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Author Topic: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"  (Read 7405 times)

MU82

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #225 on: September 16, 2019, 09:34:57 PM »
Lol.  Seek help....apparently a lobotomy is in order to remove my residency in your head.

Ignoring the lying troll.
“Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.”

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Cheeks

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #226 on: September 16, 2019, 11:04:09 PM »
”The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.”
― Thomas Jefferson

WhiteTrash

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #227 on: September 16, 2019, 11:18:48 PM »
And in my opinion, having actually worked in two major college athletic departments, the ncaa benefits most student athletes.

We will disagree on the purpose and I don’t think it is gullible.  What I think is gullible and flat out wrong is to continue to paint the entire ncaa based on two revenue sports....or worse, based on a subset of two revenue sports.  It’s as if everything else the ncaa does is forgotten or ignored for convenience because it doesn’t fit the meme.
Well said.

Reminds me of how the media tries to define the entire Catholic church based upon the hideous actions of a small percentage of priests. 

Cheeks

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #228 on: September 16, 2019, 11:28:42 PM »
Well said.

Reminds me of how the media tries to define the entire Catholic church based upon the hideous actions of a small percentage of priests.

Yup.  But that is how people are.  Ignore the missionary work, the educational system, the hospitals, charities, etc....none of that matters.   For the ncaa, even worse because quite frankly even if you think these kids should be compensated, the ncaa provides them enormous value simply by providing a platform for which these kids can even make the compensation claim to begin with.  These kids didn’t build Michigan Stadium, or FF, or the Marquette gym for that matter.....but they deserve a cut by golly..... :o
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 11:51:38 PM by Cheeks »
”The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.”
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Pakuni

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #229 on: September 16, 2019, 11:37:47 PM »
And in my opinion, having actually worked in two major college athletic departments, the ncaa benefits most student athletes.

We will disagree on the purpose and I don’t think it is gullible.  What I think is gullible and flat out wrong is to continue to paint the entire ncaa based on two revenue sports....or worse, based on a subset of two revenue sports.  It’s as if everything else the ncaa does is forgotten or ignored for convenience because it doesn’t fit the meme.

You continue to excel at inserting no one made and then shooting them down.
No one had said college sports doesn't benefit most of its participants. No one has said has said the entire NCAA is based on two revenue sports.

But any benefit derived by participants is secondary to the NCAA's intent, not the primary purpose. Like my Walmart analogy, it's true that some people benefit by working for Walmart. But Walmart doesn't exist to benefit those people. It exists to make money for its owners. Likewise, some athletes benefit by playing NCAA sports. But the NCAA doesn't exist to help those athletes. It exists to make money for its members.

And while no one has said the NCAA is solely football and men's hoops, those two sports certainly are the primary drivers of NCAA revenue and, I would bet the farm, the primary beneficiary of expenditures. So it's misleading to insinuate that the NCAA is about field hockey and D3 softball as much as it is about football and basketball.

79Warrior

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #230 on: September 16, 2019, 11:44:11 PM »
You continue to excel at inserting no one made and then shooting them down.
No one had said college sports doesn't benefit most of its participants. No one has said has said the entire NCAA is based on two revenue sports.

But any benefit derived by participants is secondary to the NCAA's intent, not the primary purpose. Like my Walmart analogy, it's true that some people benefit by working for Walmart. But Walmart doesn't exist to benefit those people. It exists to make money for its owners. Likewise, some athletes benefit by playing NCAA sports. But the NCAA doesn't exist to help those athletes. It exists to make money for its members.

And while no one has said the NCAA is solely football and men's hoops, those two sports certainly are the primary drivers of NCAA revenue and, I would bet the farm, the primary beneficiary of expenditures. So it's misleading to insinuate that the NCAA is about field hockey and D3 softball as much as it is about football and basketball.

Well said

Cheeks

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #231 on: September 16, 2019, 11:56:17 PM »
You continue to excel at inserting no one made and then shooting them down.
No one had said college sports doesn't benefit most of its participants. No one has said has said the entire NCAA is based on two revenue sports.

But any benefit derived by participants is secondary to the NCAA's intent, not the primary purpose. Like my Walmart analogy, it's true that some people benefit by working for Walmart. But Walmart doesn't exist to benefit those people. It exists to make money for its owners. Likewise, some athletes benefit by playing NCAA sports. But the NCAA doesn't exist to help those athletes. It exists to make money for its members.

And while no one has said the NCAA is solely football and men's hoops, those two sports certainly are the primary drivers of NCAA revenue and, I would bet the farm, the primary beneficiary of expenditures. So it's misleading to insinuate that the NCAA is about field hockey and D3 softball as much as it is about football and basketball.

