a number you specifically cited? You were clearly talking about basketball. Though if you move goalposts again to another sport, that would be par for the course.

[Cheeks]

Oh, please. I said the bill was signed.
You're such a troll.

Oh please, you mentioned the governor when you said you didn’t bring it up.  Now you move the goalposts.

[Cheeks]

That is not the case.

Please feel to correct it, then...I can submit it to Nobel prize winner Paul Krugman to make a change in his book.

[Pakuni]

What you aren’t factoring in is student fees and other subsidies that prop up the departments.  On a pure self sustained POV, most athletic departments can not sustain and stand on their own because they have to accommodate for expenses that are non profitable, mostly Title IX expenditures which are a giant expense to the department with very little offsetting revenue to make a dent.

[Cheeks]

Do all sports play in front of 17k students, a number you specifically cited? You were clearly talking about basketball. Though if you move goalposts again to another sport, that would be par for the course.

You can change that number to 2.5k, 500, 100k, doesn’t change a thing.  Feel free to do so with any any number you wish.  Also you can add be televised throughout the country, or streamed for people to watch.  Can get a video stream of the history students performing later today?

[Cheeks]

Not at all.  What’s glorious is there are a number of articles that show how in debt athletic depts are and their need to draw on funds from student fees, etc that you chose not to reference.

500 Economists say........ahh yes, but 500 different economists say differently.  Classic.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

And someone please tell me why on earth it matters one iota what Jim Delaney makes or a coach?  They have responsibilities far greater than most on this board and certainly more than any student athlete.  It’s like the pay envy nonsense some here have about CEO’s.  The commissioner of the BIG TEN is a huge job, yes that person will be paid as such.  That person is also an employee,  a student athlete is not an employee.

If those students want to perform in front of 17k students, get free education, room, board, travel, etc...where do they go...is there an office on campus for them to get the benefits student athletes do?

Do you see any problems with posting these two thoughts within minutes of each other?

[Pakuni]

Not at all.  What’s glorious is there are a number of articles that show how in debt athletic depts are and their need to draw on funds from student fees, etc that you chose not to reference.

500 Economists say........ahh yes, but 500 different economists say differently.  Classic.

Yes, Cheeks, if you strip away certain revenue streams for athletic departments then they will indeed have less revenue.
Good take.
But in an intellectually honest discussion about whether the "vast majority" of athletic departments are losing "a fortune," you don't get to cherry pick which revenue streams can be counted and which should be discounted to arrive at the conclusion you want. It would be about as legitimate as me saying, "Well sure, Tennessee athletics lost money last year, but if don't count the $5.6 million buyout for Butch Jones and his staff, they would have been in the black."

[brewcity77]

You can change that number to 2.5k, 500, 100k, doesn’t change a thing.  Feel free to do so with any any number you wish.  Also you can add be televised throughout the country, or streamed for people to watch.  Can get a video stream of the history students performing later today?

This is a complete false equivalency. You just don't want to talk about the reality that all the students you cited can profit off their likenesses and student athletes can't, so you again try to move the goalposts. Then when that's exposed, you move them again.

Once, just once, try to address the actual talking point rather than pivoting because dealing with the issue at hand is uncomfortable for you.

[Cheeks]

Do you see any problems with posting these two thoughts within minutes of each other?

Absolutely none.

Coaches, teachers, administrators are EMPLOYEES.  They have a job to do.  Student athletes are not employees, as established by the courts.  Student athletes have a great deal with great benefits that not only helps them over jus about every other student on campus in the current period, but longer term for a number of them once they leave.  The springboard for them is incredible.   

So, no.

[Cheeks]

Yes, Cheeks, if you strip away certain revenue streams for athletic departments then they will indeed have less revenue.
Good take.
But in an intellectually honest discussion about whether the "vast majority" of athletic departments are losing "a fortune," you don't get to cherry pick which revenue streams can be counted and which should be discounted to arrive at the conclusion you want. It would be about as legitimate as me saying, "Well sure, Tennessee athletics lost money last year, but if don't count the $5.6 million buyout for Butch Jones and his staff, they would have been in the black."

Is the school paying for Butch Jones?  Or is a booster?  Make up your mind on what we are talking about....athletic dept funds, or outside sources of funding (boosters / student fees / etc).   You seem to be mixing and matching

[Cheeks]

This is a complete false equivalency. You just don't want to talk about the reality that all the students you cited can profit off their likenesses and student athletes can't, so you again try to move the goalposts. Then when that's exposed, you move them again.

Once, just once, try to address the actual talking point rather than pivoting because dealing with the issue at hand is uncomfortable for you.

Student athletes are permitted to have youtube channels, work, etc.  Why you don’t mention that time and again is amazing.

The benefits student athletes get vs the rest of the student body massively dwarf anything they cannot do and it most cases the student athletes can, in fact, do what the everyday student can....but with restrictions.

And yes, some students, and some people (tall vs short, attractive vs ugly, old vs young, smart vs dumb) sometimes have different opportunities presented to them.  Life in a nutshell.  Not everyone is allowed to be a fireman last I checked.  It is overwhelmingly male....maybe we should change standards to equalize it because it is so unfair currently to so many people wanting the firefighting dream.  Love it.  Physical requirements...no need.  Mental acumen...nah.  #HARRISONBERGERON

[MU82]

Sorry that autocorrect does that.

Start apologizing

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=59014.msg1159177#msg1159177

Pakuni's post is just relaying factual information. Yours was political, as usual; plus it wasn't even a response to Pakuni's - it was a stand-alone comment.

So yes, I apologize. I'm sorry for all of Scoop that you're so you.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Absolutely none.

Coaches, teachers, administrators are EMPLOYEES.  They have a job to do.  Student athletes are not employees, as established by the courts.  Student athletes have a great deal with great benefits that not only helps them over jus about every other student on campus in the current period, but longer term for a number of them once they leave.  The springboard for them is incredible.   

So, no.

I do. In the first post you think its wrong for people to be envious of someone else's compensation. In the second post, you think people should be envious of someone else's compensation.

[Pakuni]

Is the school paying for Butch Jones?  Or is a booster?  Make up your mind on what we are talking about....athletic dept funds, or outside sources of funding (boosters / student fees / etc).   You seem to be mixing and matching

Tennessee has paid nearly $5.6 million in buyout damages to Butch Jones and members of his staff since they were fired, according to figures UT supplied to USA TODAY NETWORK – Tennessee in response to a public records request.

https://www.knoxnews.com/story/sports/college/university-of-tennessee/football/2019/02/04/ut-vols-butch-jones-buyout-tennessee-football-bob-shoop/2710905002/

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The benefits student athletes get vs the rest of the student body massively dwarf anything they cannot do and it most cases the student athletes can, in fact, do what the everyday student can....but with restrictions.

"The athletes have it good enough" is not a logical argument against them profiting off their likeness. Just because something is good enough doesn't mean it can't be improved.

[brewcity77]

Not everyone is allowed to be a fireman last I checked.  It is overwhelmingly male....maybe we should change standards to equalize it because it is so unfair currently to so many people wanting the firefighting dream.  Love it.  Physical requirements...no need.  Mental acumen...nah.

You clearly haven't checked in awhile. Standards to equalize it have existed for a long time. Welcome to the 21st century.

And again...moving the goalposts away from what you don't want to talk about.