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Author Topic: Well that was a waste  (Read 206330 times)

Lennys Tap

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #225 on: September 07, 2019, 01:44:22 PM »
Lecturing, ugh is that my reputation here? Need to add some more memes in my power point slides.

I understand what you are saying but I think you missed the point of what I was insisting on in the past. When someone tells you that you offended them, you offended them. Own it. You don't get to decide when someone else is offended. It's not that if one person finds something offensive then that thing is offensive. It is that it is offensive to that one person.

But that doesn't mean you can't have a different interpretation. It also doesn't mean that you can't stand by what you said before in spite of the offense given.

I am well aware that some people are offended when I use the term privilege. I own it. I am also okay with it. I won't tell them that they don't have a right to be offended or get defensive with them. I'll acknowledge that I gave offense and depending on the context of the conversation, I may continue to give offense.

I also think there is a difference between being offended and being uncomfortable. It's a check I have to do with myself constantly. Sometimes my gut reaction to something is anger or offense but if I take a breath and think about it, I realize I'm actually reacting out of discomfort. That's a me problem not an other person problem.

TAMU

So I say or do something with no intent to offend. You take offense. As long as I acknowledge your "right" to be offended, I can say I think you're full of it and are misinterpreting my words or actions. And continue to do and say what I think is not offensive with a clear conscience.

Not so different from when I was young. Usually a "No offense intended" was met with a "None taken". Occasionally not, in which case the unintended offender's reply was something along the lines of "Tough shyte" or "Too bad".

I'm OK with either.

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #226 on: September 07, 2019, 02:04:50 PM »
TAMU

So I say or do something with no intent to offend. You take offense. As long as I acknowledge your "right" to be offended, I can say I think you're full of it and are misinterpreting my words or actions. And continue to do and say what I think is not offensive with a clear conscience.

Not so different from when I was young. Usually a "No offense intended" was met with a "None taken". Occasionally not, in which case the unintended offender's reply was something along the lines of "Tough shyte" or "Too bad".

I'm OK with either.

Yup...that’s how it was and it was better...people communicated more directly....everyone on egg shells today.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #227 on: September 07, 2019, 04:41:13 PM »
TAMU

So I say or do something with no intent to offend. You take offense. As long as I acknowledge your "right" to be offended, I can say I think you're full of it and are misinterpreting my words or actions. And continue to do and say what I think is not offensive with a clear conscience.

Not so different from when I was young. Usually a "No offense intended" was met with a "None taken". Occasionally not, in which case the unintended offender's reply was something along the lines of "Tough shyte" or "Too bad".

I'm OK with either.

Not just acknowledge their right to be offended, but the fact that you offended them. And sure, you can tell them tough shyte if you want, that's your right. But they have the right to think your an a$$hole or a bigot in return. If your comfortable with that, by all means. I would suggest taking some time to actually reflect on why the other person is offended and try to see things from their perspective.

You'll notice, I haven't actually called anyone in this conversation privileged. It's intentional because I know doing that offends some people and that just derails what has the potential to be a good conversation. But I'm not going to not talk about privilege and pretend like it doesn't exist.There is a difference between calling someone something that offends them and talking about a topic that makes people uncomfortable.
TAMU

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real chili 83

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #228 on: September 07, 2019, 05:00:41 PM »
Yup...that’s how it was and it was better...people communicated more directly....everyone on egg shells today.

Holy sh1t, Lenny and Chico’s agree on something. 😱😱😱

What’s next?  Cats and dogs cohabiting, Domers stop picking their nose, whirled peas??? 

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #229 on: September 07, 2019, 05:12:01 PM »
Holy sh1t, Lenny and Chico’s agree on something. 😱😱😱

What’s next?  Cats and dogs cohabiting, Domers stop picking their nose, whirled peas???