Your Walmart analogy is so absurd of a comparison it is troubling.  Absolutely troubling and I don’t see how you get there at all...it is that bad.  Walmart is a for profit corporation with that as its primary goal.  The ncaa is not a for profit entity, it is not a corporation, it’s primary goal is not in any way, shape or form from its very origins to be anything of the kind.  The ncaa is a Rule making body, among other roles it serves.  If it was as you suggested in your absurd comparison, why is it that the rules force schools to have a min of 14 sports, over 90% that don’t make money? Your analogy, counselor, how is it in the ballpark?

All student athletes benefit from the ncaa, the issue is not that they do, but whether they do enough according to you.  Even in your wildest anti ncaa dreams, kids are being taught, they are given instruction, they are fed, clothed, provided a roof over their head....those are all benefits...and they are taxed on none of it.  Again, your Walmart example is simply not the same.


As for your “no one said claims”....also patently ridiculous.  Of course people have said it.  Here, elsewhere....the amount of people on this board that don’t even understand what the association is and it’s role, or MU’s membership within that association is troubling.

The nCAa benefits far far far far more athletes not playing football or basketball and it isn’t even in the ballpark for discussion.  In addition to the ncaa benefiting basketball and football players in any number of ways, the hundreds of thousands non-football and non-basketball players benefited by the ncaa, including softball, field hockey, etc, absolutely dwarfs those other two sports.  This is factually true and easily proven.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 01:54:27 AM by Cheeks »
”The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.”
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WhiteTrash

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #232 on: September 16, 2019, 11:58:12 PM »
But any benefit derived by participants is secondary to the NCAA's intent, not the primary purpose. Like my Walmart analogy, it's true that some people benefit by working for Walmart. But Walmart doesn't exist to benefit those people. It exists to make money for its owners. Likewise, some athletes benefit by playing NCAA sports. But the NCAA doesn't exist to help those athletes. It exists to make money for its members.
This is a good but not great analogy. Walmart has a responsibility to its shareholders to maximize profits and for its board or officers to do otherwise would be a dereliction of their fiduciary responsibilities. 
If the NCAA had the same responsibility to its members, it would be negligent in its responsibilities by not eliminating all non-revenue spots at all levels.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 06:53:53 AM by WhiteTrash »

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #233 on: September 17, 2019, 07:47:27 AM »
Well said.

Reminds me of how the media tries to define the entire Catholic church based upon the hideous actions of a small percentage of priests. 


The problem isn't just the "hideous actions of a small percentage of priests," it's how the nstitution systematically covered it up.  And how that cover up has lead people to distrust the Church and completely overshaddow the genuine good it has done.

So in many ways this is a perfect analogy to the NCAA.  An institution that can't get out of its own way and overvalues its process and rules.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

MU82

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #234 on: September 17, 2019, 08:23:47 AM »

The problem isn't just the "hideous actions of a small percentage of priests," it's how the nstitution systematically covered it up.  And how that cover up has lead people to distrust the Church and completely overshaddow the genuine good it has done.

So in many ways this is a perfect analogy to the NCAA.  An institution that can't get out of its own way and overvalues its process and rules.

This. Exactly.
“Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.”

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Pakuni

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #235 on: September 17, 2019, 08:25:10 AM »
This is a good but not great analogy. Walmart has a responsibility to its shareholders to maximize profits and for its board or officers to do otherwise would be a dereliction of their fiduciary responsibilities. 
If the NCAA had the same responsibility to its members, it would be negligent in its responsibilities by not eliminating all non-revenue spots at all levels.

1. Title IX.
2. Again, no one is saying enriching its members is the only purpose of the NCAA.

Pakuni

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #236 on: September 17, 2019, 09:15:29 AM »
Your Walmart analogy is so absurd of a comparison it is troubling.  Absolutely troubling and I don’t see how you get there at all...it is that bad.  Walmart is a for profit corporation with that as its primary goal.  The ncaa is not a for profit entity, it is not a corporation,

An analogy is not a simile.

Cheeks

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #237 on: September 17, 2019, 09:20:06 AM »

The problem isn't just the "hideous actions of a small percentage of priests," it's how the nstitution systematically covered it up.  And how that cover up has lead people to distrust the Church and completely overshaddow the genuine good it has done.

So in many ways this is a perfect analogy to the NCAA.  An institution that can't get out of its own way and overvalues its process and rules.

Are you describing gov't Sultan or something else?
”The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.”
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Cheeks

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #238 on: September 17, 2019, 09:21:23 AM »
1. Title IX.
2. Again, no one is saying enriching its members is the only purpose of the NCAA.

No one?  Oh really....I'll give  you a day to retract and correct that....I'll give you a few hints, there are people on this board in just the last 15 days that have said it serves only one purpose, which is to do what you just said they don't say.    But yeah..."no one"
”The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.”
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Cheeks

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #239 on: September 17, 2019, 09:22:19 AM »
An analogy is not a simile.

