New NCAA policy regarding agents & "testing the waters"

[MU82]

Lol.  Seek help....apparently a lobotomy is in order to remove my residency in your head.

Ignoring the lying troll.

[Cheeks]

Ignoring the lying troll.

[WhiteTrash]

And in my opinion, having actually worked in two major college athletic departments, the ncaa benefits most student athletes.

We will disagree on the purpose and I don't think it is gullible.  What I think is gullible and flat out wrong is to continue to paint the entire ncaa based on two revenue sports....or worse, based on a subset of two revenue sports.  It's as if everything else the ncaa does is forgotten or ignored for convenience because it doesn't fit the meme.

Well said.

Reminds me of how the media tries to define the entire Catholic church based upon the hideous actions of a small percentage of priests. 

[Cheeks]

Well said.

Reminds me of how the media tries to define the entire Catholic church based upon the hideous actions of a small percentage of priests.

Yup.  But that is how people are.  Ignore the missionary work, the educational system, the hospitals, charities, etc....none of that matters.   For the ncaa, even worse because quite frankly even if you think these kids should be compensated, the ncaa provides them enormous value simply by providing a platform for which these kids can even make the compensation claim to begin with.  These kids didn't build Michigan Stadium, or FF, or the Marquette gym for that matter.....but they deserve a cut by golly.....

[Pakuni]

And in my opinion, having actually worked in two major college athletic departments, the ncaa benefits most student athletes.

We will disagree on the purpose and I don't think it is gullible.  What I think is gullible and flat out wrong is to continue to paint the entire ncaa based on two revenue sports....or worse, based on a subset of two revenue sports.  It's as if everything else the ncaa does is forgotten or ignored for convenience because it doesn't fit the meme.

You continue to excel at inserting no one made and then shooting them down.
No one had said college sports doesn't benefit most of its participants. No one has said has said the entire NCAA is based on two revenue sports.

But any benefit derived by participants is secondary to the NCAA's intent, not the primary purpose. Like my Walmart analogy, it's true that some people benefit by working for Walmart. But Walmart doesn't exist to benefit those people. It exists to make money for its owners. Likewise, some athletes benefit by playing NCAA sports. But the NCAA doesn't exist to help those athletes. It exists to make money for its members.

And while no one has said the NCAA is solely football and men's hoops, those two sports certainly are the primary drivers of NCAA revenue and, I would bet the farm, the primary beneficiary of expenditures. So it's misleading to insinuate that the NCAA is about field hockey and D3 softball as much as it is about football and basketball.

[79Warrior]

You continue to excel at inserting no one made and then shooting them down.
No one had said college sports doesn't benefit most of its participants. No one has said has said the entire NCAA is based on two revenue sports.

But any benefit derived by participants is secondary to the NCAA's intent, not the primary purpose. Like my Walmart analogy, it's true that some people benefit by working for Walmart. But Walmart doesn't exist to benefit those people. It exists to make money for its owners. Likewise, some athletes benefit by playing NCAA sports. But the NCAA doesn't exist to help those athletes. It exists to make money for its members.

And while no one has said the NCAA is solely football and men's hoops, those two sports certainly are the primary drivers of NCAA revenue and, I would bet the farm, the primary beneficiary of expenditures. So it's misleading to insinuate that the NCAA is about field hockey and D3 softball as much as it is about football and basketball.

Well said

[Cheeks]

You continue to excel at inserting no one made and then shooting them down.
No one had said college sports doesn't benefit most of its participants. No one has said has said the entire NCAA is based on two revenue sports.

But any benefit derived by participants is secondary to the NCAA's intent, not the primary purpose. Like my Walmart analogy, it's true that some people benefit by working for Walmart. But Walmart doesn't exist to benefit those people. It exists to make money for its owners. Likewise, some athletes benefit by playing NCAA sports. But the NCAA doesn't exist to help those athletes. It exists to make money for its members.

And while no one has said the NCAA is solely football and men's hoops, those two sports certainly are the primary drivers of NCAA revenue and, I would bet the farm, the primary beneficiary of expenditures. So it's misleading to insinuate that the NCAA is about field hockey and D3 softball as much as it is about football and basketball.

