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Author Topic: Well that was a waste  (Read 206366 times)

Lennys Tap

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #250 on: September 08, 2019, 05:05:19 PM »

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Thank you for making my point.

1. I sleep peacefully

2. Re human rights, I'm probably in total (or near total) agreement with your views.

3. But I don't judge as "evil" or name call those who might disagree with me (on say religious grounds)  I leave that to the bigots.

4. But whatever helps you sleep at night.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #251 on: September 08, 2019, 05:10:16 PM »
Thank you for making my point.

1. I sleep peacefully

2. Re human rights, I'm probably in total (or near total) agreement with your views.

3. But I don't judge as "evil" or name call those who might disagree with me (on say religious grounds)  I leave that to the bigots.

4. But whatever helps you sleep at night.

🙄
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Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #252 on: September 08, 2019, 05:16:40 PM »
3. But I don't judge as "evil" or name call those who might disagree with me (on say religious grounds)  I leave that to the bigots.

If one were to call a white supremacist evil - even one who defends his/her beliefs on religious grounds, as many do - does that make that person a bigot?

TheyWereCones

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #253 on: September 08, 2019, 05:35:58 PM »
Being offended isn't a choice.

100% wrong.
Those could have been guests at her wedding.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #254 on: September 08, 2019, 06:03:58 PM »
If one were to call a white supremacist evil - even one who defends his/her beliefs on religious grounds, as many do - does that make that person a bigot?

Of course not. No legitimate religion supports white supremacy.


TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #255 on: September 08, 2019, 06:28:04 PM »
100% wrong.

How? I think we can choose how we act on our feelings but not on what our initial feelings are.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #256 on: September 08, 2019, 06:38:28 PM »
Guess what? Both sides in the "Intolerance War" think the other side is intolerant. Neither side is wrong.

Lenny, didn't you just accuse me of putting people into groups? I haven't mentioned a single group in this conversation but here you are trying to put people on opposite sides of a war. This is a human issue, not a political one. It shouldn't be an us vs. them conversation (neither should political conversations but that's another convo all together)

And the reality is, some people who claim that something is intolerant are wrong. Yes there are people from all backgrounds who claim that people from other backgrounds are intolerant but not all of them are using the word correctly. Having a different opinion from someone else is not intolerant. Hating someone for having a different opinion is intolerant. The only thing that it is acceptable to be intolerant of is intolerance itself.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 06:42:46 PM by TAMU Eagle »
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #257 on: September 08, 2019, 06:41:54 PM »

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

How exactly is this helpful?
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #258 on: September 08, 2019, 06:49:17 PM »
How exactly is this helpful?

What makes you think I'm trying to be helpful?
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forgetful

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #259 on: September 08, 2019, 07:16:12 PM »
Thank you for making my point.

1. I sleep peacefully

2. Re human rights, I'm probably in total (or near total) agreement with your views.

3. But I don't judge as "evil" or name call those who might disagree with me (on say religious grounds)  I leave that to the bigots.

4. But whatever helps you sleep at night.

Of course not. No legitimate religion supports white supremacy.

Serious question. I'm trying to reconcile the above statement and 3 above. Do you consider white supremacists evil? My guess, is yes.

The reason I ask, is that I think your stance and others in this thread are insanely close. There are likely a few fringe cases you and them would disagree on, but in general agree.

It seems too often people agree on 95% of a subject, but vehemently fight over the remaining 5% (myself included), and then we accomplish nothing.


Lennys Tap

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #260 on: September 08, 2019, 07:30:46 PM »
Serious question. I'm trying to reconcile the above statement and 3 above. Do you consider white supremacists evil? My guess, is yes.

The reason I ask, is that I think your stance and others in this thread are insanely close. There are likely a few fringe cases you and them would disagree on, but in general agree.

It seems too often people agree on 95% of a subject, but vehemently fight over the remaining 5% (myself included), and then we accomplish nothing.

Forgetful. I think you nailed it on all accounts. Arguing over the remaining 5% is a flaw of mine. I blame some of it on the Jesuits.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #261 on: September 08, 2019, 07:33:46 PM »
Lenny, didn't you just accuse me of putting people into groups? I haven't mentioned a single group in this conversation but here you are trying to put people on opposite sides of a war. This is a human issue, not a political one. It shouldn't be an us vs. them conversation (neither should political conversations but that's another convo all together)

And the reality is, some people who claim that something is intolerant are wrong. Yes there are people from all backgrounds who claim that people from other backgrounds are intolerant but not all of them are using the word correctly. Having a different opinion from someone else is not intolerant. Hating someone for having a different opinion is intolerant. The only thing that it is acceptable to be intolerant of is intolerance itself.