We agree on quite a lot actually.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

tower912

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #230 on: September 07, 2019, 05:17:55 PM »
Yes, you are free to say what you want.    But others are free to judge you through the prism of their life experiences regardless of your intent.     In your head and heart, it may not be offensive.   But others are free to judge you based on their standards and may find what is innocuous to you incredibly offensive.    Which is their right.     Lenny, you judge Chico's by his words, right?    And what is perfectly logical to him is frequently offensive to you.     You have the right to judge him from his words as odious if you wish.   But others have the same right toward you.     You have your intent, just as he has his.   
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 05:20:12 PM by tower912 »
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #231 on: September 07, 2019, 07:27:18 PM »
Yes, you are free to say what you want.    But others are free to judge you through the prism of their life experiences regardless of your intent.     In your head and heart, it may not be offensive.   But others are free to judge you based on their standards and may find what is innocuous to you incredibly offensive.    Which is their right.     Lenny, you judge Chico's by his words, right?    And what is perfectly logical to him is frequently offensive to you.     You have the right to judge him from his words as odious if you wish.   But others have the same right toward you.     You have your intent, just as he has his.

Also agree with this.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Herman Cain

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #232 on: September 07, 2019, 09:28:49 PM »
Here is my comment to the crowd screaming privilege any chance they get:


You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

— Exodus 20:17
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 10:09:36 PM by Herman Cain »
Winning is overrated. The only time it is really important is in surgery and war.
                       ---Al McGuire

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #233 on: September 07, 2019, 10:18:19 PM »
What does coveting have to do with acknowledging privilege?
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Uncle Rico

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #234 on: September 07, 2019, 10:22:14 PM »
What does coveting have to do with acknowledging privilege?

Nothing
“This is bar none atrocious.  Mitchell cannot shoot either.  What a pile of dung”

Lennys Tap

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #235 on: September 07, 2019, 10:36:56 PM »
Not just acknowledge their right to be offended, but the fact that you offended them. And sure, you can tell them tough shyte if you want, that's your right. But they have the right to think your an a$$hole or a bigot in return. If your comfortable with that, by all means. I would suggest taking some time to actually reflect on why the other person is offended and try to see things from their perspective.

So I'll agree with you on reflecting on why the other person is offended and considers me an a$$hole or a bigot. But upon reflection if I think they're the ones committing an act of aggression against me (calling me an a$$hole and a bigot for no good reason) then I guess I can consider them a$$holes and bigots.

I don't know. Seems to me "No offense intended", "None taken" might work a little better than everyone ending up thinking the other guy is an a$$hole and/or a bigot.

Marcus92

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #236 on: September 07, 2019, 10:44:20 PM »
Opportunity, determination, hard work and achievement are all part of the core of America, more so here than anywhere else in the world.

But opportunity calls for a level playing field. In a country founded on the idea that all are created equal, we should always be looking for ways to ensure everyone has the same opportunities -- whether you're talking about getting an education, finding a job, starting a business, owning a home, you name it.
"Let's get a green drink!" Famous last words

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #237 on: September 07, 2019, 11:05:22 PM »
So I'll agree with you on reflecting on why the other person is offended and considers me an a$$hole or a bigot. But upon reflection if I think they're the ones committing an act of aggression against me (calling me an a$$hole and a bigot for no good reason) then I guess I can consider them a$$holes and bigots.

I don't know. Seems to me "No offense intended", "None taken" might work a little better than everyone ending up thinking the other guy is an a$$hole and/or a bigot.

I think it's problematic if you think every conversation on a topic like this has to end with someone thinking someone is a bigot or an a$$hole. There is another option where the offending party stops, thinks about it, and thinks "I didn't intend it that way and I don't understand it, but I'm going to treat this person with respect anyway".