Your Walmart analogy is so absurd of a comparison it is troubling.  Absolutely troubling and I don't see how you get there at all...it is that bad.  Walmart is a for profit corporation with that as its primary goal.  The ncaa is not a for profit entity, it is not a corporation, it's primary goal is not in any way, shape or form from its very origins to be anything of the kind.  The ncaa is a Rule making body, among other roles it serves.  If it was as you suggested in your absurd comparison, why is it that the rules force schools to have a min of 14 sports, over 90% that don't make money? Your analogy, counselor, how is it in the ballpark?

All student athletes benefit from the ncaa, the issue is not that they do, but whether they do enough according to you.  Even in your wildest anti ncaa dreams, kids are being taught, they are given instruction, they are fed, clothed, provided a roof over their head....those are all benefits...and they are taxed on none of it.  Again, your Walmart example is simply not the same.


As for your "no one said claims"....also patently ridiculous.  Of course people have said it.  Here, elsewhere....the amount of people on this board that don't even understand what the association is and it's role, or MU's membership within that association is troubling.

The nCAa benefits far far far far more athletes not playing football or basketball and it isn't even in the ballpark for discussion.  In addition to the ncaa benefiting basketball and football players in any number of ways, the hundreds of thousands non-football and non-basketball players benefited by the ncaa, including softball, field hockey, etc, absolutely dwarfs those other two sports.  This is factually true and easily proven.

[WhiteTrash]

But any benefit derived by participants is secondary to the NCAA's intent, not the primary purpose. Like my Walmart analogy, it's true that some people benefit by working for Walmart. But Walmart doesn't exist to benefit those people. It exists to make money for its owners. Likewise, some athletes benefit by playing NCAA sports. But the NCAA doesn't exist to help those athletes. It exists to make money for its members.

This is a good but not great analogy. Walmart has a responsibility to its shareholders to maximize profits and for its board or officers to do otherwise would be a dereliction of their fiduciary responsibilities. 
If the NCAA had the same responsibility to its members, it would be negligent in its responsibilities by not eliminating all non-revenue spots at all levels.

[The Sultan]

Well said.

Reminds me of how the media tries to define the entire Catholic church based upon the hideous actions of a small percentage of priests. 

The problem isn't just the "hideous actions of a small percentage of priests," it's how the nstitution systematically covered it up.  And how that cover up has lead people to distrust the Church and completely overshaddow the genuine good it has done.

So in many ways this is a perfect analogy to the NCAA.  An institution that can't get out of its own way and overvalues its process and rules.

[MU82]

The problem isn't just the "hideous actions of a small percentage of priests," it's how the nstitution systematically covered it up.  And how that cover up has lead people to distrust the Church and completely overshaddow the genuine good it has done.

So in many ways this is a perfect analogy to the NCAA.  An institution that can't get out of its own way and overvalues its process and rules.

This. Exactly.

[Pakuni]

This is a good but not great analogy. Walmart has a responsibility to its shareholders to maximize profits and for its board or officers to do otherwise would be a dereliction of their fiduciary responsibilities. 
If the NCAA had the same responsibility to its members, it would be negligent in its responsibilities by not eliminating all non-revenue spots at all levels.

1. Title IX.
2. Again, no one is saying enriching its members is the only purpose of the NCAA.

[Pakuni]

Your Walmart analogy is so absurd of a comparison it is troubling.  Absolutely troubling and I don't see how you get there at all...it is that bad.  Walmart is a for profit corporation with that as its primary goal.  The ncaa is not a for profit entity, it is not a corporation,

An analogy is not a simile.

[Cheeks]

The problem isn't just the "hideous actions of a small percentage of priests," it's how the nstitution systematically covered it up.  And how that cover up has lead people to distrust the Church and completely overshaddow the genuine good it has done.

So in many ways this is a perfect analogy to the NCAA.  An institution that can't get out of its own way and overvalues its process and rules.

Are you describing gov't Sultan or something else?

[Cheeks]

1. Title IX.
2. Again, no one is saying enriching its members is the only purpose of the NCAA.

No one?  Oh really....I'll give  you a day to retract and correct that....I'll give you a few hints, there are people on this board in just the last 15 days that have said it serves only one purpose, which is to do what you just said they don't say.    But yeah..."no one"

[Cheeks]

An analogy is not a simile.