I give, TAMU. You're a good guy, and forgetful makes a good point that much of this is arguing on the margins.

rocket surgeon

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #262 on: September 08, 2019, 08:13:47 PM »


   "with all due respect" or "I'm not a racist but..." that are commonly used by people to give themselves permission to say something that they know they maybe shouldn't say

bro tamu-
  not necessarily.   the 2 phrases or prefaces are not similar and therefore bad examples to commingle.  "with all due respect" means what it says except when something like "you suck" follows.  that would be totally disingenuous and obviously so.  the "i'm not a racist but" is probably preparing one for a racist comment to follow and will be self evident.  that would probably fit your description, in and of itself.

as for being offended not being a choice-sorry, there are many who will find offense in everything a person whom they dislike says or does but when that same person hears the same thing from one who wears the same jersey, you won't see all the blood vessels popping in their foreheads and eye balls...with all due respect of course ;)   
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Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #263 on: September 08, 2019, 08:32:13 PM »
Forgetful. I think you nailed it on all accounts. Arguing over the remaining 5% is a flaw of mine. I blame some of it on the Jesuits.

LOL.  This is the Lenny I have a man crush on. 
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

rocket surgeon

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #264 on: September 08, 2019, 11:14:39 PM »
LOL.  This is the Lenny I have a man crush on.

lenny is a hottie  :-*
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TheyWereCones

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #265 on: September 09, 2019, 04:24:41 AM »
How? I think we can choose how we act on our feelings but not on what our initial feelings are.

In all respect (I do appreciate a lot of your basketball insight), are you honestly saying that you have no control over your feelings?
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brewcity77

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #266 on: September 09, 2019, 06:51:20 AM »
In all respect (I do appreciate a lot of your basketball insight), are you honestly saying that you have no control over your feelings?

No, that's not what he's saying at all. What he's saying is that if someone called another person a "jerk," that would likely be taken as offensive. The person being called a jerk can control their reaction (getting mad, punching the other person, doing nothing) but that doesn't change the offense felt.

I use jerk because it's fairly mundane, but you can replace it with any other disparaging term, whether sexual, racial, ethnic, religious, or otherwise. And you can replace it with any degree, from something meant as a joke up to a phrase said in anger. You can also replace it with something intended to be offensive and something that is ignorantly offensive.

If someone says something the other party is taken offensively, it's taken offensively. That doesn't mean an immediate adverse reaction, or any reaction at all, but there's still the "I'm uncomfortable with what they said" factor even if no outward reaction is shown.
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MU82

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #267 on: September 09, 2019, 07:51:07 AM »
No, that's not what he's saying at all. What he's saying is that if someone called another person a "jerk," that would likely be taken as offensive. The person being called a jerk can control their reaction (getting mad, punching the other person, doing nothing) but that doesn't change the offense felt.

I use jerk because it's fairly mundane, but you can replace it with any other disparaging term, whether sexual, racial, ethnic, religious, or otherwise. And you can replace it with any degree, from something meant as a joke up to a phrase said in anger. You can also replace it with something intended to be offensive and something that is ignorantly offensive.

If someone says something the other party is taken offensively, it's taken offensively. That doesn't mean an immediate adverse reaction, or any reaction at all, but there's still the "I'm uncomfortable with what they said" factor even if no outward reaction is shown.

This.

My father-in-law is 93. He makes offensive remarks all the time. He still calls blacks "coloreds." But I seriously believe he is not racist -- just extremely ignorant and unintelligent. I truly believe he doesn't mean to offend when he said last year after some friends visited us from Chicago: "I like your friends, the colored ones."

Obviously, if he had said that within earshot of our friends, they almost surely would have been offended. Hell, I was offended, and I responded curtly: "What color were they, dad?" I then dropped it because I realize he really didn't intend it as an insult.

So would our friends -- or any other black people -- have been "right" to be offended by that? Or because my FIL's intent was not racist, would they have been "wrong" to be offended? Does my FIL or anybody else have the right to tell our friends whether or not they are allowed to be offended?
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Jon

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #268 on: September 09, 2019, 09:47:04 AM »
This.

My father-in-law is 93. He makes offensive remarks all the time. He still calls blacks "coloreds." But I seriously believe he is not racist -- just extremely ignorant and unintelligent. I truly believe he doesn't mean to offend when he said last year after some friends visited us from Chicago: "I like your friends, the colored ones."

Obviously, if he had said that within earshot of our friends, they almost surely would have been offended. Hell, I was offended, and I responded curtly: "What color were they, dad?" I then dropped it because I realize he really didn't intend it as an insult.

