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Author Topic: Well that was a waste  (Read 30225 times)

dgies9156

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #450 on: September 21, 2019, 08:31:48 AM »
Hell, ask my generation or older about spanking kids vs today....yet a lot of people grew up just fine after being spanked.  It's a different approach.

Until it becomes child abuse. Or worse.

Uncle Rico

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #451 on: September 21, 2019, 08:50:31 AM »
Baylor "returned to near the top of college basketball". When was Baylor ever near the top of college basketball?

Maybe I'm wrong but isn't this Scott Drew era by far the pinnacol of Baylor basketball?

You are correct, Baylor instituted a 'win at all cost' policy for sports to raise the profile of the school. And I believe one could say it has worked from a strictly financial perspective.

As for Kansas, I feel you are correct also. They have always cheated to win and always will. Business as usual.

If the NCAA or Big XII for that matter actually cared about the actions of their members, Baylor would have been expelled.  The Big Ten should have done the same with Penn State and now Michigan State. 

Baylor’s actions during the Dave Bliss era were inexcusable and rumors abound of cheating under Scott Drew.  No penalty changed anything.

Art Briles and his reign of terror was a disgrace.  And they fought to keep him and his son is employed at Florida State.  They still managed to hire a good, young coach in Matt Rhule.

The most important issue is keeping amateurism in college sports to keep it pure
Alleged Slurper

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #452 on: September 21, 2019, 08:50:44 AM »
Baylor "returned to near the top of college basketball". When was Baylor ever near the top of college basketball?

Maybe I'm wrong but isn't this Scott Drew era by far the pinnacol of Baylor basketball?

You are correct, Baylor instituted a 'win at all cost' policy for sports to raise the profile of the school. And I believe one could say it has worked from a strictly financial perspective.

As for Kansas, I feel you are correct also. They have always cheated to win and always will. Business as usual.

You are correct that “return” was a poor choice. I guess my point is that sanctions don’t mean lasting impact and business as usual will often continue.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #453 on: September 21, 2019, 09:15:23 AM »
Reading this thread makes me feel that people are supporting College Basketball in some sort of alternative universe.

Bill Self is college basketball.  When Bill Self leaves someone will replace him.

lawdog77

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #454 on: September 21, 2019, 09:22:33 AM »

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #455 on: September 21, 2019, 09:28:59 AM »
That's what she said

Porcini’s prides itself on quick table service.

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #456 on: September 21, 2019, 09:54:24 AM »
Until it becomes child abuse. Or worse.

Of course.  Limits to everything.  I remember being spanked Once as a kid and it did the trick.  I ran into the street and a car was coming having to slam on the breaks in front of our house..I was probably 5 or 6. 
My dad sat me down, talked to me for a good 20 minutes.  He didn’t want to do it, but he wanted to make damn sure I never ran into the street again like that...tough love.  Tell you what, it worked.  No doubt there are plenty of psychologists that would say how terrible that was....well, that was punishment doling back then and I knew he loved me and was teaching me a lesson.
"Sometimes I wonder, ‘How did it happen. I had seven or eight teams better than that one” describing the championship run in ‘77.
- Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #457 on: September 21, 2019, 09:57:00 AM »
If the NCAA or Big XII for that matter actually cared about the actions of their members, Baylor would have been expelled.  The Big Ten should have done the same with Penn State and now Michigan State. 

Baylor’s actions during the Dave Bliss era were inexcusable and rumors abound of cheating under Scott Drew.  No penalty changed anything.

Art Briles and his reign of terror was a disgrace.  And they fought to keep him and his son is employed at Florida State.  They still managed to hire a good, young coach in Matt Rhule.

The most important issue is keeping amateurism in college sports to keep it pure

But but but but but you are for the athletes....you keep saying.  So expelling MSU and penalizing the soccer, vball, track, tennis, hockey, and all other programs is your answer because so what happened in another part of the department.  Based on your other stances, it probably is since you don’t seem to care that paying athletes will also mean schools have to downsize eventually causing lost opportunities.
"Sometimes I wonder, ‘How did it happen. I had seven or eight teams better than that one” describing the championship run in ‘77.
- Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #458 on: September 21, 2019, 09:58:10 AM »
You are correct that “return” was a poor choice. I guess my point is that sanctions don’t mean lasting impact and business as usual will often continue.