I also don't think "no offense" is the magic cure all that you seem to think it is. In my experience, it's rarely used as a genuine declaration of benign intent, and more often used as a justification for saying something they know is going to offend the other person.
TAMU

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Lennys Tap

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #238 on: September 07, 2019, 11:53:53 PM »
I think it's problematic if you think every conversation on a topic like this has to end with someone thinking someone is a bigot or an a$$hole. There is another option where the offending party stops, thinks about it, and thinks "I didn't intend it that way and I don't understand it, but I'm going to treat this person with respect anyway".

I also don't think "no offense" is the magic cure all that you seem to think it is. In my experience, it's rarely used as a genuine declaration of benign intent, and more often used as a justification for saying something they know is going to offend the other person.

Did I say "every" conversation?

But you yourself say you reserve the right to continue offending people even after learning that you're offending them. If that's your right, it's everyone's - not just those on your side of a disagreement. Seems to me that's a sure way to have almost any dispute end with finger pointing and name calling. And guess what? It's happening more than ever in 2019.

Did I say "magic cure"?

Sorry about your experience with the term "no offense" but perhaps it's because you're looking to take offense.

I don't think we should be casual about offending others. And I don't think we should be easily offended. Giving people we disagree with the benefit of the doubt re their intentions is, IMHO, abettor solution that everyone being offended by each other.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #239 on: September 08, 2019, 02:18:17 AM »
Did I say "every" conversation?

I took "everyone ending up think the other..." as meaning that everyone who participates in these conversation. I misunderstood what you were saying.

But you yourself say you reserve the right to continue offending people even after learning that you're offending them. If that's your right, it's everyone's - not just those on your side of a disagreement. Seems to me that's a sure way to have almost any dispute end with finger pointing and name calling. And guess what? It's happening more than ever in 2019.

Sure, everyone has that right. I never said that they should exercise that right every time or even often. I feel very comfortable offending someone who is triggered by the word privilege. I feel less comfortable continuing to offending someone who tells me that they are perceiving something I've said or done as racist or sexist or homophobic. I think most people would think similarly.

Did I say "magic cure"?

It certainly seemed like you were suggesting that if someone says no offense with their statement than the person receiving it shouldn't take any offense regardless of what the person says. That's what I meant by magic cure.

Sorry about your experience with the term "no offense" but perhaps it's because you're looking to take offense.

Ha! If you spoke to those who know me, you'd know that this doesn't describe me at all. Takes a lot to get me riled up. I just know that "no offense" is one of those phrases like "with all due respect" or "I'm not a racist but..." that are commonly used by people to give themselves permission to say something that they know they maybe shouldn't say.

I don't think we should be casual about offending others. And I don't think we should be easily offended. Giving people we disagree with the benefit of the doubt re their intentions is, IMHO, abettor solution that everyone being offended by each other.

What does intent have to do with it? You ever seen pulp fiction?

Quote
No, no, no. You can't promise something like that. I have no idea what you're gonna ask me. So you can go ahead and ask me what you're going to ask me, and my natural response could be to get offended! Then, through no fault of my own, I would have broken my promise.

Being offended isn't a choice. It's a reaction. We can choose how we act on that reaction, but not the reaction itself.

You seem to be suggesting that we would all be better if we just kept silent when something offended us. While picking your battles is an important skill, I've never known a problem to get better simply by ignoring that there's problem. If something offends us we should talk about it so it gets better in the future. The problem I most commonly see is that when someone chooses to break their silence, they are often dismissed as "looking to take offense" when actually it is something that they have given time and thought to and has been bothering them for awhile. I don't think the key is increasing silence, I think it is improving our willingness to listen.
TAMU

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real chili 83

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #240 on: September 08, 2019, 06:56:58 AM »
Always taking ownership for unintentionally offending someone is flawed.  Ever meet someone who is a solution, looking for a problem?  How about someone who is hopelessly negative. 

tower912

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #241 on: September 08, 2019, 07:49:29 AM »
Yes I have.  I usually end up looking at them , shaking my head, and saying 'you be you'.  I can't change them, but I can learn to work around them and maybe even find a use for their passion.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #242 on: September 08, 2019, 12:23:12 PM »
Always taking ownership for unintentionally offending someone is flawed.  Ever meet someone who is a solution, looking for a problem?  How about someone who is hopelessly negative.