So would our friends -- or any other black people -- have been "right" to be offended by that? Or because my FIL's intent was not racist, would they have been "wrong" to be offended? Does my FIL or anybody else have the right to tell our friends whether or not they are allowed to be offended?

So when members of a community express disgust and loathing for how they are portrayed in cinema is it still acceptable to laud the movie The Searchers as great art?

Natives, actually white people in ochre grease paint, are depicted as immoral, bloodthirsty savages lacking sophistication, depth, or dignity.

Isn't this racially offensive?

TheyWereCones

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #269 on: September 09, 2019, 10:13:27 AM »
No, that's not what he's saying at all. What he's saying is that if someone called another person a "jerk," that would likely be taken as offensive. The person being called a jerk can control their reaction (getting mad, punching the other person, doing nothing) but that doesn't change the offense felt.

I use jerk because it's fairly mundane, but you can replace it with any other disparaging term, whether sexual, racial, ethnic, religious, or otherwise. And you can replace it with any degree, from something meant as a joke up to a phrase said in anger. You can also replace it with something intended to be offensive and something that is ignorantly offensive.

If someone says something the other party is taken offensively, it's taken offensively. That doesn't mean an immediate adverse reaction, or any reaction at all, but there's still the "I'm uncomfortable with what they said" factor even if no outward reaction is shown.

Unreal.

TAMU - "I think we can choose how we act on our feelings but not on what our initial feelings are."

Me - "Are you honestly saying that you have no control over your feelings?"

Brew - "No, that's not what he's saying at all..."

I literary repeated what he said in the form of a question to confirm he really felt that way and somehow I'm way off on my interpretation?  The question here, to clarify again, is do you truly believe that you have no choice/control over your feelings?  If you are offended, you had no choice but to feel that way?
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Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #270 on: September 09, 2019, 10:24:30 AM »
So when members of a community express disgust and loathing for how they are portrayed in cinema is it still acceptable to laud the movie The Searchers as great art?

Natives, actually white people in ochre grease paint, are depicted as immoral, bloodthirsty savages lacking sophistication, depth, or dignity.

Isn't this racially offensive?

Someone gets to define what is offensive be and what is not, and that’s the problem in my view....especially when one ideology is doing and painting those they don’t agree with and labeling as such.  If most Native americans say Redskin isn’t offensive, but a bunch of other NON Native Americans dismiss this, become sanctimonious and actually tell Native Americans what THEY should be offended by.......incredible.   And that is just one of so many examples.  It’s almost as if they are saying these people aren’t smart enough to know what they should be offended by, so we in our elite bubble will decide for you.  Truly incredible.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #271 on: September 09, 2019, 10:28:16 AM »
Someone gets to define what is offensive be and what is not, and that’s the problem in my view....especially when one ideology is doing and painting those they don’t agree with and labeling as such.  If most Native americans say Redskin isn’t offensive, but a bunch of other NON Native Americans dismiss this, become sanctimonious and actually tell Native Americans what THEY should be offended by.......incredible.   And that is just one of so many examples.  It’s almost as if they are saying these people aren’t smart enough to know what they should be offended by, so we in our elite bubble will decide for you.  Truly incredible.


If a Native American isn't offended by the term Redskin, that's fine.  OTOH, you don't have to be Native American to be offended by the term Redskin.
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brewcity77

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #272 on: September 09, 2019, 10:29:38 AM »
I literary repeated what he said in the form of a question to confirm he really felt that way and somehow I'm way off on my interpretation?  The question here, to clarify again, is do you truly believe that you have no choice/control over your feelings?  If you are offended, you had no choice but to feel that way?

If you weren't being deliberately obtuse and reading the thread and TAMU's comments in their entirety, maybe you wouldn't be so confused by something that is painfully, blatantly obvious. Staggeringly so. He also wrote this:

Being offended isn't a choice. It's a reaction. We can choose how we act on that reaction, but not the reaction itself.

TAMU has clarified the line between initial reaction and how one acts on that reaction. I expounded on that. The only thing "unreal" is your inability to comprehend the written word.
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Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #273 on: September 09, 2019, 10:32:24 AM »
In all respect (I do appreciate a lot of your basketball insight), are you honestly saying that you have no control over your feelings?

You have no control over your feelings.
You only have control over how you respond, internally and externally, to your feelings.

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #274 on: September 09, 2019, 11:19:50 AM »
You have no control over your feelings.
You only have control over how you respond, internally and externally, to your feelings.

I don't believe this to be true...otherwise we have no hope as a society to become more tolerant (which we have)