How long do you want the impact to last?  Sanctions are not meant to be forever.  Some schools never recover, others take years, others bounce back fairly quick.
"Sometimes I wonder, ‘How did it happen. I had seven or eight teams better than that one” describing the championship run in ‘77.
- Al McGuire

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #459 on: September 21, 2019, 10:03:09 AM »
How long do you want the impact to last?  Sanctions are not meant to be forever.  Some schools never recover, others take years, others bounce back fairly quick.

I don’t particularly care.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

Uncle Rico

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #460 on: September 21, 2019, 10:03:35 AM »
But but but but but you are for the athletes....you keep saying.  So expelling MSU and penalizing the soccer, vball, track, tennis, hockey, and all other programs is your answer because so what happened in another part of the department.  Based on your other stances, it probably is since you don’t seem to care that paying athletes will also mean schools have to downsize eventually causing lost opportunities.

In a freaking heartbeat.  Those institutions turned a blind eye, from top to bottom to unspeakable crimes. 

Again, you state as fact downsizing will occur if athletes get compensated for their likenesses.  Protect amateurism, excuse heinous crimes covered up by member institutions but don’t let athletes get compensated on their likeness.  Got it
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Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #461 on: September 21, 2019, 10:30:42 AM »
But but but but but you are for the athletes....you keep saying.  So expelling MSU and penalizing the soccer, vball, track, tennis, hockey, and all other programs is your answer because so what happened in another part of the department. 

It didn't happen "in another part" of the department. It involved the highest ranking people in the entire department, all the way up to the university president.
And let's not forget that the university/athletic department has a history beyond Larry Nassar of turning a blind eye to misconduct.

Quote
Based on your other stances, it probably is since you don’t seem to care that paying athletes will also mean schools have to downsize eventually causing lost opportunities.

This is nothing more than chicken little speculation. Markus Howard getting $10K to appear in a Cyganiak Planning radio ad won't cancel the volleyball program.

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #462 on: September 21, 2019, 11:01:34 AM »
It didn't happen "in another part" of the department. It involved the highest ranking people in the entire department, all the way up to the university president.
And let's not forget that the university/athletic department has a history beyond Larry Nassar of turning a blind eye to misconduct.

This is nothing more than chicken little speculation. Markus Howard getting $10K to appear in a Cyganiak Planning radio ad won't cancel the volleyball program.

So you penalize all those kids in sports that Nassar did not impact at all?

You don’t seem to understand how the sponsorship game is going to work.  Money to kids means money not to program which pays for scholarships for those kids.  Enough of that happens, programs get cut.  Then the bidding wars impact in the recruiting process, that will also have some schools....especially smaller ones, realize they cannot compete in this any more...they drop down.  Now you have scheduling issues because there are not enough programs to fill everyone’s schedule, etc, etc.  This isn’t about $10k for one guy.....you can liken it to a city project that is hailed as only costing $500M ends up being 2X that....people all too often do not think about the impacts, unintended consequences, etc.
"Sometimes I wonder, ‘How did it happen. I had seven or eight teams better than that one” describing the championship run in ‘77.
- Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #463 on: September 21, 2019, 11:03:30 AM »
In a freaking heartbeat.  Those institutions turned a blind eye, from top to bottom to unspeakable crimes. 

Again, you state as fact downsizing will occur if athletes get compensated for their likenesses.  Protect amateurism, excuse heinous crimes covered up by member institutions but don’t let athletes get compensated on their likeness.  Got it

I state it as my opinion.   I’m not excusing the behavior or the actions of individuals....I would like to see them go to prison.  I’m fine with kids getting compensated....quit the team and do what the other kids can do.  Simple. 
"Sometimes I wonder, ‘How did it happen. I had seven or eight teams better than that one” describing the championship run in ‘77.
- Al McGuire

Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #464 on: September 21, 2019, 12:22:20 PM »
So you penalize all those kids in sports that Nassar did not impact at all?

No, I penalize the athletic department that allowed him to abuse teenagers and young women for years.
Do you believe Arizona basketball should escape sanctions if/when it's proven that DeAndre Ayton got paid? I mean, it's so unfair to punish Nico Mannion for something he had nothing to do with.

(Also, where's Mr. Life is Unfair?)

Quote
You don’t seem to understand how the sponsorship game is going to work.  Money to kids means money not to program which pays for scholarships for those kids.  Enough of that happens, programs get cut. 