An analogy should also have at least a few kernels of relative comparison, yours does not.....other than human beings are involved in both Walmart and the NCAA.
”The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.”
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forgetful

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #240 on: September 17, 2019, 09:23:38 AM »
An analogy is not a simile.

It's still a terrible analogy. The two are not similar in significant respects.

There was a statement that the NCAA's purpose is to enrich its members. That is false. It is an opinion of some people, but it is not a statement of fact.

Similarly the Catholic Church analogy is horrendous. The NCAA isn't covering anything up. They may do a piss poor job of investigation/enforcement, but that is more because they have little to no actual legal recourse.

Several on here are going to absurd arguments because of an implicit bias against the NCAA. It's fine to hate the NCAA, but no one is helping their stance when they make absurd claims.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #241 on: September 17, 2019, 09:26:04 AM »
Your Walmart analogy is so absurd of a comparison it is troubling.  Absolutely troubling and I don’t see how you get there at all...it is that bad.  Walmart is a for profit corporation with that as its primary goal.  The ncaa is not a for profit entity, it is not a corporation, it’s primary goal is not in any way, shape or form from its very origins to be anything of the kind.


The NCAA is a not-for-profit entity because it is a membership organization that passes along profits to it members.  Not because it engages in an altruistic function.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #242 on: September 17, 2019, 09:30:00 AM »
It's still a terrible analogy. The two are not similar in significant respects.

There was a statement that the NCAA's purpose is to enrich its members. That is false. It is an opinion of some people, but it is not a statement of fact.


So how can it be false if it's an opinion?  There is no certain truth that it's primary purpose isn't to enrich its members.  (And yes the Catholic Church analogy is very much a stretch - one that White Trash and Cheeks brought up to actually defend in the NCAA.  Which is someone laughtable.)
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

forgetful

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #243 on: September 17, 2019, 09:34:11 AM »

So how can it be false if it's an opinion?  There is no certain truth that it's primary purpose isn't to enrich its members.  (And yes the Catholic Church analogy is very much a stretch - one that White Trash and Cheeks brought up to actually defend in the NCAA.  Which is someone laughtable.)

When it was used in an analogy (to justify it as a good analogy), it is being used as a statement of fact. That is false, it is an opinion.

An opinion being a central element of an analogy, makes it a poor analogy.

Pakuni

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #244 on: September 17, 2019, 10:13:43 AM »
It's still a terrible analogy. The two are not similar in significant respects.

It's not, and the NCAA does not have to be the same as Walmart for the analogy to hold. You're just not understanding what an analogy is and how one works.

As for the rest of your post, the argument that one should discount anti-NCAA arguments because they come from people who don't like the NCAA is very bad. Who else is going to make anti-NCAA arguments, exactly? Not the people who carry its water here and elsewhere.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 10:16:05 AM by Pakuni »

WhiteTrash

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #245 on: September 17, 2019, 10:18:59 AM »

So how can it be false if it's an opinion?  There is no certain truth that it's primary purpose isn't to enrich its members.  (And yes the Catholic Church analogy is very much a stretch - one that White Trash and Cheeks brought up to actually defend in the NCAA.  Which is someone laughtable.)
You need to reread the context of the Catholic Church analogy. It was in no way, shape or form intended to defend the NCAA.

I welcome comments or criticisms of my positions (I can be wrong often), but labeling my position as 'laughable' for something I did not even come close to saying is hard to swallow.

WhiteTrash

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #246 on: September 17, 2019, 10:27:59 AM »
1. Title IX.
2. Again, no one is saying enriching its members is the only purpose of the NCAA.
1. This does not address the NCAA's continued support of non-revenue men's sports.
2. I said it a good not great analogy. A publicly traded for-profit company must maximize its profits. The NCAA by is very nature and mission does not.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #247 on: September 17, 2019, 10:32:16 AM »
You need to reread the context of the Catholic Church analogy. It was in no way, shape or form intended to defend the NCAA.

I welcome comments or criticisms of my positions (I can be wrong often), but labeling my position as 'laughable' for something I did not even come close to saying is hard to swallow.


You are correct that my statement was a little harsh.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

WhiteTrash

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #248 on: September 17, 2019, 10:35:50 AM »

You are correct that my statement was a little harsh.
It's cool. These threads get a bit overwhelming with all the posts. Totally understandable. Thanks for acknowledging it.


Pakuni

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Re: New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"
« Reply #249 on: September 17, 2019, 10:37:32 AM »
1. This does not address the NCAA's continued support of non-revenue men's sports.
2. I said it a good not great analogy. A publicly traded for-profit company must maximize its profits. The NCAA by is very nature and mission does not.

This is why it's an analogy not a simile. I'm not arguing the NCAA = Walmart.
And this really need not devolve into a pedantic debate over literary devices.