An analogy should also have at least a few kernels of relative comparison, yours does not.....other than human beings are involved in both Walmart and the NCAA.

[forgetful]

An analogy is not a simile.

It's still a terrible analogy. The two are not similar in significant respects.

There was a statement that the NCAA's purpose is to enrich its members. That is false. It is an opinion of some people, but it is not a statement of fact.

Similarly the Catholic Church analogy is horrendous. The NCAA isn't covering anything up. They may do a piss poor job of investigation/enforcement, but that is more because they have little to no actual legal recourse.

Several on here are going to absurd arguments because of an implicit bias against the NCAA. It's fine to hate the NCAA, but no one is helping their stance when they make absurd claims.

[The Sultan]

Your Walmart analogy is so absurd of a comparison it is troubling.  Absolutely troubling and I don't see how you get there at all...it is that bad.  Walmart is a for profit corporation with that as its primary goal.  The ncaa is not a for profit entity, it is not a corporation, it's primary goal is not in any way, shape or form from its very origins to be anything of the kind.

The NCAA is a not-for-profit entity because it is a membership organization that passes along profits to it members.  Not because it engages in an altruistic function.

[The Sultan]

It's still a terrible analogy. The two are not similar in significant respects.

There was a statement that the NCAA's purpose is to enrich its members. That is false. It is an opinion of some people, but it is not a statement of fact.

So how can it be false if it's an opinion?  There is no certain truth that it's primary purpose isn't to enrich its members.  (And yes the Catholic Church analogy is very much a stretch - one that White Trash and Cheeks brought up to actually defend in the NCAA.  Which is someone laughtable.)

[forgetful]

So how can it be false if it's an opinion?  There is no certain truth that it's primary purpose isn't to enrich its members.  (And yes the Catholic Church analogy is very much a stretch - one that White Trash and Cheeks brought up to actually defend in the NCAA.  Which is someone laughtable.)

When it was used in an analogy (to justify it as a good analogy), it is being used as a statement of fact. That is false, it is an opinion.

An opinion being a central element of an analogy, makes it a poor analogy.

[Pakuni]

It's still a terrible analogy. The two are not similar in significant respects.

It's not, and the NCAA does not have to be the same as Walmart for the analogy to hold. You're just not understanding what an analogy is and how one works.

As for the rest of your post, the argument that one should discount anti-NCAA arguments because they come from people who don't like the NCAA is very bad. Who else is going to make anti-NCAA arguments, exactly? Not the people who carry its water here and elsewhere.

[WhiteTrash]

So how can it be false if it's an opinion?  There is no certain truth that it's primary purpose isn't to enrich its members.  (And yes the Catholic Church analogy is very much a stretch - one that White Trash and Cheeks brought up to actually defend in the NCAA.  Which is someone laughtable.)

You need to reread the context of the Catholic Church analogy. It was in no way, shape or form intended to defend the NCAA.

I welcome comments or criticisms of my positions (I can be wrong often), but labeling my position as 'laughable' for something I did not even come close to saying is hard to swallow.

[WhiteTrash]

1. Title IX.
2. Again, no one is saying enriching its members is the only purpose of the NCAA.

1. This does not address the NCAA's continued support of non-revenue men's sports.
2. I said it a good not great analogy. A publicly traded for-profit company must maximize its profits. The NCAA by is very nature and mission does not.

[The Sultan]

You need to reread the context of the Catholic Church analogy. It was in no way, shape or form intended to defend the NCAA.

I welcome comments or criticisms of my positions (I can be wrong often), but labeling my position as 'laughable' for something I did not even come close to saying is hard to swallow.

You are correct that my statement was a little harsh.

[WhiteTrash]

You are correct that my statement was a little harsh.

It's cool. These threads get a bit overwhelming with all the posts. Totally understandable. Thanks for acknowledging it.

[Pakuni]

1. This does not address the NCAA's continued support of non-revenue men's sports.
2. I said it a good not great analogy. A publicly traded for-profit company must maximize its profits. The NCAA by is very nature and mission does not.

This is why it's an analogy not a simile. I'm not arguing the NCAA = Walmart.
And this really need not devolve into a pedantic debate over literary devices.