Oh, come on.
You should understand how the sponsorship game works, but you're ignoring that reality because it doesn't fit your argument.
First, you're exaggerating how much sponsorship revenue schools receive. ADs get the great majority of their money from ticket sales, TV rights and licensing.
More importantly, you're vastly exaggerating how much money sponsors are going to shift from entire programs to individual athletes.
Nike gets way more bang for its buck by having all Duke players wearing their gear during games than they ever will by featuring an individual player in an ad.
Jumpman gets way more out of having the Jordan logo on everything UNC-related than they ever will by putting the next Coby White on a billboard. They already get Coby White and every other UNC athlete as a walking billboard ... why on earth would they abandon that?
The answer, of course is that they won't. But that doesn't fit the chicken little narrative, does it?

And again, if you're fear is bidding wars, the NCAA can address that. But of course, they won't, because like you they'd rather dig in their heels on a losing cause.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 12:25:34 PM by Pakuni »

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #465 on: September 21, 2019, 12:28:19 PM »
No, I penalize the athletic department that allowed him to abuse teenagers and young women for years.
Do you believe Arizona basketball should escape sanctions if/when it's proven that DeAndre Ayton got paid? I mean, it's so unfair to punish Nico Mannion for something he had nothing to do with.

(Also, where's Mr. Life is Unfair?)

Oh, come on.
You should understand how the sponsorship game works, but you're ignoring that reality because it doesn't fit your argument.
First, you're exaggerating how much sponsorship revenue schools receive. ADs get the great majority of their money from ticket sales, TV rights and licensing.
More importantly, you're vastly exaggerating how much money sponsors are going to shift from entire programs to individual athletes.
Nike gets way more bang from its buck by having all Duke players wearing their gear during games than they ever will by featuring an individual player in an ad.
Jumpman gets way more out of having the Jordan logo on everything UNC-related than they ever will by putting the next Coby White on a billboard. They already get Coby White and every other UNC athlete as a walking billboard ... why on earth would they abandon that?
The answer, of course is that they won't. But that doesn't fit the chicken little narrative, does it?

And again, if you're fear is bidding wars, the NCAA can address that. But of course, they won't, because like you they'd rather dig in their heels on a losing cause.


I lived the sponsorship game both on the inside as someone who sold them for MU and currently as a sponsor of many schools and conferences.  I know damn well how much money in sponsorships got to schools.  I didn’t exaggerate a damn thing.  As AD’s have told me directly, the money you are pledging in sponsorship funds X staff positions, X scholarships, etc.  I never once said it was more than tv money, etc, so don’t put those words in my mouth.  Not once.

Over $1.2 Billion spent.   https://www.sponsorship.com/Report/2018/03/19/Sponsorship-Spending-On-College-Athletics-To-Total.aspx

Those dollars help many financially strapped programs, help employ people, provide scholarships to kids.  You have no idea how many schools this money is vital to their program for resources, staffing and making sure a bunch of kids can realize their dream to play college sports....no idea.

On your first statement, I see that as two different things.  If the men’s basketball program at KU is cheating then the men’s basketball program should be punished. I find that totally fair.  And that’s too bad for Nico, he can transfer if he wishes.  You want to stop the bad behavior, spank them where it hurts.  That is quite different then expelling an entire athletic program as Rico was saying and I strongly disagree with.  In that situation the collateral damage extends way beyond and is not appropriate punishment in my opinion.  Send those people to prison that are responsible.  That is fairness in my book.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 12:34:32 PM by Cheeks »
"Sometimes I wonder, ‘How did it happen. I had seven or eight teams better than that one” describing the championship run in ‘77.
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Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #466 on: September 21, 2019, 01:41:45 PM »

I lived the sponsorship game both on the inside as someone who sold them for MU and currently as a sponsor of many schools and conferences.  I know damn well how much money in sponsorships got to schools.  I didn’t exaggerate a damn thing.  As AD’s have told me directly, the money you are pledging in sponsorship funds X staff positions, X scholarships, etc.  I never once said it was more than tv money, etc, so don’t put those words in my mouth.  Not once.

Over $1.2 Billion spent.   https://www.sponsorship.com/Report/2018/03/19/Sponsorship-Spending-On-College-Athletics-To-Total.aspx

Those dollars help many financially strapped programs, help employ people, provide scholarships to kids.  You have no idea how many schools this money is vital to their program for resources, staffing and making sure a bunch of kids can realize their dream to play college sports....no idea.

Cheeks ... what you continue to ignore is that the vast, vast majority of that sponsorship revenue is going nowhere. Companies will continue to get far more exposure and impressions by sponsoring the entire program as opposed to individual players, and so that's where the money will remain.
Why would Nike take money away from Duke to sponsor the next Zion Williamson, when they can keep it with Duke and have Zion Williamson AND everyone else in the athletic department? And they get them during games, when they have a captive audience, as opposed to ads during which a large segment of the viewership is a) staring at their phones, b) skipping through because they're watching the game on DVR, c) flipping over to another game d) going to the bathroom, getting something to eat, talking to someone, etc.
The armageddon you're predicting just makes no sense.


Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #467 on: September 21, 2019, 02:22:02 PM »
Cheeks ... what you continue to ignore is that the vast, vast majority of that sponsorship revenue is going nowhere. Companies will continue to get far more exposure and impressions by sponsoring the entire program as opposed to individual players, and so that's where the money will remain.
Why would Nike take money away from Duke to sponsor the next Zion Williamson, when they can keep it with Duke and have Zion Williamson AND everyone else in the athletic department? And they get them during games, when they have a captive audience, as opposed to ads during which a large segment of the viewership is a) staring at their phones, b) skipping through because they're watching the game on DVR, c) flipping over to another game d) going to the bathroom, getting something to eat, talking to someone, etc.
The armageddon you're predicting just makes no sense.

Because it is wildly inefficient for Nike.  The fact I have to do a deal with X team when I really want X player is what I face every damn year.  Nike would be much much more efficient to spend on one or two guys, then dilute with the entire team.  They can do high profile campaigns which they dictate, not the school or the ncaa rules holding them back.  If I can spend $500k with Oklahoma and I know the dept is going to give me “value” at the soccer, volleyball, track, football and basketball games....all fine and great.....but the value is heavily skewed.  If I can spend $350k on just 3 guys and go to town just with those three, my marketing efficiencies and ROI is way improved.  I’m not making an inefficient spend.  This is what we do for a living.  I have no doubt there are some companies salivating to go down this model because of the efficiencies it drives, but they also don’t give a damn all too often about the kids playing in the other sports. Call me a bleeding heart liberal on this, but I do and my personal experiences are the reasons why.  The athletic departments would suffer and that means the kids, resources, etc along with it.
"Sometimes I wonder, ‘How did it happen. I had seven or eight teams better than that one” describing the championship run in ‘77.
- Al McGuire

dgies9156

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #468 on: September 21, 2019, 05:19:49 PM »
Of course.  Limits to everything.  I remember being spanked Once as a kid and it did the trick. 

The corporal punishment used in my high school was so obscene as to be child abuse in most states in the United States. And it led to some problems the Diocese is still paying for.

The question is, what are the limits?

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #469 on: September 21, 2019, 10:10:43 PM »
The corporal punishment used in my high school was so obscene as to be child abuse in most states in the United States. And it led to some problems the Diocese is still paying for.

The question is, what are the limits?

I'm sorry that was the case for you.  Absolutely needs limits.  Texas, Oklahoma and Georgia still have it, but you have to opt in as a parent....at least in Texas you do. 

I went to Catholic school from grade 1 to 12.  Went to K and Pre-K in South America, but taught by English (UK), Canadian and American teachers there.  The cwrap you with a ruler or yard stick occassionally, but the threat was enough to get people in line.
"Sometimes I wonder, ‘How did it happen. I had seven or eight teams better than that one” describing the championship run in ‘77.
- Al McGuire

Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #470 on: September 23, 2019, 04:31:10 PM »
@GoodmanHoops
Kansas has received Notice of Allegation, sources confirm to @Stadium. Level I violations alleged. No shock. Real info will come in about 9 months or so when penalties levied. How bad will Bill Self and the Jayhawks get hit?

goldeneagle91114

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #471 on: September 23, 2019, 04:43:43 PM »
@GoodmanHoops
Kansas has received Notice of Allegation, sources confirm to @Stadium. Level I violations alleged. No shock. Real info will come in about 9 months or so when penalties levied. How bad will Bill Self and the Jayhawks get hit?

I hope the NCAA finally gets this right and starts to truly punish these schools and coaches. However, I can still totally see this turning out to be nothing.

MuMark

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Uncle Rico

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #473 on: September 23, 2019, 05:42:39 PM »
Whatever penalty gets, Self will be gone.  He’ll either be in the NBA or announcing games.

Kansas will lose scholarships, have some banners stripped and miss a tournament, maybe two.

They’ll be Final 4 contenders as fast as Louisville has become after “crippling sanctions and crimes”.

See: 1988
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JakeBarnes

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #474 on: September 23, 2019, 05:45:27 PM »
NM.

This is gonna be interesting to see how it shakes out.
Assume what I say should be in teal if it doesn't pass the smell test for you.