You know what the easiest way to shut those people up are? Acknowledge their concern, take ownership, and then move on. It instantly takes any power away from their argument.

Also, in my experience, for every one person you are describing, there are many more that have legitimate concerns. We're not mind readers, I think it it is dangerous to dismiss what a person is saying just because we think they aren't being genuine.
TAMU

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Lennys Tap

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #243 on: September 08, 2019, 01:49:20 PM »
I feel very comfortable offending someone who is triggered by the word privilege. I feel less comfortable continuing to offending someone who tells me that they are perceiving something I've said or done as racist or sexist or homophobic. I think most people would think similarly.


So you're OK dividing people into groups and then choosing to purposely offend some (because they deserve it) and no questions asked defend others (because they deserve it). Sounds like a textbook definition of bigotry.


Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #244 on: September 08, 2019, 02:26:03 PM »
So you're OK dividing people into groups and then choosing to purposely offend some (because they deserve it) and no questions asked defend others (because they deserve it). Sounds like a textbook definition of bigotry.

Is all bigotry is bad?
I'll admit, I'm terribly bigoted toward white supremacists, science deniers and all sorts of "truthers."
Should I stop that?

Just a thought ...  perhaps there's a difference between offending someone over who they are (gender, race, orientation, ethnicity, etc.) and offending someone over what they think and do. And when the "p-word" is used as a perjorative, it's typically not because the recipient is "p-worded" because that person is acting "p-worded."


TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #245 on: September 08, 2019, 02:40:29 PM »
So you're OK dividing people into groups and then choosing to purposely offend some (because they deserve it) and no questions asked defend others (because they deserve it). Sounds like a textbook definition of bigotry.

I think you should recheck the definition of the word bigotry. Bigotry requires intolerance. The only idea I am intolerant of is intolerance. So I guess I am bigoted against intolerant ideologies.

When I said I was "very comfortable offending someone who is triggered by the word privilege" I meant specifically talking about the concept of privilege with someone who is triggered by it. I'm not saying I am comfortable telling them that they are an idiot or an a$$hole....hell I haven't even called anyone here privileged. What I am comfortable with is having a good faith conversation about what privilege is and the impacts it has on our society. I don't think most reasonable people would consider that to be a form of bigotry, if you do, we'll just have to agree that we see it differently.

I also think you should reread the post you quoted. I never mentioned anything about any groups or putting people into groups. I believe you should take each individual as they come and be willing to listen to their perspective.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 02:43:41 PM by TAMU Eagle »
TAMU

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Uncle Rico

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #246 on: September 08, 2019, 02:53:06 PM »
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 02:57:49 PM by Uncle Rico »
“This is bar none atrocious.  Mitchell cannot shoot either.  What a pile of dung”

real chili 83

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #247 on: September 08, 2019, 03:22:22 PM »
You know what the easiest way to shut those people up are? Acknowledge their concern, take ownership, and then move on. It instantly takes any power away from their argument.

Also, in my experience, for every one person you are describing, there are many more that have legitimate concerns. We're not mind readers, I think it it is dangerous to dismiss what a person is saying just because we think they aren't being genuine.

You are trying too hard, my friend.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #248 on: September 08, 2019, 04:31:26 PM »
I think you should recheck the definition of the word bigotry. Bigotry requires intolerance. The only idea I am intolerant of is intolerance. So I guess I am bigoted against intolerant ideologies.


Guess what? Both sides in the "Intolerance War" think the other side is intolerant. Neither side is wrong.


The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #249 on: September 08, 2019, 04:36:00 PM »
Guess what? Both sides in the "Intolerance War" think the other side is intolerant. Neither side is wrong.


Whatever helps you sleep at night.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

 

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